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A US CITIZEN has revealed how she had to drop charges against her husband for rape and assault in order to remain in Ireland with her two children.
Deborah* and her now ex-husband, who is a European citizen, moved to Ireland in 2001, and she was obliged to go to the garda immigration office every six months with him to confirm that he was still working in the country so that she could stay.
“We had separated because of the violence after I had my first son but we tried to work things out,” she told TheJournal.ie. “In 2004, things were OK for a while but by Christmas he had become more violent and he took a belt to me, and split the back of my head open.”
A few months later, Deborah told her husband she wanted a separation and she said that night he beat her and sexually assaulted her in their house.
“I called the gardaí and they arrested him – he admitted that he’d done it,” she explained.
Social welfare
The woman and her two children moved into a women’s refuge for a short period but when the time came to apply for emergency funding, she said the social welfare workers were “hostile” towards her.
My immigration card had expired and the man who was there said it was illegal for me to be here and how dare I try to get money. I was standing there with two small children, my face was a mess, it was obviously someone had tore into me and he actually told me that he had a good mind to call the gardaí on me.
Deborah said that she had thought of leaving Ireland but one of her children had been born in a European country and she was told by a solicitor that if she left to return to the US with the two children at that time, she could be accused of kidnapping them.
“”I really had no way to leave,” she said. “It was either leave them behind with him or take them with me and possibly have to send them back alone since there was no guarantee I’d be allowed back in. I was trapped in a place it was illegal for me to be in.”
‘Humiliating’
When she tried to have her immigration status renewed, Deboarh was told that this could not be done without her husband, who was, by this time, remanded to prison.
The charges against him meant that he could not be within a certain distance of her and when he came before the courts, Deborah said she was “forced to drop the rape charges” so that he could help her to stay in the country.
“It was a humiliating experience,” she said. “I spoke in front of the same gardaí who were there when I went for the medical examination, they knew what had happened and the only reason I was dropping the charges was because of my immigration status. In any other situation, I would have seen it through but I had to let him away with it”.
After receiving free legal advice and writing to the government about her situation, Deborah was eventually granted leave to stay in the country, independent of her husband, by the Department of Justice.
Trapped
Recently, the Immigrant Council of Ireland warned that immigrants who are victims of domestic violence are feeling trapped as they are worried reporting the crime will impact on their ability to remain in the country. The council is seeking to have domestic violence formally recognised in immigration law and the provision of emergency accommodation and welfare benefits for victims.
In a statement to TheJournal.ie, The Department of Justice said that it “does not accept that the lack of specific legislation in this area is keeping people trapped in violent relationships”.
The Department already deals with these cases as they arise in a sensitive and sympathetic way and has granted independent status to several people who have come forward. Cases obviously have to be looked at on their merits but that would be the case irrespective of whether there was specific legislation referencing domestic violence scenarios.
* The woman’s name has been changed in order to protect her identity.
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This should not be possible. What a nightmare for this woman.
The social welfare guy should be disciplined and sacked but guess what, he can’t be
I agree Shane, it’s absolutely sickening and maddening to think of this ‘official’ (prikk) treating her and her children like this, she’d already been through so much and was obviously very vulnerable.
If she is illegal she is illegal kick her out. I am sure the social get sob stories everyday .
Fool
Do NOT feed itiswhaitis the troll!!!!
@Jackass
If she’s remains illegal & can’t get sorted then she may ultimately get kicked out. Fair enough.
Doesn’t mean some a$$hole can beat the living crap out of her, rape her and get away with it!!
Grrrrrrr!!
Michael,
I do agree with you. I have commented further down that she should not have to go but ultimately that may be best for her and the children who may end up living in care if they cannot go with her.
Crime against the person is paramount and by sending her back to the US the state may be committing another crime but this time against the little persons. Surely when it says department of social protection it should mean protect not divide and conquer.
And do what with her children? Leave them with a physically and sexually abusive father? What her husband did to her is illegal yet he’ll get no more than a couple of years in prison, or a suspended sentence no doubt.
Ashley, I have read nothing here at all that says he is guilty of these crimes
Just cause she’s a woman doesn’t mean she’s telling the truth!
That’s exactly what I said. Thank God you’re so intelligent.
Read the article again Doey he admitted the crime to the guards. The social welfare employee described in this story is not unique. They have a stinking attitude also to people who have worked for years and have to go claim on their stamps. Their attitude is one of ignorance, bad manners, dismissive, superior, unhelpful and downright rude. There are many instances of this appalling behaviour towards legitimately unemployed Irish people, not just to non-nationals. as described in this article.
Doey
He admitted his guilt.
No, if you read it again, he admitted his guilt SHE said
That’s an unpopular truth Doey.
Obviously you have a heart if stone do you not think the woman thought about going home but couldn’t because she could loose her child and you heartless person didn’t consider that after the woman loosing her dignity by being raped u suggest she also looses her child I suggest u develop a conscience if that’s even possible
If you read the article it shows that there was a medical report done so I suggest u read the article before making a ignorant comment like that again, how dare u suggest that this woman is lying after the ordeal she went through
Doey, rather than try and play devils advocate to provoke an argument, why don’t you focus on the real issue here rather than focusing on whether you believe her or not. Taking this story at face value, be it true or not, it highlights a hole in our legal system that can leave women, or men for that matter, and their children stuck in an extremely difficult situation.
This is a disgrace no woman should go through that and the children are suffering to. No excuses for anyone to be treated this way.
Seriously?
It’s not as if this women was some random chancer. She was a former native of the US, who had been in the country for years & had her children here. What an ignorant statement.
She was violently beaten by her husband and forced to drop charges to remain here with her children. I’m sure she wasn’t using it as a “son story”
Yeah, so when someone come to us an tell us a story about dragons, we should just take their word at face value, and pass a law against keeping dragons in the closet, and ask the governmet to form a specialized anti-dragon police.
I’m just saying, it obviously seems like there is sufficient enough evidence to correlate her story.
*Sob
Evidence?… That a strong word there Jessie…
Maybe it is because my background in science but where I come from “she said so” isn’t evidence of anything…
Yes lets sack him because a person tried to claim money they were not entitled to said he was rude.
There is no such thing as an “illegal person” but you are criminally stupid.
I have never read such codswallop as my mother would say. This is complete BS. I am a European married to an American woman. There is no problem for the wife getting “status”. She could have and should have obtained the right to live and work immediately and then citizenship after 3 years. If she had obtained legal advice as she said she has she would have been told this. She is obviously someone who has not taken care of herself or her children in a responsible way and now when she has a problem, chooses to whine. Do you think that for one minute the Gardaí would entertain the dropping of a rape case if there was evidence? SHE cannot drop charges against her husband for rape and assault as she said she did. Only the DPP can. To me this stinks of lies and more lies.
I agreed with you Gerry, if she had proof that she is working in the country she will have no problem in renewing her status and she could have been able to put the monster behind the bar for his wrong doing.
Did anyone consider that the news article did not find it necessary to include forensic evidence rape or physical assault had occurred, rather than assuming the accuser was fabricating?
Logically, why would someone subject herself to such an ordeal, with immigration, Garda and so on if living with her husband were a tenable situation?
I’ve had to support several women fleeing abuse with no status of their own here, and the laws are not there to help them. There is case by case support, but the demand on this is huge and waiting times mean the allegedly abused are forced to live within a dangerous and soul-destroying home situation as they’ve no recourse elsewhere. The refuges cannot hold them for the time it takes. They’ve little access to financial support, and no entitlement to housing.
It’s a horrible situation.
What if she wasn’t working? What if she was at home raising the children? What if she hadn’t been here for the requisite 3 years yet?or what if all that was true yet she herself grew up in abuse and also lacked the self- esteem and autonomy to have taken all the right actions to make sure she was protected to begin with, as she never expected her husband to turn abusive?
I’ve worked in domestic violence support for 6 years. I’ve not yet met a single woman fleeing abuse whose partner mid not initially present himself as exceptionally caring and charming. I’m every case, and I am not exaggerating, the abuse begins once they have secured sufficient dependence upon themselves by their partner that she cannot leave easily.
Just for the record, I’m using the feminine gender here, not because women don’t also abuse men, but as female to male abuse rarely includes financial control.
Your compassion is outstanding, you’re a wonderful person aren’t you!
Sophus,
I’m not saying “because she said so” is sufficient evidence, but “scientifically speaking”, I’m sure her physical markings didn’t appear out of the blue.
Well I am sure you can get it confirmed by the gardai ir by the detention centre he landed in as a result.
“Dropping the charges” should not be allowed. The man broke the law and it sounds like the Garda had good evidence to prove it. He should be in jail and the woman and her children should have been immediately granted permission to remain in the state as victims of crime. It’s a broken system that isn’t keeping families safe and definitely isn’t serving Irish society.
He wasn’t convicted
Yes, I know. That was the point of the article. He wasn’t convicted because the woman he assaulted had to drop the charges so that she could remain in Ireland. The legal system never had a chance to determine innocence or guilt.
Of course he wasn’t. She had no choice but to drop the charges. It can be difficult enough for an Irish citizen to get out of an abusive situation. This is exponentialky more difficult. Completely disgusting!!! Please tell me things have changed since then.
And yet you said “the man broke the law”…he wasn’t convicted so how do you prove that
Stop being a dick of a troll.
the man admitted it he was in court only for the case to be dropped because of her situation.
The law should change to allow Garda to press on with the charges considering he confessed and they have medical reports of the evidence.
As for the residency issue that is a another matter that needs to be looked at. Having a law change for helping in situations like this would unfortunately be open to being abused but still needs to be changed if even to allow a temporary change for the person to apply for residency in their own right.
Remember the US are also not so friendly to our ‘illegal Irish’ and the welfare person would have no doubt called the police – not saying its right but fact is at present he was within the letter of the law, unpopular as it is….
Michele, the court cannot determine innocence as he is entitled to the presumption of such.
Doey, the red thumbs that you are getting should tell you to stop.
Doey has an opinion… He shouldn’t stop because red thumbs disagree with him!
Doey is either a trolling buffoon or a bona fide misogynist. Either way, due to the nature of this article, he should be thought of with contempt, and preferably ignored so as not to be given a platform for his hate-mongering.
I’m not hate mongering
The law doesn’t stop cause she happens to be a woman
This is a very very messy situation and people have been know to lie before especially where children are involved
Most of you are making allowances cause of the whole rape card woman scenario as I expected
The law is the law, and yes when children are involved I get very edgy
Why oh why didn’t this woman either apply for sole immigration status or attempt to renew it until now
I have friends in Australia who have sent in an application for immigration renewal even though theirs doesn’t run out for another 6 MONTHS
Even if she was raped it doesn’t stop her being a parent and she has put her children at risk of deportation/ no parents because of negligence to the law
Ah why bother – Doey doesn’t want to face the true facts. None so blind.
Doey fair enough I’ll give u the benefit of not being a troll and request u read the article again.
Regardless of her gender as the non-eu partner the victim will continue to be in the same situation each time.
Think of the Irish system it’s not as black&white as u make out and obviously needs to be change to support the victim in more than just this case.
You can’t chose to ignore the fact a rapist is walking the street because of this failure end of – he admitted he did it to the Gardaí….
Excuse me but can you explain your ‘Rape card woman scenario’ comment in more detail????? Am very interested to know more about this particular social phenomenon.
What a natural disaster the legal system.lawyers and judges who work with this every day and do nothing about it should be ashamed.poor woman.
What an absolute nightmare. Nobody should be subjected to anything like that. And of course the dept. “Refuse to accept! “
Kinda like the Sketch ‘Computer says no’ but this was a sketch! This is real life!
That’s a really distressing story. And I bet it’s indicative of a situation faced any many. I know the Immigrant Council of Ireland highlighted this use recently. It was even covered in a Journal.ie article.
It’s work notice the reaction in
The comments in both articles. In his story, about an American women, there are no ‘send her home, ‘sponging immigrants’, ‘cheating the system’ comments, whereas on almost every other story related to immigration on this site there are hundreds of such comments, which confirms what I’ve always guessed: anti-immigration rhetoric is less about immigration and more about racism.
Well said. The amount of 2 faced idiots on here is incredible and this really does show just how racist Ireland is.
Fully agree…. Really shows this country for the inbred hillbilly island that it really is…. Shocking
Poor woman ….system is à joke …
Of course we are only hearing her side of the story. Was the husband ever convicted of these charges ? Could this be a case of get myself and my children citizenship by any means necessary
When the guards came to the house he admitted what he had done
If you read the story properly, it said he was on remand in prison and the charges against him meant he couldn’t be within a certain distance of her, but she had to drop the charges against him before he could be convicted in order to update her citizenship
“I called the Gardai, and they arrested him-he admitted he’d done it” SHE explained
Doey
They would not have given a restraining order if there were no grounds!
Why bother commenting when you don’t even fully read the article?? He admitted the crime to the Gardai !!!
Why even bother Natalie, he just doesn’t get it or doesn’t want to!
Actually, a man can be restrained and taken from the house even if he has done nothing wrong,
Any of you have male divorcee friends?
Doey may have a large chip on his shoulder re. women.
Were you bullied?
This is her story so she has to relate it. DPP and the judge both felt he had a case to answer if he was on remand. That’s two independent legal authorities not just the woman’s say so. But I suppose there’s a chance she raped herself and managed to provide evidence to that effect like say vaginal bruising. Same for her face and other marks. She may gave done those herself yet so she could put herself and her kids in a legal limbo. Yes she had motive alright.
If the DDP thought he had a case to answer then its up to him to drop the charges, not her. Too many inconsistencies in this story.
Ok lets say he did it and the case is pending
Now her immigration card has run out
She has two small children and by my understanding ONE of them maybe of Irish birth
Now could we not leave the children in the care of one of her friends while she goes back to America to renew her own immigration status and wait for the case to happen
It seems weird to me that she would drop the case against her RAPIST just to renew her immigration status
Is that because the kids would have to stay in Europe?(remembering he has not been found guilty yet)
So she cannot be the automatic legal guardian YET
Some Parents have been known to effectively kidnap their children in cases of separation and divorce
(A case in court is pending and they Fcuk off never to return) then you have a wild goose chase around the world
I agree it seems real sucky to do this to someone but it isn’t just her rights involved his and the children are included in this very messy situation
Are you missing the whole point of her story . She HAD to drop the charges so he would attend with her to renew her visa to stay. Any victim of domestic abuse has the right to drop the charges and many do due to fear and intimidation . It’s not up to the DPP. The DPP looks at the facts and decides if there is a case to answer. There obviously was because the man was charged and judge held him in remand . No inconsistencies at all. You are also making an assumption in the other article she wanted to be a welfare queen. Some assumption . How do you not know if she us working now? Crisis situations sometimes require support from welfare and she had children perfectly entitled to be in Ireland .
It seems from the article she could have taken the kids and disappeared back to the US, she was advised this would have been breaking the law and this probably meant if she came back to give evidence she could or would have been arrested. When you are in a new country its very possible you don’t gave friends that are willing to take your children on for any length of ti e plus if they are you g kids you may not want to leave them . Especially if they are already traumatised by domestic violence. She has no reason to make this up. She risked being kicked out and parted from her children. Why would she go through police Interviews and physical examination just to drop the charges later on. It makes no sense at all .
Not every woman is your ex Doey
And not every man is a rapist/ murderer/ abuser
Mcmonkey
Read the article save you looking like an idiot when you post.
restrained yes! restraining order well. And yes many divorced male friends but none that raped and beat a woman. I worked in DV I know about these things Doey you are just a stirer
I agree with you many good men but also a few bad
I bet he started out with a low level of misogyny, and as he realise that women don’t really go for that, and had is aggressive and/or creepy advances spurned he grew to hate women even more and more.
Thing is, if he ever had the courage to acknowledge his misogyny he would probably agree with my scenario bit conclude that women were to blame for it, for spurning his advances. Those that try to control, abuse an exploit women always blame women for their misogyny..
Shower..
I’m referring to that tool Doey by the way..
This is disgusting , first thing she needs to do is lodge a complaint with the department of social protection and follow their complaints procedure ( she will get know where ) but then when you get your response , if not happy with it take it to the ombudsman and they will deal with it. Don’t let this go. People with the attitude of the man she had to deal with have no place in such a position. Best of luck to her and hope it all works out for her.
That’s horrifying. Even if there’s no legislation around it, you’d think people would have a little more sympathy for this poor woman, and not threaten to call the guards when she applies for funding, or force her to drop rape charges.
Ah but Sally Anne Does the State accept Rape within marriage or relationship? – I am not sure – I know it is in the UK
Please dont jump on me for this I am asking the question as I do not know the law around this
Yes, the State does recognised rape within marriage. That aspect of the law changed in about 1990.
Well that is a good step forward but what about withing relationsips?
If the state does not accept rape within a marriage, what makes you think it would be accepted within any other type of relationship?
If you read above as Chris said
Yes, the State does recognised rape within marriage. That aspect of the law changed in about 1990.
Difficulties in reading Sandbag or are you just sandbagging me??
If he admitted to Gardai as stated in article, and she’s now been granted leave independent of him – can she not go back to the gardai and restart proceedings?
Unless a court finds that there is substantial new evidence available, you can’t get tried for the same crime twice. In this case, the woman withdrew her complaint & is not offering any new evidence in relation to the crime.
But he wasn’t tried in the first place so I see no reason he can’t be tried now.
He was charged with a crime & then the allegation was dropped, he cannot be charged with the same crime again unless there’s new evidence relating to it.
OK thanks Sandbag – I knew you couldn’t be tried twice, but didn’t know charges couldn’t be reinstated under the same circumstance. Interesting.
You can with make an accusation and then with draw it. You can also reinstate it especially as there has been an admittance as far as I know
Has the male official been fired? Reprimanded? Retrained? I bloody well hope so.
Why would he be? He was going by the letter of the law. He also may have been a male divorcee so there would have been absolutely no sympathy from him after having given up his own children and much of his hard earned money to his ex.
The situation always depends, but the official in this case in fact acted according to the law in an admirable manner considering the complexity and raw emotions behind a tense situation.
It a good job that the countries that the Irish immigrated to over the years didn’t treat them all like that poor woman was treated
Tony
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Can you imagine the Irish in New York in the 30′s?
No Irish No dogs springs to mind here.
That was predominately in the UK and it was No Blacks No Irish No Dogs
Unfortunately many Irish men beat their wives in USA and Australia with no help from the legal system and the Irish had to work everywhere they emigrated to , no help from welfare for them !
‘Doey’… You are a moron
How so?
If I had to guess, if say she’s referring you you being a rape-apologising misogynist, just a stab in the dark.
Jeans comments thus far
‘Dooey you are a moron’
‘Morticia you are a moron’
Thanks for partaking in the debate you idiot.
Ah yes Tanya espania- as opposed to your history of no comments whatsoever and hiding under a pseudo name . My comments were made in relation to specific comments made by others…they were well deserved….. And I would have no problem calling them both morons in person. Arguing with someone who references biblical/ islamic quotations or plays devils advocate ( very badly) if thats what ‘doey’ is doing is a useless excercise. It is impossible to argue with those who do not apply logic or utilise it in their thinking. So Tanya Espania frame my comments how you wish-they were all i could muster in the face of such ignorance. Please use your real name and image when you do it though.
Calling someone a “moron” is stupid and ignorant. End of.
No it’s not stupid and ignorant- calling people on their idiotic behaviour and how they are presenting themselves is very much warranted. End of.
It isn’t though Jean….
Want to elaborate?
You say it is very much warranted.. I say it is not. Very simple… We have different opinions and views… For this you call people morons… You should take a look at the recent reports about online bullying Jean, just because someone differs from your view does not automatically warrant you to call them names, that is bullying.
You could have said their comments were morinical. At least then you’re not attacking the individual.
Moronical*
It’s not stupid to call someone a moron f they are in fact a moron. To call someone a moron in that instance is actually a clever thing to do, clever, perceptive, accurate, timely and appropriate.
what an awful way to be treated those involved with this case should be named and shamed what a way to be treated in this day and ageis it any wonder that a lot of crimes go unreported
all involved with this womans case should be named and shamed for what they put her through and were not doing their jobs properly when she needed help
Nobody knows if she’s telling the truth,
Naming and shaming would only add fuel to the fire
Doey
Her husband admitted it in front of the Gaurds how much more do you need to know she is telling the truth. Usually the Garuds will gloss over this kind of thing and say ‘ah now come on lads, can youse not sort this out?’ They do not prosecute or incarcerate willy nilly – would cost the state too much!!
The only part that doesn’t make sense to me is the part where she said she was advised by a solicitor that she could not return home because one of her children was born in the EU. I am assuming then that the child was not born in Ireland and if that is the case,she could absolutely go home. The husband could go to his country (where I assume the child was born) and possibly have the right to have her return with the child there. The reason I know this is because my friend is engaged to a polish girl (who is a nasty piece of work). When she was pregnant,she returned to Poland,had the baby there but then came back here afterwards. She constantly threatens to go back to Poland with their son and when he went for legal advice he was told that she could do that because the child was born there. System is a disaster!
According to her Natalie ,the husband admitted his guilt according to her
this year alone in Ireland 3 cases a few girls were found out to be falsely accusing men of rape
engaged and married are 2 different things in Ireland when it comes to parental rights
Andrea,
Dublin History
I think you will find that we are all EU citizens.
I think that they are referring to Irish as EU versus * Deborah as American.
I may be wrong we are speculating on a short article where names have been changed to protect – perhaps this is why EU is being used to allow some privacy and not pin people down. I suspect he and the kids are irish or why would they say she could be guilty of kidnapping??
Mind you even on a short article I see more thoughtfulness here than perhaps the gaurds, social welfare workers and others have shown!!
No I reiterated the article! and please do not attribute words to me that are not mine
‘According to her Natalie ,the husband admitted his guilt according to her
this year alone in Ireland 3 cases a few girls were found out to be falsely accusing men of rape’ Doey Walsh
If you have nothing sensible to say then you should leave the discussion and Troll elsewhere
They should not be – the clue is the title – PARENTAL!!
@Sandra,
Not shouting at you just the law and how archaic it is.
Sandra,the rights of unmarried fathers are disgraceful in this country and that is a whole article in itself. My point was that my friend can’t legally keep his child here even though his fiancee is another EU citizen. Had the baby been born here,he could! So I didn’t get why this lady couldn’t leave Ireland when neither of her children were born here and her husband isn’t Irish. One of her children is American and one was born in the EU but not here. If she had returned to America with her children the Irish government could not have demanded she return here because her child was not an Irish citizen. Regardless of parental rights.
I am saying I do not believe this woman based on a sob story, especially when some women do lie about it, if the evidence is there I am in no way going to defend the guy
What a magical world it would be if someone was guilty of something based upon your accusation alone
3 cases o women falsely accusing men of rape eh? Cool statistic to know, I wonder of you have any idea how many cases f rape go unreported here, because the system is skewed against victims? Any idea how many men have been convicted of rape, but avoid a custodial sentence because this country doesn’t believe that keeping a violent criminal of the streets is important? Any clue at all Dooey?
Doey,
I cannot find any statistic on false rape allegations for Ireland, but a survey was done in the UK in 2012. Findings:
‘there were 5,651 prosecutions for rape, and 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of
rape.’ (http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/research/perverting_course_of_justice_march_2013.pdf).
Considering that it is estimated that a large volume of rapes are not reported to either the gardai or the Rape Crisis Centre, then we can assume that the number of rapes that are either not reported or not prosecuted far, far outweigh the number of false accusations or false convictions.
Funny! In 2009 only 6.5% from all rape prosecutions have been finalized with conviction!!!
Why only 6.5%?
Why all those cases cannot pass through the objectivity of the Justice?!
If the rate is correct from those 5,651 prosecutions, 93.5 were FALSE ACCUSATIONS confirmed by the Courts!!!!!!???!!!!
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/mar/13/rape-convictions-low
Larentiu,
Did you actually read the report you linked to?
‘The government estimates that as many as 95% of rapes are never reported to the police at all.’
‘One of the most serious problems has been the initial handling of rape complaints by the police. The 2007 report by Her Majesty’s Chief Inspectorate and Her Majesty’s Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate, the independent inspectorates for the police and CPS, found that many officers dealing with rape victims had “very little training in responding to rape cases” and a “lack of awareness” of the need to follow the relevant guidance.
Victims were found to experience delays, “unpleasant environments”, inappropriate behaviour by professionals, insensitive questioning during interviews and “judgmental or disbelieving attitudes” when coming forward with complaints of rape.
As a result, between half and two-thirds of rape cases did not proceed beyond the investigation stage. The majority of victims decide to withdraw their complaints, while high levels of rape complaints are essentially ignored, with reports pointing to scepticism on the part of the police and “the view that the victim lacks credibility”.’
You really should consider writing a book, you could entitle it: ‘The Idiots Guide: How to Read an Article and COMPLETELY Misrepresent the Information Contained Therein.’
I’m sorry for using reversed social analysis.
This may lead to some disturbing truth and a very different perspective over the same facts.
And yes, that may be unhinged.
Very well said!!!!
Well, it seems beauty and intelligence does not have provide conscience.
No matter if you have 56.000 allegations you will still have 6.5% passing through courts and 93.5% not passing.
That’s not good for the mothers, sisters and daughters of 50.000 men wrongly accused of rape and wrongly prosecuted.
That’s reversed statistics and it hurts to see nobody really care about decent women in this world.
There are a lot more false accusations than that happen Doey. Only the guards realize they are clearly false accusations, or the rape unit find no evidence during a physical exam, or some very ill mental health patients have been known to make false claims – both men and women, young and old. I know of 2 claims made this year alone that were proven false. The accused was subjected to a horrible ordeal, but the guards are obliged to act even if they themselves know or suspect the claim false. Happens all the time and is far more frequent than is reported Doey.
Niall,
As far as I am aware there is no research available in Ireland detailing stats for false allegations of rape. However, there is a really recent UK report undertaken by the Crown Prosecution Service. Excerpt:
‘There were 121 suspects whose cases involved allegedly false rape complaints. Of these, 35 were prosecuted: 25 for perverting the course of justice and ten for wasting police time.’
This is over a 17 month period (January 2011 and May 2012). There are about 15,000 reported rapes in the UK annually (so 22,500 reported rapes for the same 7 month period) and approx. 9,000 convictions for rape. Further to this it is estimated by the UK government that 96% rapes go unreported. When a false accusation of rape is proven it should be treated as a very serious crime. However, considering all of this data on rape then 121 suspected false allegation cases is hardly high.
Apologies,
*17 month period and *95% rapes unreported.
Oh I’m not suggesting it’s comparable reality numerically realitycheque. I think Doey is referring to three cases that were publicised recently – false claims. I’m saying there are many more that go unreported in the press. I know of 2 alone this years that went unreported as the gardai handled the cases very sensitively so as not to have it publicised and not put the falsely accused through an even bigger ordeal.
However, I too believe clearly false accusations should be dealt with severely. There is a school of though out there that says anyone that makes a false accusation should receive the same sentence the false accused would have gotten for the crime if convicted. I agree with that.
The Sexual Offences Act 2003 (for England and Wales), the Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009 and the Sexual Offences (Northern Ireland) Order 2008 are relevant legislations in the United Kingdom.
According to a news report on BBC One presented in 12 November 2007, there were 85,000 women raped in the UK in the previous year, equating to about 230 cases every day. The 2006-07 British Crime Survey reports that 1 in every 200 women suffered from rape in that period. It also showed that only 800 people were convicted of rape crimes that same year, meaning that less than 1 in every 100 reports of rape led to a conviction.[85][86] According to a study in 2009 by the NSPCC on young people aged between 13-18, a third of girls and 16% of boys have experienced sexual violence and that as many as 250,000 teenage girls are suffering from abuse at any one time.[87][88] 12% of boys and 3% of girls reported committing sexual violence against their partners.[89]
A survey done by a third party research group on behalf of rape crisis centre The Havens found that almost half of UK men between the age of 18 and 25 do not consider it rape to force a woman who has changed her mind to continue sex. Almost 1 in 4 men claimed that it wasn’t rape even if a woman had said “no” at the start. A further 1 in 4 would try to have sex with someone they knew was unwilling. 5% would attempt to have sex if the woman was asleep and 6% if she were drunk.[90][91]
Less than 1 in every 100 reports of rape led to a conviction….all the rest were…what? False?
UK had 85.000 “rapes”/year and only 8.500 convictions?
What happen with 78.000 men and their mothers and sisters and daughters?
Who is going to heal them?
I’m sorry..my mistake!
800 convicted…out of 85.000?
what’s happening?
84.000 false rapes? Good God!
at least 80.000 women suffering because some other women are falsely accusing their sons, brothers and fathers? each year?
common. it must be a feminist joke!
Laurentiu,
This is the last time that I am going to draw your attention to the Guardian article that YOU posted and YOU insist in misrepresenting. No, the rapes that are unreported, unprosecuted and unconvicted are not all false rape claims. Read the article again. This is the last time that I will post a reply to you because you are being deliberately, DELIBERATELY misleading (and I rarely use capitals). If you are seriously suggesting that 95%plus are fals claims then there is something seriously wrong with you, in my opinion.
You have what looks to be a lovely family, I am sure you have friends and know lots of people, I hope that none of them ever have to listen to what you have to say because many of them WILL suffer such violence at some time in their lives.
That is my final comment to you, no matter what you continue to post.
Niall,
Absolutely fair points. I am sure there are false claims that never make the press, due to the sensitive nature of the issue. I think it is despicable that anyone should falsely accuse another person of a crime so despicable. Especially as mud, unfortunately, sticks. A person convicted of so doing should be heavily penalised. On the other hand, the chance of somebody getting away with a rape is so much higher and I dread to think what it would be like to have to live with the consequences of that kind of invasion of my personhood and body for the rest of my life. I absolutely appreciate your comment and think that we should take false allegations very seriously.
R U threatening me, realitycheque?
You are a very stupid man laurentiu.
What makes you say that?
What ever about the prohibitive laws the lack of humanity is utterly shocking and abhorrent
The Irish immigration authorities are clearly as ruthless as USA immigration
The woman, who is a US citizen
Pamela Izevbekhai springs to mind here. Even the minister for justice at the time Dermid Ahern fell for her lies, he even called her his new friend. Search youtube
Ms Izevbekhai sought asylum on the grounds that her daughters would be subjected to female genital mutilation if they were returned to Nigeria.
Totally different, Way off topic (not right – have not read the whole article but I am very aware of FGM and believe is serious and should not be carried out)
*Deborahs children are of an Irish father and were born (if I am not mistaken – please correct me if I am here) in Ireland and grew up here.
not necessarily. she could be married to a foreigner who has a work visa and be allowed stay here because of that.
Natalie,the father is from the EU according to the article but not Ireland.
No, Nathalie, Deborah’s children are of a EU citizen father, clearly NOT Irish, as it says the article that the couple moved to Ireland in 2001
Ummm the social workers were hostile towards her i find that hard to believe ffs why would they be if her story was true?
@Michele, In the UK the police can proceed with charges regardless of the complainant progressing the complaint. However the victim can be (not that they are usualy) can be charged with wasting police time.
@ Kieran. Not all social workers are bleeding heart liberals. Having worked as manager of a DV unit for the Equality and Diversity Section of the Council, we delt with the woman, her needs and her childrens needs (housing and funding) first. The DV unit was then moved from Equality and Diversity to the Housing Section of the Council. Unfortunately when it moved to the housing section (they were housing officers who were firstly social workers or solicitors and people of this ilk) the first thought was ‘Oh they are just looking for a new house’.
I am a firm believer (and I have said this on this subject before) Crime against the person should be delt with first then the state – The State does not bleed or have children to be uprooted and abused.
The State has duty of care to the children of this Irish man! If the mother goes to the states and father is in prison (where he belongs) the children may have to be put in care.
It is also possible and probable if the man were not remanded that due to escalation that the man will abuse his children as he would find it difficult to cope with them on his own.
I don’t think she said social worker, social welfare worker totally different
The article states he is an EU citizen, not an Irish man.
I see you right here Una – I have just reread the article but was answering the point above.
In the UK Sometimes, even if victims ask the police not to proceed any further with the case and or no longer wish to give evidence the case can still proceed, taking into account that it might endanger the victim and her/ his reasons for dropping charges. If there was physical evidence documented by the police who turned up on the night and witnessed an admission of guilt, it is so appalling the system allows this to happen. They should have probed why she was dropping charges and brought the case forward with the evidence or sought further proof from others (neighbours/ friends) There’s a public interest aspect too – if guilty he could go on to harm other women.
How much research has the Journal put into this? You cannot simply drop charges of rape. Only the dpp can request to withdraw such a charge and a judge would have to agree.
And are you fully sure those options were her only ones or were they the only ones she believed she had?
If you’re going to put in an exclusive like this you should really do some background research and put dome of your own details in.
You ask the relevant questions and suggest that this story is a little suspect. And you are one of the few here. I have suggested that this woman had options, she chose to let her husband go free so she could live herebon welfare. That’s my read of it. She could have gone back to the states with Ger children, as her husband would be a convicted felon, he would have no say in the matter. She chose not to exercise that option. This thread is full of very gullible people who don’t seem to have the abimuty to get to the nub if the story here and believe the sob story that is portrayed, by a quango with a view to getting their costly agenda centre stage.
Margaret, before you sneer at the stupidity of the other commenters here, you may want to correct your grammar and spelling (and I’m pretty sure “abimuty” isn’t even a word.)
And before you dismiss as gullible anyone who takes her story at face value, bear in mind that there are other possible motives for her wanting to keep the children in Ireland that have nothing to do with sponging off welfare. Perhaps her children are settled here and she’s actually putting their needs first? Only one of many possibilities, of course, but it’s nice to keep an open mind and not rush to judgement, as I’m sure you’d agree.
Putting her children’s needs first would and should involve putting their rapist father behind bars. No excuses. She chose to let him go free. There is more to this story than meets the eye, as there always is in quango, nameless, faceless case studies. Remember, these quangos have a self serving agendas that never let the truth get in the way of a good sob story.
And BTW you’d want to brush up your punctuation.
That may be what you and I would do, and I’m not at all convinced that you’re wrong about this.
But the stories of real people don’t always follow neat, predictable scripts that fit in with our own expectations of how people should act. Just because she has made choices we believe we wouldn’t have made does not mean she MUST be acting immorally or duplicitously.
The article is her side of the story. It may well be gullible to assume that it’s truthful.
So how can it not also be gullible to assume, with not one shred of doubt, that she must be lying?
Margaret, if the story is as it is presented, there is no guarantee he would have been a convicted felon, he hadn’t been tried at that point. And even if he had, given our pathetic justice system, he could have been out in a few years, and could then have gone after her for “kidnapping” their child.
I do think there’s more to the story than meets the eye, but on the face of it she would have been right to hesitate taking her children out of the country.
The victim doesn’t lay charges, and so can’t officially drop charges. It is either the guards or the DPP that lays and drops charges. However a victim can effectively have charges dropped by withdrawing their complaint, or signalling that they will not testify. No skin off the DPPs nose if the do decide, against proceeding. It’s very rare for victim witnesses to be compelled to testify.
So when we say a victim dropped the charges, what we mean is that the charges were dropped by the DPP on account of the victims desire to not have the case proceed.
Feel very sorry for this woman if that happened to a irish woman in the usa it be a different story ,i hope everything works out okay for her
The law is an ass, but the people who wrote/write it have made it illegal to disobey it. The individuals who had to deal with this situation could have shown more humanity, but they were legally obliged to act the way they did.
If we can have a whistleblowers law/act would it not be common sense to have a common sense law too? I understand the epidemic corruption in our political structures and a population prone to media encouraged hysterics might not lend itself to such a law, but it is surely something worth exploring I would think.
I actually got halfway through and had to stop, I went back after I got over that I wanted to be phsically sick.
She was free to go back to the states any time. Her European born child was free to go with her considering the childs father was in prison. This is just another case of ‘hard cases make poor law’.
Margaret, if she brought her European born child to America, and her husband had his court case and was not prosecuted, he would have been a free man and gone after her for “kidnapping ” his child, which would have meant she would have had to send the child back.
Can she not get citizenship for her child in america considering the maternal blood relation?
As far as I know, the children of American citizens are automatically American citizens, but the child is also an EU citizen. I presume its EU citizenship would be what comes into play here. But you’ve a point; it would probably have helped her cause.
That is unbelievably horrifying
Why is it not possible use a pollygraph to HELP find out if someone is telling the truth or not, many agencies in this country have been told the truth AND cock and bull stories for years from people who are trying to get services from the Irish State which they are not entitled to.
This story is a case in point, none of us commentators were actually there!
As the famous TV Judge Judy said to a “witness” “were you actually there? ” he answered “no” her reply “sit down”!!!
Polygraphs are horseshit, their accuracy is based on someone interpreting your heart rate & blood pressure and can be fooled or give false positives. If they were as accurate as proponents claim you’d have every witness in court hooked up to one.
But most of them dont speak english,only the two hands
@ Sandra,
I agree ‘could’ be etc but I reiterate
‘I may be wrong we are speculating on a short article where names have been changed to protect – perhaps this is why EU is being used to allow some privacy and not pin people down. I suspect he and the kids are irish or why would they say she could be guilty of kidnapping??
It does say in article Deboragh and her husband who is EU citizen , moved to Ireland. I assumed he wasn’t Irish.
Totally agree he pobally was irish
She’s not getting very good legal advice, she should take a case to the ECtHR.
Hey a new way to get get around pesky immigration laws!
There are two issues here – one of which is very clear, the other is doubtful as we only have one side to the story.
The first fact is neither person is Irish, she is American and he is from another EC country, she is only here on a holiday visa and MUST leave the EU every 180 days and try to convince the immigration officials she has some right to re-enter the EU when she comes back. I can’t see the US officials being so lenient if it was the other way around. He is from another EU country and presumably here because the money is better here than in his home country. Things that would grant them stay would be their history on the welfare state, claims, housing etc.
Secondly she ‘claims’ she was beaten and sexually assaulted, we are only hearing one side of the story and part of it too, where is she living now? does the father of her children pay towards their upbringing? Maybe she is just crying wolf, who knows? did she have medical reports done when she was ‘assaulted’
Whatever the outcome, the State should not be spending money on non-nationals problems, if a crime has been committed then it should be fast tracked in the courts, if he is found to be in the wrong then he is sentenced and returned to his home country to serve his time and she should be deported back to the States with her children. This country (and the UK) spend too much money looking after problems that are really not problems of the State or the Irish people.
If there is a problem with them and they are dealt with by way of kicking them out of the State then there is some positive benefits for the State and the remaining people. 1) there will be extra jobs that they were doing left for unemployed people 2) there would be one or two houses left empty for young people to buy or rent and move into, thus keeping the rent/purchase prices down 3) there would be 2 less children needing education here, freeing up student places and making classes smaller for teaching and finally 4 people less depending on the medical infrastructure of the State.
I might seem like I have a heart of stone but I work at the airport and see this kind of thing every day, I see the lies, I see the body language and I see great defence lawyers getting them a further stay of execution for another 12 months because the courts cannot deal with it. It has to stop, we should look at how other countries deal with other nationals and the ‘crimes’ they come up with, look at Thailand or Peru, do they pussy foot around with non nationals?
This fine Country has to take a stand, defend and look after the people who want to live and work here, share their joys and their culture but not to look after their problems which are not State generated. We need to free up resources, people and money and fight the wrong here, the drugs being imported, the gangs and the gun culture and make Ireland a better place for those who want to live here.
ANY excuse will do,,beats genital mutilation,or else just say your black oryour from romania ,you will have a lovely apartment in 5 mins, medical card in 10 ,then bring all your uncles,aunts ,brothers ,sisters ,friends ,ireland does not do deporting,only to their own real irish,shoot them all
I know the Immigrant Council of Ireland are a charity but are they all voluntary or are they paid employees.
All voluntary?? Are you serious?? It is a nice little number paid for by the taxpayer.
@ Brian O Cinneide, I was actually been facetious. My point been, if they weren’t fighting for immigrant rights they too may find themselves in overcrowded Dole Offices…
the UK really does deal with DV in a different way to Ireland, this I know but was surprised at how proacvtie the police are being of late This is a london boroughs way of dealing with things.
A series of dawn raids targeting domestic abusers were carried out across Haringey and the rest of London today.
Operation Athena was led by specially-trained officers of the police’s community safety units, and was timed to support White Ribbon Day, the international day for the elimination of violence against women, which was on Sunday.
Those targeted included prolific and dangerous offenders responsible for domestic violence and hate crime. The operation runs until Friday.
Haringey borough commander Sandra Looby said: “I want to reassure anyone affected by hate crime and domestic abuse or violence that we want to help you find a safer future.
“Please, speak out. I urge people – including friends and family of those involved – to tell us what is happening so that we can help them get the right support, as well as taking action to bring those responsible to justice.
“Operation Athena provides a glimpse of the ongoing work we are carrying out to deal with domestic abuse and hate crime and to protect the community in Haringey.”
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