Glittergirl – no one could deny that people who live in let’s say , the Congo, are likely candidates for asylum, but that begs the question, why Ireland? Why not the first safe country they land in?(as in the Dublin Convebtion) – if they government had taken in asylum seekers from the Congo or Syria etc like we did during the Bosnian conflict – I don’t think people would or should have an issue with that.

Glittergirl, I think you should start your statement with allegedly! Rapped etc!

Rape!

Scarr, to answer why not the first safe country a person lands in? well ireland is the first safe country that anyone seeking asylum in Ireland arrives in. The Dublin convention established EURODAC a European wide database that takes fingerprints and other information from asylum seekers. This database ensures any one person only seeks asylum once in Europe and this ensuring the country they seek asylum is the first and only country that they are eligible to do so.
Statistically we have a lower rate than our European counterparts with Greece having the highest rates.

I wasnt aware there Ailbhe that there are direct flights from Nigeria, Congo, Afghanistan etc to Ireland. Surely France or the UK or other countries with direct flights would be considered safe countries?

No, it’s not. The the comment of an exasperated Irish taxpayer.

There are a lot more services to the indigenous population that require prioritisation ahead of “asylum seekers”.

Ailbhe – flights from the African continent generally have stop overs in at least one other country. Also, why Ireland – there are plenty of safe countries nearby that would be quicker and cheaper to get to. Also, geographically it is only right that we have lower asylum cases, even lower since the depression hit coincidently enough.

Astute observation Jimmy. No there aren’t direct flights from Ireland to the places you mentioned. But two things to note – first the stopovers you referred to are in Europe but what of those in say the UAE or other areas that there are documented oppressions of human rights, if someone was fearing persecution for being a member of the LGBT community or if a woman fearerd punishment for not wanting to wear certain clothing or if someone wished to have sex outside marraige how could a third country qualify as safe when these actions are illegal there too?

Also, as members of the EU we’re a part of the Common European Asylum System which includes the aforementioned Dublin Convention, the Qualification Directive, EURODAC, the Procedure Directive amongst other laws. The idea behind this is that the EU will burden share asylum seekers As members of an international community that has been quite helpful to us especially in our recent financial past it seems only fair that we would have some responsibilities to our European friends.

Sorry Scarr, let me correct myself even by percentage of population we have a low rate. Also, asylum seekers seek refuge in loads of countries not just ours. The refugee camp in Turkey is the biggest in the world with Syrian refugees, Nigeria has huge camps from those fleeing Sudan, Australia and New Zealand have quite well documented mass influxes of refugees. Our share is not disproportionate and by European standards we fare as one of the lowest with only letting circa 10% of claims in – not that many compared to even the UK with 20%.

You obvously have never heard of the Congo or other parts of Africa,where the rape of women and children is near epidemic

Rape is one of the most despicable crimes I can think of. Are you aware that rape is not considered as grounds for asylum? Rape is committed in every country including our own.

Ailbhe – thanks, but my point being, geographically speaking, we should have practically none at all (I don’t think we’re awash with AS anyway, but however) – if civil war broke out in Dublin – I’d move to Galway, cork, maybe the uk or Spain. Saving up for months while under threat for a couple of flights to oz or china wouldn’t be my 1st priority. Though I have no issue with gov ‘accepting their share’ from effective warzones.

Unfortunately the person hearing the direct provision case is Judge Colm McEochaidh, and he has already condemned it. Given the outcome is a forgone conclusion, Shatter should appeal to the Supreme Court which historically has been less activist in its asylum rulungs.

Actually, the people I were referring to, including children have documented evidenced vaginal and anal injuries, caused through rape and object penetration. Many contract Hiv as a result. I happen to think that having survived that (and other horrific events) that they should be treated with compassion. Anyone found not to be genuine should be returned to their country of origin without the significant delays our country allows.

Scarr, you’re right. Geographically speaking we are far out, but there are other factors for example there are many people who know of Ireland as a caring place from the many missionaries. Also, we speak English which can be a definite bonus. There are, I’m sure, psychological and anthropoligical studies on why people go so far away from home but I’m not familiar with them.
Another aspect is that, there may be a prospect of a community here. AS may know of someone who had come to Ireland previously, a friend or relative. There are few people in Ireland who know no one in Australia and that’s as far away as you can get.

Also, your internal alternative is entirely correct and a person won’t be granted refugee status unless their well founded fear of persecution is in their whole country. So only when they’ve moved/attempted to move to their equivalent of Cork or Galway and they’re still at risk will they be considered here.

Ailbhe – good input. And we do have a high refusal rate (near 95% I think) – my main issue with those who claim asylum is that I see them as making an economic choice rather than a life or death one. The AS system needs to be quickened and while they are here they should be provided with adequate short term accommodation but to provide further access to societal benefits would only encourage bogus economic migrants.

Andrea, rape in itself is not grounds. However, if you have situations such as in Bosnia, where women were raped as part of a strategy to “breed out” a particular ethnic group, then does count as persecution for an ethnic group. There have also been cases where women who suffered sexual abuse were granted asylum because they lived in a state which didn’t recognise marital rape as being rape.

Scarr, you’re not quite accurate there. The Dublin Convention lists many criteria as to where someone should apply – the first country they enter is far from the top. You seem to consider the “first safe country” principle to be make or break in assessing credibility and it is not.

Okay,4 suicides in the past year because of Ask.Fm and 1 documented suicide in Direct Provision in the past 10 years…

60000 have claimed asylum since 1994. in 2002 alone it was 12000. These are tiny numbers.

tiny numbers of deaths I mean.

Every death is a tragedy etc but out of the scale of people involved this is not surprising, nor a concern. The certs are there, a quango just does not have them.

Why does this body exist in the first place (I know FF/PD’s had to get cushy jobs) its work belongs in the Dept. of Justice. and it should be abolished and brought back in house.

@Eamon “tiny numbers.” This is a “TINY” Island, take them home with you?

……Eamon my apology I didn’t see the comment where you were referring to “deaths”

The deaths are probably lower than the national average,
- these people don’t have to worry about putting food on the table for kids, mortgages, bills, heating, etc. etc. plus they have access to free medical, unlike the rest of us poor sods…
I remember, in Tralee, they had a sit-down protest because they only had a choice of 5 different dinners every evening, – my blood would have boiled if I wasn’t so cold,

Yeah they just have to flee their own countries and culture and deal with hatred and racism, easy peasy!

@Andrea
Just how well did you know the victims of the suicides you attribute to Ask.fm? Anyone who uses that service knows just what they’re signing up for.

I didn’t know the suicide victims at all. Where did I say that I did? Are you saying that the parents of these children are lying when they say that their children left notes blaming the abuse they received on Ask.fm for their decision to end their lives? You seem to know them really well!!

I’m saying that anonymous online abuse on a website no one is compelling you to use is a pretty weak excuse for offing yourself. There’s a really simple way to guarantee that you will never receive any abuse via Ask.fm: don’t use it.

You’re an idiot and I’m not responding to any more of your comments…

Looking forward to our next chat :)

Asylum seekers are free to leave. The Magdalena weren’t. A ridiculous and unworthy comparison.

Dil “they can’t cook”? The reason being is THEY DON’T HAVE TO COOK, all the meals are provided for them in conjunction with washing services, free TV, free electricity, free medical and last but not least fee legal services. The audacity of you to criticise past injustices in this our country to justify illegality by asylum seekers, who trail their way through other countries only to arrive here illegally, hence their detention! My view we have taken our fair share and a line must be drawn?

……may I elaborate in my previous comment, ALLEGED “ASYLUM SEEKERS”!!!

The asylum system has to be restrictive to prevent it being abused for economic purposes. If they wanted to come here to work they could have applied for a work permit. We have a sovereign right to control our borders. Especially after 911.

When they enter our country ‘ILLEGALY’ there are in essence committing a crime! If I had in anyway assisted in that crime of facilitating foreign nationals with illegal entry. I would not be held in Direct Provision Accommodation. I would be incarcerated facing serious crimes which carry a lengthy prison sentence and rightfully so!

So Bobby you believe the people with documented and evidence of rape, children with evidence of rape… They did this to themselves did they? For free tv as you say! Think about it… 600 currently, granted some may not be real… Percentage to be fair 50% are real lets say… You would begrudge these 300 people who have come through awful ordeals any assistance because why? Because you said enough is enough? Don’t speak for me or my taxes I for one think they don’t get enough and would like to see more money put in to hurry the process up and get these people either back home if not real or set up with training and courses and children into schools.

“Greet self-centred racists” = a population finally copping on to this scam.

There was a time when people could debate a point, make rational arguments and deal with the issues of the day without stooping to throwing around pejorative remarks.

When people start using the good old “racist” remark it always reminds me of a little child who can’t articulate their words and end up calling the adult “Poo Face”.

That’s it Brian. If the truth be told, what’s happening here is a form of reverse racism against the Irish population.

Absolutely agreed Tony. So amazed and disgusted by majority of comments here. It’s like the Daily Mail. We have the highest emigration rates since the famine – yet we’re unwilling to accept ASYLUM seekers because blah blah “what about other areas of welfare”. Why does it have to be one or the other? Can’t we try our best to take care of everyone? If the government are failing carers, which they clearly are, why take it out on asylum seekers? They don’t deserve help because carers are getting cut? That’s ludicrous. The aggression and ignorant simplicity of becoming xenophobic and turning on those different to you because you’re suffering has never worked for any society. These are the attitudes that lead to the creation of BNP and UKIP. I personally am not angry about my welfare rates or tax rates being affected by costs towards asylum seekers, and their DISMAL accommodation. Moan about costs towards connecting the LUAS lines, the bankers, the water rates, etc being put before the needs of carers and people on disabilty – instead of necessary costs to try and look after the most vulnerable of people. One vulnerable group of people are not more important than another. Nope, it’s f*** the foreigners, we were here first and our needs come first. Sound! But, ya know, at least you can move to UK. US. Oz, Canada ANYWHERE in the EU if it’s super shit here and you’re Irish. But people with no choices, thousands of miles from the lives they knew, their families, often having been through horrific trauma – yeah, they’re just sponges, right?

“Can’t we try our best to take care of everyone? ”

Actually, no we can’t. There is nothing xenophobic about pointing out the asylum system is an utter shambles. If you were really concerned about refugees you’d be campaigning for the system to look after UNHCR registered refugees languishing in camps all over the world; not relatively healthy, wealthy and mobile people smuggled into the country by criminal gangs. But then, that doesn’t quite have the same right-on ring to it.

Do you have any evidence to back up your accusations at all? This is about the direct provision system for all asylum seekers in Ireland, not about the presumed “dodgy ones”. You’re lumping a large group of people into a Daily Star fear-mongering notion that there’s tons of “criminals being smuggled over”. It’s pathetic. don’t buy into it. Focus on the real problems of the state’s spending, not on people you don’t know, and conditions that you clearly haven’t looked into, as they are absolutely appalling. Also, people saying here “they should be grateful for a roof over their head” is disgusting. “Well they’re not getting raped and butchered anymore, so who cares if it’s riddled with damp and it’d practically a prison? They should cheer up and be grateful”. Don’t see us telling that to our ex-pats in Oz just cos they’re no longer out of work. They are afforded all the same human rights as Australian people and given the opportunity to create an INDEPENDENT life for themselves. Seriously, cop on.

Beibhin, if we ‘copped on’ all those “asylum seekers” would be out on their head. It’s people like you (a vocal liberal minority) that has this country ad it is. Get a grip FFS.

No Scarr, I did read the article, and the comments. But my comment is in reaction to the regular tranches of bigoted comments that I see on this site. They are not always racist, many have nothing to so with race at all, ranging from misogyny and homophobia, to support for bombing campaigns and war.

Nowhere have I said that I am offended. I take no personal offence to these things, nor do I feel I have any place to feel offended on other people’s behalf. I do feel frustrated, disappointed and angry a lot of the time, but that’s different. I get absolutely no enjoyment or kick out of reading the type of comments I referred to, nor do I feel better after responding.

I don’t understand exactly what you mean by preformed opinions. I would imagine all opinions would have to be formed prior to being communicated. I will continue to preform my opinions based on how I understand that which I witness, acknowledging that my analyses, like everyone else’s, are coloured by personal experience and paradigm.

I don’t know a thing about morals Scarr, I am not a moral person, nor do I believe that a system of morals is important. I suppose I do expect a level of basic human compassion from people, and I do expect people to think a little before condemning others. Perhaps my expectations are too high -and that’s why I feel disappointed.

Anyway Scarr, hope that makes things a bit clearer. Shrieking moralist or offence junkie I am not, nor am I responsible for numbing people to racism.

My sentiments exactly Conor. The puerile level of debate above and the smug lack of empathy in general here is horrible. The most idiotic and nasty cowards are drawn to the Journal – but, in fairness, it’s a good barometer of what we’re like a a nation. Good Luck so…

I know. Open your home and hearth to 20 asylum seekers. You obviously have the compassion that Irish people lack. I’m sure when they complain about the food and accommodation, you will understand their concerns and give them what they want. Just take out loans, go into hock, but be sure your guests have “dignity” while they make you jump through hoops. After all, you are a very compassionate person who should show everyone else how its done.

There is now and always has been a great sense of empathy in this country for asylum seekers! Real asylum seekers. I remember when the Bosnian and Romanian refugees arrived here during the 90′s. They were all living in Cherry Orchard hospital grounds with very little but never complained or moaned about the “system”. Why do you think that is? Because what they had here was so much better than what they were fleeing. It wasn’t better than what they had before war broke out in their country but better than what they left. They were eventually able to work and integrate but didn’t complain in the middle. I used to live next door to a Nigerian woman,she got the 3 bed house from the council. My son was friends with her son. She was showing me pictures of her house and Nigeria and giving out because her “kitchen in Nigeria was bigger than her entire house” here. Her husband still lives there and flies over to see her twice a year. She now has 4 children and never worked a day in her life,a complete welfare bunny! People are entitled to feel angry because it’s the people who see this. Working class people in working class areas. It’s not racism! It annoys people just as much when they see Irish people doing it but we can’t deport them now can we….

@Conor: Nicely said!

Asylum Seekers OR pensioners, disabled and carers hmmm tough choice…….
A friend of mine recently back from Africa, apparently SOME are very well accustomed to ‘western aid’

Conor – thanks for the reply. My problem with your post or posts like it is that it flings the ‘r’ word around where it’s completely inappropriate. I cannot imagine any Irish person taking issue with the gov taking part in a program to accept AS from Syria et al (like we did with Bosnia) but not being willing to take part in a ‘we are the world’ type thinking or accept every Asylum claimant, does not make people racist – if there were in fact racist comments I would back your assertion. Just to add that I don’t buy the ‘they should think themselves lucky to be here’ frame of mind, but there are those who are gaming the system. They’ve not much to lose.

@Andrea:

I agree with you in that no one regardless of who they are should take advantage of the systems that are there to give a person a hand when they are down.

However, I believe that all dark skinned Africans are all being stereo-typed. Not all Africans are Asylum Seekers, not all Asylum Seekers complain, not all dark skinned people raise the R Card whenever convenient… I find it deplorable that, based on comments found on Journal.ie, so many people are quick to make assumptions.

The largest problem that I see this country faces is the abilty to create laws that relates to the evolution of this country and the ability to enforce the laws that we already on the books.

I don’t think are laws are adequate to deal with life 2013. Too many people are taking advantage of the system and making money.

Regarding the article, anyone that is here in this country regardless of their status, deserve to be treated fairly. If they are wards of the state, then they should be guaranteed safe accommodations.

Marlon,the accommodations are safe. They are just not as nice as the private accommodation some asylum seekers live in because the Direct Provision accommodations are full. This is not a race issue and nothing to do with “dark skinned Africans”. We all know that there are African,Asian,Iraqi people etc here working. The 4 GP’s in the practice I attend are from Iraq,Mauritius,China and Sudan. What has that got to do with anything? It’s insulting for you to suggest that Irish people see every foreign face as that of an asylum seeker. The article is about Direct Provision and the asylum process and that is what we are debating.

@Margreat excellently articulated, the Politically Correct Fraternity are once again rambling on with their own delusional version of their moral high ground. While some senior citizens in our country are now having to survive by continuing to work because as the RTE1 documentary stated, “to broke to retire.”

Conor, marlon…. Jog on!

@Andrea: Of course not every Irish person sees every dark skinned person as Asylum seekers. My ooint was in regards to the commentors on this site. For the past two months I’ve been reading the comments. And usually Assylum Seekers, Nigerians and Nigerians using the race card goes hand in hand.

Very few people commenting seldom clarifies between people here legally receiving support/aid/help and thos who are milking the system. They are usually lumped together as one.

My comment was not meant as an insult. But more as an observation.

@Ping Pong: Why don’t you scuttle back into anonymity. The fact that you your screen name hides your identity shaows your lack of conviction.

@Ping Ping…..I second that, if the two named individuals want to defend injustices let them lead the way and they go to the country that the injustices are being carried out. Injustices,not against a few hundred, but against tens of thousands and in some country’s millions!

@ Conor, our next generation of kids will not be bigoted, homophobic or lack compassion for anything in this Country because they simply won’t be here. They will be forced to emigrate either through lack of employment or the lack of wanting to stay within a country which condones corruption. I see big multi nationals coming in here now looking for bilingual staff and the majority of our young don’t stand a chance. I don’t see these companies looking for fluent Irish speakers. Asylum seekers are here and we have to accept it, but I refuse to believe they have it hard. In my book if I fled a country in fear of my life and that of my children’s and be put somewhere where the process is long and dragged out but safe I know where I’d rather be. We cannot take money from the elderly, education and poor and expect to accept it going to pay for asylum seekers because they feel hard done by. If the process is to long for them let them feel free to go home.

Lynn – MNCs look for bilingual staff because they have multiple markets to sell to. It’s not a conspiracy. Irish people can learn languages too – like the French, Spanish and German they teach in school. Also depends what dept you go to – no need for bilingual software developer necessarily.

@ Scarr that was my point, we don’t give our young the option to study languages from an early age as we don’t have the money to fund it, but yet we teach them Irish which has no benefit outside of this Island. But we do have the funds and capability to hire extra staff to teach foreign national children English, which I think puts our own children at a disadvantage later in life. This day and age we should be teaching kids languages from an early age.

Compasssion is fine. What is not fine is being a doormat for those who would take advantage of compassion.

Racist bile, blah blah. Because people are pointing out the obvious? Get a grip man.

But ya see Andrea, those pushing the “racism” accusations don’t want people to know the type of scams that are going on.

@Harry, are you in direct provision over there? Nope. And referenda don’t need to be held for a country to uphold basic human rights.

We have detention centres in Australia. But now, all asylum seekers who come by boat are to be processed in Papua New Guinea or Nauru. In Australia the government has paid out $10.9 million on sorting out the “boat people” issue. Do-gooders can scream, but they won’t pay up. They want government to pay! But the people have spoken, and now government has changed their approach because of the general election in over a week’s time!

So that’s a no then.

Hi deise – ideally 6 months would be theoretically acceptable but it’s hard to make a determination with documents being ‘lost’ etc. I believe all AS should have an acceptable place to stay but it would be hard legally to let them work. The current system is a mess though.

It takes so long here because even when an application is denied,the failed asylum seeker can lodge appeal after appeal,thus prolonging their “stay” here. Money thrown away! That Nigerian woman, Pamela? cost the taxpayer close to a million euro before her lies were finally exposed. Then there was another African woman who flew in with her children but disposed of their passports mid flight. Bogus bogus bogus! She was sentenced to 3 months in prison but while she is there,her children are in care and when she gets out,she will cost the tax payer a fortune before we can get rid of her. Most genuine asylum seekers live in camps just across the border of the country theyre fleeing!

When I see footage of refugees in camps in Africa and the middle east,it’s hard to imagine that they would complain about a roof over their heads,food,medicine and safety. But unfortunately,they are not the people who get here. People keep saying,”imagine if the Irish who emigrated during the Famine were treated like this.” Well guess what? We were treated worse than that! We may have arrived in England,Canada and America but there was no free accommodation,food etc. You either found work to provide or you died there instead of here. As was the case for so many.

Andrea, they were given the legal right to work – that’s not provided to the asylum seekers. By all means, have a debate about immigration, but you are just being untruthful to claim that they refuse to work.

Nick,where did I say that anyone has refused to work? Kindly point that out please…

My “absurd” point is that the AS should not be bitching and moaning about the process and making demands that this country simply cannot afford. Why when an application is denied,does the AS not go home? If they just left then instead of lodging appeal after appeal,they wouldn’t be in DP for as long. They also would not be wasting millions of euro that could be spent elsewhere.

Do you have any evidence of this claim Eamonn? Any citations whatsoever?

@Bebhinn: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/only-25-granted-asylum-last-year-lowest-rate-in-eu-26718014.html

Hi, Bev, Eamonn is kind of right, but is greatly misleading. Very few people qualify for asylum in Ireland (far less than most places in the EU) – but Eamonn has made the unsupported assumption that this means they’re lying. Someone could not be honestly telling their story and then not qualify for refugee status (someone caught up in a civil war or natural disaster, for example).

Of course – he says they’re “faking it”. Just because they don’t get approved doesn’t mean they don’t deserve to. The very article he has linked says “he Irish Refugee Council said that the “shockingly low” approval rate for asylum seekers in Ireland showed that the system was not functioning properly for applicants”.