Exactly Pete! If we take them as representatives of the nation at large, the complacency and conservatism of some of the commenters on this page depresses me

Bunch of reality dodging leeches. Most of them could do with a kick up the arse!

Bash bash bash.
Those of you, who are left fight it out to the death.

In one corner all my debt slave minions, in the other govt shills playing excellent trolling.

Who wins decides the future election and the next term robbing you blind to give to the poor bankers.

Keep up the good work.

I must stay off the snakebites

Indeed. If the unions hadn’t allowed the government to divide and conquer, and had stood together against them, it could have all turned out so differently.

Katy, teachers’ kids are often in their own schools.

Kind of wondering though – why is it you think that teachers should be staying back, unpaid and barely acknowledged to work around parents?

They were paid! It was called benchmarking!

Duh, Katy. Try putting a poster up in the reception area of a private company (aka “workplace” ) slagging off management payment practices and see where that gets you.

Tony- same reason they get all those holidays.

What holidays? I don’t know what you’re talking about….. The teaching contract is about educating kids which includes a specific number of hours and days.

If you want us to move closer to international standards then teachers need to reduce instruction hours in Ireland drastically. But let’s not go there cos you don’t want to hear it anyway Kevin, I don’t think you’d be capable of accepting that you might find that you’re wrong.

Are the banks open passed 4pm?

3 good reasons to become a secondary school teacher…..June…July…august!

3 good reasons to become a secondary school teacher…..June…July…august!

Tony. The fact that you can type “What Holidays” illustrates in technicolor how removed teachers are from real life and the experience of those who pay your wages in the private sector, without getting the summer off.

Kevin, with all due respect, most parents can’t even cope with their OWN teenager – which is why they resent the June, July & August holidays – let alone be able to cope with up to 250 other people’s teenagers per day!
You don’t know everything about everything – so try educating yourself about the reality of situations before passing judgement! Everyone is entitled to their opinion; but opinions can be wrong!

No – I say it because it’s fact.

Let me spell it out for you kevin….

Temporary and part time contracted teachers are in their jobs until May. They don’t get paid over the summer, they often don’t even know if they will have work in September either. This goes on for years.

Now – and here’s how what you call the “holidays” actually saves the taxpayer (and I include public sector workers in that term – unlike how you seem to think only the private sector pays tax)…

For a permanently contracted teacher who gets paid across the summer… Let’s look at it as a 9 month work period with pay over 12 months. Instead of just paying 100% over 9 months teachers are paid 75% over 12 months. This means that consistent fortnightly payments are paid while in employment with a school – clean, simple and saving back 25% in govt coffers as a deferred payment and reducing the administration.

Or would you prefer that teachers are paid on a weekly bassis for the work they have done creating an administration nightmare that would cost us all more in the long run.

Yes, there is an amount of time that is of for the summer but without wanting to sound repetitive, people often bring up the time off without thinking of the consequences and implications of changing that (which are many), nor are they aware of international best practice nor how even a cursory look at the OECD’s Education at a Glance report would show anyone with even the most limited of critical thinking ability that Irish education is getting a hell of a lot with less and less.

Tony- Again- it’s so obvious how you live in your own little bubble. The wages Teachers get per annum are more than appropriate for teachers to be working the same annual hours as the average private sector worker. The core point is you get serious time off given the wages you are on and the role you perform. It is, therefore a cushy number. And ye should appreciate that when whining about Haddington Road. You seem to feel ye are a special case. You’re not. What happens in other OECD countries had no relevance. Though you’re free to move there.

A bit like all the TD’s sitting in the Dail then Kevin?!! Take the blinkers off!!!

Kevin – um – how many times does it take to repeat that the “bubble” I’m living in is unemployment?

OECD comparisons have A LOT OF RELEVANCE.

What I’d love to know is what benefit that you think going to a “more typical” 48 week, 39 hour teaching day would have? Not only on teachers but on kids – again, you are the one in the bubble – the one that insists on ignoring research and implications, refuses to acknowledge the value that is in Irish education and seems to rest on a combination of putting on blinkers, thinking you know all about it and an apparent malice that is based on “poor me” in the private sector.

Tony I’d give up if I were you. You’re never going to convince that bitter man that you’re not claiming the status of a ‘special case’, just decent and fair working entitlements

Ah yeah Stephen, I think some of my other replies to him have hinted at that.

But telling him how wrong he is is keeping me occupied while I try to find a diplomatic way of sending an email that I may otherwise send as a rant!

Elegantly done Tony, energy well spent.

Stephen- spare me the sob story, would you? “Fair working entitlements?” Cop yourself on. You’d swear ye are down coal mines with canaries dying around ye. Asti are bristling because of minimal changes to working arrangements. They’re acting like petulant children throwing their dummies out. And at this difficult time for everyone, the rest of the country is not going to put up with that crap.

Tony- I didn’t actually advocate teachers working a full year. I merely pointed it out as an extraordinary perk associated with your profession which ye would do well to acknowledge when being asked to work a few extra hours across the weeks ye are actually working. Instead you want the best of both worlds.

Kevin I don’t understand why you’re so determined the teachers are in the wrong on this one. I’m not a teacher myself so I’ve no axe to grind on either side but they appear to have highly legitimate grievances regarding working hours, contracts etc, and I think we should admire them for highlighting these issues and demanding redress. We can’t trifle with education, no more than with health.

You say a “few extra hours”

I say, the exact kind of hours that mean that people like myself who are hoping for substitution hours simply don’t get them.

And in the meantime, the taxpayer has to pay for the social welfare I need.

Once again Kevin, you show your inability to see beyond what Mr Quinn would like you to think.

Why would there not be a poster from a union in a workplace full of union members?

Kevin,
I’m a secondary teacher, and on behalf of the Irish Education system I apologise to you.
It would seem that your time spent in our system has led you to have a very bad opinion of it. It is a pity that you feel you can judge us teachers without having experienced what we go through every day, the preparation of classes the night before, the correction of school work, the counselling of kids, dealing with difficult parents, dealing with nice parents, spending time after school training sports teams, and trying to teach some kids some basic life skills while also trying to teach kids to get 600 points in their leaving cert, and they all in the same classroom. The best part is I’ve never seen all that in the job description.

Once again Kevin, sincerest apologies.

Kevin, what a spiteful little man you seem to be. Tony is correct, in the 1970′s IIRC, it was decided teachers’ salaries would be paid over a 12 month period as opposed to a 9 month period, saving the exchequer money.

The Haddington Road Agreement, in relation to second level schools could potentially damage the learning potential of our most precious resource, our children. The new Junior Cycle is being rail-roaded in. It very much needs to be properly considered. Teaching is a very difficult profession to enter here, and lots of talented young teachers emigrate every week to many different systems.

Teaching is far from cushy, but like any job it has some perks, like in the private sector I have enjoyed bonuses for Christmas or doing my job as expected, awards and prizes, company shares, staff discounts, Long service payments, Free uniform, up-skilling and training, travel and subsistence, free parking, to name a handful, of which teachers get none, in fact there is a moratorium on the few AP posts where teachers could earn more. Teachers already have felt as much if not more cutbacks than people in private sector have. I know as I’ve worked in both.

Fempi, which is what comes in on the rejection of Haddington Road is not a great deal at all. HR would be a much less bitter pill, but certain things, like use of Croke Park hours could be better utilised, and should be.

Hi Tony, you have referenced the OECD again and again but never provided the links to your figures. Here is the latest report I am using:

http://www.oecd.org/edu/eag2013%20(eng)–FINAL%2020%20June%202013.pdf (June 2013)

On page 253 it shows a table of teachers salaries per country along with their number of working hours and students instruction hours.

- Average teacher salary in Ireland in 2011 is $54,954. The average for the OECD is $38,136

- Teacher annual working hours in Ireland for 2011 is 915 (23, 40 hour, weeks a year). It was 915 in 2000 so that raises questions about productivity for salary agreements right through the 2000’s. Teachers salaries went up by 13.3% in the same period. Average working hours for OECD is 786. Irish teachers work 16% longer than the OECD average. But probably significantly shorter than most other full time professions.

Interestingly, student instruction time in ireland is 869 hours a year. A drop of 72 hours since 2000. One assumes that the difference between the teachers hours, 915 and the student hours 869 is the time time spent by teachers correcting papers, parents teachers meetings etc.

I think by any objective standard full time teachers in ireland get a good deal. Part time teachers is a completely other story and I understand that.

Well said Simon. Despite being paid far in excess of the OECD average, the gimme gimme whining attitude of SOME teachers persists. If you’re that unhappy being a teacher do what the rest of us do if our job isn’t working out…LEAVE!

Fair dues to the ASTI for standing up where we all PUBLIC AND PRIVATE have laid down and taken one for the green jersey.. Let the teachers teach ,let the parents and church do the communions and confirmations,let the parents do the choir and the music classes,let the Gaa do the football and the hurling,let the RFU do the rugby, I have said it before if the teachers just did what they were supposed to do and leave out all the extras that they aren’t paid for we would be in a far worse place.

Id suggest that every teacher signs up for and is well aware of the job expectations mentioned above BEFORE they sign their contract. If they dont like it, then they can always resign and find much better paid employment in the private sector. Emmm, don’t see many teachers doing that. I wonder why ? I have a theory. I know one teacher who gets paid of assistant principle salary for doing what ? Ii will tell you. Looking after that school lost and found box. I kid you not. Guess who the union rep in the school is ? !!!!

Damn right. Disgraceful bully boy tactics.

Sean, I hope you’re not a parent because if you are and you think that teachers have put your kid’s education as leverage then you have it alllll wrong.

Education spending in Ireland is at 75% of the OECD average. That’s not a decision made by teachers, that’s the kind of moves that parents are not aware of because Quinn et al are only delighted to have you believe that it’s the teachers who are causing such issues.

And in terms of the issues, there are 2 big ones that fall into public misconceptions – the first is that teachers are not doing all they can to minimise the impact on kids’ education. That’s why they are under industrial action and not on strike.
The second is that there is any time of year that teachers could engage in any form of industrial action without someone making a claim like the one you’re making.

Now, the current industrial action has not in any way impacted on the number of hours of instruction that kids are receiving. Which, I might add are measured as one of the highest in the OECD.

In the meantime, the approx 40% drop in education spending over the last number of years to a point where we’re now at the aforementioned 75% of OECD average spending has resulted in higher class sizes, more unemployment, the abandoning of children with special needs and their assistants and specific subjects being impacted upon due to reduced resource funding: limiting subject choice for pupils. ALL of these are issues that are a systematic slashing by government and are in no way due to teachers.

No Sean once again an ill informed opinion – we have genuine concerns about such things as the junior cert and ensuring that our education system doesn’t become a joke – Britain has just given up on school based assessment and yet we want to adopt that model. We have genuine concerns about how those extra hours under croke park deal are implemented so that everyone benefits from those increased hours ! I do not trust this govt to be an honest broker in these deals.

If I want to selfishly look at it purely from a teachers point if view – I resent being forced to work for less now than I ever have been in my career. I am concerned for my wife also a teacher who has been on rolling contracts for years with no sign of a permanent contract in sight. I am distrustful of a government who has the ability to unilaterally change my contract without consultation. And I am absolutely sick of hearing everyone’s opinion on my terms and conditions of employment !!

Just because we wish to stand up selflessly for a higher cause and selfishly for my own livelihood we should be berated by you and others like you !! Get informed or get out of the argument !!

Tony. Answer me these two questions: 1). Are the teachers secure in their jobs? 2). Is there employer broke? All else is crap. They’re well paid for what they do, they’ve plenty of holidays, their mortgage is secure and they don’t go to bed at night wondering if they’ll have a job in the morning. All the rest is civil service crap. Things aren’t as good as they were five years ago? Welcome to the real world.

That fücking phrase will be the death of me.
Welcome to my real world.
30, 8 years teaching. 1 year contract, can’t get a mortgage.

Get off your soap box you condescending cretin

And FEMPI legislation is not bully boy? Under planet ends we may as well add a tenth category to the categories in the equality legislation. Public servants. Public service phobia is tolerated in a way that race, gender or sexual orientation phobia would never be.

But bankers still get bonuses.

Enda, sorry not ends. Pred text….

@Kevin, my job isn’t secure not had it been for the 12 years I’ve been teaching so your point in like you full of shit

What an idiotic comment!

Gerry- it’s worrying a teacher can’t type English.

Sorry that comment was directed at Tara.

@Kevin it’s worrying that I’m so angry with absolute morons like you sitting in your ivory tower passing judgement on something you have no clue or concept of apart from what you read from bilious organs like the Indo and Newstalk. If you had any kind of independent thought in your head in your life I’d be surprised. Don’t comment on things you don’t understand. My typing skills apart, you, my dear man have no clue and I’d relish the opportunity to debate you or any of your ilk any day of the week on the FACTS and REALITY not the fantasy perpetuated by the media. Is that enough English for you, you condescending plank

Kevin, I’ll address your points – no problem with that – but what I won’t do is limit my answer to suit your agenda – which, I suspect, is one which rests on a mind that is set and will not be changed.

First q: Not as secure as you would think – unfortunatley people keep trotting this out. There are several facets to this from one end to the other. Teachers on permanent contracts are indeed secure in their job. Then there are those who spend 6 or 7 years wondering if they’ll ever get a permanent contract. Then there are teachers like myself and many of my classmates who have gotten TINY amounts of work. For me, that’s 15 days since september last year.
In addition, any teacher that does have job security is subject to the Teaching Council’s Code of Professional Conduct which offers an opportunity to take action against any teacher not meeting their professional responsibilities.

The only other job security element to consider is the assurance of never being threatened with compulsory redundancies.

I would like to understand why it is that people would be annoyed about that assurance. Would they be happier with a load of compulsory redundancies and going to 40 pupils per teacher in class sizes? Do people make the effort to think about what this would mean in the restriction of subject choices (it would cause SERIOUS problems). Are people aware that this would be close to the end of technology education and science education given the 24 pupil limit in workshops and science labs.

Would you be happy with treating education as a “human capital” cut-and-slash private business type situation? I really don’t think people truly understand the implications of this, nor comprehend the value of education to the economy.

Second Q: There have already been MASSIVE cuts. I think the last paragraph really addresses that.

The last thing I’d say is that the “their employer is broke” argument is that you could say that about health. Why aren’t you? It costs billions – but we don’t say that about health because we can see that there is a benefit in health.

Do you see none in education? Seems like it to me.

And you know it really doesn’t matter how low salaries would go for teachers because someone would still be saying “their employer is broke”. Even if they went down to 20K a year or less.

The bottom line is that if education in Ireland continues the way it is, the brain drain will continue, and we will kill our ability to recover.

Well said Tony. Exceptional argument and completely correct, but the right argument is not good enough because a scapegoat is always necessary.

That intemperate post tells me why you are on a one year contract after eight years teaching.

Glad you are not teaching my kids if that is the standard of your discourse.

Well, Gerry I and the rest of the private sector pay your wages with money we earn facing much tougher working terms & conditions than you. So I know a little about it. As for your bizarre challenge, I could buy you & sell you. How do I know? Because I’m not a teacher. And you know what they say. If you can’t do it, teach….

That post was for Liam H

And what purpose did this comment serve?
How can you imply you know my character based on that post?

Have you any idea how difficult it is to get a job in teaching in this country at the moment?

Have you any idea how difficult it is to get a job of more than 50% pay IF you do get a job?

Why shouldn’t we come out fighting?

Why shouldn’t we stand up for ourselves?

I don’t pay tax at all Kevin? Teachers, Gardai, Nurses, military personnel, council workers don’t pay taxes? You are a martyr you poor thing. As for buying and selling- anytime, anywhere little man

Yes Kev, your experience in the private sector represents the same experience everyone else has had.

Um no – not for me anyway.

Tony- It actually says a lot that 1. You exhibit disdain at teachers being held to account by a code of conduct!!!! Imagine?!?! Accountability- how could the Govt do that to ye? Because employees performance in the private sector isn’t measured. Oh wait. And 2. You actually proved my point with your abhorrence of compulsory redundancies. You hid behind the kids. We should protect your jobs for the kids sake!!!! In any event, you don’t seem to recognise its value. It never seems to enter your heads that there’s a trade off. Ye want wages linked to the private sector (remember benchmarking?) but you don’t want to share the pain like the private sector and you don’t think your job security should be taken into account when assessing your wages. As if private sector people up and down the country haven’t taken massive cuts to save their jobs. Give me a break.

I never hear anything positive here regarding a solution. The easiest thing in the world to do is criticise and offer no alternative. The only alternative anyone ever offers here is “sack them all.” I have no truck with the unions, any union, teaching or otherwise, I firmly believe that they are self serving and have very little interest in real on the ground issues. That being said, the erosion of working conditions would not be tolerated in any profession anywhere,the fact that it is education is irrelevant really. Positive alternatives are welcome

Shane
You resent being forced to work for less pay when your employer has less money to pay you. You resent your employment contract being changed but still remain in a position where your employment is guaranteed. You resent the changes your employer has to make but you will make no concessions even though you are sitting on a guaranteed gilt edged index linked pension.
Your pupils parents have seen their employment disappear and their pensions collapse and their homes disappear but you couldn’t care less could you.
I understand the daily “chat” in your teachers rooms is consistently nauseous and completely removed from reality. I have no difficulty if such an area is used for Union propaganda but facilities used by the students are off limits and so are the use of photographs that include children. They are not your property and have not lawfully consented to being used for such purposes.
Now…get back to the classrooms!

I agree, , it’s a total disgrace using children as pawns in their dispute, the children’s future is of less importance than their pockets

I’ve worked in both the private sector and in education as a second level teacher. Teaching is much harder than in private sector. As a teacher you are on stage, aiming to help and improve the abilities of up to 30 young people in front of you with a variety of needs, be it mental, physical, emotional etc.

Young people come from a variety of background, and have different learning styles and teachers should be able to help learners by bending their style to this, but the bigger the class, the less individual attention you can give in a 40 mins class, you can give less than 2 mins per person, assuming there is only 20 pupils in the class.

I don’t know how you have interpreted my comment as “exhibit(ing) disdain”.

As a matter of fact, I am delighted that that code of conduct exists and delighted for good teachers that their reputation is enhanced by it’s existence and hopefully parents being more aware of it means that sub standard teachers are challenged and dismissed where appropriate.

In fact, I’ve commented on other stories here in the journal where I have encouraged people like yourself who insist that there is no accountability to get the document and send it to anyone you know with a kid.

To address your other “points” – I don’t hide behind kids – I don’t have a job to protect, you have me mixed up with someone else.

As regards your benchmarking comment – unfortunately you are again showing your ignorance.
Teachers wages are at about 80% of other similarly qualified workers in Ireland. So no, we’re not as highly paid as you will insist. In saying that, I think there is space for some areas of pay to be looked at and reduced. That’s likely an unpopular view among teachers but I think the money for principals based on number of teachers in the school is ridiculous. There are other areas too.

Now – as mentioned earlier with respect to job security – do you understand the implications?

In the private sector jobs are lost because of lack of work/surplus of people.

In education, the work is still there and, in fact, there are more people in education now and a pulse of boom babies who are going to have a serious effect on secondary schools (they’re already in primary level). I don’t think you can recognise this though or have the willingness to even consider the implications, including for the private sector in the future.

I’d love to know how far you feel you can take that argument? The “they should be glad to have a job” approach, where do you draw the line with that? Does that mean you feel they should put up with any shit thrown at them? The horrible truth in Ireland is that this attitude is being applied broadly, leading to many people in many different jobs putting up with all manner of crap, feeling they have no choice but to do so, since their chances of getting a new job are slim to none. Does this get more work out of people? Hell no as far as I can see! The end result of this attitude is people feeling oppressed, stressed and miserable in their work, which in turn leads to decreased productivity and increased sick leave! This attitude is driving many of our teachers, nurses, doctors and other qualified professionals out of this country, because quite simply, we can get jobs elsewhere with good terms and conditions, with decent pay and a whole heap less stress. The long term impact of that is far less of these professionals to teach your kids, and care for them as nurses and doctors. Someone needs to look at the big picture nad the long term impact of all this crap!

@gerry. I hope you dont teach English with that grammer.

GrammEr is it Dave?

@ Tony. I’ve been teaching for five years. I have only part time hours, 10hrs 40 mins a week, or three classes a day. I have no job security. I am not a permanent teacher. I’m unable to pay my mortgage, paying interest only for the last three years. I’m a single parent with no social welfare entitlements. In fact I would be entitlement to supplementary welfare benefit if all my teaching hours were condensed into two or three days. There is no work out there. Bitty bit unsustainable contracts for a few hours here and there. It’s not feasible working a few hours in one school and a few hours in another school. Aside from the fact that there would be huge timetabling issues, there is so much more involved in being a teacher than just teaching a subject. To engage meaningfully with students a teacher needs to be a part of the school community, needs to be both inside and outside the classroom, involved with the students. A teacher wears so many hats & juggles them all at the same time…teacher, social worker, psychiatrist, psychologist, law enforcer, pastor, confidante, secretary, administrator, carer, leader, motivator…to name but a few! It’s exhausting…even part time…but I love it! I love having a positive influence in as many young people’s lives as I know I do. I love being challenged by young people. The rapport between a teacher and her/his students can be a hugely positive one. Why should I be expected to work under worsening conditions just because I love teaching?

Well said Tammy – most commenters here wouldn’t last a week in teaching, & are just bemoaning a negative experience they themselves might have had with one or two teachers in their lifetime.
Teaching has changed fundamentally in the last 15 – 20 years, but the detractors are basing their opinions in their outdated experiences.

But Richie you forget that this is a complex issue – teacher contracts and education – it’s like talking about fast food workers wages and whether we they should have a pay cut and additional hours work because we want to introduce a tax on unhealthy food !!

Why can’t I resent working for less money than I have ever worked for in public or private sector employment !! Every worker feels this way whether try are private sector or not !!

In terms of cant be fired – are you for real !! Do you know how many teachers were sacked last year ? Then again I don’t know how many people were fired from AIB ?? We are subject to a code of conduct just like everyone else ! I can be fired like everyone else – I am subject also to a strict code of conduct set out by the Teaching Council of Ireland ! I will admit that there are teachers not up to standard but having worked in Human Resources before becoming a teacher I can guarantee you there are plenty of substandard workers out there !! And yes they are pushed to the side, tolerated and ignored by their colleagues ! I am a good teacher I have nothing to fear from any performance appraisal that I am subjected to very regularly !!

I will defend my position with the same passion I teach with – as you would sir defend your job and how you are perceived in the workplace !!

@ Tammy – Not really sure what you took from my comment. It seems you think I have a problem with teachers. I am one – and by that I mean, an unemployed one who got a total of 15 hours of work since graduating.

That might shed a whole other light on my comments which were an address of Kevin Dobson’s self exposed ignorance in the situation…..

sorry Tony…meant Kevin!!

Just a quick point: we will only be protected from compulsory redundancy if we accept the HRA proposals. Therefore, not accepting the HR proposals puts our security in jeopardy. The decision to reject the HRA was not and will not be taken lightly and it certainly doesn’t fit into some people’s view that we are self-serving because financially and in terms of security, accepting HR is best for us. Therefore, slating us for rejecting it doesn’t make sense. Our decisions have proven us to be the opposite of what the ‘haters’ accuse us of. Our rejection of HR is based on bigger issues, like protecting the education system that serves our children, and not our financial gain. People who think otherwise are ignorant of all the facts and need to do their homework before making absurd judgements based on the biased propaganda of the media.

Also, just because I teach only three classes a day does not free me up to source work elsewhere. I’m at the mercy of my timetable, so for example, I might have a class first thing in the morning, not another one until around lunchtime and another one again in the late afternoon. How on earth does that give me an option to try and get work elsewhere? Also, when my contract was halved to only part-time hours three years ago, I set about trying to get even more qualifications. I started a two year Masters…juggling work, single parenthood and STILL came out with first class honours and STILL no better off work wise!

Shane
You have misread and misrepresented my comments about the security of tenure. I never suggested that teachers couldn’t be dismissed. I very deliberately stated that your employment contract is guaranteed by the State. Of course you can be dismissed however it requires the intervention of a Government Minister before that happens and that is years after permanent long term damage may have been caused to the misfortunate pupils of the said teacher .

Averages are misleading. Comparisons are more revealing. How many other OECD countries are below this average and who are the countries above the average?

Er, Dave; there should be an apostrophe in “don’t”, and it’s “grammar”, not grammer…

Absolutely right Ben – fair point that averages can be misleading.

Ireland is 4th from the bottom of education spending in OECD countries with the following countries spending more:
US
Belgium
Finland
UK
Netherlands
Poland
Slovenia
Austria
Portugal
Spain
Slovak Republic
Russian Federation
France
Hungary
This is not the complete list – the above are still below average spending.

Below our position (which lies just under Hungary):
Czech Republic
Japan
Italy

Hello Tony, you have consistently quoted Ireland as near the bottom of the league for education spending in the OECD. But I didn’t see any references, so went looking for myself!.

Here is the latest OECD report I could find from June 2013. http://www.oecd.org/edu/eag2013%20(eng)–FINAL%2020%20June%202013.pdf

Its very long, over 400 pages. But a bit of searching found the following:

Page 164 – Average spend on core education services for Ireland is 4th in the OECD at approx $10,000 per student. The average is approx $8,000. So we are not 75% of the OECD average we are 125%.

Page 167 – We are above average for Primary spending per student and significantly above average for Secondary school spending.

Page 186 – Overall Ireland is 5th in terms of spending by GDP (4.8%). And once again above the OECD average.

Page 253 – Irish teachers get paid an average of $54,954 in 2011. Thats a 13.3% increase since 2000. The average OECD teacher salary is $38,136

I have 3 kids in school myself. I love their teachers and consider it a vocation. I have nothing but happy memories of school. But the facts are the facts. I understand you are just trying to defend your own sectors interests (like everyone else!!) but you can’t simple come on a forum and make up statistics to suit your position.

Perhaps you have the source for your 75% average spend? Would love to see it.

I’m sure the bankers, bond holders, TD’s, judges and senior civil servants are chuckling away under the sheets this morning reading these venomous posts.

Hi David, Im sure there is plenty to say about bankers etc. But to stick to the topic on hand any objective analysis of full time teachers income will conclude that they are getting well treated in a catastrophic economic climate (see my previous post). Its tough, of course it is. But it is tough right across the middle and working class of Ireland. I think need teachers need to approach the debate in a manner that doesn’t alienate people who are finding it even tougher to make ends meet.

And I understand that part time teachers are getting a terrible deal. Without a doubt their union has failed them. But for full time teachers the unions have done an excellent job of keeping their pay and conditions intact in a very tough environment.

Well said!

But please remember by rejecting HRA we are well aware that we may incur further pay cuts; this action is not just about pay but also about conditions.

We are trying to preserve standards in the education system. The Govt wants to follow the British system, while the British begin to dismantle their system as it is not working!!

The DES deliberately did not consult with teachers on issues of reform – because they don’t want our knowledge or experience in this field to interfere with their experiment.

Meanwhile the education of our children is dangerously & carelessly tampered with …

Whoever said that was a moron.

Whoever quotes it in a debate like this is a complete moron.

You pay our wages?
We don’t pay tax ourselves, no?
We don’t pay for all the products/services from the private sector?
That funnily enough, pay your wages…..

You’re a clown,

I’m sure those statistics don’t include the extra 7% we get docked because we are Irish public servants. They only show gross and other OECD countries don’t have that levy.

Hi Mairead, that 7% is a pension contribution. For paying it you get a pension when you retire. Absolutely, other OECD countries have pension levy’s for their government employees. The OECD figures are Gross figures. Pension levy’s, tax, social contributions etc all come out of that Gross figure. So yes you are correct the OECD Gross figures don’t show what taxes you pay. Why would it? Thats a completely different question. You will find other countries employees pay taxes that you don’t. Its swings and roundabouts.

No, Simon, the pension levy isn’t a pension contribution. It’s a levy (aka tax) on the pension contributions you make. It is of no financial benefit to you, the opposite in fact.
The pension contribution is different, it’s called superannuation in the public service. And of course many people are also paying huge AVC’s, because they got permanent jobs so late, and have to catch up. Very few people who qualified since the early eighties got permanent jobs straight away and have ten, fifteen or more years to catch up.

Liam- “concessions”? Another one of your civil service “entitlements”? Unbelievable the Bolshy attitudes of civil service unions and their membership. So sorry your number is being made a little less cushy.

Actually, Alan in the private sector terms are routinely changed and most private contracts have a clause that allows this. Unlike public servants, we also face the old “if you don’t like it, someone else will take your job” conundrum. Spoilt brats these teachers are.

5 years on and 24% of net pay gone in taxes and charges, working conditions being extended for less pay, a new curriculum (destined to fail) about to be foisted upon us and the government trying to wangle complete control over employment laws?

Is it any wonder we are bolshy?

Get out of an argument you know nothing about you sh1t€ stirring cretin

Kevin – I’ve worked in the private sector too so giving us your experience and stating it as if that experience is the same as everyone else’s is of no value.

It’s definitely safe to say that any comments directed at addressing yours only serve to educate others because you sir suffer from the cardinal sin of learning.

You think you know it all.

Kevin minor changes are allowed under contract clauses but major fundamental changes require contract renegotiation – this deal does not specify what changes that it might entail. T

Shane- No. Not so much.

Comment of the night. This “PROCESS” has much wider implications than just the education sector.

Are you a member shane?

Because HRA is trying to hammer us harder than any other group of public sector workers.
Because when other PS workers rejected CP 2, got concessions in HRA.
Because we DONT have it as handy as ye think we do and we’re not going to lie down and take yet another shafting to our working conditions.

Yes but under FEMPI legislation it’s the law, ie the government is the only employer now which does not have to comply with labour laws in this country.
Emergency measure though. Watch this space when the money starts flowing again….. Public sectors will quite rightly want their rights back.
And we do want good people running the show right?

Ah liam, cop on will ya? I know people in the garda, other teachers etc…..they have been hammered, absolutely hammered and only for the goodwill of these people the system would crash. The haddington road agreement will be ( I believe) the last big grab of this government! I work in the building industry, am self employed, have put my young lad through an apprenticeship and he has now got his trade, and thank Christ he has. Over the last 5 years my average wage has been less than 20,000 a year. I’m not moaning, Iv seen the good and the bad but by Christ this is the worst Iv ever seen it! There is a small upturn, and I believe that will continue for all our sakes! Suck it up and grow the fcuk up! You are NOT a special case!

Ah liam, cop on will ya? I know people in the garda, other teachers etc…..they have been hammered, absolutely hammered and only for the goodwill of these people the system would crash. The haddington road agreement will be ( I believe) the last big grab of this government! I work in the building industry, am self employed, have put my young lad through an apprenticeship and he has now got his trade, and thank Christ he has. Over the last 5 years my average wage has been less than 20,000 a year. I’m not moaning, Iv seen the good and the bad but by Christ this is the worst Iv ever seen it! There is a small upturn, and I believe that will continue for all our sakes! Suck it up and grow the fcuk up! You are NOT a special case!

I am ! Proud teacher and ASTI member – downtrodden but undefeated ! Ha ha !

I’m not a special case,

Never claimed to be.

What would you know (as a builder) about our argument with the dept of education?

I wouldn’t enter an argument about the construction trade as I know nothing about it.

You should do similar

“Yes but under FEMPI legislation it’s the law, ie the government is the only employer now which does not have to comply with labour laws in this country.”

The Government still has to adhere to the Constitution. Is it constitutional for the Government to change the terms and conditions of public sector contracts of employment that are already in force without the consent of public sector workers?

Wow liam, with a comment like that, I’m so glad my last child is finishing her education in second level next year!

Wow liam, with a comment like that, I’m so glad my last child is finishing her education in second level next year!

Why?

Care to expand?

Why are you sticking your oar into this debate?

Cause you went to school and feel you know about teaching?

Pull the other one

Larry – have you been watching supertroopers?

Are you playing the repeater game?

With YOURSELF?!

Explain tony….as you are the teacher?

Explain tony….as you are the teacher?

Hmm sticking my oar in? I can just imagine your classes! This is the way it is…you will do as you are told….do NOT have an opinion about ANYTHING, if you read or are self educated, do not believe it! Don’t question anything, go safe, believe the propaganda! Ah well, just as well some of us didn’t buy into it!

Hmm sticking my oar in? I can just imagine your classes! This is the way it is…you will do as you are told….do NOT have an opinion about ANYTHING, if you read or are self educated, do not believe it! Don’t question anything, go safe, believe the propaganda! Ah well, just as well some of us didn’t buy into it!

My classroom is a totally different environment to this one.

I’m not being attacked by over zealous “experts” on educational matters.

I get on with my job, a job I love doing, and I do it well.