It goes without saying that the vast overwhelming majority of both men and women do not attack other human beings and do not need to be told not to hurt men, women, children or even animals.

It is just accepted by society that it is wrong to hurt one another.

The illusion from the likes of the White Ribbon campaign is that it is only men who are vicious, evil monsters who happen look like fathers, brothers, sons, uncles or husbands/boyfriends.

Yes men can be evil and have done some truly dreadful evil things in the past here in Ireland and across the world.

What we are trying to do here is show that women (while we adore, respect and admire the overwhelming vast majority of them) can also be vicious evil monsters too.

Violence of all forms should be tackled not just when the victim happens to be female and the abuser male

Rosa you sound like a family hating LGBT activist.

‘Toxic masculinity’ is usually a sign that a man has come from a single mother family.

“Nobody is saying men are not deserving of love, advocacy, support and compassion. But this is not the place for that conversation.”

I’ve searched many different feminist websites and I have never seen any good comments from feminists regarding males.

Of course you can prove me wrong by showing me a website, event, campaign, or a facebook page that has anything good to say about boys, men masculinity without wishing to change them.

I feel for Tom and his pain but really all violence is disgusting not just violence against women.

As a social worker, i actively seek out domestic violence in my assessments. However the tone of this campaign worries me cause it assumes all men have the propensity for violence against women. The Meagher story is one of sadness but at the same time, the view that normal looking men could or maybe dangerous to women is not constructive. Violence against women does stem from a society based on patriarchy, yet not all men benefit from patriarchal dividend, which this campaign does suggest underpins violence against women.

Aodhan Patriarchy theory is a load of cobblers.

According to feminists it is a system designed by men to benefit men.

Well I don’t know many men who’ve benefited from it but I know loads of men who’ve worked their arses off and made loads of money to be taken to the cleaners by their wives.

If violence against women stems from the patriarchy, where does womens violence against men stem from?

Also, the highest rates of domestic violence abuse occur in lesbian relationship. Does that too stem from the patriarchy?

As a fellow and female social worker, I am so disappointed with your response, have you actually taken time to read Tom’s full article in the Guardian? His campaign is not what you suggest it is. All current national discourse about domestic violence, including the Hse National guidance document, is written from a feminist perspective. I agree with most of it, but Tom’s voice is a welcome addition, reminding us that the vast majority of men, our brothers, sons, fathers abhor the idea of violence toward women. He gives a voice and advice to men, from a male perspective to combat domestic violence at every level of male company. This is so, so welcome. He gives a voice to every man who cares about women, which is thankfully, most men out there.

I have read the guardian article and what I teased out was the association between the normal theme of the perpetrator, which in the past has been used by feminist discourses as all men have the potential to be a rapist, which we now know is not the case. As a feminist researcher focusing on an ethic of care and Irish caring masculinities, Tom’s experience is great and certainly is far more authoritative than I. However my cautious words were not critical of the campaign but critical of past feminist discourses, as expressed above. Your disappointment in a colleague who raises a critical view of what is overall a good campaign, disappoints me too. Last I checked, it’s good to look at everything with a critical view and not take everything at face value.

I wish Tom and white ribbon all the best, however its probably better to address this issue with the men doing the violence as opposed to what social workers generally do, demonise them, ignore them and avoid dealing with the perpetrators and ask why they need to abuse women or partners.

Aodhana do you agree with a secret court system where based on your word a judge can remove children from parents based on hearsay. Must be a great time to be a social worker? Only growth industry left? I’ll bet you can’t wait to get to decide the “best interest” of a child. Someday you will be held accountable for your sociopathic family hating interfering evil.

Thank you for that reasoned response Aodhan.

Riddle me this, look at yourself in the mirror and just tell yourself you are a nice person and then maybe hug yourself. But remember there is no need to be bitter and stuff. Because I am a social worker, I must be an evil person, even sociopathic. Gotta love some peoples anger out there. But serious, a hug a day will make the demons go away….

I presume that is a compliment? Based on the secret courts system, we are very unreasonable people ;)

Aodhan you are a part of a system that I, unlike the vast majority of Irish people, know is a sick and disgusting child stealing family breaking evil. Your job depends on you not admitting that, even if you do know it. Your fake concern for people is very transparent to any sane person who ever came into contact with your profession. Just remember this, the magdalene laundries, the child abuse by the church, all these things came out and were eventually exposed. Your day will come. Keep that in mind the next time you see a child being kidnapped.

Agh now c’mon riddle me this, you need a hug. Based on your views I would suggest your are in need of your own support. Social work is a Multi-faceted job and honestly we don’t rob, steal or kidnap kids. You have been watching far too much chitty chitty bang bang. I am as critical of social work as you are but that doesn’t mean the work I do is abusive. As for my day of reckoning, should be fun. One tuning I like about the journal is its ability to bring some interesting views about a story. I have heard of this troll thing and get the feeling this might be one of those episodes. Remember Riddle me, mirror, a wee chat and hold yourself tight, even get in the fetal position and sing a bit, all very therapeutic methods…

The problem Glittergirl is according to them all men are possible rapists and murderers and that is what was said by Tom.

I strenuously object to having half the human race demonized in this manner, it is not good for anyone to have a label put on to them.

Mothers kill and abuse twice as many children as natural fathers do.

Would it be fair to put a label on every mother out there, “possible child abuser and murderer”.

Of course it wouldn’t but you can imagine the rage which would be directed at anyone who dared suggest it couldn’t you.

An entire gender besmirched by someone, the cheek!

The White Ribbon Campaign does the very same to ALL men but no one says a word about it!

I think what is needed is to remove gender from the equation of violence. Jean Tronto and other feminists have long argued, when considering caring and inequality, gender should not be the issue when considering the morality and ethics of caring, that often places women unequally as both mothers and Carers, to men.

The same approach should be considered regarding the issue of sexual violence whether it is men to women, women to women, women to men or men to men; is a certain level of our social structures deem such violence as private and irrelevant. This has been deemed mainly through women’s experiences of violence. They gave a violence to a relatively hidden reality. The issue of men’s abhorrence to domestic violence is nothing new, in Victorian times there was a back lash regarding men and violence in the home. The pioneer association and involvement of women in these groups was an example of this.

Tom’s experiences and outspokenness will, through white ribbon, bring more men into the debate. Yet as long as we have article 40 of the constitution, framing women’s role as a care/mother, we will always have the view of women as something other or second to men. Violence in the case of severe violence is still perpetrated by a small group of men, which we men abhor. That view however shouldn’t be a rally to arms about masculinity in general is dangerous to women. This is what I find most offensive, as a father of a daughter.

Aodhan you never answered the question. Do you support secret courts where children are regularly removed from the custody of their parents against their wishes? Parents who commited no crime, merely it is determined in secret that it is in the child’s “best intetest” to be removed from his natural family? Do you think this is the best thing for the people of this country? Do you support the introduction of forced adoptions as is the case in the UK?

Yes Aodhan but you do see the problem here don’t you.

There was a backlash against domestic violence by men against women but none for women against men.

And women can be violent.

I hope the White Ribbon campaign fails totally because it is aimed at demonizing ALL men.

It is run by feminists in order to shame all men and that will do nothing good.

Explain to me how on earth being a care giver/mother makes them second to men?

If that is what a woman wants to do then it is her CHOICE.

Women are not forced to be caregivers, they are not forced to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen!

I know feminists want to paint all women as beaten black and blue and at the mercy of their tyrannical husbands.

I would be in favour of removing most gender references from the Irish Constitution.

Jeez Aodhan I suffer reading the pseudo intellectual drivel you are spouting on this thread. What on earth is your point? Severe DV only comes from men? Right, I suppose the scissor sisters are an exception? Can you social workers not answer a straight question in English?

I really find it difficult to see why Aodhan and Riddle me are at opposite sides of the street as in truth, you are both singing from the same hymn sheet when you get beneath the surface waste.

Secret courts? Refer to Carol Coulter’s legal research which comments on family law cases and alleged abuse, as well as the state’s argument and evidence of alleged abuse. Judge decides the outcome via this evidence provided.

My job is objective and I deal with what concerned adults report to me, the views of the child and the views of the parents. Funnily enough I don’t wake up in the AM looking for children to drag in front of your alleged secret court system. It’s not for me to say whether I support a system per sae, as I am employed to work with children who are at risk, parents who need support and care plans that the state feel is acceptable to protect a child from various forms of abuse, harm, neglect and lack of care.

If you think this equates into a child kidnapper, that’s your views and I will respect them. Lots of families feel very hurt and let down by a system that sees alleged abuse a concern. However all citizens in Ireland should respect the history we have in this state when it comes to alleged abuse of children. It’s only recently we have put the child first and is tough for people to grasp this. who still see the child is best cared for in a family regardless of the ability of a parent to keep their child safe from harm.

We do need to support the parent, regardless of these vulnerabilities, and ensure kids who are taken into care can maintain relationships but can improve their own parenting skills.

Fair play to you lex for putting myself and Piddle me that in the same camp. I think for a user looking for a straight answer, it would be complimentary to Piddle me, to keep posting back riddles. To be honest any critical views, no matter how much debated, the Piddle seems to hit back that social work is just an evil profession. I think much will be discussed but hats off to White Ribbon, not all feminists are anti-men, and all too often men are seen as a users, when in fact abuse can take place in many relationships in traditional structures or same sex relationships. Think that is what I am getting at, what do you think Piddle me that?

Your responses made perfect sense to me. I read Carol’s work also. Most interesting.

I am bemused by the fact anyone would be trying to take you to task on anything you said, Aodhan.

Couple of points Aodhan. It isn’t an “alleged secret court system”. The court sittings have no public access apart from some minor reform minister Shatter only just introduced. Anyone falling foul of the system is gagged from ever speaking about it or they go to prison. The judge “decides based on evidence”. Of course you fail to mention that the evidence does not have prove beyond a reasonable doubt. It’s “balance of probability”. You do not have the presumption of innocent until proven guilty you have to prove your innocence in family court. And hearsay evidence is permissible unlike a criminal court. We are all against abuse of children but to remove a child against parents wishes is the worst thing that could ever happen a parent and this system is rotten to the core due to the facts I mentioned above. It’s a shadow secret legal system designed to benefit everyone except the families involved. As for children first even Emily Logan conceded that parents are in general the best defenders of childrens rights. The illegal referendum introduced by another social worker Frances Fitzgerald will allow people like you to decide the “best interest” of a child with the state supplanting the parent. It’s a scourge upon society and I pray the Supreme Court will act sensibly and throw out the result. We already had laws protecting children they were not enforced. Tricking the Irish people into giving away parental rights will be a disaster.

There there pig, there there. You keep believing that is still happening. Cause in your world, your just the business…

Riddle, if you tracked down Carol’s work, instead of trying to hold Aodhan to account for the bias in the system, you’d be far better of.

He has given you a major lead. Massive lead. He’s not disagreeing with you entirely – he is giving you serious information and you’re too angry to listen.

Listen. Track down her research. John Waters has an article on it, but you are attacking the WRONG person when you take a cut off Aodhan.

“Piddle” and “pig”? Delightful, this is a person I really want making decisions about my offspring.

Protip: if you want to protect children an important first step is not acting like one.

Jesus Christ Aodhan. I hope you know that I’m not some kind of a reactionary – like many in the MRA movement and Feminist movement too.

Yes, you do have to put up with shit on the net regardless. But I heard what you said, and I’m glad you said it. You know what, I learned something and appreciated your contribution. Don’t let this experience dissuade you from getting involved again. That would be a serious loss to me personally, and many others. Hope to come across you again.

I will check out Jean Tronto as a result of your linking.

Cheers Lex. Please do check out Joan Tronto and Moral Boundaries, as well as Carol Gilligan, Nel Noddings and Sarah Ruddick regarding an ethic of care. Riddle does have some valid points, it was unfortunately targeted in the wrong way. I would be very critical of social work and child protection settings. The children’s referendum was unfortunate and misleading. However secret courts conspiring against families, is at best nonsense. It’s not perfect but it’s nonsense.

Funny thing is I am presenting on DV at a conference re: mental health and recovery. Brought DV in as an issue needed for patients of mental health services and work well with women’s aid. Just at certain times the tone about men+DV is often reactionary than constructive.

Jaysus I must be annoying the traditional right wing of Irish masculinity. If you care to read the tread, well you might see I was actually trying to focus on different masculinities that are based on this hard and unemotional construct. As I am also a PhD student identify Irish caring masculinities and presenting to Social workers in Chicago next week. Last thing I would have expected was this group to argue or accuse me of being childish.

Although when you read your website and see the narrative men are victims of feminism, take a little look closer and you will see that Irish society is in fact designed for the pleasure of men and if anything all Irish men benefit from the patriarch dividend, which ensures women are second class citizens. Always wondered why men seem to think they need to be better represented, when what should be the case is, every man should be arguing for more equality with women in the work place, home place and institutional settings.

Mm. That’s why Irish men are killing themselves at five times the rate of Irish women, up from four times the rate in 2010 and two times the rate in 1970. That’s why Irish men are falling behind in education, employment, a whole range of metrics. That’s why Irish men lose their homes in 99% of divorces. Gotta love those patriarchal dividends.

You sunshine are part of the problem, and it’s a problem that will be fixed. Put that in your PhD and smoke it.

So as a man, also researching to discover men’s caring lives, that can go some way to show men they have alternative options regarding masculinity; I am the problem. Just about sums up where you chaps are functioning. You and I, as well as other men benefit from the patriarch dividend; it doesn’t mean we are untouched by other realities like poor educational outcomes or suicide. If I am part of the problem and your the solution; well god help the men you speak on behalf of.

“I am the problem.”
First hoenst words you’ve spoken in, I would guess, years.

“You and I, as well as other men benefit from the patriarch dividend”
Yes, let’s talk about patriarchy.

Patriarchy is a social system in which males are the primary authority figures central to social organization, occupying roles of political leadership, moral authority, and control of property, and where fathers hold authority over women and children. It implies the institutions of male rule and privilege, and entails female subordination. In feminist theory the concept of patriarchy often includes all the social mechanisms that reproduce and exert male dominance over women.

Essentially this narrative paints all men as permanent aggressors and all women as permanent victims. Patriarchy theory points to supposed earlier times when women were expected to raise children and stay at home – however even in such relationships, the man was not just expected but required to go out and provide for his family, and often required to give up his life in wars and through dangerous working conditions.

A reciprocal relationship existed, which did not favour men in any particular manner. Not to mention that a great many women have worked outside the home throughout history. Patriarchy theory is factually wrong – a far more accurate historical assessment would be to say that the overwhelming majority of men and women were treated equally poorly by a comparitively tiny group of wealthy and powerful men and women.

Feminists point to predominantly male leadership positions, while failing to acknowledge that the men in these positions almost never took actions or enacted policies which favoured men as a class over anyone else.

Even in the modern era, women, being in the majority, have the majority of the voting power and hence the majority of the power in society, yet these women for some reason continue to elect politicians based on merit rather than gender, which would be an unusual action to take en masse if there were in fact anything resembling an oppressive patriarchy keeping them subdued.

Despite these facts, patriarchy theory was, is and remains central to feminism.

“well god help the men you speak on behalf of”
Men don’t need god. They need the MHRM.

Seriously man I suggest you get out onto the streets and ask women themselves a simple question, I did it along with my fellow co-creator of http://www.menshumanrightsireland.org.

The simple question to ask women is,

“Are men at the mercy of their wives?”

I’ve done it and the results are astonishing really.

Literally every woman I spoke to either said, “Yes they are”.

Or said, “No” but changed their minds when I offered some proof.

I explained that 99% of men lose their homes when a woman decides he is surplus to requirements.

If a woman decides to get rid of her husband and goes to the police and makes a complaint about him he is almost automatically removed from the home.

Sometimes he gets back in again but usually once he’s gone that is it.

He loses his kids and home.

All it takes for a woman is one trip to a Gardai station.

Now flip that, if a man decided to do the same would he have any success in this matter?

We both know the answer to that don’t we!

Then we move to criminals.

2 people plan and execute a crime together when they get to court and are being sentenced.

One a man and the other a woman which one do you think is far more likely to get 40% of the punishment of the other.

Patriarchy designed by men to benefit men….well sunshine it is not benefiting men at all.

You want to change this cos you think women are second class citizens due to it?

Lex fair enough. I am extremely angry and in my view any sane person would be if they understood how sinister and evil the system is. I concede I projected this unfairly to Aodhan. I will research the material you have suggested.

In fairness I don’t think it’s about a higher morality on views here but more about opening up a debate on Irish masculinities. Riddle me, I agree the system is at times biased towards the state, however the majority of work should always be on child and family support, and not punishing the perceived deviant parent.

As for the men’s movement John and others have spoken about, I think we can categorically say, Irish women in 2014 Are not at the mercy of men. Women are very much disadvantaged by the social structures in place but words like mercy are realistically off base. I was interested by your types of questions and how your argument jumped many ships. Realistically the organisation you represent is valid but at times off base, when considering how men in Irish society are treated. Certainly the men I have spoken to have talked about caring and involvement with their children, which was long after their separations from their partners, where this was an issue.

I am focusing not on some socio-legal injustice, although recent WIT law department research highlighted how unequal men in family courts are treated, but more on men’s caring lives in families. Therefore a lot of what your bouncing back, while relevant to your epistemic argument, is more related to a crisis in masculinities, and the lose of the traditional role. Where as I am arguing for gender specific social policy that places care and support to care firmly in men’s lives, through equal policy & law

“Women are very much disadvantaged by the social structures in place ”

How so? This view of women as eternally oppressed victims is profoundly disempowering for women. Possibly the most disadvantageous social structure for women is feminism, which replaces individual success with collectivism which as always disempowers by making actual hard work irrelevant.

“Where as I am arguing for gender specific social policy that places care and support to care firmly in men’s lives, through equal policy & law”

Can you describe the substantive measures you’re referring to, although I must say I’m not holding my breath when your response to the many ways that society abuses and discards men was to talk about “patriarchal dividends”.

Ok, you got me, no matter what I say or validate you have another twist to skew your arguments. That’s the great thing about patriarchy, your just so damn right. You can quote and refer all you want from this point to that, I think it’s the fact your not willing to listen. Men and women are victims of gender based violence but also those from different class, ethnicities and sexualities too.

Your insistence to defend men, actually from your standpoint, looks like your harping back to traditional power structures and shouting down movements such as feminism, which like gay rights, disabled groups and children; were seen as a threat to your view of masculinity.

Tom Meagher and white ribbon campaign does have limitations and assist in wider debates. However on a whole does bring people into the debate. Yours solely looks at injustice through socio-legal discriminations of unmarried fathers, men and mental health, as well other institutional discriminations those men, who are not white, married or heterosexual face each day.

Contrary to your belief, women who have kids over time, face more time out of work and therefore more dependent on men. Most Welfare cuts hit women who care, cause they face being more responsible for kids.

What I am curious about is that if feminism is so restrictive too women, what framework would you use to assess women’s voice are heard? If the masculinity you argue is beneficial to women and and men; can you describe it more detail?

“Your insistence to defend men, actually from your standpoint, looks like your harping back to traditional power structures and shouting down movements such as feminism, which like gay rights, disabled groups and children; were seen as a threat to your view of masculinity. ”

No, although that is the tired old strawman that feminists usually try to wheel out. This is because of your internalised misandry which makes you automatically equate anything male with a mythical past were white men strode the earth with all the power and none of the responsibility, plantation owners sipping mint juleps.

Childish in its simplicity but perhaps that’s why so many find it compelling, the easiest lies to believe are the simplest. This internalised misandry is something the MHRM is working to remove.

The reality is that the movement is made up of men and women without regard to colour, race, or creed, sexual inclination, or whatever else. In fact some of our greatest theorists, thinkers, leaders and spokespeople are women. Lots of gay and trans dudes/girls as well, in fact they’re some of our strongest advocates. We also attract people from the fringes of societal behaviour like sex workers and doms, who are attacked with regularity by feminists.

Here’s a song composed by one of our members which does a decent job of outlining the general stance of the MHRM:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJpGM0-upAc

So as you can see we aim to adjust the gynocentric fabric of society through dialogues such as the one we’re having right now, as well as addressing the extant legal discrimination.

“Contrary to your belief, women who have kids over time, face more time out of work and therefore more dependent on men. Most Welfare cuts hit women who care, cause they face being more responsible for kids. ”
I totally support paid maternity leave and recognition among public and private entities of the allowances that must be made to accommodate family. However lets not characterise childraising as a punitive experience – quite a few women choose to stay at home and enjoy it, that’s a choice they should have too. We live in a community and rely on one another in a myriad of different ways, both men and women. Most important is that there are no barriers to anyone men or women to pursue their choices and do their best.

“What I am curious about is that if feminism is so restrictive too women, what framework would you use to assess women’s voice are heard? If the masculinity you argue is beneficial to women and and men; can you describe it more detail?”
I believe I asked a specific question above which you’ve failed to answer. If you could explain what substantive measures you’re referring to we might be able to further mutual understanding.

Aodhan I respect the fact that you concede the system is weighted too heavily in favour of the state. I would go further and say that it is an intolerable situation whereby based on the “reported concerns of an adult” a social worker can land someone in a court system which is secret and where innocence of the parents must be proved or risk losing their children. It is a most outrageous system wide open to abuse and widely abused. The investigation of crime must be performed by one authority, the gardai and people must be convicted in one place, a criminal court. Social workers should not have primary investigative capacity here. Removing a child from a parent against their wishes any other way is simply unacceptable. The Irish people are in general not aware of what is going on here and a common refrain is “what happened to innocent until proven guilty”. In any case my gripe is with the system not you and fair play to you for coming on here and engaging in debate.

Aodhan, you have failed to address genuine concerns Mens HumanrightsIreland has raised. In fact, you’ve been flippant and answered question with questions.

The issue is not simply of mens masculinities. The issue is also one of law, or lack thereof in many cases. I’m an unmarried father for example. I have a 2 year old daughter, I’m also a stay at home father, primary carer, though I work a few nights a week.

As it stands I have no rights whatsoever to my own flesh and blood. I can consent to nothing. If she had to be rushed to hospital tomorrow for an operation I could not give consent. She would have to be made a ward of the state – and the state would have to give consent – without my knowledge or consent either way. I would be but a stranger in law to her. Yet, I have a legal obligation to pay child support, yet no rights to my daughter and I to have a relationship. This is fact, not fiction or feminist theory. The Victorian laws you referred to above, I assume it’s the 1863 act, also made sure that I had no rights in that regard. The reasons for the law at the time were justified, but we are living in different times as you well know.

Now, I understand that women are generally the primary caregivers and are advantaged and disadvantaged by that. You also referred to article 40 of the constitution, framing women’s role as a care/mother. You must remember that that article does in fact give women protection too.

For example, a lad in my locality was recently told by the Department of Social welfare, that he had to go on a course, despite the fact he is the sole caregiver to his children, 3 days a week during the summer. He now has to leave his kids with his own parents and do it or face being cut off. He doesn’t have article 40.

I agree on the childrens referendum. It was crazy. The craziest aspect was that we had a referendum on the rights of children, yet children had no more a right to have a relationship with their own fathers after it, than before.

That last sentence is interchangeable – yet fathers had no more a right to have a relationship than after, than before.

Unmarried fathers I meant to say also.

Lex the new Children and Family Relationships Bill 2014 sort of addresses some of the concerns you raise about unmarried fathers rights, we’ll be watching it closely on this end. Of course it does nothing to help seperated and divorced fathers or address problems with parental alienation.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/radical-change-on-the-way-for-some-unmarried-fathers-1362187-Mar2014/

It;s a whitewash in actuality. I’m briefed on it. Thanks though – and I’ll be in touch soon.

Ok, with out going around in circles, i have clearly outlined my views and political standpoints when it comes to this issues of white ribbon, masculinity and violence against women. Not all men are a risk to women and therefore some political views that masculinity needs to be changed to make sure women are safe, is at times misleading.

In terms of feminism, I fully subscribe to the view of equality not based on gender differences but a widening of the debate around equality between partners of children, such as through care. Ethics of care outlines a theory that we should in society focus on the relationships in our lives than simple individualism or as some would say the possessive self. By doing so we have gender specific support such as paid paternity leave that does not discriminate on grounds of class or ethnicity. The work of Carol Gilligan, Joan Tronto and Virginia Held are very good reads when considering feminist ethics and morality.

On the issue of social work and child protection, I clarified we do not work in a secret state, children are abused in families and when children are at risk, the state needs to step in. These cases are reported and recorded through Carol Coulter’s work.

The fact that people have come back assuming I flip flop and don’t answer questions honestly is quite funny, cause all the answers are outlined in the thread. In terms of the Men’s Human Rights group, I find their views less than convincing and they about me. But that is what we call a democracy that allows debate. They seem stuck in a cycle of chasing their tales with anecdotes and studies from every part of the world and street to validate a basic point; men’s central position has been eroded and its not fair to men. So be it and I am sure its a valiant point. On the anecdote of having to go to do a courser when your a single Dad, I am sure single mothers or married couples face that issue too. Its called the neoliberal market and it sucks, as it doesn’t differentiate between genders but forces us all to work for less.

Such is. Bailing out now, Wish you chaps all the best….

You’re very good at cutting and pasting. I guess that’s something

I agree. I’m not sure why the campaign doesn’t hi-light both. I don’t think there should be separate campaigns for both genders and that there isn’t enough done with regard to helping men who are being abused within a relationship. Having said that, I think that this campaign is very personal to him and his own life experiences and therefore he is not intentionally excluding anyone, just doing what he can for a campaign he feels strongly about.

Unfortunately what you are saying is simply untrue. The suggestion that “domestic violence is gender blind and it is (an) established fact that men and women are just as likely as each other to be violent in relationships” is both factually and statistically incorrect. There is not question about it.
The prevalence of male violence against women in what you refer to as ‘the domestic setting’ is overwhelmingly male on female. Rape and sexual violence are also part of domestic violence. It might be a good idea before you make these kind of statements on a public forum that imply you know what you’re talking about, to do your research first.

“The prevalence of male violence against women in what you refer to as ‘the domestic setting’ is overwhelmingly male on female”

Do you have evidence for that?

On Tuesday 5th July 2005 the National Crime Council (NCC), in association with the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI), published the first ever large scale study undertaken to give an overview of the nature, extent and impact of domestic abuse against women and men in intimate partner relationships in Ireland. Among the notable findings are:

15% of women and 6% of men suffer severe domestic abuse
29% of women and 26% of men suffer domestic abuse when severe and
minor abuse are combined
13% of women and 13% of men suffer physical abuse
29% of women (1 in 3) and only 5% of men (1 in 20) report to the Gardaí

Nor are rape and sexual assault figures taken into account in DV research, they are separate issues so lets not conflate the two.

I also made am allowance for that in my OP when I acknowledged more women are sexually abused.

The issue I specifically referred to is DV.

Yes I do, and the trend is replicated worldwide. Nobody should be abused, ever. But perpetrating untruths and misinformation does nobody any favours.

Domestic violence – an issue of gender

“1 in 7 women in Ireland compared to 1 in 17 men experience severe domestic violence. Women are over twice as likely as men to have experienced severe physical abuse, seven times more likely to have experienced sexual abuse, and are more likely to experience serious injuries than men. (National Crime Council and ESRI, Domestic Abuse of Women and Men in Ireland, 2005)

90% of the more systematic, persistent and injurious violence that is instrumental in the maintenance of power, is perpetrated by men. (Male Victims of Domestic Violence: A Substantive and Methodology Research Review, Michael S. Kimmel, 2001)

A major study of police reports and crime surveys in the UK, USA and Canada found that between 90 and 97% of perpetrators of violence in intimate relationships are men. (Dobash and Dobash, Women, Violence and Social Change, 1992)

In the five years ending in March 2010, more than 312,100 defendants were prosecuted for domestic violence in the UK. 93% of defendants were men and 85% of victims were women. [Violence against Women Crime Report 2009-2010, UK Crown Prosecution Service]”

http://www.womensaid.ie/policy/natintstats.html

OK

““1 in 7 women in Ireland compared to 1 in 17 men experience severe domestic violence. Women are over twice as likely as men to have experienced severe physical abuse, seven times more likely to have experienced sexual abuse, and are more likely to experience serious injuries than men. (National Crime Council and ESRI, Domestic Abuse of Women and Men in Ireland, 2005)”

Reread the research for yourself instead of having it cherry picked. You are picking out severe domestic violence. I’m saying ALL domestic violence ALL forms of assault – not just sever. Look at the figures again and you’ll see they are close to even. I’ve quoted them in my first response to you. You can’t cherry pick figures like that. Domestic violence is domestic violence whether severe or not.

“90% of the more systematic, persistent and injurious violence that is instrumental in the maintenance of power, is perpetrated by men. (Male Victims of Domestic Violence: A Substantive and Methodology Research Review, Michael S. Kimmel, 2001)”

Kimmel is in the USA and carried out his research in the USA. What the hell has DV research in the USA got to do with Ireland?

“A major study of police reports and crime surveys in the UK, USA and Canada found that between 90 and 97% of perpetrators of violence in intimate relationships are men. (Dobash and Dobash, Women, Violence and Social Change, 1992)”

Eh, that’s the USA. What the hell use is American research in Ireland??

“In the five years ending in March 2010, more than 312,100 defendants were prosecuted for domestic violence in the UK. 93% of defendants were men and 85% of victims were women. [Violence against Women Crime Report 2009-2010, UK Crown Prosecution Service]””

Eh, that’s in the UK. What the hell has that got to do with Ireland?

I think you need to maybe take a step back and look at why you feel the need to troll a Journal.ie thread about Tom Meagher’s work with White Ribbon, in the aftermath of his wife’s rape and murder. A campaign which is not specifically about ‘domestic violence’ but all forms of male violence against women.
You also choose to do this anonymously, under a pseudonym, in the guise of a female FB account.
Really. Get help.

That’s also incorrect. Sexual violence is often part of the pattern of abuse and control in domestic violence.

Ah, resort to name calling. DV is gender blind. You have not disproved it, nor can you. The real question is why would you want to?

My concern around this campaign stems simply from the possibility of it potentially reinforcing that men are the perpetrators and women are not. Much like you’d have me believe. Go back to bed.

Tom’s wife was a direct victim of a male perpetrator, it is understandable that’s his angle. I’m sure he is aware and acknowledges female on male violence too. It’s natural when a loved one gets behind a campaign born out of a personal loss it will have a personal focus.

I accept that fully Maggie. However, I believe my OP accounted for that. Tragic as his circumstances are, it doesn’t mean one can’t express genuine concerns about the campaign. It is a campaign remember.

It’s a personal campaign as a result of his personal experience. He can’t speak about something that he has no experience of.

It’s part of a broader campaign Mary and it includes the DV aspect. Anyway, let’s see how he handles it tonight. And I wish him well.

I think you’re over thinkng it. A man is appearing on a chat show to talk about an issue close to his heart and you’re making a gender war out of it. At least hear the interview before you start criticising him

I’m not making a gender war out of it. I have expressed valid concerns. The white ribbon campaign, and I specifically separated DV as an issue, is an international campaign that focuses on DV against women as a central issue. That’s great, but it is questionable as to why it only focuses on women when the figures show women in Ireland are just as likely to be violent. How anyone could have an issue with that is more a matter for them, than I.

More children are killed by women than men. Fewer men are killed by women because they get stronger as they get older. If men were weaker the statistics would change to an enormous degree.

I don’t think that holds up, Pickart at all. More children are killed by women in the first 24 hours after birth. But overall, more children are killed by men – far more.

Anyway, that’s wildly off topic and not relevant.

“but it is questionable as to why it only focuses on women when the figures show women in Ireland are just as likely to be violent”

See that’s just blatantly untrue. You are correct that men do indeed experience abuse but they are three times more likely to inflict it than suffer it. The last major study on the area was published by the National Crime Council in 2005 and mentions 213,000 women have experienced severe abuse while 88,000 men have. It does happen but its certainly not on an equal footing. I don’t understand why you’re trying so hard to tear down Tom Meaghers support of this campaign which affected his life substantially.

Lex, you are incorrect.
http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/227441/children-most-often-killed-mothers

http://www.fact.on.ca/Info/info_vac.htm

http://www.australianmensrights.com/Domestic_Violence_Statistics-Child_Abuse_Australia/Women_who_murder_their_Children-Australian_Statistics.aspx

Lex is quite correct Rosa. If you had done any research on the matter you’d know that women are just as likely as men to initiate violence and are in the aggregate more violent. The bottom line is that Tom is saying that rapists aren’t monsters but they’re your brother, your father, your uncle and so on.

Which is a lunatic thing to say, demonising all men in true feminist fashion. Mind you don’t rape anyone today lads!

Besides women are just as capable of sexually assaulting men.

A new study challenged some widely held assumptions about coercion, sexual assault and gender. According to a paper published in the American Psychological Association journal, Psychology of Men and Masculinity, 43% of high school and college-aged men say they’ve had “unwanted sexual contact,” and 95% of those say a female acquaintance was the aggressor.

Researchers surveyed 284 young men and found that 18% reported sexual coercion by force, 31% said they were verbally coerced sex, and 26% said they’d experienced “unwanted seduction by sexual behaviors.” Half of those surveyed said they ended up having sex against their will, 10% said sex was attempted, and 40% said the coercion resulted in fondling or kissing.

Dr. Bryana French, who teaches counseling psychology and black studies at University of Missouri and co-authored the study, says that male victims are often less willing to describe sexual coercion in detail, “but when asked if it happened, they say it happened.”

French says that the study defined “sex” as oral, vaginal, or anal, so it’s possible that the sex didn’t involve an erection. But she also said that it’s not impossible for men to have an erection even if they don’t want to have sex. “Sometimes when women are experiencing sexual violence, their bodies respond in ways that don’t correspond to how they feel,” she said. “They can not want the experience to happen, even if their bodies said otherwise.”

http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/men-a0035915.pdf

Maggie, I read Tom’s article which he wrote a while back himself.

He is absolutely riddled with grief, which any of us would hope never to understand fully.

However, he is going along a path of blaming all men of being violent. That means that he is blaming himself for being violent since he is a man. It also means he is blaming me since I am a man.

It is wrong to blame all men for violence just as much as it would be wrong to blame all women for the violence against men.

Most studies – which are not biased – have shown violence to be similar rates for men and women. There are lots of examples of women killing men which just don’t seem to get the coverage that men killing women get.

Tom is on this path & I believe it is more about his personal grief than any other reason. I can understand that, but it is correct that some people put some perspective on it.

Lex, it is off topic, but men globally are 5 times more likely to die a violent death than a woman. I do think that stats show that more children are killed or abused by women than men. Given, more women care for children, but the stat stay true.

Graeme – you too are making precisely the same mistake as Rosa. The severity of abuse is more severe or women most of the time. But the level of initiated violence is the same. They have found this across multiple studies IN IRELAND. In fact they are finding it to be true everywhere.

Professor Kieran McKeown and Phillipa Kidd carried out research in Ireland for the Department of Health and children on domestic violence where men are concerned and they found the exact same thing. That domestic violence is initiated equally regardless of gender.

Now, please don’t tell me that I am trying to use Tom’s experience as some kind of platform or diminish his experiences. What I will be doing tonight when I’m watching the interview, is that I will be thinking equally of the fathers and their children that will just as likely be on the receiving end of domestic violence tonight, while the show is going out live. Only, the men and their children have no refuge or beds, or white ribbon campaign, or anything other than resistance no matter where they look or turn.

Find Professor McKeown’s report. It stands on it’s own two feet better than any research from the US or UK routinely referenced here in Ireland, when one may as well be quoting research from any country if that’s the case. I’m interested in Ireland and research from here. That research says men and women are just as likely to start on each other.

Your point ?

Figure it out for yourself.

Lex yourself and cohorts can put up what ever interpretation of statistics you like it doesn’t change the fact that all your doing is rent seeking the public purse.

I have put up proof. Research from Ireland, 2 different studies. Men and women are equally likely to start on each other violently in the home or in a relationship. So right now, around this country there are men and women hurting each other and the women are just as likely to instigate it.

I’m not drawing on research from half way around the world. It was done on our very own shores.

Seems to me you have a problem with denial you may wish to get checked out.

I have a problem with rent-seekers

Then try to be an adult about it, and make a valid argument based on research instead of supposition. It’s long past time we released we have a lot of violent men and women in Ireland. Big boys and girls that hit each other. That’s all. There’s no big deal.

But we should never tolerate anyone pretending it does or doesn’t happen – regardless of gender.

“I have a problem with rent-seekers”

It’s rare to find a feminist honest enough to admit that their ideology is mostly about taking taxpayers’ money.

Worried about our funding are we?

I believe it was €22,000,000 they got last year from Irish tax payers

Lex.. I am a woman. If i thought my friend (girl) was thumping you i would do everything in my power to stop her. I would not be much of a friend if i didnt tell her she is doing harm to you.

Thomas Meagher is saying that he wants the GOOD MEN out there to speak up if he sees any disrespect or violence shown towards women.

If i agree to help stamp out violence towards men by women, will you do the same for women.

@Sinead

“If i agree to help stamp out violence towards men by women, will you do the same for women.”

Why would you ever think I’m not a supporter of stamping out violence against women? I have a daughter myself and sister and nieces.

But I also have brothers and nephews.

It’s not either or.

I reject violence against everyone.

But I do appreciate your sentiment, but there’s no need to make a deal – I’m already on your side.

Menhumanrights. There are plenty of skeletons in my cupboard. Plenty!!!!! I dont know what you were trying to find lookin thro my profile. Maybe membership of a man hating club?? Dr Phil would be better able to explain that.

My darling husband and i set up the twitter acc after he bought me the phone. Its meant to be annonymous.

Any questions?

How many men get raped by women? Your comment is now trivialising sexual violence. Pathetic. There is no need to turn this into a men vs women argument. You and lex could both do with getting off your high horses. No one is victimising men here. Tom’s campaign is trying to encourage men to speak out and up against other male attitudes that are negative towards women. And I for one would apply same thinking to my attitude to men. I react very strongly against guys who laugh and joke about sleeping with the same ‘easy’ girl, my husband feels sorry for the girl but thinks there’s no point in trying to change their behaviour. And that’s the start of this awareness and attitude change that needs to happen. The guys know better but take advantage. Someone should speak to the girl about her insecurities and need to behave like that. Not wait for his go. Tom has made the point that his wife’s killer is what we all assume to be the monster, not someone we know. The extreme end of the sphere. Whereas there are more rapes, sexual assaults carried out by men who are known to the woman. Its not about suspecting every person but about recognising what is appropriate and what attitudes need to change. And that does apply to women as well. there is no need to get into a war of who has read most research. The campaign states what it is. It is incredibly worthwhile. Dont write it off or take people’s focus off it.

No one is trivialising anything. They are challenging aspects of that are causing unnecessary friction. I’m solely challenging the DV aspect. I’ve made that clear over and over again. The only trivialising going on is of DV itself.

Sarah Jane….what do people think rape is?

“Penetration”

Now lets change that a bit to “forced to penetrate”

Then the idea that women cannot rape changes to, “Yes they can rape”

The White Ribbon campaign makes this a “Men Vs Women” thing.

The White Ribbon campaign was made to make men feel ashamed of themselves because they are men.

I extremely rarely see negative attitudes towards women but I see plenty towards men, why do you think the male suicide rates are so high?

It is because our society is toxic for boys and men.

The killer of Tom’s wife was a monster, he was someone people knew and he had been convicted of 5 previous rapes before, why was he allowed out.

I’d love to see his family history and to know if his father was around at all.

The White Ribbon campaign makes ever single man a suspect rapist and murderer.

Ah now john Gormley, on one hand you are saying that we are painting all men with one brush, vilifying all men etc. And I agree that all men are not responsible for the acts of a few but then you try to insinuate that women are responsible for high male suicide rates?? where the hell did that come from?

He didn’t say or insinuate that.

Cultural attitudes towards men however certainly play a part. For example some research shows that people are twelve times more likely to commit suicide when suffering domestic violence, yet there’s almost no help for men suffering domestic and intimate partner violence. They’re more likely to be sent on anger management courses.

These cultural attitudes have to change, and the first step is a recognition that domestic and intimate partner violence is a non gendered issue. In this regard the “men stop attacking women” white ribbon campaign is not just missing half the problem but actively contributing towards cultural attitudes that see men as the primary aggressor in all cases.

You are right Mens Humanrightsireland, I misread John’s comment. Sorry. John, With regard to Bayley’s upbringing, he was brought up by both parents and lived in a house with his 4 younger siblings. I don’t think anyone is responsible for his actions except himself. What I do find frightening is that despite having completed two sex offenders treatment programes while serving 2 separate sentances for rape he still proceeded to rape and kill Jill Meagher.

Agreed. There was a similar situation in Galway a few years back when that Swiss girl was raped and murdered. The perpetrator had a string of previous convictions as long as your arm, including violent assaults with a deadly weapon and suspected involvement in another murder, yet for some reason he was loose walking the streets. More evidence that the system and the theories behind it need to be changed.

That is to do with the numbers of men compared to women who report abuse.

We are tearing down the White Ribbon which is a disgusting organisation because it vilifies men solely.

I don’t understand how you cannot see that demonising an entire gender is not okay regardless of what Tom went through.

I have every sympathy for Tom’s plight but attacking all men will not do any good at all.

Violent murdering rapists are not going to give a damn about the White Ribbon campaign.

The only ones who’ll be shamed is ordinary men on the street and boys.

You are missing the point entirely. The research shows women in a home or relationship are equally likely to get violent. This is fact and there is research from Ireland to prove it. Women have help structures in place albeit very limited, and are almost guaranteed to get the kids too – even when she’s the violent one she’ll still get the kids.

Either way – it’ not a competition. It’s a recognition that men too – in massive numbers in Ireland are also the victims of severe domestic abuse and people like Rosa don’t want to acknowledge that because they think that in itself is an attack on women.

It isn’t. I’m attacking the stereotype. That stereotype is firmly ingrained in the public mind, but it’s beginning to falter. White ribbon campaign just adds to the stereotype and is on a DV front, highly irresponsible.

You’re quite right.

Women are considerably less vulnerable.

They have domestic violence shelters and the whole support of the state and innumerable charities and support groups to help them.

Men on the other hand have nowhere to go, nobody to hep them, and if they call the guards they’re likely to be the ones arrested, never mind those who refuse to hit back because they’re been raised to believe that women are somehow better.

Is it any wonder men are killing themselves at five times the rate of women in this country, while Una Mullally enjoys her cafe latte grande.

When women attack men they use the sneak attack instead of trying to out box a man.

They are also likely to attack men when they are asleep or drunk/drugged.

We men are taught from an early age it is not okay to hit girls.

However girls are not taught that it is okay to hit boys.

Sean Linda Condon – where does any post attempt to mitigate violence against women?

If you dare question feminists then you obviously are a woman hater and someone who wishes to get women back into the kitchen barefoot and pregnant.

I refuse to even interact with them. It’s shocking the kinds of opinions and attitudes that lurk just under the surface but are brought out into the light when this subject matter arises.

I agree, your opinions are shocking, bigoted and offensive.

“toxic masculinity that leaves a trail of raped and battered women in it’s wake”..?

Really?

Masculinity isn’t toxic. Your view of it certainly is however.

It happens on every single Journal thread on DV or any other issue to do with women’s rights. It’s disheartening in the extreme. It stifles debate and I pity any woman in a DV situation who comes to these threads for support. I’m pretty disgusted the MRA brigade are jumping on someone like Tom Meagher to further their agenda, it’s missing the point on a wilfully epic scale.

If only he wasn’t trying to blame all men and boys for the actions of a monster we wouldn’t be here.

Yet, many men will think elements of the white ribbon brigade will miss the point on a ‘wilfully epic scale’.

I do agree though. Far too many articles on both here and other platforms are overrun with angry teens taking the piss on womens issues. I don’t agree with that either.

Please cite your sources. International research consistently shows that gender based violence is overwhelmingly experienced by women, perpetrated by men. Female victims experience the severest injuries of domestic violence when compared with men. Just look at emergency department presentations and coroners reports in Ireland alone as evidence of this. Male victims of domestic violence obviously exist, I have worked with many, but they are vastly outnumbered by their female counterparts as all global research shows.

Gender based violence, or violence generally?

Sources, sure:

In the largest collection of studies on intimate partner violence known, Martin Fiebert of the California State University, Longbeach offers the following:

SUMMARY: This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: 221 empirical studies and 65 reviews and/or analyses in dozens of countries, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600.

Source: http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

Amen.ie, the sole Irish charity dedicated to helping men and boys suffering from domestic abuse, reports similar findings.

On Tuesday 5th July 2005 the National Crime Council (NCC), in association with the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI), published the first ever large scale study undertaken to give an overview of the nature, extent and impact of domestic abuse against women and men in intimate partner relationships in Ireland. Among the notable findings are:

29% of women and 26% of men suffer domestic abuse when severe and minor abuse are combined
13% of women and 13% of men suffer physical abuse
29% of women (1 in 3) and only 5% of men (1 in 20) report to the Gardaí
Of those turned away from refuges, 46% were for reasons other than the refuges being full.

According to the Government Departments (Health and Justice) who have responsibilities in this area, the NCC study is the definitive piece of research on domestic violence in this country.

Other Irish research on domestic violence
The results of the NCC study relating to gender prevalence broadly reflect the findings of the three other two-sex studies carried out in this country (for ACCORD; MRCS and the Department of Health).

The MRCS report (2001), based on a survey of 530 clients, found that, where domestic violence occurs, mutual violence accounts for 33% of cases, female perpetrated violence accounts for 41% and male perpetrated violence for 26%.
Similarly, the ACCORD research (2003), based on a survey of 1500 clients, found that women were perpetrators in 30% of domestic violence cases, men were perpetrators in 23% of cases and mutual violence accounted for 48%. An interesting feature of this study, which involved couples attending counseling, was that 84% of women and 74% of men agreed with their partner’s response to this question, suggesting that the self-reported prevalence is quite reliable.
A Department of Health study found, where domestic violence occurs, (50%) was mutual with the remainder divided equally between women-only and men-only perpetration.

These findings reflect the results of all independent two-sex studies carried out world-wide.

Slightly more women than men suffer serious injury from domestic abuse, usually in a 2:3 ratio, because women are physically smaller. However as the facts linked above indicate, women are just as violent as men if not more so.

That you’re a trained social worker and are unaware of these facts is frankly horrific. God alone knows how much damage has been caused already by social workers, beaurocrats, judges and guards sailing along blissfully wearing feminist-manufactured blindfolds.

Five to one, that’s the ratio of male to female suicides in this country.

She meant toxic masculinity as in that type of masculinity. Not that being masculine is toxic. Flip me.

He’s not!!!!!!! For crying out loud he’s trying to get men to speak out and stand up against the few that perpetuate the negative and aggressive attitudes and behaviours!!!!!! Stop playing the victim. This isnt a man-hunt!!

Yes he is, he is blaming all men for the actions of a small few.

The White Ribbon campaign is anti-male because it focuses solely on men as perpetrators of violence instead of suggesting ALL violence should be ended.

Glittergirl – I have given studies above. If you bothered to read them you wouldn’t be asking for research.

Well there’s plenty of toxic femininity with a healthy dose of utter denial knocking about these threads then.

Lex.. There none of us women in any sort denial as to whats happening to men as a result of evil women out there..

Women have many negative traits.
Slyness, scheming, lying, manipulation etc. Denial is NOT of them. Thats a man thing.. Dont deny it.

I find your comment fairly misogynistic Sinead, but as far as feminism goes, they’ve turned denial into a science… http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V74-gender-symmetry-with-gramham-Kevan-Method%208-.pdf

Menshumansrights – I was peripherally involved with the 2005 study! How about you read it before bashing my qualifications?! The 2005 study clearly states that 1 in 7 Irish women, compared to 1 in 17 Irish men experience severe domestic violence. It also found that women were over twice as likely as men to have experienced severe physical abuse, seven times more likely to have experienced sexual abuse and are more likely to experience serious injuries than men. Are you in agreement with the study on those points?! See http://www.womensaid.ie/policy/natintstats.html for further actual evidence. As for the fact that you are citing Fieberts analysis?! Many of the authors he reviewed disagreed with his interpretation of their work and Kimmel (2001) said Fieberts work couldn’t be considered a scholarly undertaking.

Authors who wrote lies are disagreeing with his anlysis of their work, amazing really who think someone could dare to disagree with it.

Kimmel is a feminist who has been bashing men for years, he’s made a good career out of it.