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In our Q&A: Eighth Amendment Referendum series, we are answering questions our readers have submitted in relation to the upcoming vote on 25 May.
THE QUESTION
A number of people have asked a version of these questions. Here are some of those queries:
THE ANSWER
THE IRISH CANCER Society (ICS) recommends that pregnancy during chemotherapy should be avoided ”in case the drugs harm your baby”.
The organisation notes that many doctors advise women to not get pregnant for two years after their chemotherapy ends as it can increase the risk of miscarriage or birth defects.
Of course, women may unintentionally become pregnant while receiving cancer treatment or shortly afterwards. Others may be diagnosed with cancer while already pregnant.
Pregnant women can receive cancer treatment but the type of treatment they receive will depend on a number of factors including:
Women may undergo chemotherapy (which usually won’t happen until at least the second trimester of the pregnancy), radiation, surgery or another form of treatment. The decision on the best approach to take is made on a case by case basis by a team of doctors, sometimes across more than one hospital.
A spokesperson for the Rotunda Hospital, one of Dublin’s maternity hospitals, noted that “a multi-disciplinary approach” is taken to cancer care during pregnancy.
The spokesperson told TheJournal.ie:
A multi-disciplinary group of obstetricians who are subspecialists in maternal medicine, meets regularly with various non-obstetric specialists, including oncologists, haematologists, paediatricians, radiologists, anaesthetists, pharmacists and surgeons.
They said the hospital would work with staff from the nearby Mater Hospital to provide care for a pregnant woman who is diagnosed with cancer.
“The patient’s clinical history, examination findings, obstetric ultrasound findings, imaging results and laboratory results are reviewed by the team and an individualised care plan is established, with chemotherapy or surgical plans put in place, together with an optimised time for delivery of the baby.
“The experience of this team to date has demonstrated excellent outcomes for both mothers and babies,” the spokesperson told us.
A spokesperson for the Coombe Women & Infants University Hospital said the organisation “doesn’t have specific advice for women diagnosed with cancer who are receiving treatment, or who are about to receive treatment, as no two cases are the same”.
They added that employees from the Coombe work with medical staff from the hospital which is treating the patient for cancer.
Advice
The ICS advises women who become pregnant to discuss all their options with their doctor.
“It may be possible to delay chemotherapy until later in your pregnancy or until your baby is born. In some cases, it is also possible to have chemotherapy and deliver a healthy baby. However, depending on your situation, you may not have a choice,” the organisation notes.
The National Health Service (NHS) in the UK also advises women to not become pregnant while undergoing cancer treatment as “chemotherapy drugs can damage an unborn child”.
“During treatment, and for about one year afterwards, sperm and eggs may not be formed normally, if they are produced at all. Your doctor will be happy to discuss this further with you…
If you know you are pregnant before starting treatment or become pregnant during treatment, you must tell your doctor immediately.
“We are aware that some women may be diagnosed with cancer during pregnancy. If you are in this situation, your specialist doctor will discuss with you the benefits and risks of having chemotherapy.”
‘Chilling effect’
A number of doctors who are in favour of repealing the Eighth Amendment have said it has a chilling effect on their work and can impact the type of treatment (not just for cancer) pregnant women receive.
The case of Michelle Harte, a woman with cancer who had to travel to the UK for a termination in 2010, has come back into the spotlight in recent weeks. She had wanted to undergo a clinical trial but couldn’t due to her pregnancy.
Doctors at Cork University Hospital had advised her to terminate the pregnancy but were unable to do so as there was no ‘immediate’ risk to her life. She received substantial compensation from the State shortly before her death in November 2011.
Medical trials may be an option for people whose cancer can’t be successfully treated by other forms of care. However, they generally stipulate that pregnant women cannot take part due to the increased risk involved.
Professor Louise Kenny, who was involved in Harte’s care, said the type of treatment women receive while pregnant is impacted by the Eighth Amendment.
“There are some exceptionally skilled clinicians in this country, some of the best midwives and obstetricians I’ve ever worked with, and I’ve worked in a number of jurisdictions, are here in Ireland.
“I would say that our maternal mortality rate is as low as it is … because of those skilled clinicians and despite the Eighth Amendment, not because of it,” Kenny told reporters at an Amnesty International Ireland pro-repeal event in Dublin last month.
C v Ireland
The State’s abortion laws have been challenged at European level on a number of occasions. Three women brought a case (A, B, C v Ireland) to the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) in August 2005.
The case was taken by three women, supported by the Irish Family Planning Association (IFPA), who travelled abroad for abortion services.
One of the women, referred to as C, was in remission from cancer when she became pregnant. She claimed she could not obtain clear advice about the risks to her health and life, and to the foetus, if she continued her pregnancy to term.
On 3 March 2005, the woman had an abortion in England. She was in her first trimester of pregnancy at the time.
The judgement, delivered in December 2010, notes: “Prior to that, she had been treated for three years with chemotherapy for a rare form of cancer.
She had asked her doctor before the treatment about the implications of her illness as regards her desire to have children and was advised that it was not possible to predict the effect of pregnancy on her cancer and that, if she did become pregnant, it would be dangerous for the foetus if she were to have chemotherapy during the first trimester.
The cancer went into remission and the woman unintentionally became pregnant. She was unaware of this fact when she underwent a series of tests for cancer. When she discovered she was pregnant, she consulted her GP, as well as several medical consultants.
“She alleged that, as a result of the chilling effect of the Irish legal framework, she received insufficient information as to the impact of the pregnancy on her health and life and of her prior tests for cancer on the foetus,” the report states.
The woman researched her options online and went to England for a termination.
The report notes: “She maintained that she wanted a medical abortion (drugs to induce a miscarriage) as her pregnancy was at an early stage but that she could not find a clinic which would provide this treatment as she was a nonresident and because of the need for follow-up. She therefore alleged she had to wait a further eight weeks until a surgical abortion was possible.
On returning to Ireland after the abortion, the third applicant suffered complications of an incomplete abortion, including prolonged bleeding and infection. She alleges that doctors provided inadequate medical care.
In the case of this woman, the ECtHR ruled that her right to privacy under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights had been violated.
In its ruling, the ECtHR stated that it rejected the government’s argument that the woman “failed to exhaust domestic remedies”.
The Court also noted that the “criminal provisions” in legislation regarding abortion, which could lead to a 14-year jail sentence, “would constitute a significant chilling factor for both women and doctors in the medical consultation process, regardless of whether or not prosecutions have in fact been pursued”.
“Both the third applicant and any doctor ran a risk of a serious criminal conviction and imprisonment in the event that a decision taken in medical consultation, that the woman was entitled to an abortion in Ireland given the risk to her life, was later found not to accord with Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution (the Eighth Amendment). Doctors also risked professional disciplinary proceedings and serious sanctions,” the report states.
Eighth Amendment
Dr Peter Boylan, chair of the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, previously told the Oireachtas Eighth Amendment Committee: “I don’t think the Constitution is the place to regulate medical practice … [The Eighth] has caused endless problems.”
He added that the Eighth Amendment “gives rise to significant difficulties for doctors practising in Ireland and has caused grave harm to women, including death”.
These sentiments were echoed by Dr Rhona Mahony, the Master at the National Maternity Hospital, who separately told the committee that clinicians need greater flexibility and “shouldn’t have have to wait until a woman is at a substantial chance of dying”, as set out under the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013.
“There are no other areas where people are charged with making medical decisions under the shadow of a custodial sentence of 14 years. We had a chance to discriminate that in the case of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, and we chose not to do that. And I think that was a mistake,” Mahony said.
‘No effect on treatment’
However, at a Save the 8th campaign last month, Professor Eamon McGuinness, a consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist and former chair of the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, said the Eighth Amendment doesn’t impact the type of treatment doctors give pregnant women.
McGuinness is among the doctors who have said the Eighth Amendment has never impacted the care they give pregnant women, noting that the Medical Council’s guidelines oblige doctors to deliver the treatment a patient needs, including in cases where such treatment could harm an unborn child.
When asked about the comments made by Boylan and Mahony to the committee about the Eighth Amendment, McGuinness said: “Well I just want to know where it’s tying their hands, it didn’t tie my hands and, a lot of my colleagues, it didn’t tie our hands.
“We were not restricted in any way … so I don’t know what society they’re working in, possibly different than mine.”
‘Challenging for every physician’
An international study, the results of which were published in The Lancet Oncology in January, found that the use of treatment such as chemotherapy among pregnant women increased by about 10% every five years over the course of a 20-year period.
Researchers said this increase “could be related to a shift in cancer incidence” and the increasing age at which women become pregnant, as well as more doctors feeling comfortable using certain treatments as the level of research in this area increases.
The report notes: “Taking responsibility for a pregnant woman diagnosed with cancer and her unborn child is challenging for every physician.
“Therefore, an expert interdisciplinary team involving gynaecologists, medical oncologists, neonatologists, obstetricians, pathologists, psychologists, and radiotherapists is necessary to achieve the best oncological result for the woman and avoid morbidity for the fetus [sic].
Thanks to interdisciplinary cooperation and progress in oncology and neonatology, there has been a major clinical shift from termination of pregnancy at less than 20 weeks of gestation towards individualised therapy according to cancer type, stage, and patient preference, allowing most pregnancies to be prolonged until fetal maturity [sic].
The report states that “knowledge of the biology of cancer in pregnancy is very poor” and more research needs to be carried out.
The study in question examined the perinatal outcomes after treatment for various cancer types over two decades (1 January 1996 to 1 November 2016).
Some 1,170 women who were diagnosed with or treated for cancer during their pregnancy took part in the research. Some 779 (67%) received treatment during pregnancy. Breast cancer was the most common malignant disease (462/39%).
Admission to neonatal intensive care units (NICU) seemed to depend on the type of cancer – with gastrointestinal cancers having the highest risk and thyroid cancers having lowest risk when compared with breast cancer.
The researchers said that, unexpectedly, the data suggested that abdominal or cervical surgery was associated with a reduced likelihood of NICU admission.
The findings indicate that babies exposed to antenatal chemotherapy might be more likely to develop complications, such as being small for their gestational age and needing to be admitted to the NICU.
Effect on children
On the primary question of perinatal outcome, just over 500 patients in the study could be assessed: 391 of 1170 patients did not receive any oncological treatment during pregnancy, and 95 pregnancies were terminated before oncological therapy.
Among the remaining 684 patients, 89 with breast cancer underwent surgery alone without chemotherapy or radiation. The surgical procedures without subsequent therapy received by patients with thyroid cancer, melanoma or brain tumours would be unlikely to affect pregnancy outcomes.
In patients with acute leukaemia, immediate commencement of chemotherapy is the precondition for women’s survival.
Researchers said the findings of the study “strengthen the need for pregnant women who are treated for cancer to be extensively counselled” on the risks to themselves and the baby.
A 2015 European study examined the impact on children of prenatal exposure to cancer treatment. The 258 children involved were equally split into two groups.
In one group, 96 children (74.4%) were exposed to chemotherapy (alone or in combination with other treatments) during pregnancy, 11 (8.5%) to radiotherapy (alone or in combination), 13 (10.1%) to surgery alone, two (1.6%) to other drug treatments, and 14 (10.9%) to no treatment. They had a median age of 22 months.
The research found that prenatal exposure to maternal cancer with or without treatment did not impair the cognitive, cardiac or general development of the children in early childhood. Prematurity was correlated with a worse cognitive outcome, but this effect was independent of cancer treatment.
The study notes that research in this area is lacking and more needs to be done, particularly looking into the long-term outcome for children who are exposed to maternal cancer.
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Pavee Point are correct we need to address the poor living conditions of traveller’s in ireland. They sould be given free socal housing, free socal welfare payments weekly, free health care so they can go to doctors and hospitals regularly for check ups and there children should be given the best of free education……
oh wait they do already get all these services….. but pavee point as always blame the goverment and the tax payer for travellers problems……
Missing few points of Irish history there,
Irish government systematical oppressed the Traveller community, removing their children & trying to assimilate them in with settled familiars in 1930,40′s. Remind you of Aborigine people Australia, Indianans in America?
This Nothing to do with the PC brigade, the comments on journal everytime story about Travellers validates the oppression experienced by Travellers, the irony of it !!!
As settled Irish women, I Stand Up for travellers, just like if id been around 50′s, 60′s, 70′s, I stood up for young women been sent to laundry homes, oh wait though Irish society thought they deserved to be treated inhumane, thought it OK their children where dying at younger rate than rest Irish society.
I’m not PC brigade, I was completely shocked when I seen 1st hand what a traveller halting site was like, No heating, No running water, No electric hence the reason for high levels TB, 7 halting sites in Dublin like this.
But yeah that’s OK, because acceptable to think Travellers are sub human, tarring a whole community with 1 brush.
We learnt feck all, from our past, accept more people like me, have No problem standing up against people like you all. Crush you’s in verbal debate I would, shameful behaviour, like angry mob you all are, except it 2015, my generation shocked by what people except, promote, conclude with.
We will stand up against you’s.
Any traveller reading the comments ignore these f*ucking village idiots !
Sarcasm?
Gill b…… traveler childern were and still are taken by the government because their parents in question fail to care for them properly…… travelers live in sub human conditions like halting sites because they chose too not because we WHITE IRISH force them too……. and by the way us village idiots pay for them…….
If there’s 1 thing to be taken from this article,
It’s that badgers shouldn’t be kept as pets……
Gill b , But do the not choose to live like that ? So I don’t get your point ?
“No heating, no running water, no electric”. There was a point in time when this was everyone’s reality. TB too for that matter. But modern technology has brought the creature comforts that the vast majority of us avail of today. But it’s not magic and it’s not free of charge. It’s provided in a controlled and designated manner and it’s for purchase. The way Travellers choose to live, nomadically and in trailers, precludes them from accessing these services. It’s down to logistics. Nothing else. The utility companies would gladly sell them their services, if they could. If they want the mod cons (and the improved health) the rest of us have gone on to enjoy then they might want to review the way they choose to live…
@gill .. Ha ha ha , you totally exaggerated the first bit .. Any child born out of wedlock was taken off the mother & put into a home . It’s not just travellers , ye didn’t have it any harder than the rest of the settled community back then .
@gill ,. Travellers are not a race , a minority etc .. Ye are white Irish ppl who choose to live in camp sites , participate in bare knuckle fights , sulky race on busy roads putting lives at risk . This traveller thing is all in yer head , ye are Irish like us all .. Come back to us please !!
EU Commissionaire has put Irish government ‘Irish People’ on report numerous times over our treatment of Traveller Community.
No it’s nothing to do with logistics, Irish government does Not accept that travellers are nomadic community, we are the only EU state Not to accept this.
The reasoning behind our denial of the traveller nomadic lifestyle?
Then the state would have to provide, water, electricity & heating in halting sites.
300yrs stating, if you ignore your traveller culture, stop been nomadic, then we treat you better !!
Bigot say what ?
Justify your hatred all you want, as it can be traced back to English Rule in Ireland, Traveller community refused accept English Rule, refuse to speak their language and were persecuted, flash forward 150yrs nothing changed.
As stated the irony of all the bigoted comments, if I worked in Pavee, I’d screen shot them display them to EU commissionaire, as example of discrimination experience by travellers in Ireland.
@gill .. Let’s be totally honest here , the real reason ye want to be recognised or get a special status is so ye will be entitled to compensation or an extra payment
Bigot say what ???
You’re not actually the only one who stands up for minority communities. I have defended/stood up for travellers all my life and get directly involved with some in great need – do you?
Also I was around in the 70s & 80s and devoted my life to reporting abuses in residential care – very few listened – not health boards,Gardai, media, community. I achieved small but significant improvements for a few. So before you kick off abusing people here for a) having their own considered opinions about issues b) assuming people commenting are not your generation (as it’s your generation mostly using online media ) and c) assuming you know that everyone commenting here does nothing for anyone. Tell us what YOU have done? How many travellers do you personally know? How many have you helped? How many have you socialised with? Shared meals in their mobile homes/halting sites? Had over to your house for dinner/parties? Would love to hear what you do to contribute apart from ranting pig ignorant at others here? Yes some anti traveller attitudes are abysmal and need challenging but you’re attacking reasonable comments here – including the fact that while its by no means the whole picture – some traveller specific problems need to be changed from within the traveller community – many travellers will tell you that themselves. By & large traveller communities are amongst the nicest, most decent people in the world. Some are not at all.
The EU gives moneys to native ethnic minorities in Europe.
All the race card always pays out a lot of money.
Flash forward 150 years and far from resisting the English, there is a significant Irish Traveller community voluntarily living in England. I understand many are even on the UK welfare system. Flash forward 150 years and nothing has changed for the Travellers perhaps (or rather the Travellers have chosen not to change) but for the rest of us who choose to work hard, looking forward and better ourselves there has been a vast change for the better from 150 years ago in terms of living and health standards. So perhaps this is all down to the Travellers themselves??
Gill B….. the travelling community keeps on telling the settled community/ taxpayer you are c#nts and we are the way we are because of you….. well if travelers keep bitting the hands that feeds and provides for them, keeps them safe, keeps them secure to continue their bad life style choices and disrespecting the tax payer then we can only say fook you sorry but thats the way it works……
Glad u asked , I volunteered to work in Palestine in 2000 , real problems there !! Why didn’t u help the homeless men that were held as slaves in a halting site in England ?
Una I No way mean to offend you or anyone who stands up for human rights.
You seriously misunderstood my comments.
They are Only directed at bigoted commentors.
Yes, just like the settled community, traveller community has cultural issues that need to be addressed, before we start pointing finger out, let’s point it in 1st.
I was reared with travellers, have many as friends & work colleagues, my comments may come across direct, but that’s just me, I say it as is.
The reason I’m direct is because so many traveller young people have stated to me they read comment section of journal.
It’s people like you, that informed me, encouraged me to be better human being grown up Inner City, where Pavee is on my doorstep.
Keyboard warriors, Trolls that hide behind fake accounts have nothing to add to discussions, but hate. Hence the reasoning for the fake accounts, to afraid to expose who they really are as their hate comments be traced back to them.
Gill B i can tell you work for pavee point and are trolling dont try to fool the readers on this page……. no body trusts a word you say or anything that comes out of pavee points mouth…… and by the way the irish tax payer…. pays your wages…….
Unless your human rights work falls under Intersectionality framework, you ain’t working in human rights !!
Intersectionality, age, race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, class & disability.
Example : Young Gay Traveller women can experience numerous levels of discrimination/oppression, because of her gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation.
Suggest you read CHAVS, evidence informed book, which actually highlights, how people in western societies, will claim to be human rights activists for Palestine people, then go and oppress another human being, because of their class, ethnicity, gender etc
I have experienced it 1st hand, people who support human rights of LGBT community, then completely oppress working class people in Ireland.
As such, it was a Power house of women, youth worker in my local community, that challenge me & my friends to accept Intersectionality framework as the only way someone can claim to be human rights activist.
Trust me, at 1st it was challenge, as we wanted judge, unconsciously oppress another group, she would Not let us, kept asking ‘where that hate come from’?
Shut the front door !!!
I gladly work for Pavee, but actually don’t.
Lies, lies, it all lies, the EU Commissionaire Report, 1,000 yrs of Traveller History??
There’s no secret recipe to this Gill, you give respect and you get it back, it’s really that simple.
Not arsed listing all the negative run ins I’ve had with these orcs but a lot of the criticism and anger towards them is very warranted.
To deny that is to deny credibility to your argument
Lord what are you still rambling on about?
I regularly have to attend halting sites through my job and what gets me every time is that they complain about the accommodation that they receive. In the odd case the women take pride in the bays and have them well.
Most wreck them and expect new or replacement properties.
My biggest annoyance with listening how we should pay for this and that is the brand new cars outside their sites… It’s unbeknownst how they happily spend 35k on a new car or can but won’t pay for their own heating.
Nail on the head sean new cars and hiace vans but their kids frezzing in their beds at night and we the tax payer should give two fooks…….. about time we start calling a spade…. a spade what you say to that GILL B ….from pavee point?
@gill .. I know at least 10 settled families who don’t work and are now claiming to be travellers ., one of their sons married a traveller girl .. Why ???? Because they know down the road they can claim an extra benefit .. It’s all a scam !!
How to launder money from criminal proceedings in ireland… you walk into a real estate agent say i want to buy that house for 200k they say ok.. you give them the money in cash…. weeks later the criminal assets bureau knock on the door of your house…. they say jonny where you get the money to buy that house your 21 and been drawing the dole sense the day you were 18….. well officers as you and i well know the law in ireland states a person can give you a gift of 1000 euro tax free… here is the name… numbers … Address of the 200 people that gave me a 1000 euro each as a 21st gift…. ring them they will confirm this…….. and thats how they buy houses, new range rovers and the cops cant touch them………………. trust me i know……. if not can you explain how they buy all this stuff from criminal proceeds and are not prosecuted????…..
That question was put to Collins of pavee point on the Vincent Browne show .. And he’s answer was ” they’re entitled to buy a house “. Sums up pavee point !!
@Gill B
It’s up to Travellers to integrate in Irish society. I’ve nothing against the idea of celebrating heritage but they have to start living like normal people in order to reduce their susceptibility to TB and other health problems. I’m aware that there are Travellers who have integrated and have done well.
PS: I hope that my comment is regarded as sufficiently balanced.
How many travellers do I personally know? How many have I helped?
Well, 2 groups of them helped themselves to the contents of my house on 2 separate occasions, if that counts.
Pavee Point were silent on the issue, unsurprisingly.
Some of you really need to get your facts in order, other are conceited bigots, who feel that other human being are beneath contempt purely for being Travellers.
As for those who think that Travellers/Rom etc. have the same access to services as everyone else. I am sorry to say this but you are wrong. I don’t know what misguided information you have access to but if you want I happy enough to provide you with evidence in person.
As for giving up our way of living and not living in Caravans or on the road anymore, who are any of you to dictate how another person should live. I cause minimal disturbance, I leave the land better than when I arrived. I have a moral and ethical code which likely makes some of the non Traveller campsites look dirty in comparison.
For those who think we get Social Welfare, try again not even entitled to it, I am registered Blind, but I have no PPS or entitlement to work. How do I survive, (for done of you the first thought will be that I survive by commuting crime) you would be very wrong, I sell the Big Issue, I make and sell friendship bracelets, I repair technology, I collect scrap (mainly copper) and take it to the scrap man, I grow seedlings of tomatoes and other vegetables/flowers and sell them at market. There are a myriad of ways in which to survive.
Some of the comments above make me sad at the ignorance and bigotry that are out there, I would give anything to carry on my lifestyle and not be forced into settling.
There is a criminal element in the settled community, just as there is an element that will fly tip just about anywhere to avoid paying for rubbish disposal, all of the is frequently blamed on Travellers and we seem to be the universal scape goat. Open you minds a little and you will realise that we are human beings.
This comment could go on forever, so I am cutting it short, all I will say before you start throwing stones at any particular group take a good look at yourselves first.
I know if 2 traveller sites in Coolock. They got free houses with electric and running water and a bin collection. They smashed up all the houses and live in caravans. They dump piles of rubbish on a field beside them. They set cars and caravans on fire. They dumped an old mobile home over a wall onto a busy road.
Rose every community has bad elements, it’s more about the ratio of good to bad. One question I’m genuinely curious about, you talk about a restriction on certain services, well what about education? All I remember from school was every traveller child was dragged out by their parents after primary school at latest. Whose fault is this?
And I am openly bigoted against them, it’s out of character for me, but the crap I personally dealt with and members of my family would turn a saint against them
Travellerculosis: Remedies include
A) Start paying Tax.
B) Stop fighting each other because you heard that someone might have said something about your Mammy 800 years ago.
C) When going out drinking in a group of 20 do not all wear the same shirts. Looks like a football team on the beer.
D) Start being sounder.
“than white Irish people”
Is it cos they is black?
Quick give them free money
Thank God for Pavee pointless…..
“White irish born population” a pavee point classic
I think that reference is from the report:
“The research team also found that in Irish Travellers the average age of a TB patient was 26 years compared to 43 years in the general population in Ireland, and 49 years in the white Irish-born population.”
We have so many bogus asylum seekers from Africa living in Ireland now, they have actually significantly changed the age at which the average person living in Ireland gets TB so much so that the study has to differentiate between them. It’s a known issue that foreign nationals put a strain on the health service.
And how specifically do foreign nationals strain the health service? Is it not an issue of individuals that don’t make significant contributions to the state coffers (by being unemployed) instead?
Or have you just found a correlation between *some* foreign nationals and unemployment and decided to ignore it because it doesn’t fit your agenda of xenophobia?
Is it our passports? is it the colour of our skin? Our curly hair? What is it that makes foreign nationals so specifically strain the health services more than non-foreign nationals?
If TB is more prevalent in the traveller community, wouldn’t it be the case that they strain the health services more than the ‘irish white population’?
I wonder.
Well said Al Fonso. Too much generalising. Drug resistant TB is on the rise worldwide. Yes, it is mainly a phenomena of certain countries but with air travel it can quickly spread. The overwhelming majority of foreign nationals present no greater health risk than an Irish born person. For those cohorts that may present a higher risk there should be targeted health strategies. Having said that, anyone, with a serious infectious disease, especially one which is resistant to drugs, and who refuses to take their medication, is a public health risk and should be dealt with accordingly.
The best way to get tb is from spit, so if all your deals end with spitting on somebody else well you wouldn’t have to be matlock
I violent agree more. The biggest reason TB is spread is because of the filthy habit people have over spitting. This has been proven time and time again.
Sorry……. Damn predictive text. “I couldn’t agree more”, I meant to write
“More likely than ‘white’ Irish people”!? What!?
Three times more likely than “white Irish people”??
Good point are travelers also not white and irish…..so they are….. also white irish….
It’s contracted through contact with bitumen .
Hmmm wonder what the vaccination levels are?
No Sam, vaccinations are not their culture, that’s “White Irish” only.
wonder where these dirty campsites are.have any of you been inside a halting site.the ones close to me are spotless.the women cleaning all day in their pjs.they all eat from the deli at the local garage cause they wouldnt dirty their kitchens by cooking.certainly not dirty people.but to be in a shop and see them pulling out rolls of fifties to pay for the breakfast roll would rot ya!
“The study shows the need to address the poor living conditions of many Travellers.”
Here’s a mad idea, tell them to stop living in Caravans. If they don’t want to do that, maybe tell them to stop turning the areas they infest into landfill sites.
Typical they get everything
Latte sipping social progressive types have rights to, why does the journal allow such bigotry against the LSSPT community.
Sometimes I check myself. #lssptRights
U have to treat people the way they deserve to be treated.its cool now to stand up for the travellers but it’s so obvious how naive and distant from reality the people who do are
Whats TB. Toomany. Benefits
Whats this “settled” community crap i hear all the time when travellers are moaning ? It implies that we were all travellers and then “settled” , absolute rubbish. If you don’t want an 1840′s disease, then stop living and behaving as you were in the 1840′s.
White Irish? Travellers are not?????
Serious question- would the journal allow this level of bigoted comment on an article about higher rates of disease among the black population in the US? Really sickened that people think it’s ok to openly express such hatred of a minority and so many other people are liking it. Happens every time there’s an article about Travellers on this site and it’s really not good enough.
We should establish a state funded investigation into your claims
Hey, if the shoe fits …………… Steal the pair.
@ fleetingwhim – I reckon you’re right. There seems to be a lot of hypocrisy on here. And it is most prevalent amongst the latte sipping social progressive types, which I find quite interesting. It is not okay to say boo about some minority groups but it is perfectly okay and even encouraged to sh*t on other ones. Total mob mentality.
How about you let 15 caravans of them live behind your house for six months and see if your impression of them changes?
Constant intimidation, vanishing pets, racism hurled at my Indian neighbour, local shops constantly robbed, area filled with waste (both human and otherwise), walls and fences smashed to pieces in order to allow more of them to come in, old caravans burnt out, constant drunkenness and noise every night of the week and streams of visitors to the house begging for food and money.
Oh and ALL of this stopped when they eventually moved on funnily enough
I’m sorry, travellers are universally tarred with a very negative brush and it’s them doing the painting.
Get off ur high horse. Pikeys are bad news any where. There is a minority’s who are sound but the vast majority are dangerous b@stards
The problem here is that the nomadic lifestyle does not lend itself to desired social outcomes in either the health, education or economic sphere. It is the settled lifestyle which has generated wealth and higher living standards in every nation of the world. The reasons for this are self evident and well documented. From the time mankind became adopted an agricultural lifestyle, it has been possible to generate and accumulate greater economic and social wealth with all the consequential benefits. If the traveling community wish to maintain their “traditional” lifestyle then that is their prerogative of course. But they should pay for it and not the rest of society. If you wish to remain stuck in a time warp it is inevitable that certain benefits will not accrue to you. I take serious exception to the notion that this is the fault of the Irish state. It is not. If travelers wish to enjoy the same benefits as “settled” people then the solution is obvious. Settle, drop the victim mentality, get an education by attending the local school with the rest of us and work hard like the rest of us. Oh, and get off welfare. It’s meant to be a safety net; not a lifestyle choice.
John R .. You said it good ” drop the victim mentality ” , there is the best of houses for them but as you said they are stuck in a time warp
Those ” white Irish ” are very racist to the other group of ” white Irish ” .. Pavee point are always good for a laugh !!!
Yeah , poor travellers. Yet i have never heard of “settled” people bringing slashhooks, ironbars, shotguns to funerals/christenings/weddings/communions etc. murdering family members outside the church, and having an entire midlands town on lockdown when the court precedings were on.
KNOWN FOR GENERATIONS as a highly secretive and insular community, the Irish Travellers in the US are descended from a group of families that crossed the Atlantic as early as the 1830s.
It’s estimated there are as many as 10,000 people in the states who identify themselves as part of the community, although that number could be far greater – the problem being the US Census doesn’t recognise them as a separate ethnic group.
http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-travellers-america-1039464-Aug2013/
I never cease to be amazed by the huge number of bigoted comments that accompany every SINGLE mention of the Travelling Community on this website.
Prejudice against the traveling community didn’t exactly come from nowhere. When every dealing you have with a group of people is negative, you’re going to think negatively about the people.
Tricia we live in the real world not downton abbey don’t be so naive
It’s because the Journal largely allow freedom of expression here which is to their credit and the biggest reason I primary read the news on this site in preference to the heavily censored alternatives. Keep up the good work, Journal folk!
Pikey b@stards should be ethnically cleansed. They are robbing the country blind. People are sick of the c unts now.
http://howdoyoudhulaigh.weebly.com/where-the-streets-have-no-names/category/all
Firstly that article referees to me and although some of it is factually inaccurate. I do not choose my present circumstances.
@Mike
I know the two sites you are referring to in Coolock, near the Clarehall Shopping Centre, firstly you cannot use the actions of a set group of individuals to tar and entire community with the same brush.
Secondly: do you now got a fact that they have a FREE house, and FREE electric?
Thirdly: do you know it is them setting cars and caravans on fire? I have been attacked in this way previously and it is a terrifying prospect, just because you are a Traveller some bigot decides to set your home on fire to try to move you on.
I have been attacked on several occasions and taunted being called a “Gippo” and other derogatory names, I have learnt with time to let these comments go over my head and not into my heart. If I had let this kind of person affect me so badly I imagine I would be a very angry frustrated individual.
As for the house being smashed up do you know for certain that this was done by the Traceller family? And even if it was it is not a reason to think that we are all the same. I know if several alcoholic, and settled people with broken families whose houses I have been asked to repair.
I am not far from Coolocj and know well that the area is run down and in need of adequate facilities. As for the litter, this is a problem everywhere it is due to some people’s general lack of respect for the environment. In some areas and run down estates it is more obvious, in these places fly tipping occurs and this just worsens the issue.
@ Foghorn Leghorn
It wouldn’t let me reply directly for some reason
I agree that every community has it’s bad elements, and no you are certainly not being bigoted by saying this. However in regard to education I may be able to clarify some points.
I have been working since about the age of ten and received no schooling, that however does not make me a dunce, most Traveller children have to earn a living from a young age and it is impractical to be educated in one School when the family income is earned from being on the move. I know several Travellers who are heavily frustrated and angry with the education system as it is not fit for purpose. It doesn’t prepare you for life and actually earning a living.
Many Travellers would like to be able to home educate there children whilst also teaching them about life skills and earning a living. Travellers often take there children from School after primary as they are needed to work and earn a living do the whole family can survive. We are on the move do frequently that attending a myriad of different schools is actually more disrupting than beneficial as an education.
I have Donegal best and earn a living, I will not claim the dole, (currently not entitled to it anyway, despite being registered blind) . The day I cannot support myself, I want someone to come and put me out if my misery.
We do not have access to healthcare, we at best can see the doctor who treats the homeless and often has strings attached.
Many Travellers feel that they are being persecuted and forced to settle, (I myself have experience with this, and because I am less able, they tried to insist). The families that have been forced to settle can no longer work and the children are bored as they have limited opportunities. This leads to social problems. We are forced to assimilate and those of us that do end up in poor domestic circumstances, those if us that don’t assimilate to settled ways are ostracised and excluded at many levels. All most of us want is to live out our lives in peace.
I see no problem with this if we are not harming anyone. That said society does not like that which is different or does not conform to its preconceived ideas of how people should live.
@ Ann O’Reilly
That’s sounds like fear talking and mass media propaganda.
I am well aware that people are afraid and sometimes intimidated by Travellers, just as we are frequently accosted by settled people, I myself having been attacked on more than one occasion by settled people carrying knives, (pot calling the kettle black?!)
When I refer to settled people it is purely to distinguish the “settled” community from the Traveller community, I also use the term Countrymen but it is not as widely understood and more easily misconstrued.
There are various persecuted and otherwise individuals who walk around “tooled up” this is often for there own protection and will only be used as a last resort. As for mob mentality that goes both ways. There are elements in every community that are undesirable.
If you have never heard or witnessed “settled” people arguing or drunk and fighting or walking around in gangs than you are a very fortunate individual, although at this point I would expect you to have limited perspective.
Let them live next door to ya!
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