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Swiss francs. Rosmary via Flickr/Creative Commmons

Switzerland is to vote on giving every citizen an unconditional income of €2,000

This is the result of a system where proposals which receive 100,000 signatures can be voted on by the public.

SWITZERLAND HAS A very direct style of democracy.

For example, changes to the constitution, or “popular initiatives”, can be proposed by members of the public and are voted on if more than 100,000 people sign them. If a majority of voters and cantons (Swiss states) agree, the change can be come law.

This system not only allows individual citizens a high degree of control of their laws, but also means that more unorthodox ideas become referendum issues.

“Fat cat”

Recently, there has been a spate of popular initiatives designed to curb inequality in the country. Earlier this year Swiss voters agreed to an idea proposed by entrepreneur Thomas Minder that limited executive (in his words, “fat cat”) salaries of companies listed on the Swiss stock market.

Next month voters will decide on the 1:12 Initiative, which aims to limit the salaries of CEOs to 12 times the salary of their company’s lowest paid employee.

However, there’s an even more radical proposal in the works than this. Earlier this month an initiative aimed at giving every Swiss adult a “basic income” that would “ensure a dignified existence and participation in the public life of the whole population” gained enough support to qualify for a referendum.

The amount suggested is 2,500 francs (€2,033) a month.

Debate sparked in other countries

While most observers think that the vote is a longshot, it has certainly sparked debate — and not just in Switzerland. Writing for USA Today, Duncan Black said that a “minimum income” should be considered for the U.S.

“It’s pretty clear that the most efficient way to improve the lives of people is to guarantee a minimum income,” Black concludes.

However, Black understates just how radical the proposal is. We spoke to Daniel Straub, one of the people behind the initiative, to get a better understanding of what the proposal really means, why it is so radical, and what the world could learn from it.

Q: Can you tell me a little bit about how the idea came to be?

DS: A lot of people have proposed this idea. For example Thomas Paine in the United States or also the famous psychologist Erich Fromm has written about it in the sixties.

Q: Why choose a minimum income rather than, say, a higher minimum wage?

A: We are not proposing a minimum income — we are proposing an unconditional income.

A minimum wage reduces freedom — because it is an additional rule. It tries to fix a system that has been outdated for a while. It is time to partly disconnect human labour and income. We are living in a time where machines do a lot of the manual labour — that is great, we should be celebrating.

Q: How was the figure of 2,500 Swiss francs settled on? What standard of living does this buy in Switzerland?

A: That depends where in Switzerland you live. On average it is enough for a modest lifestyle.

image

How Ireland ranks against Switzerland in terms of the Consumer Price Index, which gives an indication of the price of living, to put the €2,000 allowance in context. Click here to see a larger version. (Image Credit: Numbeo.com)

Q: What effect would you expect the minimum income to have on Swiss government expenditure?

A: The unconditional income in Switzerland means that a third of the GDP would be distributed unconditionally. But I don’t count that as government expenditure because it is immediately distributed to the people who live in this society. It means less government power because each individual can decide how to spend the money.

Q: Some people compare it to Milton Friedman’s negative income tax, do you think that comparison works?

A: We go a step further than Friedman with the unconditionality. This would lead to a paradigm change. Not the needy get an income from the community but everybody.

Q: There have been a variety of initiatives recently that appear to be aimed at limiting inequality in Switzerland, from the 1:12 initiative to Thomas Minder’s “against rip-off salaries” referendum. Why do you think this is happening?

A: People seem to be unhappy with the rising inequality. The other initiatives try to put a band-aid on an outdated system. We are proposing a new system.

Q: On the surface of it, Switzerland is a good place to live, with a high quality of life, relatively high salaries, and good public services. Why do you need to take these big steps to rearrange society?

A: Switzerland has incredible material resources. But we are not using them in a smart way. A lot of people are stressed and there is a lot of fear. Our resources don’t lead to the freedom they could. And I am not saying that this freedom is easy — but it could lead to more meaningful lives. If more people start to ask what they really want to do with their lives, Switzerland will become an even more beautiful place to live.

Q: Switzerland is a unique country in a lot of ways. Do you think that other countries could learn from both its referendum system and the egalitarian initiatives enabled by it?

A: I think that our system of semi-direct democracy leads to more involvement by the public — that is a good thing. What other effects it would have on a system such as the U.S. I do not dare to predict.

(The interview transcript has been edited for clarity, and links have been added to help explain Straub’s responses.)

- Adam Taylor

Read: Which county has the lowest disposable income per person? >

More: Consumer confidence is up, but disposable income is down, says report >

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    Mute Lee Owens
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:42 AM

    Thats it,iam moving to Zurich…

    183
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    Mute J.Rudd
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    Oct 28th 2013, 12:07 PM

    Direct Democracy in action.
    Like it or not – it gives more power back to the people.
    …No wonder FF, FG. Labour, The Socialists (now hiding under their next new invented name “Anti-Austerity Alliance”) hate the idea of it.

    29
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    Mute LeDroit
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:04 AM

    Before the lefties go rabid with delight at the thought of more Free Money, Switzerland also has one of the lowest income taxes in the OECD. Can we have that too or would that be ‘unfair’ and ‘unequal’?

    Friedman coupled his basic income idea with a negative income tax to encourage the lowest paid not to rely on welfare and a flat tax to incentivise those in work to stay and be more productive. Those two measures actually funded the BI. Otherwise, with a punitive rate of tax like we have now (52-55%), why wouldn’t we all stay home and watch Jeremy Kyle?

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    Mute Gerry Mccormack
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:49 AM

    Typical right wing view. All for one and all for one. Sharing is best

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    Mute Kevin Collins
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    Oct 29th 2013, 6:19 AM

    Friedman and Hayek’s neo-liberal economic model has long since been discredited and has all but been consigned to the dustbin of economic history that it belongs in. Free markets benefit only those that control the factors of production, ie the rich.

    Keynes FTW.

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    Mute margaret
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:06 AM

    In Ireland an enormous percentage of the population are drawing down that sum anyway n an a myriad of different benefits. Administratively, it would be simpler and probably in the long term cheaper, to give everybody a sum and leave it at that and fire the of the department of social protection who would be surplus to requirements.
    Privitise hospitals, compulary insurance and a flat tax and this country would be on it’d feet in no time with no need for the 300,000 public servants whose pay and pensions are crippling the country

    126
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    Mute Rory Flood
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:13 AM

    Yeh, because unregulated neoliberalism has worked so well for this country so far… Sure sell off everything the state owns for magic beans and watch us get even more f*cked over.

    An idea like this could only really work in Switzerland as corruption and bureaucracy would only destroy such an initiative here. Also, our form of governance means that we have to wait be told on what and how we should vote…

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    Mute Mark Campbell
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:16 AM

    Well said,people need to stop scrounging off the state and start taking responsibility for themselves.

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:48 AM

    Margaret – All opinion stated as fact.

    An “enormous percentage”? I don’t think so. It’s a very definite statement based on what? Have the guts to put actual figures down (and cite sources) rather than using lazy, misleading language.

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    Mute Tom Sullivan
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:53 AM

    Margaret, compulsory insurance means more expensive insurance. People who wish to pay as they go should be entitled to and those that wish to be insured can do so.

    16
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    Mute Tom Sullivan
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:54 AM

    People will stop scrounging from the state when the state stops scrounging off the people.

    32
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    Mute margaret
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:45 AM

    @tony canning. Guts has nothing to do with it, a short Google will get you the exact figures. 2.4 million people on social welfare, 22 billion distributed between them. Absolutely nuts!!

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    Mute margaret
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:47 AM

    @tom. Not necessarily. The dutch system has compulsary insurance with a cap on profits. Governments role should be oversight on behalf of the citizen not the insurance companies.

    13
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    Mute Marc Euclio O'Connell
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:54 AM

    “2.4 million people on social welfare”

    I love how you see that as a bad thing. Not the unemployed numbers but the very fact that we have such a strong and wide social safety net. That number is proof that not everything has failed here.

    5
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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:57 AM

    @Margaret – WRONG. Social PROTECTION is not the same as social WELFARE. For example, while people love to attack these budgets and particularly the unemployed, they rarely look at the ACTUAL numbers. JSA accounts for 0.85% of the deductions from a PAYE worker on €36K average irish salary – amounting to about €310 per year.

    The total SP budget is nearly €2300 from that same PAYE worker.

    Time to stop trotting out suggestions that the unemployed are not interested in working or that they represent “massive” costs to the state.

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    Mute margaret
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:59 AM

    In sure a Stalinist like you won’t be truly happy until 100% of the population is unemployed, or better still, employed by collectives and run by a politburo. A failed system but some idiots never learn.

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    Mute margaret
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:07 AM

    @,tony. Im certainly not attacking the short term unemployed, but 22 billion is an awful lot of money that had to be borrowed to pay for what amounts to a lifestyle choice by many. There are 50 different types of payments and thousands of employees paid to administer all these payments. My point is that would it be better to spend this money as a flat payment to everybody, cut out the 50 different types and the thousands paid to assess and deliver this. It’s a thought.

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    Mute Marc Euclio O'Connell
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:26 AM

    Yeah Margret, I’m a damned communist right? How did you get Stalinism out of what I said. Silly little neo-lib.

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    Mute Marc Euclio O'Connell
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:31 AM

    “A failed system but some idiots never learn.”

    And lets be very clear about this. It was neo-liberal, unregulated capitalism that failed in 2008. Not social democracy. The welfare state is your victim. You are the one trumpeting a failed system. People like you take the line that the only solution to our woes is the repeat the past and expect some magical different result. To me you are nothing more than a greedy child.

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    Mute Marc Euclio O'Connell
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:34 AM

    “for what amounts to a lifestyle choice by many.”

    Funny how all these lazy people suddenly appeared in 2008 isn’t it? The 97% who were employed beforehand must have gone on holidays or something.

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    Mute margaret
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:47 AM

    @marc. It wasn’t. Neoliberalism/capitalism would have let the banks fail. Interfering governments socialised the losses.

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    Mute Gerry Mccormack
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    Oct 28th 2013, 7:10 PM

    Well said Marc!!

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:31 PM

    But there you go again Margaret. Confusing unemployment with social protection. JSA amounts to ~€3bn of that €21bn.

    I absolutely agree though that there is far too much money wasted in administration.

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    Mute Dwickedchicken
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:49 AM

    I still don’t know what a tracker mortgage is!!!

    67
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    Mute Little Jim
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:03 AM

    A tracker mortgage possesses a certain set of skills.
    It will track you.
    It will find you.
    It may kill you.

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    Mute Gerry Mccormack
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:51 AM

    Give it back Jim

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    Mute Marc Euclio O'Connell
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:08 AM

    From an economic sense this is absolute inspired. Everyone, irrespective of any other factor, has 2000 to spend a month. The aggregate demand in their economy is going to explode. It’s funny that Friedman comes up because this is the most Keynesian thing imaginable, a continuous governmental stimilus of the consumer economy.

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    Mute Steve
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:50 AM

    Trust me, 2500 francs per month would not get you the same as it would in Dublin. Considering rent is nearly twice as much and a big mac meal is 15 quid.

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    Mute Kian David Griffin
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:12 AM

    I’d still take it :P

    26
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    Mute Róisín O'Donovan
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:33 AM

    In fairness, Steve, it’s still a great place to live. Sure, things are expensive but income tax and VAT are so low and unemployment is 3%. I love it here!

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    Mute Steve
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:12 AM

    I know, I live in Vaud. 17% tax rate, woop woop!

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    Mute Shane Farrell
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    Oct 28th 2013, 12:40 PM

    Steve, is there any stats to see the average rental price in Zurich? Considering Zurich is the biggest city (?) in Switzerland I’d like to compare it with Dublin.

    From this website (can’t vouch for how reliable it is unfortunately, I found it just now with google search) the prices seem very similar to Dublin?

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    Mute Róisín O'Donovan
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    Oct 28th 2013, 12:42 PM

    I’ve been living in Zurich for the past year and, believe me, it’s not the same price as Dublin. Try homegate.ch for average rents.

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    Mute Steve
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    Oct 28th 2013, 12:43 PM

    you wont find anything decent for under 2 grand per month . Is that easier to tell you?

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    Mute Róisín O'Donovan
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    Oct 28th 2013, 12:45 PM

    Woops, just saw your link after I posted. Steve’s bang on with the CHF2,000 if you’re looking in the city.

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    Mute Shane Farrell
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    Oct 28th 2013, 12:48 PM

    The definition of decent is open to interpretation though…I could argue you wouldn’t find anything decent in Dublin for under 2k…

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    Mute Róisín O'Donovan
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    Oct 28th 2013, 12:50 PM

    It’s around CHF2k for a 45sqm apartment with a kitchen/living room and one bedroom completely unfurnished (they even take the light fittings with them when they move!).

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    Mute Shane Farrell
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    Oct 28th 2013, 1:13 PM

    Cheers Roisin. Definitely hard for me to compare right now as I don’t know the individual prestige of parts of Zurich. But from early investigation it does seem to be 20-30% more expensive in Zurich than in Dublin for similar rentals. And if they’re unfurnished that’s a bit steep indeed.

    Just researching on a cost of living web site now for a better idea.

    I have to add, I’m curious because I would consider accepting a job in Switzerland if it was offered…

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    Mute Steve
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    Oct 28th 2013, 1:51 PM

    Shane, if you are offered a job here in Switzerland. Take it and NEVER look back! You’ll earn 3x your salary in Ireland and your quality of life will improve more than you could ever imagine.

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    Mute Mark Campbell
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:02 AM

    So would they not even need to work to get this? Seems like a crazy plan.

    47
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    Mute Relevent?
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:16 AM

    Wouldn’t work here, Switzerland has very tight boarder controls, a different work ethic, not a major drug infestation, and lovely chocolate
    I think the 1:12 idea is good in principle, probable get a lot of companies here subcontracting out the lower paid roles to avoid the ratio effecting them

    88
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    Mute Tom Sullivan
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:52 AM

    You’ve obviously never stayed in Geneva, Relevant. If you did, you’d know they have a serious problem with junkies.

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    Mute Steve
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:16 AM

    but the difference is, they arent Swiss. Most of the junkies are french or North African and can’t claim from the Swiss State. I’d live in Geneva over Dublin any day

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    Mute Paul O'Brien
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:07 AM

    This is a great idea. People who want to work would be able to do so, without looking over their shoulder. If you wanted to start a small business, you would have basic income to fall back on if things didn’t go well. Fathers or mothers who wanted to would be able to stay at home and look after their children, and such work would be rewarded by the state through basic income. Basic income would lessen bureaucracy and increase social security and solidarity. Artists and creative people would be able to do their work without having to “dumb down” to fit their work to the market. Students whose fathers became employed would not have to leave college (or spend so much time working in a pub or whatever that it interferes with their studies).

    There is no danger of there being not enough people to do the work if people received basic income. At the moment there is not enough (paid) work to go around.

    A major problem in our economy at the moment is the lack of demand, which puts small businesses out of business, because people don’t have enough money to spend in them. With a basic income which you could top up with (eg) part-time work, this would go a long way toward solving the problem.

    Poverty traps would be reduced if not eliminated, since it would always pay people to work.

    39
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    Mute Sandra Turner
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    Oct 28th 2013, 8:53 AM

    at 2000 a month some people think they need to Jim the British army to survive.

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    Mute Sandra Turner
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    Oct 28th 2013, 8:53 AM

    join

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    Mute Blaine Ryan
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:00 AM

    That only pays about 1500!

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:50 AM

    misleading – that 2000 he referred to is total by himself and partner and for the 2 kids too.

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    Mute Sandra Turner
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:04 AM

    plus 260 for children’s allowance

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:01 AM

    Actually Sandra the article is not specific on whether the €450 per week includes or excludes any children’s allowance.

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    Mute Sandra Turner
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:16 AM

    he would get 372 a week in JA for himself partner and kids. if the 450 includes child benefit then he only gets 12 quid in rent allowance which is unlikely. also gets back to school allowance and medical card.

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    Mute Sandra Turner
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:17 AM

    apologies 18 euro rent allowance

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:33 PM

    18 euro rent allowance is EXACTLY what I’m getting…..

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    Mute Dublinjonny
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    Oct 28th 2013, 8:59 AM

    This story first reported over 7 weeks ago …. the journal is getting better …. maybe 5-6 weeks to report on the 14 year old girl found and taken into care in dublin yesterday ?

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    Mute Gerry Mccormack
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:54 AM

    Was a Swiss family

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    Mute Robert Zombies
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:24 AM

    The Swiss can afford this minimum monthly sum for all citizens. They have massive indigenous industries that generate huge wealth. We don’t unfortunately. I would also agree with the €2000PM only because the average salary is over €5000 and the cost of living is pretty high. All the monthly costs are here.

    http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Switzerland

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    Mute Sean O'Keeffe
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:37 AM

    But do the Swiss earn higher average salaries and a higher standard of living because they have the facility to influence policy and prevent their elected officials from implementing blanket bank guarantees, handing over billions to bank bondholders and generally squandering public funds with abandon.
    It’s not possible for a small economy to provide a universal safety net for its population and all those that choose to invest in its banks. It’s either/or!

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    Mute orla
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:35 AM

    I cant remember which Treaty,I think it was Lisbon,that stated,’If 100,000 citizens of the E.U. wanted to propose something, they could,I suppose you would need signitures, or maybe they then amended that after!

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    Mute Fiachra Maolmordha Ó Raghallaigh
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    Oct 28th 2013, 9:43 AM

    No, it still exists. But you can only use it in areas over which the EU has competency, which is mostly single market stuff.

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    Mute Brian Houlihan
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:14 AM

    1,000,000 signatures with at least 7 countries represented.

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    Mute Kian David Griffin
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:11 AM

    Fair play to the Swiss, that’s democracy done right! but the idea of a basic income for all wound get lost in “communist” scaremongering here most likely

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    Mute Marc Euclio O'Connell
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:59 AM

    Yeah…because we live in 50′s America. No you’d get your typical “Ah sure I’m working 4 millions hours and weeeeeeek and sure thems on the dole do naaaaaaaaaaaathin sure, spoongers like, ja no?” dialogue from people who would gladly cut off their noses to spite their faces.

    The Swiss have a more developed middle class, we’re barely a generation removed from being rural peasantry so the typical ignorances about. (see above)

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    Mute Solbank Sabadell
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:16 AM

    Compare that to our corrupt awful party whip system. Say what you like about DDI and the new movements starting nothing could be worse or less humane than what we have now.

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    Mute Shane Farrell
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:30 AM

    When machines do the majority of work, there will be very few jobs in comparison to the size of the population.

    We will have the capability in 5 years to replace all truck drivers, taxi drivers etc. with intelligent machines that are better than them at their job in every way.

    Making transport more efficient and roads safer.

    But we won’t do it in the next 5 or even 20 years. And the reasons people will say they don’t want this to happen will vary from fear of machine errors (which is laughable when you compare exhaustively tested machines rate of error to even the best humans’ rate of error), to not wanting to displace millions of workers around the world.

    Except maybe in Switzerland. Where being displaced from your job might be seen as an opportunity to better yourself if they pass this law.

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    Mute Marc Marcel
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    Oct 28th 2013, 1:24 PM

    there will be very few jobs in comparison to the size of the ‘growing’ population. one is going down and the other is going up. has someone told the ‘job creation’ specialists that theres a hole in the bucket?

    what will happen?

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    Mute B9xiRspG
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:45 AM

    Direct Democracy Ireland

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    Mute Marc Euclio O'Connell
    Favourite Marc Euclio O'Connell
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    Oct 28th 2013, 1:50 PM

    Allow me to finish that sentence.

    …will split the left wing vote and usher in a Fianna Fail government.

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    Mute Paul O'Brien
    Favourite Paul O'Brien
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:14 AM
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    Mute Gerry Mccormack
    Favourite Gerry Mccormack
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    Oct 28th 2013, 11:48 AM

    They tried to do the same in Ireland 4 years ago. Was called the dole. Nearly worked

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    Mute Fong Wannapho
    Favourite Fong Wannapho
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    Oct 28th 2013, 10:23 AM

    FF could better it, maybe even double it.

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    Mute Billy Nomates
    Favourite Billy Nomates
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    Oct 28th 2013, 1:17 PM

    Errr direct democracy = socialism

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    Mute Patrick Jackman
    Favourite Patrick Jackman
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    Oct 28th 2013, 2:28 PM

    This will surely cause inflation to skyrocket, quickly wiping out any gains for Switzerland’s low paid and leaving every Swiss resident worse off, possibly leading to a cycle of beggar thy neighbour wage demands.
    The way to improve everybody’s lives is to increase production and reduce the cost of living.

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    Mute John O'Donoghue
    Favourite John O'Donoghue
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    Oct 29th 2013, 5:02 AM

    With 400,000 unemployed in Ireland, a political party that could package this idea and demonstrate how it can work in other countries would do quite well in the next election.

    Imagine the support you would get from all of the voluntary carers, especially those responsible for caring for those who cannot work.

    If the benefits of trying to find work using this system could be highlighted, many could choose part time work and thus jobs could be shared around.

    I think it has as much (and probably) going for it as any other system on offer. It would also stop the pension fund companies screwing around in the financial markets contributing to boom-bust cycles.

    Gareth FitzGerald was looking at its merits before he died.

    Watch the negative spin though …. You’ll lose this benefit, that benefit, evenone will get a pension even though you earned yours etc etc etc. To sell this idea the proponants will need to overcome the “Hold onto what you have” merchants.

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