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THE REFERENDUM TO abolish the Seanad takes place on 4 October with the campaign well under way as political parties and interest groups argue their case.
For some the Seanad is outdated and elitist, but for others the chamber provides a vital check on the government and the Dáil.
But what’s it all about? Here’s TheJournal.ie‘s handy guide to get you informed before you cast your vote on Friday.
The Seanad is one of three arms of the Oireachtas – our national parliament – which is responsible for making laws in Ireland.
The other two are the Dáil and the office of the President. In order for a proposed law or Bill to become a law or an Act it must be passed by both the Dáil and Seanad and signed by the President, Michael D Higgins. The Seanad has 60 members and because of the way it is formulated it usually has a government majority.
Eleven members of the Seanad are appointed by the Taoiseach of the day. Six are elected by graduates of two Irish universities – three by Trinity College Dublin and three by the National University of Ireland.
The rest – 43 – are elected from five special panels or vocational panels of nominees. Only members of the Oireachtas and designated ‘nominating bodies’ are entitled to nominate people to run. The electorate for these panels is made up of TDs, senators and local councillors.
There are five vocational panels in the areas of administration (public administration, social services and the voluntary sector), agriculture, culture and education, industry and commercial, and labour. Senators are elected by way of proportional representation.
With the electorate made up largely of politicians it is usually the main political parties which dominate the Seanad. At present the Seanad has 19 Fine Gael senators, 14 Fianna Fáil senators, 11 Labour senators, 3 Sinn Féin senators and 13 independent senators.
The Seanad must pass Bills in order for them to become laws. Senators, like TDs, can propose amendments to legislation that the government can either accept or vote down. The government majority in the upper house (the Dáil is known as the lower house) ensures that most of its legislative agenda is passed through the Seanad without issue.
However, if senators take issue with a certain Bill and do not want to pass it they can delay it for up to 90 days but cannot prevent it from becoming law after this time lapses. In the case of Money Bills – legislation which pertains to public spending and taxation – the Seanad cannot delay these bills but the Constitution does contain provisions for the Seanad to dispute whether or not a Bill is a Money Bill.
The Seanad can also instigate a referendum if the majority of its members believe the President should not sign a bill and should instead refer it to the people. This is contingent on at least a third of the Dáil’s membership also supporting this proposal.
Other functions of the upper house include 20 of its members being able to nominate a candidate for President. While a maximum of two of its members can become government ministers.
The programme for government states that the Fine Gael/Labour coalition will “prioritise putting to the people by referendum a number of urgent parliamentary reform issues” the first of which is abolition of the Seanad.
This proposal was contained in Fine Gael's general election manifesto in 2011 which pledged to hold a referendum within 12 months of assuming office. Labour's proposed putting the matter to the Constitutional Convention.
The proposal has its roots in a speech Enda Kenny gave at the Fine Gael Presidential Dinner in October 2009, just months after he had argued for reforming the house, when he said that it should be abolished.
Kenny said at the time that “our two-house Oireachtas is an odd man out in Europe” and in its ‘New Politics' published in March 2010, Fine Gael said Ireland is “significantly over-represented because of the Seanad” in comparison to Scandinavian countries and New Zealand.
The Sunday Independent recently reported that Fine Gael adviser Sean Faughnan 'was the driving force' behind the proposal but the party maintains that the referendum idea has its roots in a policy review carried out by current Environment Minister Phil Hogan and the subsequent New Politics document.
As the government, Fine Gael and Labour are campaigning for a Yes vote although most of their senators will be voting No. Some Labour TDs are also actively campaigning for the upper house to be retained.
Sinn Féin is also calling for a Yes leaving only Fianna Fáil of the four main political parties calling for a No vote. There is a split among independents with some calling for a No vote and some for a Yes.
There are a number of advocacy groups on both sides of the argument. Democracy Matters, whose number includes former Tánaiste Michael McDowell, want a No vote while One House, which includes the chairman of the Labour Relations Commission Kieran Mulvey, wants a Yes vote.
The referendum takes place on Friday, 4 October with polls opening at 7am and closing at 10pm.
You will be asked to vote Yes or No on the 32nd Amendment to the Constitution which proposes to abolish the Seanad. If you vote Yes then you are voting for the Seanad to be abolished. If you vote No then you are voting for the Seanad to be retained.
The question on the ballot paper boils down to abolish or keep. There is no option for reform. Those advocating a No vote say that the Seanad can be reformed if we vote No but the government has made no firm commitment to this although has indicated it might.
Fine Gael claims (on page 15 of this booklet) that abolishing the Seanad would save €20 million per year. This is based on €8.8 million being saved in direct costs such as salaries, expenses and staff with €9.3 million saved indirectly through ICT, procedural sections, as well as utilities, stationery, the parliamentary legal advisor and pensions costs.
This figure is disputed by the No campaign which argues that the Seanad costs less than €10 million per year or in Michael McDowell's words around the cost of a carton of milk for each citizen.
The House of the Oireachtas says it is no possible to calculate the amount of next actual savings that would arise from abolition. In the short-term pensioning off all 60 senators would probably see those costs rise initially.
Added to that that staff who currently work in the Seanad may be reallocated to work in the Dáil or with the enhanced committees and, it would be fair to say, the net costs of abolishing the Seanad cannot be accurately estimated at this point.
In short all references to the Seanad will be removed from the Constitution with references to the Houses of the Oireachtas replaced by references to Dáil Éireann. A more complete list of the changes that will come into effect can be found here.
The Seanad will then be abolished on the day before the Dáil meets after the next general election. This is important to note as some people are under the impression that the Seanad will be abolished immediately after the referendum if it passes. This is not the case.
Yes, of course. Any referendum that proposes to change the Constitution is a big deal and in this case we are proposing to change the Constitution and the way laws are made in this country in a very fundamental way.
This is a democracy, so it's important that you use your vote. Whatever you decide, make sure you exercise the franchise.
Pictures: Photocall Ireland
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One anonymous Minister said Dublin and Limerick are on a ‘knife-edge’. Could it be the same Minister who mentioned ‘tipping-points’ and a national lockdown a few weeks ago? The same Minister who said one Monday a few weeks back that ICU numbers had doubled over the weekend, when in fact they were 8 on the Friday and still 8 on Monday. There is 6 in ICU at the moment so we’ve actually had a 25% drop in ICU numbers if out Ministers want to throw figures around
@Anna Anna:
Here’s a figure Anna.
6 months.
6 months we’ve worked to keep the deaths down, to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed.
But sure some people want to get trashed in a niteclub.
So let’s throw that 6 months away.
@Brinster: #lockdowntheroads. Eliminate road deaths!
@Brinster: yeah all those elderly men love getting ‘trashed’ in the rural nightclubs. Great point
@Brinster: Ehh nightclubs aren’t opening!
@Sean O’ Donovan: Take in the roads, sorted.
@Brinster: hand in your driving licence! Some people die while driving!
@Brinster:
Pls don’t get overwhelmed by your anxieties. Let’s have some perspective and mature risk analysis. Smoking causes cancer, yet cigarettes are not banned. Depression leads to suicide, but only those at risk take anti depressants. Sugar causes obesity, yet it’s not rationed or banned. If we have the risks explained and help the sillies amongst us to do the right thing we will learn to live with Coronavirus. We cannot control all risks but we can manage them.
@Brinster: has nobody told you there is a difference between a pub and a nightclub, they are two totally different entities. Wake up and smell the coffee, nobody in their right mind expects nightclubs to open any time soon.
@Brinster: no one is calling for nightclubs to open. And I think everyone agrees that pubs that breach the guidelines should be shut immediately
@Brinster: how should we be closed so ? Sorry to say but life and the economy has to get back to normal, we have just started a recession, let’s see what damage that will cause.
@Brinster: who said anything about nightclubs??
@Anna Anna: Limerick on a knife edge, huh. 17 cases? And the country and city population for Limerick, 100,000, I for one don’t understand the logic.
Wouldn’t we be safe if we spent €9 on peanuts at the pubs?
@Sean O’ Donovan: yawn
@Sean O’ Donovan:
Would it be safer with hundreds crowded into a small area, all bananas drunk?
Or are you trying to say that that’ll never happen?
@Sean O’ Donovan: wtf is the obsession with pubs on here,it’s getting pathetic.meanwhile this virus is coming hard down the tracks for its second wave
@Brinster: Warning: Level 4 Biosafety lab virus is on the loose. Masks and sanitizer will save us all! Here’s one I knitted myself!There are hundreds and thousands packed into schools as is. While they’re not drunk, watch school kids walking home socially distancing, or you we can just close our eyes and just listen to what we’re being told.
@boss hogg: I don’t even drink. WTF is the obsession with destroying family businesses and scaring everyone with daily figures?
@Brinster: Even with isolated reported clusters when bars have reopened across Europe there has been no associated impact on hospitalizations. Denmark have been open a couple of months with 2am close and no impact. Same with majority of European countries.
@Sean O’ Donovan: the Irish cannot be trusted in pubs especially younger people,it’s a breeding ground for the virus and the young will spread it onto the elderly.the government needs to step in and subsidize the industry massively but they won’t
@boss hogg: you know it all….fair play
The pubs are going open they’re not going to open they are going to open the next time no they’re not going to open this time talk about psychological Warfare
@Paul Maguire: this was before 300 new cases announced tonight
@thomas patrick: but they would have had an indication what was coming because they’re most have been an increase in tests. This would have been suspected for 2 days at least.
@thomas patrick: do you really think the government didn’t know the numbers before they made the announcement?
@Paul Maguire: yeah this is a war. The journal, mainstream media and establishment are the foot soldiers. Irish ppl are the victims
Here is a summary of this article: “may not reopen”, “may not be allowed”, “will be allowed”, “will depend”, “but added”, “dilemma”, “may result”.
Right – so, if the numbers go up it means we won’t get to go to the pub. Let’s all be good boys and girls.
@Daragh Curtis: it’s genuinely pathetic how desperate people are for the pubs to reopen.
@Dan Jones: ya terrible that people want to get back to work to pay their bills and mortgages, so shocking.
@Tom Bombdadil: you can try mask it up with saying it’s for jobs but it’s just a load of people with nothing better to do than sit in a pub from mid day Saturday and Sunday and get wrecked. Once they’ve had there tipple they could care less because in reality that’s all they got going on for them.
Oh so they’re going to hold the pubs to ransom again! The government is like a strict teacher, behave yourselves, or you won’t get your treat!! Unbelievable!
@Freda Hanratty: So public policy should pay no regard to changes in case nos. or nos. in ICU?
@Thomas O’ Donnell: Only country in Europe to still have pubs fully closed!
@ShaneO’Mac: also one of the few countries in Europe not consistantly reporting deaths. (at least at the moment), but I suppose you didn’t know that, rather than choose to ignore it. It would be an interesting fact check for the journal, “Is it true that Ireland is the only country in Europe where pubs are not fully opened”
How did a death occur in mid September?? Wow they can predict when people die now!
@Sommer Church: Great Scott!
Is anyone even listening to them anymore? They’ve changed their minds so many times, and dangled that carrot in front of us so often, that nobody believes they will actually ever open the pubs. They only mention opening them just to pacify us, and then withdraw the promise again!
I was waiting to see how long it would be before they done yet another u turn. Flip flop flip flop all over again.
@Derek Anderson: long enough to make sure publicans were safely on their way home. Todays earlier announcement was for appeasement looks like.
They will not! Open pubs when they’re not open. I’ll storm down the doors and pull my own pint
@Ross: leave it to the experts… your pint would be all head
@Ross: you’re a grown man Ross. Act accordingly
OPEN THE POLLING STATIONS!!
Mid September? So the death occured in the future? I swear to god the proof reading on the journal is diabolical, there not one single artical that doesn’t have a f$ck up in it.
@John Doyle: the death occurred this week. It was only reported today
@Annie: it’s Tuesday..
Leave the pubs open but they do need to address the issues in Dublin and limerick. Restrict movement outside of Dublin and limerick for two weeks to see if it sorts out the rising numbers.
@Paddy Murray: I agree our monkeys in government are kicking the can down the road in regards to dublin, waiting now until nxt wk, more like waiting for the no.s to decrease and say Ah sure tis grand now again.
@Paddy Murray: christ they can’t do that! Where would all the ghouls in government go if they restrict Dublin?
@Paddy Murray: The numbers in Dublin are minuscule compared to its population. There is no need to lock Dublin down. What we are witnessing is the result of better and more widespread testing. Let’s maintain some sense of proportion. I’d love to know where the clusters are in Dublin. That would be helpful.
Was thinking the other day, most of Europe during the second World War had six years of misery, food shortages, no money, bombs being dropped, loved ones being killed in horrific numbers, and our generation are giving out about having to wear a mask and wash our hands, the pubs being closed and not being able to get a big mac for a few weeks. P. S. I ate and drank like a pig during lockdown, you can see it in my belly
What good does businesses closing do? if masks work so well, enfore them more, introduce on the spot fines, taking people out of work won’t solve anything 48hrs after announcing a recession.
Lockdown the Internet. Too many online covid experts.
It’s far too soon for the pubs to open
@Jonnie Marre: why exactly do you say that? They should have opened up long ago. Lockdowns by Council Local Electoral Areas or by Dail constituency areas is the way to go.
There’s no such thing as a ‘Wet Pub’
Pubs are Pubs.
Does Coveny mean Dublin will close, or is he threatening the whole country because he hasn’t the guts to do to Dublin, which was done to other counties. Another example of government skulduggery.
@John Farrant: if anything, they might impose restrictions on a targeted area of Dublin. If the majority of cases are in ballsbridge, it would be ludicrous to lock down clontarf
@John Farrant: The rates were far higher in Kildare than in Dublin and I think Govt genuinely feared a massive rise from community transmission. Dublin has over 1.2 million people. Locking down the entire city and county won’t be accepted unless a strong rationale is presented. Where are these cases exacted located and what is the risk? Judging by hospital admissions the risk is fairly low. The Govt need to cope on and explain the situation based on risk analysis which also takes into account the damage caused by lockdowns and Covid restrictions on hospital admissions. The solution to everything cannot be “lockdown”. The country will be bankrupted. And based on risk assessment per hospital admissions further lockdowns do not seem justified. Simply enforce the existing sensible guidelines.
@Anne Marie Devlin: lock down all of dublin for 3 weeks just to be sure
Pubs will be a thing of the past by the end of 2020
@WreckDefier: at the rate this government is going yes they will.
This reminds me of the situation prior to the Italy-Ireland rugby match and Cheltenham. The government stalled and stalled on locking things down, with the net result that there were far more cases and far more deaths.
@Kevin Farrell: Gotta give the illusion of spread. Don’t forget all the planes flying in, ferries arriving and “masks don’t work”.
@Kevin Farrell: so what is your answer lock the whole country down again?
The country is on its knees financially – there are many counties with no current cases. The answer is to lockdown on a Council Local Electoral Area or on a Dail Constituency basis, that is the only way we can do this and still Keep the country functioning economically.
There is clearly no point trying to debate this issue with Ireland’s answer to the Taliban who log on everyday and dominate the Journal’s Comments section.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
We had the longest lockdown of the EU and the restrictions are still in place. We had the numbers low and the virus was pretty much gone out of the country.
Nursing homes, meat plants and direct provision were called out as issues. Even travelling was called out.
The borders were never closed and only travelling Irish residents were penalised. The issues with meat plants and direct provision weren’t worked sufficiently.
The government wasted the longest lockdown in European (and many also shown what they think of the own rules in Clifden) and is now playing games with the livelihoods of many business owners who weren’t allowed to work for half a year…
I understand nightclubs be closed but why Ireland shouldn’t take notes from other countries with better stats is beyond me.
THEY ONLY SAID THEY COULD OPEN BECAUSE THEY KNEW THIS WAS COMING
Keep the pubs closed the government is giving in to the publicans pressure
@Noel Donohue: Well, you bviously don’t work in the industry, I’m 65+ and no income since 16th March (can’t live on the OAP)
“Oh no they won’t…”
@Fionn Condren:
Oh yes they will…. Oh no they won’t… Oh yes they will.. Like a feckin Pantomime!!
Jesus..let’s just lock down everything..and stay indoors ..do nothing ..jesus christ …
I have been taking the Dart/Train pretty regularly towards Bray, over the last number of Months, passing the testing Center, at the AViva statium, today is the first day, that I have witnessed any serious activity at it, there were lines of cars, backed up the street, but it’s the first day I have noticed any sort of this.
Ireland’s rate is below the U. K., but not below Scotlands.
What about the letter going around to all publicans asking them if they’re interested in selling?? And weatherspoons lurking in the shadows. There’s a hidden agenda rearing it’s ugly head
Death occurred in mid September.. We can tell the future now..
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