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Shatter condemns hate mail sent to Muslim Community, says gardaí will take “appropriate action”

An unsigned letter sent to mosques and schools in Ireland warns members of imminent attacks.

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Updated at 6.50pm

JUSTICE MINISTER ALAN Shatter has condemned the sending of hate mail to the Muslim community, and said he is bringing the matter to the attention of Garda Commissioner.

An unsigned letter, which features an image of Michael Collins, was posted to a number of schools and mosques recently, threatening extreme violence if building plans for a new mosque in north Dublin get underway.

The Minister said in a statement that he utterly condemned “racism and religious bigotry in all of their forms” and that he was “appalled by the nature of the letters.

He added: “Religious intolerance has no place in our society.  Incitement to hatred and incitement to violence are offences under our laws.”

The letter states that:

“Your very presence in our country is destroying our heritage and culture and we are calling on our countries’ people to attack any Muslim they come across in shops, taxis or mosques or any other place they come across them.”

“Anyone seen wearing a veil or hijaab will be severely delt with (sic),” it continues.

The letter also states “we will attack any Muslim man, women and child that enters any mosque in Ireland and especially if the new larger mosque is build (sic) in North Dublin. And our children will attack yours in schools…”

The intimidation has been condemned by the Irish Anti-War Movement and the Immigration Council of Ireland today. Gardaí have opened an investigation.

Read the full letter here.

“A hate campaign against the Muslim community in Dublin must be fully investigated and those responsible prosecuted,” said the Immigrant Council of Ireland in a statement.

“The emergence of this letter and its threats is both sinister and alarming. The language used is that more often associated with right wing extremists which have re-emerged in other parts of Europe,” added CEO Denise Charlton.

“The Immigrant Council is committed to working with the Gardaí to combat racism and is requesting that the force use all available resources to establish which group or individual is behind the letters and the internet postings and to ensure that they face the full rigour of the law.

“The response to this incident will test the effectiveness of Irelands Incitement to Hatred legislation.

“The tone and language of the letter does not allow for ambiguity, it is by any definition an act of hatred and should be prosecuted as such,” she added.

According to the IAWM, some Muslim girls have received letters specifically referring to their waring of the Hijab.

The group noted:

It is evident from the letter that the mosque planned to be build in Clongriffin, near the Priory Hall site in North Dublin, is likely one of the excuses for this extremely racist reaction.

“This letter is unspeakably shameful and disgusting. The author(s) of this ‘porn’ claim to represent ‘the Irish People’ (whatever that imaginary monolith is) but that claim is an insult to Irish people. So it’s not just Muslims that are being insulted.

“The letter is also deeply disturbing as it contains a picture of Michael Collins at the top. The Irish Government must denounce this letter immediately as it is a clear incitement to racial hatred and racial violence.”

Additional reporting, Daragh Brophy.

Read: Racist graffiti scrawled on walls during Halal store ransacking

BAI: ‘Racist and prejudicial’ comments went unchallenged on 4FM show

More: Human Rights Commissioner slams media reporting of Roma child cases

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625 Comments
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    Mute Paul Somers
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:30 PM

    WTF, no one in Ireland condones violence based on religious beliefs, certainly not with a picture of Michael Collins, and certainly not acting on my behalf. Those who ‘warn of violence’ are sick deprived degenerates deserving of a slap. Hopefully nothing happens to anyone under the guise of religion, and the degenerates are dealt with accordingly.

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    Mute rotund jocularity
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:58 PM

    Paul I agree but saying you don’t condone violence then saying some deserve a slap… made me smile.

    258
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    Mute kksjddjjdn
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:39 PM

    I like Muslims they make good kebabs and they are tougher and sounder than most irish, especially so your average journal.ie commenttor – liberal fools
    But if this is the start of some epic muslim v irish war then I must fight with the ponsy irish as that is my birth culture – sorry Muslims – but sure you’ll probably win so kebabs on you after

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    Mute Paul Somers
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:59 PM

    @Rotund, delighted I made you smile. The slap is based on non religious grounds, if it was religious grounds it would have been 2 Our Fathers, 3 Hail Marys and a bollocking from the pontiff.

    Since as I am a non practicing Catholic I will not condone violence based on ethnic nor religious grounds, but on thuggery / bullying / theft I will

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    Mute Paul Reed
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:39 PM

    You jus won the price “Idiot of the Year”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcsG-u2GtZE. If you like tougher and sounder people get some Italians or Spanish… They will have a kebab between their legs for you!

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    Mute Guapito Donnochito O'Ceallaigh
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    Nov 27th 2013, 12:15 PM

    It might not be expressed in politics or the media but Islamophobia and general racism are on the rise. We may not have the same types of Neo-Nazi groups that are springing up in other European countries but we have a polite group of secret racists and an indifferent majority.

    5
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    Mute Guapito Donnochito O'Ceallaigh
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    Nov 27th 2013, 12:20 PM

    Being a Catholic, non practicing or practicing has nothing to do with not condoning violence. It just means that you are a decent human being. The Catholic Church have perpetrated shameful acts of violence throughout their history e.g. their implicit involvement in the colonization of Latin America.

    6
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    Mute Yusuf Jamal
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:19 PM

    I read the full letter and it is quite clear a social degenerate nerd wrote it. It should not be taken seriously.

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    Mute Montys Moonshine
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:28 PM

    A social degenerate nerd who can’t figure out what the caps lock button is for. My brain hurts after reading it

    226
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    Mute Tony Clifton
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:29 PM

    The cap locks is quite effective though.
    I can just imagine the person shouting the letter:)

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    Mute Larry Bird
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:31 PM

    Exactly, and i don’t think the media should cover it as it gives this person the attention they want.

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    Mute Tony Clifton
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:39 PM

    Well you see it suit a certain agenda to publish this story.
    If I can make a serious point without being shot down we have had a serious influx of people from all over the world in Ireland over the last twenty years.
    We have not had a civilised debate on this.
    Anybody who questions this immigration policy is branded a racist.
    No to make things worse we have Alan shatter as justice minister who has lost the run of himself giving Irish passports to asylum seekers at a rate never seen.
    You just have to look at news reports,he holds ceremonies were he gives them out by the thousands.
    We have ghettos starting to form in parts of Dublin with Nigerians especially west Dublin but its will be ok let just sweep it all under the carpet.

    320
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    Mute Niall Noonan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:44 PM

    Tony we could have a proper debate about it if people started dealing with truths.

    In 2012 we gave 140 asylum seekers passports in total. That’s not a typo, we only gave out 140, which is one of the lowest rates in the EU.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-asylum-seekers-eu-955725-Jun2013/

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    Mute Preacain
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:52 PM

    Me too, and anyone who thinks that crap is remotely connected with republicanisim is being led astray, it is anti moslem and very defamitory to republican beliefs, the content it is very similar to the BNP’s anti Irish propaganda and there is collusion between loyalist paramilitaries mi5 / mi6 the bnp etc

    103
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    Mute Tony Clifton
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:52 PM

    Ye right on the 22 of October I attended an Irish citizen award ceremony must have been at least 400 Africans receiving Irish citizenship that day.

    169
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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:03 PM

    @Tony….There’s a difference between receiving citizenship and getting refugee status granted.

    Ireland has a poor record wrt how we deal with refugees.

    122
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    Mute Tony Clifton
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:05 PM

    I know that.
    Question for you how would all these African people be entitled to Irish citizenship?

    147
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    Mute James Owens
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:07 PM

    @Tony, those Africans you have an issue with were not asylum seekers, they are immigrants who have made a life here and worked and contributed to Irish society.

    167
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    Mute Tony Clifton
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:10 PM

    So you are saying they came here with working visas? That I doubt

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:11 PM
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    Mute Niall Noonan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:11 PM

    By going through the proper procedures Tony, same as Irish people looking to become US citizens.

    If they’ve come to this country legally, have lived and worked here and want to become an Irish citizen what’s the problem? We should be proud that people want to make this their home.

    176
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    Mute Rossa Crowe
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:17 PM

    When I was in Australia I worked for a vietnamese man. I noticed that I was often working in whole areas where people didnt speak english. The guy working alongside me was a Hindu from Nepal. Lovely guy, and everyday he amazed me with his culture and views. Needless to say our conversations were interesting to say the least.
    We worked in areas which were mainly lebanese (mainly muslim) also.
    The only thing that bothered me was it seemed like there was a lack of integration by whole communities of people in that country.
    I would hate to see that happen in Ireland but while immigration is on the rise the world over I think we should concentrate on ways of integrating people both foreign and native.
    I too have noticed areas around dublin becoming almost no go areas for irish people and I think this a a bit sad and very difficult to undo.

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    Mute Richard Curtis
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:19 PM

    I bet the idiot held down the shift key the whole 5 hours it took him to write it

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    Mute Richard Curtis
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:23 PM

    Why not? There are quite a lot of ‘Irish’ people who murder, kidnap, assault and maim in this country. They don’t deserve citizenship

    51
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    Mute Daniel Lydon
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:25 PM

    Lol you obviously haven’t passed by any welfare offices in the last 8 years

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    Mute James Owens
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:35 PM

    You are free to doubt it as long as you acknowledge your assumptions are based on prejudice and not on objective data. If you HAVE data then share the link and I will happily retract my post

    38
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    Mute Daniel Lydon
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:57 PM

    Not saying they don’t work but the majority don’t and claim for about 8 kids,rent allowance etc.

    My advice take a drive through tyyrelstown in west dublin the area was built to cater for foreign nationals that are on welfare/rent allowance

    133
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    Mute Kate A. Rose
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:08 PM

    It’s one thing to question immigration policy, and you are correct that these conversations should occur. it is a completely different thing to send an unsigned, anonymous letter to religious institutions and schools threatening to attack Muslims in Mosques or schools. It’s a cowardly act by someone who is scared of change. The author argues that Ireland is for “real Irish.” Give me a break. For hundreds of years people have argued about what that means, and it’s still being argued about in the 21st century.

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    Mute Kate A. Rose
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:10 PM

    So you ARE saying they don’t work.

    28
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    Mute Daniel Lydon
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:16 PM

    Yeah but the problem is over 50% want to make this place their home for all the wrong reasons.expoilt and absoultely milk the welfare system dry etc

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    Mute John Deane
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:20 PM

    I have a question to ask. How many of the people who gained Irish citizenship actually knows the history of Ireland. If you asked them about the Easter Rising or the what the famine was. Most of them wouldnt have a clue.

    Any person who wants to get Irish Citizenship should be forced to sit an exam on the history of Ireland. If they fail they shouldnt be awarded Irish Citizenship.

    102
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    Mute John
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:32 PM

    Less than 10% of African migrants arrived to this country with visa – FACT! Most came here through the now defunct Irish Born Child rules, Anyone (Irish or not) who had a child here from 1998 – 2005, the child was entitled to automatic citizenship and the family were also eligible for Irish citizenship, some of you may remember a time not so long ago when almost every African woman in Ireland was pregnant to exploit this rule, it was well documented in the media at the time, it took a referendum which passed by a large majority to close this loophole but the damage was already done – the way it worked was come here without paperwork apply for asylum have a child in the state and then withdraw from asylum process.

    126
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    Mute Gamasello Nohto
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:34 PM

    I think it’s written by someone who’s trying to create a social conflict between two communities or a person who wants to take a piss. I’m from Middle-east and have to say we middle-easterns like being ‘the victim’ so i didn’t find this letter genuine. How many taxi drivers were attacked because they are muslim? yes, those taxi drivers were mostly Nigerian or other African country origin and more than half of them are Christian (weird sects like holy spirit, flying ghost etc. we know that those attacks had racial background) and using Micheal Collins is make no-sense. Apart from this i have never faced any negative reaction because of being Arabic looking in Ireland in last 5 years and I had the best social-experience in Europe.

    70
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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:40 PM

    I don’t understand how it is that any group of foreign nationals get attacked due to the state’s poor action on immigration policy.

    It also always gives me a giggle in the light of how many Irish head to America and stay illegally.

    46
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    Mute Ben Gunn
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:47 PM

    How well do Irish people know their own history? That is just about the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

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    Mute Gamasello Nohto
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:52 PM

    @John Deane, probably few of them because they don’t need to know this information or even English to get a passport . I don’t blame these people for this though.

    The conditions to get Irish citizenship is very straight forward: have a valid stamp on the passport, have a residency for 5 years. pay 170+950 Euros… then you are a citizen.

    Irish born child scheme was very easy to abuse, the only good thing that McDowell (PD guy) has done in his life i think, changed the legislation. According to the new IBC scheme at least ONE OF the parents should have a legal residency for minimum 3 years to have an IBC.

    Still easiest citizenship in Europe.

    46
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    Mute Bramley Hawthorne
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:56 PM

    Republicanism? Collins was a Free Stater.

    22
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    Mute an Gealach Gorm
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:01 PM

    Very sexist.. Could have been written by a laydeee

    23
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    Mute Alison Kerplunk-Hasselhoff
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:10 PM

    As do hundreds upon hundreds of Irish citizens. It’s easy to blame people for taking advantage of an overly generous system, why not take issue with the system itself? All talk/moan and no action. Typical Irish sentiment.

    28
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    Mute Gamasello Nohto
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:18 PM

    Spot on Alison… Those people are benefiting the rights granted by the Irish Law. What they are doing is completely legal, and only the Irish politicians elected by the Iris people are in charge of changing the Law. Simple as it is.

    29
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    Mute Penelope Wizzlehurst
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:22 PM

    It’s actually spelled exploit. You are are aware that the majority of non-EU nationals cannot access social welfare in this country? So I’m not sure where you are getting this ‘milk the welfare system’ cliche from.

    37
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    Mute John
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:13 PM

    @Penelope. Wrong! All they have to do to access welfare is prove ‘habitual residency’, ie. They’re are here to stay and not going back and…… Welfare Train. Open your eyes, do you think the Roma worked and pay for those houses they live in?

    69
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    Mute Luke Coyne
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:17 PM

    Then surely the bigger problem is that we have a welfare system that’s so easily abused!

    50
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    Mute Simon Jester
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:20 PM

    Means about 90% of native Irish people would fail that exam.Have the country empty in no time at all!

    35
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    Mute Margaret Cantwell
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:21 PM

    If you read the three questions the writer of this letter asked (directly under the photo of Michael Collins) of the Muslims living in Dublin – you will find the key to the angry, violent tone of the rest of the letter. While the majority of Muslims living in Ireland are probably happy living here and do their best to integrate into our society, the truth is that there is a minority who are attempting to proseletyse their religion among the Irish people and eventually hope to bring in Islamic Sharia Law. This minority of muslims are following fundamentalist Islamic philosophy, and make no attempt to integrate themselves or their children into our society, are are the ones building more mosques and schools to keep their children separated, educationally and philosophically, from our Irish culture. This is not helpful for either culture.

    While I think the tone of the writer’s letter is threatening and violent, is a disgrace and should not have been written. This is definitely not the way to deal with the problem. A more peaceful and lawful way should be attempted, but at the same time people should wake up and realise we have a genuine problem with the fundamentalist minority of the supporters of Islamic Sharia Law here in Ireland. They have already created many Islamic Ghettoes in parts of the U.K., especially in Waltham Forest, London. They have taken over up to 25% of several Northern European countries … Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, etc. It can be checked up in various documentaries and interviews on Youtube, and it is very alarming. There are a number of politicians and journalists in these countries attempting to bring this problem to light, and to warn other countries to be more alert to this problem. Some of the politicians and journalists have been murdered for criticising the fundamentalists. Also, there are parts of Paris, where they were taking over and blocking several streets for their Friday prayers, and Parisians could not even gain access to their homes, and roads were blocked to traffic. The excuse they made was there was not enough room in their local mosque. In Waltham Forest, London, they have Sharia Patrols out at night harassing English people passing near their ghettoes, verbally insulting the women if they are wearing western clothing, etc.

    There is also evidence available from Wikileaks, that the Islamic Centre in Dublin is a large branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, which get their orders/instructions from an outlawed Islamic cleric, who has been banned from entering Ireland, a couple of years ago. There is much more to this subject than meets the eye. Some of these fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood “Irish” citizens recently took part in the riots in Egypt, and were jailed.

    Our Government certainly has a problem on their hands, and sooner or later they will have to find a solution to this problem which is looming on the Irish horizon …. and which is a problem which has now become very serious and out of control in the U.K., Denmark, Norway, Netherlands, Sweden and Belgium. But hatred, threats and violence is never acceptable.

    106
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    Mute SMcB
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:21 PM

    Can’t we all not just get along FFS? The Irish are one of the most travelled races in the world, chances is that you’ll find an Irish man or woman in most parts of the world, and that’s even before it was fashionable to travel and seek out the world. Its a nonsense to think that we have individuals who give out about immigration policy when the Irish themselves have been accepted as immigrants all over the world.

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    Mute Patrick O'Reilly
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:24 PM

    I doubt main “Irish” people would pass that exam!!!

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:34 PM

    Funny.. Back in the early part of the 1900s there was a certain sector of society that chose to keep to themselves, they had their own laws, their own customs and integration was not really permitted in their religion.. They were peaceful people – they may have had some harsher elements, but they weren’t out to do harm..

    Governments all over Europe were agonising over what to do about these groups who lived in ghettos and didn’t seem interested in fitting in.. Then one country decided to implement the “final solution” and the rest is history..

    How quickly we all forget..

    32
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    Mute Jho Harris
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:53 PM

    Niall Noonan according to The Jornal.ie from July 4th 2013 and I quote

    “THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE became Irish citizens during a ceremony in Dublin today.
    The citizenship ceremonies were held at the Convention Centre in the capital, with more than 4,500 people attending.
    There, they took an oath of fidelity to the nation, and received their certificate of naturalisation.
    The certificate marks their new status as Irish citizens.
    In May, 2,080 people became new Irish citizens, while 3,000 were made citizens in March”

    seems you cannot believe everything you read in The Journal.

    26
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    Mute Niall Noonan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:03 PM

    But that’s citizenship, not asylum seekers which is what I was responding to and what that article referred to. People will always come here for citizenship and we will always go abroad and apply in countries like the US, Canada and Australia. I don’t see the problem with that.

    34
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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:16 PM

    Rossa, I would have thought the indigenous culture of Australia was Aboriginal – the Europeans are only a wet day there! How did they integrate? I have to ask you why people must ‘integrate’. What difference does it make to me as a native Irish person if my neighbour is from India and wears Indian clothes and listens to Indian music? Do you think the Irish in America – with their Irish dancing classes and Irish pubs – have integrated and dare not show their identity? How about the Italians? Greeks? Ireland is a diverse country. A small minority now actually follow and live the Catholic faith. I am an Atheist – should I ‘integrate’ by being forced to go to mass??? How do different cultural beliefs really threaten us so long as people are following the laws of our land? It just seems incredibly mean-spirited I have to say.
    I would love to hear about the no-go areas in Dublin – what do you mean?

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    Mute James King
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:17 PM

    Christian signs at taxi ranks?

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    Mute Penelope Wizzlehurst
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:19 PM

    John the Roma are EU citizens…

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    Mute sarlourosa
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:45 PM

    Well said Margaret

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    Mute richardmccarthy
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:48 PM

    Looks like you are trying to justify this dumb nutter’s bigotry in our country,bad move Tony,most Irish people are not bigots and treat those from other countries just like they would like to be treated themselves, trying to stir up racial hatred is a really stupid move.

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:01 PM

    Or when their asylum application is denied,appeal and they get social welfare and medical cards and rent allowance.Also however much people think its a myth its not.They are getting money for cars on the ground of being racially abused on buses allegedly.

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:02 PM

    What’s that got to do with threatening harm to Muslim children going to a mosque?

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:12 PM

    Margaret, I’m not sure where you’re getting your information. France has the highest proportion of Muslims at something between 5-10%. Long way from 25%. And you also assume that all Muslims are the same. It’s like saying that the KKK are American, Obama is American, therefore Obama is KKK. The chaps in Waltham Forest could be counted on the fingers of one hand and were dealt with by the local Muslim community taking them aside and asking them to stop.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:24 PM

    I saw plenty of pictures of Muslims forming a wall around Coptic Christians to keep them safe during the riots in Egypt.
    There were Muslims bringing the EDL tea and biscuits not that long ago was there not? And I have seen strict condemnation of extremism from Muslim clerics on several TV news shows (the one sticking out in my mind was on channel 4 news – but I haven’t had a TV in some time).

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:57 PM

    Shanti – yes, channel 4 is a notable exception. Actually, most of the UK broadcast media is fair. The papers are another matter. My point in a general one. News sellers like conflict. It sells.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:51 AM

    What about the ones who came here on working visas? The ones who migrated legally Tim. Because I think you will find that there are many Africans working here legally – try the health sector.. Lots of African priests too funnily enough.

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    Mute John
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:02 AM

    @Shanti. Less than 5% of African migrants came to Ireland legitimately (through the visa process), the stats are there to prove it. Look up work permits awarded to Africans between 1999-2013, the numbers don’t add up with permits issued and the number here according to the difference, something like close to a 99% discrepancy.
    And of the 5% here in medical sector legitimately, a sizable amount have been sacked for malpractice, here’s the latest story of this in Indo today.
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/doctor-lied-about-having-sex-with-three-patients-inquiry-hears-29782384.html
    Probably bought his medical degree in a market in Lagos

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    Mute Declan Byrne
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:09 AM

    Margaret, if a minority of people are breaking the law, or illegally trying to force their will on people, then the police should do their job and arrest them. It’s wrong to punish an entire community based on the behavior of a few. There was a lot of anti-Irish sentiment in the UK during the troubles because of the actions of a few. Would you have recommended the same actions be applied in this situation?

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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:10 AM

    Well said Richard

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 26th 2013, 8:32 AM

    @ Richard – any chance you might clarify which Tony you’re referring too? I certainly don’t want my name potentially attached to any such sentiment…

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    Mute Richard Curtis
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    Nov 26th 2013, 8:29 PM

    So you obviously know all about the reasons behind the 1798 rebellion then eh?

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    Mute richardmccarthy
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    Nov 26th 2013, 8:41 PM

    Apologies about the confusion Tony,i was referring to Tony Cliftons comment.

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 26th 2013, 8:44 PM

    I appreciate the reply richard!

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    Mute evan bennett
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:20 PM

    Considering you’re a muslim and therefore biased by extension your comment should not be taken seriously either.

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    Mute richardmccarthy
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:02 PM

    Anti semetic people like you should be prosecuted for racial abuse.

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    Mute Anton
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    Jan 17th 2014, 9:21 AM

    Karen, asylum seekers get direct provision, not social welfare. They do not get free cars or mobile phones, or whatever other lies you’ve been told by bigots.

    Please don’t continue to spread lies.

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    Mute James Patrick Smith
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:03 PM

    Religious beliefs should never be in violation of human rights and the laws of the land.People can worship what they like as long it doesn’t incite hatred and savagery and break the law.

    Religion all too often gets a free pass as people pander to it but it should be held to account and the likes of Sharia Law challenged not because it’s a different view but because it contains some barbaric views.

    Any Muslim care to answer what the penalty for apostasy is?(yes it’s Death)
    Or should women be treated with utter contempt and subjected to a role of servants due to a doctrine?
    Not to mention the Danish Cartoon incident.

    Radical Islam and Radical Christianity are major problems in the World.
    The framework of how they become radical starts with Religious beliefs and intolerance and the results can be devastating.What’s wrong with logic sense and reason surely it’s a better option to dogmatic doctrines.

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:13 PM

    Absolutely – there should be an open conversation about all of that.

    But you’re talking sense there, whereas this letter is nonsense.

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    Mute Daragh McDowell
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:18 PM

    ” Sharia Law challenged not because it’s a different view but because it contains some barbaric views.”

    ‘Sharia Law’ doesn’t really exist, at least in terms of one accepted set of laws that every Muslim is supposed to follow. All it is is a blanket term for legal norms set by an Islamic religious authority – hence what is ‘Sharia’ in Iran is different than in Saudi, UAE, Pakistan etc. That’s not even to bring in Central Asia in which the local variant of Islam is comparatively egalitarian towards men and women. Also – the idea of apostasy as deserving death is still highly contested.

    In other words, not always a great idea to declare how to ‘fix’ a religion when you’re not really au fait with what its adherents actually believe.

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:42 PM

    Daragh, I’m surprised. I though the Koran was the word of God? Can’t God write a book that is clear? Is the Koran so badly written that some people interpret it to mean wear a tent over your head and kill unbelievers and others says it demands peace and the equality of all people? Maybe it’s just 700 year old made up superstitious nonsense?

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:23 PM

    “We will attack any man, woman or child” is also barbaric.”

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    Mute Antonov Merinov
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:46 PM

    History should have taught you what Islam is all about and the dangers it poses if allowed to infiltrate western beliefs.

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:58 PM

    History has taught me of the dangers of “western” beliefs too. And that’s why I am against the far-right.

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    Mute margaret
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:37 PM

    I think “kill the unbeliever whereever you may find him” is pretty clear.

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:52 PM

    I do believe it is nothing more than scare tactics or a prank.Albeit a sick prank.Well i hope anyway.

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:42 PM

    William I agree that there are certainly many inconsistencies in the religious books of different faiths – Christianity is no exception – fundamentalists can find plenty to support a more violent and belligerent approach in the Old Testament, and indeed some do. But there will always be people who, through their own fear and lack of self-worth who will take the path of fear and hatred. I certainly do not believe that god wrote all these books, but it is so obvious that pointing out the inconsistencies is really like shooting fish in a barrel. People want to believe what they want to believe, and that’s OK so long as they are not breaking the law or acting with hatred against others in society.

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    Mute Christopher Flood
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:48 PM

    I don’t believe any of the yrs old nonsense. However I think Ireland should monitor Muslim activity very carefully as this cult is on the rise. Brain washed to believe anything they abid by laws that are so one sided.. free people from this ridiculous belief. It’s nice to think of life after death but the reality is we live and die. So make the most of your life without believe dead peoples bullshit please !!!

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:00 PM

    And there is similar sentiments in the Torah and the NT, both of which have been followed through on by the believers throughout history..

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:22 PM

    Miss Filed, “I certainly do not believe that god wrote all these books”. Somewhat ambiguous. Do you believe there is a god? If so which one or ones? Did he/it/she/they/them write some of them?

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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:48 PM

    William Grogan, I think I am with you since I am an atheist and generally find religious beliefs, shall we say, unhelpful. I was not addressing your comments in all of what I said btw. I get what you were saying and agree, except that I think it is hypocritical of others commenting here to single out one religion and I suspect it is actually more racist than anything else – they all have their fundamentalists too. When I say that criticising religious texts and their inconsistencies is like shooting fish in a barrel, I suppose I am trying to pull myself up, since it is so easy to find inconsistencies, and I don’t want to be superior. So long as religious beliefs are not forced on me in my life (as they very much are in Ireland) I am OK with what anybody wishes to believe. Hope that clears things up a bit. :-)

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    Mute Hazel Byrne- Ghani
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:15 AM

    It’s spelt Qu’ran!!!

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    Mute Tom Rooney
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    Nov 26th 2013, 4:44 AM

    Miss Filed, a typical pseudo intellectual who’s not all that intellectual in reality.
    You should never talk about things you know nothing about and it is very clear you know nothing about Judeo-Christianity. The Old testament or Torah, was a set of rules to be adhered to under a theocratic society, those rules are not applicable in and have no place in modern society and Christians who know their faith know this. Jesus came with the new testament which is the book that holds prominence for Catholics and Christians, so your comparison was wrong and irrelevant.

    The reason that it is irrelevant is because the Qu-ran and Islam is not just a religion, it is a way of life that demands total submission from its adherents. This book is rife with violence and justification for savagery even in the modern day. You did not compare like with like, or faith with faith in a logical or knowledgeable manner.

    All that said, whoever is behind that letter is either a degenerate or a very intelligent quango looking for an increase in state sponsored funding for Islamic groups.

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    Nov 26th 2013, 9:44 AM
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    Mute Paul Reed
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:42 PM

    The big question is: why should the Irish be tolerant to a fascist ideology as it is Islam? Why should we care if our symbols, habits, traditions and freedoms will offend muslims??? Do they care about us? Just recent an Muslim said in Limerick that Jesus doesn’t exist and shouldn’t we bring him to justice (Defamation Act 2009) as blasphemous matter? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gorvCM-XgrA They will start a riot if any of us said the Ala doesn’t exist after all… Or are we so afraid of standing up for our culture that we are willing to replace it by other? Just last week in the UK Sheikh Muhammad Al Shareef said that Freedom of religion and freedom of expression are blasphemous and “false ideals. Muslims should not associate with non-Muslims, and Muslims should not send their children to non-Islamic schools. And people who have sex outside of marriage, blasphemers and Muslims who leave the faith should be KILLED, according to some speakers at this weekend’s Islamic Global Peace & Unity (GPU) conference in London. After all in IRELAND the majority (57 percent) of young Irish Muslims (under 26) believe Ireland should become an Islamic State… Are we safe, or are we blind by the media and the concept of being tolerant to stone age cultures? Or Islam is a religion for peace? Really… Whatc this from the mouth of Islam leaders in UK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64V09tTIjR4

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:48 PM

    The usual answer to that point is that Islam is perfect but Muslims are not.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 26th 2013, 4:15 PM

    Paul.
    Where did that guy say Jesus didn’t exist?
    He said Jesus was a Muslim – so he definitely reckons Jesus existed..
    He also said Jesus wasn’t god – can you direct me to the verse in the bible where he says he is?
    No Muslim would say Jesus didn’t exist because they consider Jesus to be a prophet – same as Moses and Mohammed, they just don’t go in for the whole Jesus was the direct son of god thing – in order to do so one would have to believe in the immaculate conception, and there’s Christians who don’t even believe that (wasn’t that Martin Luther’s problem with it?).

    And you are calling for him to be prosecuted under the blasphemy law for this?

    Seeing as you got that so woefully wrong I don’t see the point in entertaining the rest of your comment. It sounds like you are trying to stir things up that aren’t there – anyone who watches the video of the man in Limerick can see that for themselves.

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 26th 2013, 4:34 PM

    The Bible says that Jesus is also God made man (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:8).
    We see that Jesus is called God in John 1:1,14;
    ONLY God forgives sins , gives life and makes laws . Stick to OM and shanti and butt out of Christianity .

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 4:49 PM

    Actually, Muslims believe in the immaculate conception. But a Muslim nativity play would have a small cast. No shepherds, no wise men, no Herod, no innkeeper, no Joseph. Just Mary and her baby under a date palm.

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 26th 2013, 5:07 PM

    It is refreshing to see an intelligent comment here . Most people don’t realise – the ultimate goals of Islam ..because thy have not read the Quran or the Hadiths .
    Islam is at war with non-muslims – Dar al Harb ! Look it up .

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 26th 2013, 5:29 PM

    Seb, wow! I need. A bit chilling, see this summary, “Salafists (aka Sunnis) seek to reform Islam by specifically emulating the first generation of Muslims since, according to these Salafists, later generations of Muslims have been corrupted by several centuries of religious practices and Western influences introduced by errant Muslims. Salafists reject any behavior that was not specifically supported or enjoined by the Prophet Mohammed. In almost every Sunni Muslim country, the Salafists have spawned radical fundamentalist-Islamic political movements, the goal of which is to compel the state to apply the Sharia. Many Salifists believe that the strict application of the Sharia is necessary to ensure that Muslims walk the true path of the Prophet. These radical fundamentalist-Islamic groups see the world divided in two spheres; that is, Dar-al-Islam (House of Islam or Islamic Zone), where peace reigns (Sallam), and the Dar-al-Harb (House of War or War Zone), which prevents a true Islamic state. The latter is viewed by these radical fundamentalist-Islamic groups to include all “infidel” areas that must ultimately be conquered. Global jihad is the constant effort to achieve this goal. The global jihad against Dar-al-Harb is not exclusively directed towards the outside world, but also against perceived internal threats, such as any non-Muslim presence in Dar-al-Islam.”

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    Nov 26th 2013, 5:56 PM

    yeepie ! So ?

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 6:11 PM

    I’ve been hanging around Muslims for 20 years. Never once heard anyone say they felt the need to kill an unbeliever. Maybe you could stop watching nasty videos on Facebook and meet some real people to get a more rounded view.

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    Mute Tom Rooney
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    Nov 26th 2013, 7:46 PM

    Shanti, the only problem with what you’ve claimed is that there is no evidence at all that Mohammed was a prophet from God, other than his own claim. He never performed miracles, he admitted himself that he sinned several times per day and the Qu-ran is a book that condones lying to non muslims if it is in the interests of Islam. I’ve read the Qu-ran and hadith many times, I know more about what’s written in the Qu-ran than most Muslims do, do don’t come on here trying to peddle lies and waffle, it won’t work.

    Muslims don’t believe in the same Jesus as Christians do, they deny the true nature of the Christian Jesus and have invented a false one in an attempt to attract credibility. The Qu-ran is a painful book to read, it is not chronological and makes very little sense on its own, hence the reason the Hadith is needed to understand what is being said in the Qu-ran, hardly the perfect word of God.

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    Nov 26th 2013, 8:26 PM

    Sorry Tom, but you seem to be suggesting that the bible is any better.

    History is littered with religious wars where different sides try to violently force their point of view. The answer of an all out offensive on any of these faith groups has never worked and will never work.

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    Nov 26th 2013, 10:30 PM

    Tony, The Bible is most certainly better. Western society and culture can directly be attributed to the influence of the Bible and Christianity, the first University’s in Europe were started by the Christian church. The main focus of the new testament is love for our fellow man, total selflessness and sincere piety.

    You can thank the influence of Christianity for the many freedoms you take for advantage every day.
    As for wars, you’re just repeating the same ill thought out mantra’s of those who know too little and are too lazy to learn about the true causes of faith wars.

    The commonly referred to ‘crusades’ were defensive in nature, the Islamic hoards had over ran Christendom in a ruthless and terrifying manner, all of north Africa and the middle east was part of Christendom until Islamic hoards murdered and pillaged their way through it, they then set their sights on Europe and conquered Spain, they got all the way up to southern France before the Christian nations began to fight back in defence, and thank God they did fight back.

    Besides this defensive war, most other wars were started by man, power hungry empires or sadistic communist humanists, who have many more times the number of deaths on their hands than can be attributed to any religion.

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    Nov 26th 2013, 10:41 PM

    Tom, consistently suggesting that others have not done as much reading or have not informed themselves as you have adds nothing to the discussion.

    Your viewpoint is biased by your faith. And your faith is the rose tinted glasses through which you can pick and choose your version of christianity.

    There’s no religion I know of which is not jealous, misogynistic, genocidal, homo”phobic”, racist and harmful. That’s my viewpoint; my opinion – you will tell me I’m wrong, and you’re entitled to – but I’m also entitled to my opinion.

    As for the bible being better – maybe it is, but it’s all relative – all religious core texts are harmful – especially when taken literally taken literally as far as I’m concerned.

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    Nov 26th 2013, 10:52 PM

    Tony, your lack of knowledge on the subject is evident with each line of twaddle you type.
    I’m merely pointing out the obvious to you as you appear to be oblivious to your own ignorance on the subject. The funny part is you’re trying to cast opinion as some sort of expert, your smug arrogance is palpable.

    Your statement Re: Jealousy, genocide etc. Is nothing but a further demonstration of your blinkered and ignorant world view.

    You are certainly entitled to be ignorant and uninformed, but is that really something you want to be?

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    Nov 26th 2013, 11:21 PM

    Wow – as a matter of fact Tom, I was very careful to make sure that I highlighted that it was only my opinion. I claim no expertise but what I have interpreted.

    You’ve really said nothing except to continue with berating others and suggesting they are beneath you. I’m afraid you’ve sunk to quite a low level there.

    I don’t really mind how you read what I’ve said – you appear to have imagined smugness when none was intended and really Tom, you have no idea who I or anyone else here really is.

    I wish you well – I’ve enjoyed discussions here with people who have differing views before – it seems like you’re determined just to flame though and pretty much contribute nothing.

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    Mute Kevin Flanagan
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    Nov 27th 2013, 4:20 AM

    I like to picture Jesus in a tuxedo T-shirt. ‘Cause it says like, I wanna be formal but I’m here to party too. I like to party, so I like my Jesus to party

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    Mute Tom Rooney
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    Nov 27th 2013, 8:39 AM

    Kevin there’s only 1 man in the entire history of the world that actually turned water into wine just so the party wouldn’t end. Jesus is the O.G party animal.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:30 AM

    Of all the insults to intelligence that you’ve passed to other people Tom, claiming the conversion of water into wine as “history” has to be your crowning glory.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:53 AM

    It was a joke you fool. But putting that aside, According to Roman historical sources of the time namely Josephus, there were many first hand accounts of miracles performed by Yeshua (Jesus)

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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:58 AM

    You do realise that green thumbing your own comments is like high fiving yourself in public?

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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:05 AM

    I’ve done no such thing, but you’re assertion is telling, it has all the signs of projection, as in you projecting or trying to project your feelings about yourself onto others.

    Also, you do realise going off on a tangent when you’ve just had your ass handed to you just makes you look like a bigger fool. Check mate, game, set, match and I’m out.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:20 AM

    Ah yes, thanks for the amateur psychology there Tom. I feel so sad now, I think I’ll go and have a cry.

    I see you’re still trying for the last word though eh?

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:36 AM

    Maybe those muslims need to read their Quran again !

    Quran : 8:65

    Sahih International
    O Prophet, urge the believers to battle. If there are among you twenty [who are] steadfast, they will overcome two hundred. And if there are among you one hundred [who are] steadfast, they will overcome a thousand of those who have disbelieved because they are a people who do not understand.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:40 AM

    Qur’an (9:29) – “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger,

    Qur’an (8:39) – “And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah)

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    Nov 27th 2013, 11:43 AM

    Bible on a range of topics:

    1 Timothy 2:12
    “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent.”
    Bit of a glass ceiling there….

    1 Samuel 15:3
    “This is what the Lord Almighty says … ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”
    Nothing like a bit of genocide…

    Psalm 137
    “Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us / He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.”

    Romans 1:27
    “In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.”
    A little bit more than homo”phobia”….

    Psalm 144:1-2
    “Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle; My lovingkindness and my fortress, My stronghold and my deliverer; My shield and He in whom I take refuge; Who subdues my people under me.”
    God as Mr. Miagi

    Matthew 9:34
    “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”
    Bit of a conflict with the usually-presented and refined message of “love thy neighbour”

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    Nov 27th 2013, 12:06 PM

    Matthew 9:34 is a HYPERBOLIE . I am sure you know what that is .
    Where is the context ? Verses without context are meaningless . God punished the Amalek for a reason ! ! Read it up .

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    Nov 27th 2013, 12:25 PM

    Quite like the bible and how Jehovah Witnesses interpret it differently? Or how some use it to justify discrimination towards gay people? As a Western society, we are not so far ahead of the Muslim world; the Magdalene laundries and our ability to really deal with that past are proof of that!

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    Nov 27th 2013, 1:34 PM

    Sebastian – you’ve addressed two of the above mentions. And I used the term “addressed” lightly.

    “Verses without context are meaningless”?? Have you read your own contributions??

    “God punished the Amalek for a reason” – it seems that is the same excuse given for a lot of the unpalatable actions in the Bible and other religious texts.

    Maybe he should have prevented the punishment of the Amaleks by preventing that reason occurring in the first place? Or is it a case of loving all who are made in his image – but loving some more than others?

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    Nov 27th 2013, 2:48 PM

    thanks brother – spot on .

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    Nov 27th 2013, 3:04 PM

    Tom Rooney, have a look at this site

    http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

    There is NO historical evidence that Jesus existed. Your claims are just made up.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 5:40 PM

    Tom, have you ever noticed that academic gowns resemble those worn by Muslim scholars? That’s because the early European universities were modelled on the pre-existing ones in the Islamic world. Alumnus is derived from the Arabic word for knowledge. Not a problem back then. The notion that the crusades were defensive is a novel one, I’d be interested to know where you found it. Doesn’t explain the crusades in the Baltic or Southern France though.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 5:46 PM

    Having been married to a muslim and lived under the heavy hand of that culture for over 8 yrs, I can assure you that there is a Sharia law and that it is indeed brutal. People posting that have not experienced what this cult of hate and death is like up close and personal better get a grip because you can cry bigot to all those who are warning you as loud as you like right up until the moment they lop your head off, because you are an “infidel” as well. You have NO idea what is coming if you don’t do something to curtail it now. I am not saying that this violence that is proposed is the way but eyes better get open because there is NOTHING peaceful about this ideology (I won’t even credit it as being a religion, it is an entire political ideology complete with its own judicial system). There are 109 verses alone in the quaran commanding them to kill the unbelievers (that’s you and me folks). You are under jihad and don’t even know it, they have perfected it, just look at your neighbors in Europe and what they are experiencing now and learn from it. It has now arrived in the US and Canada as well. No, definitely take a stand and nip it in the bud before it is too late for Ireland as well. DEMAND that your elected leaders do something now about it or elect ones that will. Call me a bigot if you will, but after having my own life threatened several times by the “peaceful” muslims for nothing more than the fact that I was not a muslim, I could care less what you think of what I have to say about them. I’ve witnessed and experienced their hate and violence personally, I will resist them until my last breath.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 6:01 PM

    Sebastian – another quote from the Qur’an. Surah 109.

    “Say, O disbelievers,

    I do not worship what you worship.

    Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.

    Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.

    Nor will you be worshipper of what I worship.

    For you is your religion, and for me is my religion”

    Go in peace brother.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 6:11 PM

    Hi Erin, I’m sorry you’ve had such a hard time. But your reaction is like someone saying “I had a bad marriage so no one should get married”. Lots of people have bad marriages. I’m not sure that the religion of the participants is relevant.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 6:33 PM

    Fatima, I’m not talking about my marriage, I’m talking about all that I saw and experienced living in that culture. I never saw such hatred spewed from people towards others like I witnessed from them. Even those that called themselves muslim but didn’t really practice it, when put in the right situation were just as bad. I saw it over and over and over. You will never convince me that there is anything good in this ideology.

    Your quote from the quran is amusing, what about the 109 other verses that tell them to kill all of us “infidels”. If you need help finding them, just let me know, I will point you to them, I’ve read that book too. My favorite verse was the one that said -. if your wife disobeys you beat her and send her to her couch. A mild one compared to the many verses that tell them to behead the unbelievers and cut of various body parts. Pfffft!! Let’s get it straight, I don’t hate muslims, I hate what their vile little book teaches. Hate is taught and that ideology takes the prize for it.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 6:50 PM

    And when the Prophet was asked about how much to beat her, he took out his toothbrush and tapped the man beside him with it. A husband has no authority to do more than that. We’ll have to agree to differ on Islam. Again, sorry you had a hard time. Sounds like you were with an ignorant crowd.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 6:54 PM

    Tony, you come across as a moron to me. Besides being spiritually blind you come across as someone who has no ability to use logic or reason.

    Why should God have stopped someone from expressing their free will?
    We all have free will in this world and with that comes individual responsibility, would you really want God to control every single aspect of your day to day life? That would be slavery.

    You have quoted verses from the old testament and made judgment on them based on your modern day world view, you need to look at the verses in the context of the time in which they were made. I’ve already told you that the old testament is not applicable as a rule of law in modern society and that it was meant for a theocratic society thousands of years ago.

    Try reading and educating yourself instead of copy and pasting nonsense from atheist websites.

    As for the rest of the new testament verses they can be easily explained and I shall address them in due course. You really shouldn’t comment on things you’re clearly clueless about.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 7:01 PM

    Fatima that is a lie, you are lying on purpose. The proper translation of that verse says he took out a small stick. Not a toothbrush, there was no word for toothbrush used in that verse at all.

    I have read the Qu-ran many times as well as the hadith so don’t try to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes here.

    The Qu-ran also says that a woman’s testimony is only worth half of a mans testimony.
    Mohammed also said hell would be populated by two thirds women because the nature of women was so bad. Mohammed also said women were less intelligent than men.

    I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious, sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked: “O Allah’s Apostle, what is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said: “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said: “This is the deficiency of your intelligence”… “Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said: “This is the deficiency in your religion.”

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    Nov 27th 2013, 7:02 PM

    If you allow that OT verses were revealed for a specific time and place, then why not allow that verses of the Qur’an on war refer to the specific occasions when Muslims were under attack?

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    Nov 27th 2013, 7:08 PM

    Oh the irony, accusing someone of no ability to use logic or reason while they defend a belief based on a book that was written anonymously, 400 years after the main protagonist is supposed to have lived, and was based heavily upon myths that had preceded it – a belief with no evidence is what’s illogical..
    As are the appeals to tradition, common beliefs etc.. Fallacy in fact.

    And then you accuse others of diminished intelligence.. Ad hominem to top it all off, you are a scream boy..

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    Nov 27th 2013, 7:15 PM

    Tom – it really is quite sad that you constantly insult other people when, in truth, you have absolutely no concept of the intellect of those you are talking to. The fact that you insist on doing this only comes across as someone resorting to petty judgments because you feel your view is threatened.

    You’re suggesting that God decided to allow slaughter of his favoured people to continue. A slaughter does not have to be complete for God to recognise that free will has been recognised.

    Precedent has been set here. God told Abraham, after a lot of emotional torture, to not actually kill his only son after all – because he could see that Abraham was willing to go through with it.

    Funny thing there – if God is all knowing, sees our intentions etc, then he has no excuse as a supposedly all powerful (and all loving) God to allow the slaughter and death of millions that he was capable of preventing over the years.

    In the context of an “all knowing” God, it’s interesting that he didn’t seem to know how people would struggle with his “word” as written in the Bible. In looking at the Bible as a kind of pedagogy of morality then both pedagogy and morality are sadly lacking.

    I hope that you can actually make the effort to not continue insulting myself and others on their intellect and instead engage on a less condescending level. If you can’t, then I’m really, really stuck on what “Love thy enemy”, “turn the other cheek” and “love thy neighbour” actually are supposed to mean.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 7:18 PM

    the Old Testament and the New Testament fits in like HAND and Glove …Jesus fulfilled over 350 prophesies from the Old Testament . On the other hand ,the Quran and New Testament are like CHALK and Cheese !

    The entirety of the Old Testament predicts, foreshadows, or reveals Jesus in some way. It is said, “The New [Testament] is in the Old, concealed; the Old is in the New, revealed.”

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    Nov 27th 2013, 7:22 PM

    Fatima, you’ve been very poorly educated on this subject. Besides the fact that Greeks and Romans had higher education systems before even Christianity existed, The University system we know of today came from Christianity and there’s not a credible historian or academic who would deny that.

    Christianity pre existed for over 1000 years before Mohammed was even born. Also, the word Alumni comes from the Latin noun alumnus meaning “foster son, pupil” and is derived from the verb alere “to nourish” it has nothing to do with Arabic.

    You seem to be tragically ignorant of Islamic history, do you not realise that all of the middle east and north Africa, including Egypt, Algeria etc. was populated by Christians until the Islamic hoards murdered their way through it forcing people to pay high taxes or else convert to Islam or be kileld if they refused both.

    Any person who has taken even a cursory look at the history of the crusades will know it was a defensive campaign to prevent the Islamic hoards from murdering their way through Europe.
    Islam has been spread through war and oppression, even today the pre disposition to start war in the name of Islam can be seen all over the world.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 7:28 PM

    Because Fatima, Jesus came with a New Testament which was the fulfillment of the old testament, both come from the Judeo-Christian traditions but the revelation of Jesus takes precedence over the old testament.

    The Qu-ran claims to be the final revelation to man and claims to be perfect and for all mankind until God returns, that is why it can not be claimed that some verses of the Qu-ran are not for modern society, because the Qu-ran claims it is relevant for all time. You should know this.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 7:36 PM

    Shanti, I always get a laugh when reading the nonsense spouted by Atheists and humanists such as yourself and Tony, you’re so content in your own ignorance and take everything you read on Atheist websites as fact without ever doing your own research.

    As for your claim that the bible was written anonymously 400 years after Jesus’s time.

    The Bible describes places, people, and events in various degrees of detail. It is essentially an historical account of the people of God throughout thousands of years. If you open to almost any page in the Bible you will find a name of a place and/or a person. Much of this can be verified from archaeology. Though archaeology cannot prove that the Bible is the inspired word of God, it has the ability to prove whether or not some events and locations described therein are true or false. So far, however, there isn’t a single archaeological discovery that disproves the Bible in any way.

    There is, of course, a host of archaeological digs that corroborate biblical records on places such as Bethsaida, Bethany, Caesarea Philippi, Capernaum, Cyprus, Galatia, Philippi, Thessalonica, Berea, Athens, Corinth, Ephesus, Rome, etc.

    The New Testament was written between 50-100 years after the death of Jesus, it has been proven to be 99.5% textually pure with over 5600 original copies. There are very few, if any ancient manuscripts with that level of accuracy or historical documentation to support it.

    If we were to go by your logic we can assume Plato, Homer and Aristotle never existed either.

    :-)

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    Nov 27th 2013, 7:45 PM

    Is that the verse Muslims missed when they burn churches and kill Christians in Pakistan , Somalia , Egypt and Syria ?

    Sahih al- Bukhari 6924 I have been ordered to fight the people till they say
    La ilaha illallah

    Quran 8:65

    Sahih International
    O Prophet, urge the believers to battle. If there are among you twenty [who are] steadfast, they will overcome two hundred. And if there are among you one hundred [who are] steadfast, they will overcome a thousand of those who have disbelieved because they are a people who do not understand.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 7:54 PM

    Tom, if I wasn’t atheist before I would be after thinking through the points you make and how you make them.

    I really don’t get how it is you can square the kind of accusations, presumptions, judgments and insults you have thrown out with your supposed christian morality. Or any morality.

    I have only love – and despite your faults, I don’t think either myself nor Shanti Om have stooped to the intolerant, degrading, presumptuous and insulting levels you have.

    I’ll make my final attempt at getting this back to actual discussion by asking you how it is we can confirm your claim that:
    “The New Testament was written between 50-100 years after the death of Jesus, it has been proven to be 99.5% textually pure with over 5600 original copies. There are very few, if any ancient manuscripts with that level of accuracy or historical documentation to support it.”

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    Nov 27th 2013, 7:57 PM

    Oh and Sebastian Anthony Borges…. you have heard the one about “let he who is without sin cast the first stone”?

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    Nov 27th 2013, 8:29 PM

    Tom.
    What is it with all the assumptions – are you and Seb the same person or something?
    How do you know I’ve been reading atheist websites? How do you know what faith or non faith I am? I have not said anything about my beliefs other than that they are personal – I keep them to myself for that very reason – freedom from religion is as important as freedom OF religion. I respect that, can you?

    I got my information from discussing the bible with Christian fundamentalists for your information.. But by all means, join Sebastian in your chorus of assumptions, abandoning all reason and logic and making a massive hypocrite of yourself.. Funny, Jesus wasn’t too fond of hypocrites, was he? In fact I seem to remember a load of stuff from the gospel of Matthew about how there was a special place in hell for them.. Doesn’t bother me, I don’t believe in your concept of hell, but it SHOULD bother you.

    Sebastian, if Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies of the Old Testament, then how come the Jews didn’t accept him as their saviour? After all, if he was the one they were waiting for – surely they would all be Christians now.. Unless of course, he didn’t fulfil those prophecies..

    Ps – I specifically avoided quoting any Old Testament when discussing your religions violent tendencies but if they “fit together like glove and hand” – Deuteronomy and Leviticus are pretty clear on what should happen to those who were non believers.. “Leave nothing alive that breatheth” yeah – pretty clear..

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    Nov 27th 2013, 8:34 PM

    FORGIVE ME – IS YOUR REPLY TO ME ? Really ? The New Testament was written 400 years after Jesus ? Where is your evidence ? Now let me give you some internal evidence –
    Eye witness – to new Testament .
    • 2 Peter 1:16
    New International Version (NIV)
    16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power,but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
    Acts 10:39

    New International Version
    “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross,

    New International Version
    “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross,

    Acts 2:32
    New International Version (NIV)
    32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.
    St.mark (ad 65)was a disciple of Peter – who wrote down all that he remembered of the Lords’ doing and sayings.Not a native to Galelii

    • Mark: c. 68–73,[14] c 65-70[2]
    • Matthew: c. 70–100.[14] c 80-85.[2] Some conservative scholars argue for a pre-70 date, particularly those that do not accept Mark as the first gospel written.
    • Luke: c. 80–100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85,[14], c 80-85[2]
    • John: c 90-100,[2] c. 90–110,[15] The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.

    Origen said the first Gospel was written by Matthew.[ Professor of Theology, James Edwards in his latest work, claims that the Apostle Matthew wrote the Gospel of the Hebrews, an eye witness account in the Hebrew of the life of Jesus long before any of the Canonical Gospels.
    PATRISTIC WRITINGS…
    1. EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS (dated 120 A.D.)
    a. A personal acquaintance of John, the apostle
    b. He quotes from the Synoptic Gospels, Acts, Romans, 1 & 2
    Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, 2 Thessa-
    lonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Hebrews, 1 Peter, and 1 John
    2. LETTERS OF IGNATIUS (dated 115 A.D.)
    a. Written to several churches in Asia Minor
    b. He quotes from Matthew, John, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians,
    Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus
    3. EPISTLE OF CLEMENT TO THE CORINTHIANS (dated 95 A.D.)
    a. This letter was written to encourage the church to respect
    their elders
    b. He quotes from the Synoptic Gospels, Acts, Romans, 1 Corin-
    thians, Ephesians, Titus, Hebrews, and 1 Peter

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    Nov 27th 2013, 8:43 PM

    Sebastian – when attempting to reference materials to support your argument you should really try to avoid using circular references.

    You’re referencing the bible – the very book that is claimed to be the “word of god” and you do so in an attempt to prove the existence of god/jesus?

    Aren’t you a doctor?! Is this the kind of academic practice you advocate?

    And when I said “cast the first stone” I was referring to something entirely differently.

    31-Aug-2001.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 8:47 PM

    If we believe Jesus is God – who created water – He can turn water into WINE .

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    Nov 27th 2013, 8:48 PM

    Islam is perfect ? Really ? In what way ? Please explain .

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    Nov 27th 2013, 8:49 PM

    By the way Tom..
    No one worships Plato or any of your other examples as a religion.. It matters not who said anything that they said – they do not claim to be gods’ messengers. They merely said things that made sense.
    Like many quotes attributed to the wrong source throughout history, the person who said them is not as relevant as the content of their words.

    The bible is filled with contradictions, it is the antithesis of logic to consider it fact. The only reason employed, is in the form of excuses in order to abandon logic.

    Archaeological finds to disprove the bible, hmm let’s see, many, many earlier civilisations found, completely separate – with varying beliefs, some of which bear similarities to the story of Jesus – but as every one of them is based upon the movements of the heavenly bodies, a form of ancient calendar – astrotheology if you will, this simply gives more credence to the idea that it was another tool employed by those in power to keep the knowledge of the passage of the year to themselves in order maintain their power over the many.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 8:50 PM

    ~No, you could just believe that Jesus was a nice guy who was good at magic. It doesn’t require creationist ideals.

    Which makes me worry about your patients more than I already did.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 8:52 PM

    Sebastian.
    “Description of Begging the Question

    Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true. This sort of “reasoning” typically has the following form.

    Premises in which the truth of the conclusion is claimed or the truth of the conclusion is assumed (either directly or indirectly).
    Claim C (the conclusion) is true.

    Example:
    Bill: “God must exist.”
    Jill: “How do you know.”
    Bill: “Because the Bible says so.”
    Jill: “Why should I believe the Bible?”
    Bill: “Because the Bible was written by God.”

    http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html

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    Nov 27th 2013, 8:55 PM

    I do not know if Sebastian is a doctor, but surely being a doctor is redundant to a Christian?

    Jam 5:14
    Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

    Jam 5:15
    And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.”

    What’s the point in doctors if “prayer of faith” shall save the sick?

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    Nov 27th 2013, 8:57 PM

    Tom – Personal abuse is seldom helpful. I did not lie. This is a problem of translation. The Arabic word is “siswak”. It it generally translated as “tooth stick”, since it is a twig used to clean teeth. I thought toothbrush would make more sense to the general reader. I have one in my bathroom cabinet and if I were more techie I could post a picture. It is not what any reasonable person would recognise as a stick for beating anyone. As for the rest, there have been generations of PhDs done on the rights and responsibilities of men and women in Islam. I do not propose to engage with you on this topic. You do not seem to have an open mind.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 8:57 PM

    “Maybe he should have prevented the punishment of the Amaleks ” God waited for 600 years before He punished them .

    Heard of FREE WILL ? Now, what if we were all made as ROBOTS ? What if God programmed us all to be good ? Like He did in the garden of Paradise – till Adam and Eve broke His law ? Think about it .

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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:04 PM

    You missed the point by not reading my point made earlier in full sebastian.

    The point is; if god knew what it was that was going to happen due to his all-knowing status, why didn’t he just say “If these guys intentions are to kill and I know without intervention that there will be a slaughter – then what ideal does it serve to let the slaughter occur?”

    But he did let it occur.

    And then, despite being all-knowing and all-powerful somehow took 600 years to get around to what amounts to vengeance.

    And what does waiting 600 years do? Allow generation after generation to pass by and then “punish” the Amleks for what their ancestors did.

    Now, can you explain the logic of this?

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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:08 PM

    you can do better than that …. my being a doctor has no bearing on my discussion here .It’s such a pity you argue from ignorance having never read the Bible.

    “Thou shall not test the Lord thy God !

    Luke 4:12
    Parallel Verses
    New International Version
    Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:11 PM

    I aim to please – so as per your request :-

    Evidence from the JEWISH SOURCES:

    Talmud, b. Sanhedrin 43a: On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged [or crucified]. … Since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover.

    The Amoa “Ulla” (Ulla was a disciple of Youchanan and lived in Palestine at the end of the third century) adds: “And do you suppose that for (Yeshu of Nazareth – Jesus) there was any right of appeal? He was a beguiler, and the Merciful One hath said: “Thou shalt not spare neither shalt thou conceal him.” It is otherwise with Yeshu, for He was near to the civil authority.

    Note here that the writers of the Talmud took their job seriously. These men were Jews who did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. They were not Christians but they documented Christ’s crucifixion.

    EVIDENCE FROM ROMAN SOURCES:

    Cornelius Tacitus in his Annals, xv. 44: Christus … was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontious Pilate.

    Lucian of Samosata: (Christ was) the man who was crucified in Palestine

    Note here that these men were professional historians. They researched their work before publishing it. They also documented Christ’s crucifixion.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:14 PM

    Logic of God ? i would love to explain – but I”am only a human like yourself .

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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:21 PM

    Tony Canning – you are wrong . Jesus was not a magician . No magician fulfilled 350 prophesies , predicted His own death and came back to life again . I will pray for you that your eyes are opened .

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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:23 PM

    None of which proves anything about any divine link with any divinity.

    But your last comment is very telling….. It’s the usual shoulder shrug that essentially says “he works in mysterious ways” which itself suggests that your ultimate “proof” lies in faith.

    So really – you’ve waved goodbye to logic.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:25 PM

    Oh, and just to settle your presumption – I have read the bible. Not just the bible, but a lot of other materials while I read the bible a second time.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:26 PM

    Unfortunately your claim of fulfilling prophecies is simply untrue.

    As you and Tom have fairly often said:
    Read moar.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:29 PM

    “Unfortunately your claim of fulfilling prophecies is simply untrue.- ”

    I have no time or space to go into details – but I know PROOF is not what you need .Goodbye.

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:35 PM

    I stand corrected on the root of the word “alumnus”. There is some academic debate on whether or not medieval universities were influenced by Andalusian madrasahs so I’ll concede that as well. Now I’m tired and I want to go to bed.

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:47 PM

    CS Lewis Daily
    “If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.”

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:51 PM

    Know your Quran

    over 60% of the Koran is devoted to punishing or reviling the kafir!
    Here is a partial list of verses from the Koran which threaten or promise violence to kafirs — 2:191-193 2:244 2:216 3:56 3:151 3:167 4:74 4:76 4:89 4:95 4:1045:33 5:51-52 8:12 8:15 8:39 8:57 8:59-60 8:65 9:59:14) 9:20 9:29 9:30 9:38-39 9:41-42 9:73 9:88 9:111 9:123 17:16 18:65-81 21:44 25:5233:60-62 47:3-4 47:35 48:1748:29 61:4 61:9 61:10-12 66:9 .

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:02 PM

    “”"”"”I have no time or space to go into details – but I know PROOF is not what you need .Goodbye.
    “”"”"”

    Um – PROOF is exactly what we’re talking about. FAITH is not proof – verifiable, observable evidence from multiple sources goes a long way to proof.

    And it’s not about time or space to go into details – the bottom line for any religious belief is faith. You have it – I think having faith is suspense of disbelief. You cannot make someone believe or not believe.

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:11 PM

    my dear man – without FAITH the world would not function, You have faith in your wife but cannot prove it , You have Faith the sun will rise tomorrow -but cannot prove it. Science cannot give us the answers a child would ask – why are we here and where are we going ? There is more to life than look for scientific proves .

    Without God – our existence has no meaning .Cheers .

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:22 PM

    there are 40 historic documents for Jesus and only 10 for Emperor Tiberius ! YET you say Jesus never existed ! ! God help you .
    • Non-Christian texts:
    o Tacitus (Annals 15:44)
    o Josephus (Antiquities 18:3)
    o Lucian of Samosata (The Death of Peregrine 11-13)
    o Mar Bar-Serapion (letter, British Museum, Syriac manuscript)
    o Thallus (from a Julius Africanus fragment)
    o the so-called lost Acts of Pilate (Justin Martyr, First Apology 35)

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:24 PM

    Actually, I have no faith the sun will not rise tomorrow. The world will rotate to face it.

    Science, bitch….

    The fact that you don’t understand something is not a reason to shoe-horn a god in there. In terms of logic, that really abandons it.

    Your faith only goes so far Sebastian. You didn’t become a priest, you became a doctor – why follow a scientific route rather than one of faith? Seems like you don’t have faith yourself – if not, why don’t you pray over people instead of utilising medical science?

    As for “without god our existence has no meaning”. Well, who told you that? I have no god – my life has plenty of meaning.

    And for you – well you believe in ONE god. What about the others? What if you’re believing in the wrong god?

    All logic is gone because you are so willing to not question.

    As Bill Hicks said; it’s a case of “believe or die”.

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:33 PM

    Many Roman Catholic clerics throughout history have made significant contributions to science. These cleric-scientists include such illustrious names as Nicolaus Copernicus, Gregor Mendel, Georges Lemaître, Albertus Magnus, Roger Bacon, Pierre Gassendi, Roger Joseph Boscovich, Marin Mersenne, Bernard Bolzano, Francesco Maria Grimaldi, Nicole Oresme, Jean Buridan, Robert Grosseteste, Christopher Clavius, Nicolas Steno, Athanasius Kircher, Giovanni Battista Riccioli, William of Ockham, and others listed below. The Catholic Church has also produced many lay scientists and mathematicians.

    Christian Universities Bologna, Rome, Paris, Naples, Salamanca, Seville, Prague, Vienna,
    Colagne – ALL AFFILIATED TO THE CHURCH . USA – Harvard , YALE ,Princeton Brown ..ALL Christian OXFORD university .UK ..Bishop Robert Grosseteste ..Catholic Chancellor .Kepler , Copernicus
    Galileo
    Me being a doctor has not changed my mind about God .Dr .Francis Collins ( Head of Human Genome ) is DOCTOR TOO !

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:46 PM

    No one said that being catholic is incompatible with being a doctor, or a scientist. There have been some pretty impressive scholars from many different creeds and of none. This point is really quite irrelevant.

    I asked what the point of becoming a doctor was if faithful prayer heals the sick?
    You take the rest of your bible so literally, I was genuinely asking why there is need for a doctor if the bible says prayer makes them redundant.

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    Mute Tom Rooney
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    Nov 28th 2013, 1:23 AM

    Fatima, it is not personal abuse to point out facts. You lied about the translation, I know lying to non Muslims is allowed in your faith but don’t be surprised when your caught out and called out on it.

    You made reference to “siswak” in fact the proper word is “Miswak”
    Here’s an Islamic scholar teaching about beating women. http://youtu.be/iWGA8i6scYY

    Also here is the verse showing how Mohammed had sex with a 9 year old girl he married.

    Yunus b. Bukayr stated, from Hisham b. ‘Urwa, from his father who said, “The Messenger of God (SAAS) married ‘A’isha three years after (the death of) Khadija. At that time (of the contract) ‘A’isha had been a girl of six. When he married her she was nine. The Messenger of God (SAAS) died when ‘A’isha was a girl of eighteen. Ibn Kathir, The Life of the Prophet Muhammad (Al-Sira al-Nabawiyya), Volume II, page. 93-94

    [My mother] made me sit on his lap and said, “These are your relatives. May God bless you with them and bless them with you!” Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me. Only Sa‘d b. ‘Ubaidah sent a bowl of food which he used to send to the Messenger of God. Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, page. 130-131

    ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. SAHIH MUSLIM (Book #008, Hadith #3310)

    Fatima, there are really only two possibilities here, either you are intentionally trying to decieve people through lying about translations and verses, you’ve already been caught untruths in regard to Islam and the claims you made on its behalf.

    Or else you don’t really know what the Qu-ran or Hadith teach, which wouldn’t be surprising, most Muslims don’t really know what these books contain or teach, hence the reason we have these false claims about Islam being a religion of peace etc.

    My mind is always open to correction if claims are supported by facts, you on the other hand are just like most other Muslims, you prefer to bury your head in the sand and ignore what Islam teaches instead of dealing with reality.

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 28th 2013, 8:46 AM

    maybe you can explain Isaiah 53 and 9:6

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 28th 2013, 10:21 AM

    Point of fact, Mohammed was born c 570 CE.

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 28th 2013, 10:28 AM

    Hi Sebastian, thanks for counting the verses of the Qur’an that mention war. Now can you count the ones that encourage forgiveness and mercy? If only for the sake if variety.

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:59 AM

    Tom – to accuse someone of telling a deliberate untruth is certainly abusive. To do so in writing is potentially libellous, even on the internet. You should be more careful.

    Please do not presume to tell me what I do and don’t know, or indeed what “most Muslims” do and don’t know. I don’t believe you’re qualified.

    “Miswak” is just another word for the same thing. A tooth stick. For cleaning teeth. About as long as your hand and as thick as your little finger.

    The video you posted is just one man delivering his personal opinion without backing it up. You’ll have to do better than that.

    Now, A’isha. Yes, there is one narration that gives her age at marriage as nine. It is derived from a man who gave the narration when he was 90. Nothing else he said at this time is considered reliable since it was known that his memory failed in old age.
    Circumstantial evidence can be used to infer that her age at marriage was either 14, 18 or 21.

    The truth is that I don’t know how old she was and neither do you. In a sense, it doesn’t matter. If you want to use episodes from the life of the Prophet to portray him badly, that’s your prerogative. By the same token, you should acknowledge the episodes that portray him well. Otherwise, you would just be cherry picking – only using such evidence as agrees with your preconceived ideas. And you wouldn’t do that, would you?

    Well, this has been interesting, but I’ve got to go back to real life now. Bye bye, be good, play nice.

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 28th 2013, 12:10 PM

    “You take the rest of your bible so literally, I was genuinely asking why there is need for a doctor if the bible says prayer makes them redundant.”
    WHERE DOES IT SAY IN THE BIBLE – PRAYS MAKE DOCTORS REDUNDANT ?
    WHAT A BIZARRE QUESTION !

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 28th 2013, 12:21 PM

    BY PRINCIPLE OF abrogation the peaceful verses in the Quran are null and void .

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 28th 2013, 12:41 PM

    Good gracious Sebastian, you’re issuing fatwas! Please, are you a mufti or an ayatollah? I think we should be told.

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 28th 2013, 5:58 PM

    It really amazes me how tolerant these 2 fine christians are.

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    Mute Tom Rooney
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:18 PM

    Fatima, I never made any accusations, I pointed out facts, your posts are here for all the read and you are a proven liar.

    You’ve lied again in this post, there is not even 1 credible Islamic Scholar who doesn’t accept that Aisha was married at 6 and had her married consummated when she was 9. It is documented very well in Islam and well you know it.

    You’ve been outed as a liar who doesn’t know her own faith.

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 29th 2013, 11:13 AM

    Because of our tolerance we have allowed the demise of our Christian religion in Syria, Egypt, Lebanon etc etc .So be amazed no more !

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 29th 2013, 11:21 AM

    All early Christians were Jews ! ! The Gospel writers) except ( Luke ) were Jews ,

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    Mute Yuet Ngor Rappard
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    Nov 29th 2013, 11:55 AM

    Fully agree with you Jackie. I am from New Zealand and in my home city Dunedin is full of those damned headscarved and veiled up Muslim women. I don’t like it! I don’t want them in New Zealand.
    Muslims and their evil murderous Islam do not belong in the West! It is a cult, and Angola in Africa is the first country to ban Islam.

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 29th 2013, 5:34 PM

    Sebastian. Christianity is finished in Europe and soon will be gone elsewhere, along with ALL other religions.

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    Mute Martin Byrne
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    Nov 30th 2013, 1:09 PM

    I never thought to see such idiotic arguments over religion, I thought the world had evolved beyond this medieval carry on. I though we the Irish people were a nation of independent thinkers. apparently not.

    The people this article was written about that threatened Irish Muslims and their little children with harm these fools are disgrace to any republic.

    Many people in this country in the 1930′s swallowed the anti Jewish German propaganda and similar threats were made against Irish Jews mainly in Dublin back then. 80 years later and again the same type of mindless easily lead people that swallowed the Nazi propaganda have popped up again this time with anti Islamic BS peddled by the George Bush administration to facilitate his genocide war on Iraq. The same anti Islamic BS has been sustained ever since by the western right wing media in order to keep generating massive profits for private corporations mainly in military industrial complex and Oil companies.

    Islam is no more a threat to take over Ireland than the British are likely to come back. Sure there are fundamentalists that shout such threats but the big question is why are they given such a voice on the media when they are so few of them. the answer is to create fear and distrust of all things Muslim in western populations in order to continue the fake war on Terror. Muslims are being used as patsies for an unending false war for private corporate gain.

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Dec 1st 2013, 10:48 AM

    Little present for Tom and Seb:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3mX0YRrjM

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    Mute Hassan Wajahat
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    Dec 4th 2013, 9:50 PM

    Actually, you need to read Qur’an with commentary and stop quoting it out of context. These verses were in realtion to an impending battle in Islamic history in which nascent Islamic state in Madina would have ceased in case of a defeat.

    So, instead of misleading people with your shallow knowledge, you shoud probably condemn any incitement to hate by anyone, be it a Muslim, Jew, Christian, Athiest or anyone else!

    May peace be with you.

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    Mute Antonio Perales
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    Dec 20th 2013, 7:11 AM

    what do you care what Sharia law is or isn’t about? is sharia law effecting you and your family? Nope. The British were the problem in Ireland, from my understanding, not Sharia law. So, again, why are you so wet over Sharia law?

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    Mute Niall Noonan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:26 PM

    Threatening children, classy move

    Also, what if they’re Muslim and are happy here, aren’t offended by our culture and don’t want to live under sharia law? Are they grand then?

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    Mute Geert Wilders
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:19 PM

    That’s how it started out in England now the place is overrun with extremists who want Sharia law.

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    Mute Niall Noonan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:23 PM

    Is it? I have a few English mates and they seem to be doing just fine over there, haven’t mentioned anything about these extremists running around the place

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    Mute Geert Wilders
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:57 PM
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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:18 PM

    Geert. Racist. Homophobic. Sexist. What are your thoughts on the youth/eldery?

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    Mute Patrick Declan O'Shea
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:18 PM

    Is it??

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    Mute Geert Wilders
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:41 PM

    Ailbhe you appear to be blind to the dangers of Islam may I suggest opening your eyes before it’s too late.

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    Mute Eimear Post Ginger
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:05 PM

    Did the reporter in the video you posted not say that it was a small minority doing this. There are large groups of Irish people inflicting their beliefs on womens bodies. Thats a far greater problem, coz they are succeeding.

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    Mute Hominibus Mortuis
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:11 PM

    And you appear to be full of lies and deceit.

    Now, considering your argument seems to point to one small section of a small population, we’ll take it as red that its rubbish. If you were to try to use that in a court of law or as the bases of a social science study you would be laugh at.

    Now, lets look at the facts. The pop of the UK is 65 million. Of that 2.5 million follow one of the Islamic sects. That is a grand total of 4.5%.

    Put it another way there are more people living in the Greater Manchester area than Muslims in the UK. Have the British got their eyes closed to the danger of the Mancunian threat?

    What about the Office of Statistics report of 2011 the showed that Muslim immigrates integrate into British life better than others, including my fellow Irish.

    And just for the finial nail. the University of Exeter produced a report showing the amount of anti-Muslims attacks far out ways the amount of attacks carried out by Muslims.

    http://www.exeter.ac.uk/news/featurednews/title_53723_en.html

    So everything you have been trying to say is a lie and what you real are is a racist that doesn’t like non-whites.

    And I have to admit, I have never heard of an attack by Muslims against Irish people, in fact, many Muslims that come to Ireland, either to live or even just visit state that the Irish live up to their reputation as being friendly and welcoming.

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    Mute Gis Bayertz
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:21 PM

    I really wonder if this is the real, Dutch Geert Wilders?

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    Mute Dagda
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:43 PM

    A 3 minute YouTube video has convinced you England is overrun with extremists?

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:55 PM

    Geert your last comment regarding religion was condemning an act that would disrespect a religious belief;
    ‘They can’t have a pastor openly endorsing sodomy against the democratic wishes of the church and its followers.’
    Yet you condemn an entire religion?
    Hypocritical much?

    You seem to think that we will be run out of this country by those that hold a different faith to yours. You are in fact just afraid of change and afraid of any threat to you beloved church.

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    Mute James P. Sullivan
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:00 AM

    @Gis Bayertz,

    His avatar links to #GeertWildersIRL and it’s locked. Sounds like it’s not him and whoever it is has something to hide. Probably the same troll who posts as Ehud Barack.

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    Mute Peter Reid
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    Nov 26th 2013, 2:26 AM

    “overrun with extremists” — What percentage of the people of ‘England’ (by which I suppose you mean the UK) do you think are extremists, Geert? (Per Capita)

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    Mute Paul Reed
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:30 PM
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    Mute Paul Reed
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:36 PM

    IS he a racist and homophobic because he just doesn’t share your stupid vision? Respect other people opinion ok? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcsG-u2GtZE

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Nov 26th 2013, 3:21 PM

    Respect others opinion….doesn’t share your stupid vision…..sounds like you need to take your own advice.

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    Mute Donal O Neil
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:53 PM

    The Kuwait government turned down our request in Kuwait to build a new church for the more than 1 million Christians here . Saudi won’t allow any churches to be built and actively discourage prayer meeting s for Christians through police patrols . Many phillipinos in jail who were picked up and arrested while attending ” illegal masses” in people’s houses . We once had three beardies , religious zealots , hammering on the door in Aramco ras tanira one Christmas Eve recently trying to stop a mass in progress . So the Moslem faith must come to understand that the Christian faithful have every right to practice there religion and grow there religion n Moslem country’s as much as they can freely practice in our christian countries . But that’s seems to be swept under the sands of Arabia . God be with you all

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:46 PM

    I wouldn’t mind but much of the money that is used to build these mosques comes from Saudi Arabia.

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    Mute Alison Kerplunk-Hasselhoff
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:05 PM

    Surely if you think it’s wrong that a Christian church is not permitted to be built in Saudi Arabia, you must also consequently think that it is wrong to disallow a mosque to be built and/or attended by the Muslim community in Ireland? Interesting information, but undermined by the latency of double standards, I’m afraid.

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    Mute David Dancey
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:51 PM

    @Alison, I have no problem with mosques being built in Ireland (in fact I would support it) but I do have issues with the way that certain Muslim dominated countries deal with their religious minorities. The Assyrian Christian community is nearly wiped out in Iraq, Coptic Christians are facing increasing violence in Egypt, Christian and Ahmadiyya communities are facing arrest, death sentences and unprosecuted extra-judicial murders in Pakistan to name but a few examples.

    I utterly condemn the letter mentioned in the article. It is absolutely not in my name! But the issues of human rights throughout the world (this is by no means a problem specific to Muslim counties) for freedom of belief (for atheists too of course) do not get as much publicity as they should.

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    Mute Ken Fogarty
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:55 PM

    Well said

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    Mute Kevin Keogh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:03 PM

    Donal you can’t compare Kuwait and Saudi Arabia with the rest of the muslim world. Both countries are controlled by extremely wealthy dynasties who rule there citizens of any religion with an iron fist and sharp sword in order to keep control of there vast wealth. If the citizens resist this control they will pay dearly, this is also true of Oman and Yemen. The majority of this Muslim hating stems from the US, Britain and France, why, because of there colonial master syndrome and there greed to rob other nations mineral & oil deposits, hence why there invading armies are so often in the Muslim world. Take a leaf from our own history when we were portray’d by our colonial masters as subhuman in there media and house of Parliament to convince there citizens in order to rob, rape and pillage our nation. As for the Low life Goons who made those threats to Muslims in Ireland, they are lucky Michael Collins is not around for they would feel his wrath and rightly so.

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    Mute Tom Sullivan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:55 PM

    @Donal Saudi is a special case. It is the hotbed of the intolerant, extremist wahabist sect of Islam. It is also a friend of Israel, a country that claims its very existence is under threat by Islamic extremists. It is not, however, representative of the entire gamut of Islamic belief. To think otherwise is to display an astounding level of ignorance.

    @William Proof that the money to build these mosques comes from Saudi? Is that too much to ask?

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 26th 2013, 9:22 AM

    The Saudis and other theocratic Arab countries fund mosques all over the world. The paid €100 million to build a mosque in Kabul. They are funding a mosque in Tromsø, Norway. In the US, “Today, it has been estimated that 80 percent of American mosques are under Wahhabi influence, described by both scholars and U.S. officials as a radical, violent philosophical platform used by terrorists and their supporters to justify violence against Christians, Jews and other “non-believers.”" and “Most of the Wahhabi mosques work closely with Saudi state funded organizations such as the Muslim World League (MWL) and the World Association for Muslim Youth (WAMY), institutions identified as participants in the funding of al Qaeda. The Council for American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), a main Wahhabi ideological institution in America with a well-documented network of support for radical Islam, has received at least $750,000 from the Saudi government and its officials, including a donation by the Islamic Development Bank, a Saudi government-controlled financial institution, to purchase their headquarters in Washington D.C.” Saudi Arabia has signed an agreement for $1.7m in free aid for the development of mosques in the Maldives, according to a statement from the Ministry of Islamic Affairs. A Saudi offer to build a large mosque in Moscow has prompted Russian Orthodox organisations to ask for permission to build an Orthodox church in Saudi Arabia. In the Catalan municipality of Salt, a town near Barcelona where Muslim immigrants now make up 40% of the population, work has begun on the construction of a two-story Salafi mega-mosque — built by two Spain-based Salafist groups, Al Hilal Islamic Cultural Association and Magrebins per la Pau Association, with funding from Saudi Arabia — with a capacity for 750 worshippers. There’s plenty of more examples.

    You hardly think the Irish Mulsims, who are supposed to be stateless immigrants, would have the money to fund such an enormous project?

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    Mute Alison Kerplunk-Hasselhoff
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:31 PM

    To be honest, I really don’t see how any of this information is relevant to the letters that was sent to the Muslim communities in Ireland. Yes, we are all well-aware of the human rights violations that subsist alongside Islam, just as we are aware of other human rights violations that are a direct result of other fundamentalist beliefs, whether it be a communist dictatorship in North Korea, or the Christian Church disallowing homosexual couples to marry, or in areas of sub-Saharan Africa where tribes are at war with each other, etc. etc. The fact is that these kinds of fundamentalist behaviour is not reflective of the majority of the communities who are seemingly propagating and enforcing such beliefs. There are many placid Christians, there are many North Koreans who do not agree with the way their country is run, and so on. Why give this kind of irrelevant information if it is not to incite some kind of unnecessary debate on how a number of corrupt governments use Islam to maintain control of their citizens? Isn’t this the case with many religions and other cultural phenomena throughout history? And why use this argument except to justify the belief that Islam is somehow inherently wrong?

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    Nov 26th 2013, 2:44 PM

    Alison, Islam is of course “inherently wrong”. Virtually no statement in the Koran is accurate or truthful. We evolved, a god didn’t create us. There is no god and all Muslim laws, rules and behaviour stem from that belief. It’s total nonsense, like every other single religion (which all disagree with one another of course).

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    Mute Alison Kerplunk-Hasselhoff
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    Nov 26th 2013, 3:20 PM

    @William, by wrong, I meant immoral. This whole situation has nothing to do with whether or not we believe in God or scripture.

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    Nov 26th 2013, 3:23 PM

    And whether we agree or not with their beliefs, even if we are 100% that their beliefs are unfounded and illogical or whatever, that by no means gives us the right to (try to) suppress them or their freedoms for religious expression.

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 26th 2013, 3:25 PM

    Alison, is it not grossly immoral to brainwash defenceless children into believing in a non existent god, a brainwashed state that they may never shake off and that will ruin their lives? How many people died in the world last year because of the Islamic religion? To be born and live and die the one life we have believing in such medieval superstitious nonsense is abhorrent.

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    Nov 26th 2013, 3:27 PM

    Alison, like they suppress their own children, the next generation of the brainwashed, and take from them the freedom to form their own opinions?

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    Nov 26th 2013, 4:37 PM

    That’s ridiculous. You think every religious person is brainwashed because you can’t understand why they believe in something so absurd. I really don’t know who is the extremist in this case – you, the atheist, or them. How can you possibly suppress someone for having an opinion? Yes, religion breeds extremism, but so does atheism and a whole bunch of other crap. Or do you believe atheists are not capable of brainwashing people and suppressing them in an equally atrocious way? Ever hear of the Nazi’s? Or the Soviets? None of them were religious, but extreme in the absolute sense of the word. It’s YOUR opinion that a religious person cannot form their own opinion – well, that’s just nonsense. Our good aul friend Darwin himself was a very religious man, even after he discovered evolution. So was Galileo and Copernicus. Newton, John Locke, the list goes on. The way you speak of other people’s beliefs is so rude and bigoted, I’m not even sure why I’m bothering to reply. And before you ask, I myself am on the atheist boat. I just don’t go around shoving it in everyone else’s face in the same way that you blame religious people from doing.

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    Nov 26th 2013, 4:44 PM

    May I add that it is people who commit crimes against morality, not some personification of religion. Yes, they use the name of religion to justify their cause, but even if religion didn’t exist, do you honestly think this sort of fundamentalist attitude would not be founded upon something else?

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 26th 2013, 5:13 PM

    Alison, your post is so full of errors I can’t address them all. The reason the vast majority of people around the world are the religion they are is the brainwashing of children and of course the ongoing pressures from their society. Otherwise how come all the Hindus in India have Hindu parents, the Muslims in the Arab countries Muslim parents? It can’t be that they worked it all out logically or on the basis of evidence, or they would not all come up with different religions. If it’s not brainwashing, can you tell me what it is?

    Virtually all the Nazis were practicing Christians. Hitler was. The Nazi symbol is a Christian cross. The Soviets weren’t Atheists or Humanists, they were Communists. It’s interesting that this week the case of slavery in London is associated with a cult, a cult of Communism as opposed to a cult of religion.

    Darwin “lost” his religion after discovering Evolution. I’ve read several of his biographies. One poignant moment was when he published his great book and his wife said, “so we won’t see each other in heaven?”. He walked her to Church on Sunday but didn’t go in. Darwin died an Atheist after starting off as a potential vicar.

    Newton was not very religious and had to keep his opinions to himself or he would have been fired from his Chair. He may have been a loose Unitarian, a branch of Christianity that’s as close to a non-religious Christian as you can get. Galileo and Copernicus (who was afraid to publish his book until his deathbed for fear of being punished as an apostate) lived at a time before Science and before Evolution so therefore can be forgiven their beliefs.

    Galileo was probably an Atheist, I’ve read several biographies of him too. He certainly wasn’t religious in any real meaning of the word and had close friends who were probably Atheists.
    Where did I “shove?” I don’t have a class of obedient boys in front of me like the Christian Brothers to beat non religion into.

    If religion didn’t exist more people would think logically as there would be nothing else. Humanists around the world of every nationality and all former religions co-exist without a shred of hatred or violence. Science is universal. As someone said recently, if all the religions of the world and Science were somehow forgotten and lost overnight, the new religions would all be totally different than now but the Science would be exactly the same.

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    Mute Alison Kerplunk-Hasselhoff
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    Nov 26th 2013, 5:55 PM

    Since you’re so fond of reading, I recommend browsing through a bit of Foucault, who was a staunch atheist, but also put forth some very convincing arguments regarding how society’s, since the dawn of time, have (ab)used religious beliefs to propagate their own agenda.

    The Nazi regime was in no way Christian-based. Hitler was tremendously inspired by his (albeit incorrect) interpretation of Nietzsche’s idea of the slave morality and the Ubermensch. Nietzsche himself was a very strong advocate against the church, or any sort of religion per se. So I really don’t understand where your information is regarding Hitler being a Christian. Perhaps he was practising, but he certainly was not a believer and he absolutely did not push any religious agenda when he massacred millions of Jews. Also, the swaztika is based on a Hindu symbol, not a Christian one, and I’m pretty sure, whatever we disagree on, we can both concur that him and his fellow Nazi’s were not Hindus.

    The Soviets, especially with their influence over the atrocities that occurred in Yugoslavia, explicitly sought to eliminate the influence of religion. They were extremely secular. Yes, they were communist, but you can hardly mix up a political ideology with a religious belief system. As is the case in North Korea and China, the latter of which who, during the Cultural Revolution in which they disseminated their SECULAR values nationwide, severely persecuted many religious factions, such as in Tibet. If we look at the Rwandan genocide, most of the horrendous slaughtering that occurred there was based on ETHNIC difference, not religious. There are countless other examples of this.

    The fact is, we will always have extremists. Just look at how we evolved – by the elimination of all those we deem to be weaker than us, or who we see as a threat, for ANY reason. So there will always be wars waged and there will always be extremists who follow their own agenda. There will always be nationalism, borders, keeping the outsiders out, expecting others to completely assimilate to our worldview and in doing so, destroy their own, as is the typical, superior Western sentiment you’ve clearly illustrated. Even if religion was destroyed today, you cannot expect everyone in the world to suddenly fall in line and think in a more logical/rational way, as you predict. Neither of us can really prove this as we will probably never see the day that this happens, but I really, really doubt that it will occur in the way you’ve described.

    Also, as you’ve admitted, Darwin was a very religious man before he discovered evolution, so by that fact, so-called brainwashed religious persons ARE capable of independent thought. Furthermore, you are not accounting for all those who convert to religion based on their own experiences or whatever, surely those who have thought about making such a commitment weren’t captured and brainwashed by some cult?

    But most importantly, there will always be religion, and for the most part, it causes no harm to anyone except, in your view, the people who believe in it. So why is it such a problem that the Muslim community express their faith, which seems to be inherent in their own identity (much like atheism is in yours)? Are you so susceptible to brainwashing that you must shield your eyes from then in case they take control of your mind? Why do you find it so hard to accept that, for whatever reasons, some people are religious? And why is that such a problem for you? Why do you even care so much about what other people believe? Wait, clearly you don’t.

    Part of expecting a community to integrate into our society means also accepting them for who they are and what they believe.

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    Nov 26th 2013, 6:17 PM

    William, in point of fact, Hitler was not a practising Christian and persecuted any Christians who disagreed with him. Also, the swastika was never based on a crucifix

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    Nov 26th 2013, 6:57 PM

    Nearly sure that there are mosques already built in Ireland there has been one in North Roscommon/mayo ie ballaghdereen for years!

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 27th 2013, 2:54 PM

    Alison, The Germans who made up the members of the Nazi Party were most certainly Christians and many still are today. You hardly think the majority of the Nazis were Atheists do you? There’s no evidence that Hitler stopped being a Christian and in many of his speeches referred to Christianity. Where do you think he got his hatred of the Jewish Religion, the people who killed Christ? I remember when I was a child thinking the Jews must be the horrible people on Earth because they killed Jesus. Was I alone?

    Read this, “In Christianity, the swastika is used as a hooked version of the Christian Cross, the symbol of Christ’s victory over death. Some Christian churches built in the Romanesque and Gothic eras are decorated with swastikas, carrying over earlier Roman designs.” Hitler apparently walked by a church for years and saw this symbol which is probably why it was picked.
    Read this “A Protestant parish in Berlin has grabbed an ethical dilemma by the horns with an appeal for funds to save Germany’s last Nazi era church. The building’s interior is full of Third Reich symbols. The aim is to turn it into a place of remembrance. The Third Reich collapsed 61 years ago but you wouldn’t know it if you walk into the Martin Luther Memorial Church in Berlin. The stark entrance hall is lit by a black chandelier in the shape of an iron cross. The pulpit has a wooden carving of a muscular Jesus leading a helmeted Wehrmacht soldier and surrounded by an Aryan family. The baptismal font is guarded by a wooden statue of a stormtrooper from Adolf Hitler’s paramilitary Sturmabteilung (SA) unit clutching his cap.”

    I didn’t say that someone brainwashed was 100% incapable of dropping their religion. However it’s rare and when they do not, they tend to stay in the religion they were brainwashed in. You’re living in denial if you can’t see this.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 3:10 PM

    Hitler’s religion is controversial but from what I have read both from those who knew him and of his writings (awfully written on top of being morally noxious) would suggest that he was a Deist. He had a belief in “Providence” but not so much in God and certainly he was fairly agnostic about Christianity. His comments to Speer about Islam and how it was a pity that the Muslims didn’t conquer Europe so that the Germans could have a more martial faith suggest that this was not a person who took Christianity (or Islam, or any other religion for that matter) all that seriously.

    At the very least he was not a Bible literalist if he was happy to disregard the Jewishness of Jesus as described in the Gospels and arbitrarily classify him as “White European”.

    The swastika is a bit of a ubiquitous symbol. You can find isolated instances of its use across the world. However, the Nazi usage of it stems from the Aryan Invasion Hypothesis that was popular at the time, not primarily from associations with a cross.

    It’s a bit tangential to the discussion here but just thought that it should be clarified.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 3:55 PM

    @William, I really don’t know where you are pulling that information out of, but have a look at this and tell me it doesn’t look familiar to you.

    http://www.ivarta.com/columns/ol_050314.htm

    It’s a common misconception that Hitler’s motives for killing the Jews was because he thought that they were responsible for killing Jesus. This is simply not true. Hitler’s inspiration came from Nietzsche’s writings on the slave morality, whom he deemed to be of a weaker nature, a kind of sickness that was infecting the (as he calls them himself) ”blonde beasts” of Europe. He compared this to the Ubermensch, the Overman, who, in Hitler’s interpretation, would follow their ultimate will to power and take control of the slaves. Although it is widely accepted that Nietzsche did not mean for the Jews to be representative of the slaves, he was quite ill in the last years of his life, wherein which his extremely anti-Semetic sister published his works with the idea that the Jews were this kind of infection raging all over Europe. This is what inspired Mein Kampf, and this is what motivated Hitler to massacre millions of Jews. Whatever his fellow Nazi’s did in terms of religion is not as important as the fact that Hitler himself was the main perpetrator of these atrocities, and the party he formed were absolutely not Christian-based. I could go into more detail if you’d like, but I think I’ve ranted enough to prove my point.

    @David, I certainly appreciate the information you’ve provided (much of which I had not known before) but I can’t say the same appreciation will be shown by William, who seems to have a very limited, black-and-white view of things.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 4:01 PM

    About the swaztika thing as well, I’m actually currently residing in Japan, and I have travelled extensively throughout Asia, and on every single map I’ve come across, this symbol is used to denote the location of a temple. Why would they use the same symbol Hitler used if it didn’t have some previous (or even ancient), un-Nazi-related meaning?

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    Nov 27th 2013, 6:22 PM

    William, could you attribute that quote? I understood that it was generally agreed that the nazi swastika was inspired by the ancient good luck symbol used in the Indus Valley. Hitler had some quare notions about aryan origins and subsequent distribution. I’m sorry to hear that you had such negative feelings for Jews as a child. But I’m sure you’ve grown out if them.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 6:23 PM

    * of them

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    Nov 27th 2013, 7:27 PM

    @Alison. Thanks! Learned from the info provided by yourself as well! I know far less about Nietzsche and the interpretation of his ideas than I would like. A single reading of Thus Spake Zarathustra by myself just doesn’t cut it I fear.

    Reality is a complex affair and any major historical event generally involves a multiplicity of actors, motivations and causes. My general rule of thumb is to treat every simple explanation of a historical event as false. Facts are weird.

    The debate in these comments is good and it is interesting to hear different viewpoints but I think we are all slightly debating different shades of the same answer. I think we can all come together on agreeing that the contents of the mail written above are deplorable.

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    Nov 28th 2013, 1:41 AM

    William, I agree with what you say about Islam. However, there is no credible proof that humaqns evolved from a rock millions of years ago, there have been no transitional forms found despite the fact this is totally necessary for the theory of evolution to make any sense. You’d think we’d be tripping over transitional life forms left, right and center but we’re not, I wonder why?

    Also, have you ever heard of the transcendental argument for the existence of God?

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    Nov 28th 2013, 8:26 AM

    Tom you obviously live in denial. EVERY fossil found is a transitional form, just as we are. If you actually understood Evolution you wouldn’t make such a daft statement.

    God and gods, angels and devils, saints and sinners in hell are mythology. Just happens to be this part of the world’s mythology at this time. Think about the thousands of different myths throughout the world and throughout history and then tell me the Catholic Church is the right one. It’s laughable. The problem is your mind. It’s brainwashed and like all religious people broken.

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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:47 AM

    William, your arrogance and false sense of superior knowledge bring a smile to my face.

    I am well versed in the theory of evolution, but you on the other hand seem to be grossly misinformed.

    Have you ever heard of Dr. Patterson William? He’s an expert in paleontology, I suspect he knows a little more on the subject than you. Dr. Patterson had written a book for the British Museum simply called Evolution.2 Creationist Luther Sunderland wrote to Dr Patterson inquiring why he had not shown one single photograph of a transitional fossil in his book. Patterson then wrote back with the following amazing confession which was reproduced, in its entirety, in Sunderland’s book Darwin’s Enigma:

    ‘I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them. You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic licence, would that not mislead the reader?’

    He went on to say:

    ‘Yet Gould [Stephen J. Gould—the now deceased professor of paleontology from Harvard University] and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils. … You say that I should at least “show a photo of the fossil from which each type of organism was derived.” I will lay it on the line—there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.

    I think I’ve made my point very clearly and demonstrated that it is you who is living in denial and laughable ignorance.

    I’ve come across people like you many times William, and each time I have taken pleasure in refuting their nonsense with ease. It’s kind of fun ripping your weak arguments to shreds while you speak with such conviction and self assured confidence, all the time not realising you’re that ignorant guy who is wholeheartedly convinced he is right, the truly educated and informed are laughing at you William.

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    Nov 28th 2013, 10:09 AM

    William, there are many amazing unexplained phenomenon in this universe, not all of it possible to explain through known science, much of it hints toward another, not yet discernible nature in our universe.

    Wrap your little noodle around this William, then come back and explain it using modern day science, logic and reason. http://youtu.be/A9tKncAdlHQ

    Also this, http://phys.org/news/2013-11-physicists-quantum-cheshire-cats-paradoxes.html?utm_source=buffer&utm_campaign=Buffer&utm_content=buffer633bb&utm_medium=facebook#jCp

    I come to my belief based on the available evidence and through observation of my world and universe. The only logical conclusion for such a finely tuned cosmos, earth, atmosphere, life is that it was created by a superior being with supernatural abilities. It is totally illogical that something (universe) brought itself into existence out of nothing. The odds of life existing as it does in such a finely tuned way on this earth is truly astronomical to the point of impossible. If our atmosphere was even 1 half of a percent different in any way life could not exist on this planet. Could it be that you don’t posses the intellectual capability to ponder the possibilities that exist outside your insular self assured thoughts?

    Open your mind William, there’s nothing to be scarred of.

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    Nov 28th 2013, 3:07 PM

    @I wholeheartedly agree with you. Debating the origins of the universe, whilst interesting, is of little relevance to this disgusting, bigoted letter that was sent around to the Muslim community in Ireland. The only point I was trying to make was that extremists do not have to be religious. They come from all walks of life and in many different forms. And although I did enjoy debating with you, William, you have merely proven this point further by displaying your, in my opinion, quite narrow-minded and unreceptive stance, showing that indeed, extremism can really come from anywhere. It just takes one person to passionately believe in some cause, and to have others share that passion (or to influence them somehow), with one person disagreeing what you’re passionate about and BOOM. Fundamentalism is born. We’ve all gotten fairly passionate and most likely frustrated through this debate online, now imagine this on a larger scale. We’re all a little bit extremist, I guess.

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    Nov 28th 2013, 8:12 PM

    Tom, here’s another quote from Patterson, “In several animal and plant groups, enough fossils are known to bridge the wide gaps between existing types. In mammals, for example, the gap between horses, asses and zebras (genus Equus) and their closest living relatives, the rhinoceroses and tapirs, is filled by an extensive series of fossils extending back sixty-million years to a small animal, Hyracotherium, which can only be distinguished from the rhinoceros-tapir group by one or two horse-like details of the skull. There are many other examples of fossil ‘missing links’, such as Archaeopteryx, the Jurassic bird which links birds with dinosaurs (Fig. 45), and Ichthyostega, the late Devonian amphibian which links land vertebrates and the extinct choanate (having internal nostrils) fishes. . .”

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    Nov 28th 2013, 8:15 PM

    The problem with you religious nut jobs is that you live in denial. There are many tens of thousands of professional biologists in the world, many specializing in Evolutionary biology, who state that Evolution is a fact. Virtually none of them disagree. Either the people who go into Evolutionary Biology, as opposed to say Aeronautical Engineering, are complete idiots or you are. Which do you think is more likely?

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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:51 PM

    Sooo what you’re actually saying William is that this Dr has contradicted himself?
    In which case his opinions may not be credible?

    There are zero transitional forms, and none have ever been found. If there were they would be plastered all over the place by the liberal leftist agenda setters.

    As for your claim about Evolutionists claiming evolution is a fact, that’s called circular reasoning. Also, these biased biologists depend on state funding for their research and to live, why would they deny the existence of the very thing they have spent years specialising in and getting paid for?

    The problem with you atheist nut jobs is that you are blinded by your own arrogance and ignorance and lack the capability to step out of your insular comfort zone.

    No serious academic biologist accepts any connection between Archaopteryx and reptiles any more, that idea has been discarded years ago. You really haven’t a clue William and you should stop embarrassing yourself, you’ve already lost all credibility

    Here’s a couple of experts and Phd’s in biology, again I’m guessing they know more than you, destroying your arguments.

    http://youtu.be/_LTaPIK7maY

    http://youtu.be/a2RZzyFTTXo

    http://youtu.be/xL7TVSRGft8

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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:57 PM

    Sooo what you’re actually saying William is that this Dr has contradicted himself?
    In which case his opinions may not be credible?

    There are zero transitional forms, and none have ever been found. If there were they would be plastered all over the place by the liberal leftist agenda setters.

    As for your claim about Evolutionists claiming evolution is a fact, that’s called circular reasoning. Also, these biased biologists depend on state funding for their research and to live, why would they deny the existence of the very thing they have spent years specialising in and getting paid for?

    The problem with you atheist nut jobs is that you are blinded by your own arrogance and ignorance and lack the capability to step out of your insular comfort zone.

    No serious academic biologist accepts any connection between Archaopteryx and reptiles any more, that idea has been discarded years ago. You really haven’t a clue William and you should stop embarrassing yourself, you’ve already lost all credibility

    Here’s a couple of experts and Phd’s in biology, again I’m guessing they know more than you, destroying your arguments.

    http://youtu.be/_LTaPIK7maY

    http://youtu.be/a2RZzyFTTXo

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    Nov 29th 2013, 8:25 AM

    Tom, so tens of thousands of Zoologists, Botanist, and Biologists throughout the world are living in a giant conspiracy so that they can get their pay packets? They all know that Evolution is a lie but nevertheless go about field trips and studying DNA and publishing fake papers just to earn a dishonest buck? If you seriously believe that then you need medical treatment.

    The first link is to a serious Moonie nut case who has said, “Of his student days at Unification Theological Seminary (1976–78), Wells said, “One of the things that Father [Reverend Sun Myung Moon] advised us to do at UTS was to pray to seek God’s plan for our lives.”

    The second link is to another unfortunate who has lost his marbles and apparently become a Jehovah’s Witness, an 100 odd year old extreme religion which dismisses Evolution and think God made the world 6,000 years ago. No doubt you agree also with his belief that Catholics are part of the anti-Christ’s work and not Christians.

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    Nov 29th 2013, 10:42 AM

    William, you’ve just ignored all the evidence provided and instead chosen to attack these experts personally. That is beyond pathetic and just proves that I’m wasting my time with you, you don’t want to know the truth because it threatens your world view, the thought of change frightens you.

    I won’t waste any more of my time providing evidence for you, I’ll leave you to wallow in your ignorance.

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    Nov 29th 2013, 11:18 AM

    Tom – I found this interesting . Prof . David Berlinski is a genius .
    DNA is…a…language of A’s, T’s, G’s, and C’s that somehow encodes all the designs we find in organisms. But how can random perturbations in such a language yield usable material for evolution? In every other language we know of, Mr. Berlinski writes, ‘randomness…is the enemy of order.’ Random changes in English yield gibberish… And so, he argues, look what Darwinism really asks of us: it demands we believe that selection uses random changes in DNA, when–by analogy with any other…language–such changes should yield mere gibberish, hopelessly ‘jamming’ organisms.”

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    Nov 29th 2013, 5:33 PM

    Tom, when you quote an “expert” who is a Moonie you totally discredit yourself. YOU don’t even believe in Moonies yourself or Muslims for that matter. So you pull two religious extremists out of the hat and ignore the other 99.99999% of scientists who are experts and Nobel Prize winners in Biology and who are not already opposed to Evolution for religious reasons? What does that make you?

    Sebastian, your point is nonsense. Changes in the DNA are probably mainly bad or neutral BUT when one is not bad but beneficial and occurs in one individual among millions of creatures over aeons of time they the species slowly changes. The sum of these changes over millions of years produces new species. It could take as little as one small change in a gene to increase the size of a brain dramatically. Your point is rubbish anyway because that is exactly what happens.

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    Nov 29th 2013, 5:43 PM

    Seb, Prof . David Berlinski is not within an ass’s roar of being a genius.

    Here’s a link to some facts about him. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/David_Berlinski

    Some quotes about him from well known sources.

    David Berlinski is an American philosopher and intelligent design advocate. He is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture.[1] He has also written on mathematics, including a rather well-received introduction to calculus, though his books “Newton’s Gift” and “The Advent of the Algorithm”, his only two books to be reviewed on MathSciNet, were criticized for containing historical and mathematical inaccuracies. It is worth noting that his books on mathematics are popular books. Although often referred to as a “mathematician”, Berlinski has done no research in mathematics.[2]He has also written several books of fiction – cynics would probably claim that he’s written more of these than he thinks…

    But true to the creation-science genre, his approach consists of constructing strawmen, then knocking them down with misinterpreted, faulty, or nonexistent data as well as carefully selected quotations from evolutionary scientists.

    ….he told Ben Stein that “Darwinism is not a sufficient condition for a phenomenon like Nazism but I think it’s certainly a necessary one,” apparently because race-based genocide had never happened before The Origin of Species, which was, by the way, banned in Nazi Germany.

    and my favorite one, PZ Myers has summed up Berlinski as a bad case of delusional narcissism

    :))

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 29th 2013, 5:49 PM

    Dawkins tells of a story of your “genius”

    David Berlinski’s article reminds me of the tactics employed by a certain creationist with whom I once shared a platform in Oxford. The great evolutionist John Maynard Smith was also on the bill, and he spoke after this creationist. Maynard Smith was, of course, easily able to destroy the creationist’s case, and in his good-natured way he soon had the audience roaring with appreciative laughter at its expense. The creationist had his own peculiar way of dealing with this. He sprang to his feet, palms facing the audience in a gesture eloquent of magnanimous reproof. “No, no!” he cried reproachfully, “Don’t laugh. Let Maynard Smith have his say. It’s only fair!” This desperate pretense that the audience was laughing at Maynard Smith, when in fact it was laughing with Maynard Smith at the creationist himself, reminds me of Mr. Berlinski’s pretending to misunderstand Jacques Monod and me to the extent of thinking we disagree with each other over the issue of chance.

    As for the identity of the creationist who tried to pull this little stunt on Maynard Smith, it was none other than David Berlinski. The audience, by the way, saw through his tactic instantly and treated it with hoots of derision.

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    Mute Tom Rooney
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    Nov 29th 2013, 7:12 PM

    William, I don’t care what those scientists personal faith is, you’re the only one who keeps bringing that up as some pathetic attempt at character assassination.

    The guys I quoted are Phd level scientists, they know a damn sight more than you and your exaggerated claims. You continually ignore the facts laid out in front of you, the only thing your consistent in is burying your head in the sand. Evolution is based on flawed assumptions and as of yet is an unproven theory.

    The fact is that the billions of known fossils do not include a single unequivocal transitional form with transitional structures in the process of evolving. Given that evolution, according to Darwin, was in a continual state of motion . . . it follows logically that the fossil record should be rife with examples of transitional forms leading from the less to the more evolved

    In no way does the idea of particles-to-people evolution meet the long-accepted criteria of a scientific theory. There are no such evolutionary transitions that have ever been observed in the fossil record of the past; and the universal law of entropy seems to make it impossible on any significant scale.

    Evolutionists claim that evolution is a scientific fact, but they almost always lose scientific debates with creationist scientists. Accordingly, most evolutionists now decline opportunities for scientific debates, preferring instead to make unilateral attacks on creationists.

    The fact is that evolutionists believe in evolution because they want to. It is their desire at all costs to explain the origin of everything without a Creator. Evolutionism is thus intrinsically an atheistic religion. Some may prefer to call it humanism, and “new age” evolutionists place it in the context of some form of pantheism, but they all amount to the same thing. Whether atheism or humanism (or even pantheism), the purpose is to eliminate a personal God from any active role in the origin of the universe and all its components, including man.

    It is well known by almost everyone in the scientific world today that such influential evolutionists as Stephen Jay Gould and Edward Wilson of Harvard, Richard Dawkins of England, William Provine of Cornell, and numerous other evolutionary spokesmen are dogmatic atheists. Eminent scientific philosopher and ardent Darwinian atheist Michael Ruse has even acknowledged that evolution is their religion!

    Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion — a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality . . . . Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 30th 2013, 12:08 PM

    Here’s a link to a large set of rebuttal’s of that chancer Berlinski’s claims.

    http://www.2think.org/letters.shtml

    When is the last time you heard a Scientist say something like this? “Of his student days at Unification Theological Seminary (1976–78), Wells said, “One of the things that Father [Reverend Sun Myung Moon] advised us to do at UTS was to pray to seek God’s plan for our lives.”

    You quote a theology graduate, not a Scientist. Slight difference.

    As a matter of interest, are you a troll or stark raving bonkers? :)

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    Mute Rick Kuda
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    Jan 17th 2014, 9:07 AM

    Adolph Hitler once said that the German people and Christianity were one and the same, and there should be no problem between the church and government. He was speaking against separation of church and state. Why do people always stick him in the atheist category? Personally, I think the above letter was written by a muslim, but all religions are equally harmful to free thought. They should be categorized as hate-speech, and discarded, if not banned.

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    Mute Sean O'Regan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:25 PM

    Oh great because we haven’t had enough of people knocking the shite out of each other over religion on this island.

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    Mute Maria Conroy Byrne
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    Nov 26th 2013, 11:42 AM

    This sounds more like pure ignorance and racism rather than anything to do with religion.

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    Mute Chris Mcdonnell
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    Nov 26th 2013, 4:25 PM

    I believe this letter is a con job.
    The first part under the photo of Michael Collins keeps mentioning “our countries” and this to me indicates this racist bull comes from somewhere other than Ireland.

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 26th 2013, 5:01 PM

    since when is ISLAM a race ?

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    Mute Foxtrot Hotel
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    Nov 26th 2013, 5:59 PM

    It’s not a race, but most Muslims come from foreign countries. I find it funny that the dopes who made this probably only think Arabs and Persians are Muslim, never thinking about Asia, where Indonesia has the largest Muslim population on Earth.

    I’ve never had a problem with Muslims, or any other religion for that matter. I’d rather a family from Baghdad live next door to me than the filth who wrote this nonsense.

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 26th 2013, 6:20 PM
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    Mute Guapito Donnochito O'Ceallaigh
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    Nov 27th 2013, 12:11 PM

    Our country’s people not our countries peoples.

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    Mute Martin Byrne
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    Nov 30th 2013, 1:18 PM

    I never thought to see such idiotic arguments over religion, I thought the world had evolved beyond this medieval carry on. I though we the Irish people were a nation of independent thinkers. apparently not.

    The people this article was written about that threatened Irish Muslims and their little children with harm these fools are disgrace to any republic.

    Many people in this country in the 1930’s swallowed the anti Jewish German propaganda and similar threats were made against Irish Jews mainly in Dublin back then. 80 years later and again the same type of mindless easily lead people that swallowed the Nazi propaganda have popped up again this time with anti Islamic BS peddled by the George Bush administration to facilitate his genocide war on Iraq. The same anti Islamic BS has been sustained ever since by the western right wing media in order to keep generating massive profits for private corporations mainly in military industrial complex and Oil companies.

    Islam is no more a threat to take over Ireland than the British are likely to come back. Sure there are fundamentalists that shout such threats but the big question is why are they given such a voice on the media when they are so few of them. the answer is to create fear and distrust of all things Muslim in western populations in order to continue the fake war on Terror. Muslims are being used as patsies for an unending false war for private corporate gain.

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    Mute Antonio Perales
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    Dec 20th 2013, 7:08 AM

    hahahahahahaha!!! your response hit the nail on the head. classic.

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    Mute Right Wing Steve ©
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:25 PM

    Are the followers of Mohammad a race now?

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:22 PM

    Well, these bigots usually direct their hatred at Arab Muslims in particular.

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    Mute AICS (Steve Tracey)
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:35 PM

    Colman,
    Can’t speak too much for here but across the water it’s a mainly Pakistani and Bangladeshis, strongly suspect same here. Not huge Arab communities either UK or Ireland.

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    Mute Gamasello Nohto
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:13 PM

    Are the followers of Jesus a race? If yes, what about Protestant-Catholic problems? and Church of Irelnad followers? Race in race? What about Atheists, Buddhists and agnostics like me? Lost in translation…

    Simple answer is NO. However religion can be considered as a ideology like communism or fascism etc. i think.

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:24 PM

    These guys will terrorise people who look muslim. You can’t opt out of fascist discrimination by becoming an atheist. These bigots don’t care because it’s nothing to do with religious ideology and everything to do with hating minorities because they’re different.

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    Mute Alan Little
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:58 PM

    While I dont agree with the tone of the letter I do welcome a mature and civilised debate about the roll and impact Islam has and will have on our society without been branded a racist. We know ourselves from our own history what harm religion can have on our society.
    We are told again and again by experts that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion maybe true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff meant to make us feel better and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.
    The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage war any of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and become suicide bombers.
    So lets debate…

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    Mute Diarmaid Twomey
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:05 PM

    As would I! That doesn’t make you racist, that makes you pragmatic! Muslims are people like you and I though, that clearly isn’t borne in mind by many people!

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    Mute Rommel Burke
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:29 PM

    It is also only the fanatics that make the news, not the millions of Muslims getting on with their lives peacefully like most people of all faiths and none.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:55 PM

    Extremism is by no means restricted to religion..
    Football hooliganism is a form of extremism. We had extremist members of a certain lobby group sending disgusting things to TDs in the post not so long ago, there’s been several examples of extremist animal rights groups.

    Something tells me that what makes the extremist is only partly the thing that they choose to get extreme about, the extremism comes from their individual make up, or how easily led they may be.

    Mind you, those Abrahamic religions scriptures promote extremism.. Anything that tries to tell you that by virtue of being a believer you are somehow superior to others is going to cause trouble..

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    Mute Alison Kerplunk-Hasselhoff
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:33 PM

    First of all, it almost sounds as though you are describing the history of the Christian church. While many Christians were out pillaging and raping in the Holy Land during the Crusades, or slaughtering heretics throughout the Reformation/Counter-Reformation, what do you think the everyday Christians were doing? Also pillaging, raping and slaughtering? I think not.

    Secondly, it’s important to realise that the mass media is very much focused on these extremist groups, so much so that it completely clouds our image of everyday Muslims, turning it into some stereotypical view that only accounts for a minority of the Muslim population. Many of the Muslims I have spoken to who now reside in countries such as Ireland and the UK have explicitly moved there because they wanted to get away from the violence in their home countries. Now, why would you think that they would bring the violence they were trying to escape into their new homes? That doesn’t make much sense to me.

    Finally, Sharia Law is primarily utilised by corrupt governments, who want to use the veil of fundamentalist Islam to purport their own agenda – usually to scare the people of their country into cooperating with them. Hence, they introduce such laws as stoning women for committing adultery etc., to force the people of that country into submission. Any Muslim will tell you that that is a complete distortion of what the Koran teaches. And although you pointed out that this is some kind of ‘fluff’ used to guard us from the evil that is inherent in Islam, I would much rather trust their views on their religion, rather than an outsiders like yours (no offence).

    I would also like to point out that there has never been one single case of Muslim extremism in Ireland, there have been no public stonings or hangings, there have been no suicide bombers on the streets of our cities, and there has been no REAL attempt by a large number of Muslims to implement the Sharia Law in Ireland, so I really don’t understand why we are so obsessed with Islamic fanaticism in Ireland, when we already have so many Catholic/Protestant extremists who are already taking action in the name of their religion. Should we also ban all Protestants from the South? Or all Catholics from the North? They have a track record, you know. Or would that be sectarian? I’ll let you make up your mind on that and compare it with what is suggested in this letter.

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    Mute Alan Little
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:12 PM

    Firstly, I have no problem agreeing with your assertion that I could well be describing early Christian crusades. The carry on that went on in the Catholic church upon to only recently was utterly despicable and what made it even more deplorable was the fact that a blind eye was turned to it by the authorities, such was the grip the Catholic church had on the generation before us. I would like to think that we have somewhat matured as a nation and now realise the danger religion poses when its brainwashes an individual on how they should live their life.
    I am an atheist by choice. 20 years ago I probably would have had to keep that to myself, society would have looked down on me. How times have changed. I don’t trust religion in general. I don’t fear Islam but I don’t believe the majority of peace loving muslims who we hear so much about have done anything close to significant enough to take on the fanatics that are hijacking their religion to instil any confidence in me, as “an outsider”, that Islamist fanatics will never be a problem in Ireland. Muslims are quick to take to the streets and riot over a Danish cartoonist ( I don’t expect you to understand how absurd that is to an atheist) but dont seem to make a lot of noise when Islamic fanatics butcher shoppers in a mall etc etc.
    There has to be a time when society says enough is enough, not in our name. We did it when the IRA blew up shoppers in Omagh, we took to the streets. Muslims have to earn trust. No offense.

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    Mute cholly appleseed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:24 PM

    Alison, Im guessing the reason we havent been targeted by extremism is because of a lack of resources to monitor extremism. They are not a direct threat to us therefore we do not invest in it. Didnt a uk paper say ireland was a breeding ground for extremism because of our open policy and the fact we are sandwiched between the two biggest targets. The UK and US.

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    Mute margaret
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:48 PM

    The millions of Muslims getting on with their lives tend to be remarkable silent on the violent excesses if the extremists. Where are the marches in protest? Don’t see them. Only see wild eyed fanatics carrying Behead Unbelievers, and such gate filled vitriolic placards.

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    Mute margaret
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:52 PM

    There have been many polls done and the majority of Muslims believe in Sharia. A frighteningly high percentage of Muslims, particularly in Pakistan, the least amount in Indonesia, but still significant believe in death for apostates, and death for adultery. Scratch most Muslims and a fundamentalists is lurking in there. It’s called being a “good” Muslim.

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    Mute Alan Little
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:42 PM

    Millions of Germans got on with their lives peacefully up until world war 2. With hindsight they probably would have been better off making a stand against the fanatics who took control of their country rather than just peacefully doing nothing at all.

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:56 PM

    Unfortunately, a Muslim condemning violence doesn’t make the news, but any nutter being offensive gets attention. Hence the coverage of this letter.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:04 PM

    Try reading the Torah or the New Testament. According to them no one is being a “good” Jew or a “good” Christian..
    Have you links for these polls as a matter of interest?

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    Mute margaret
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:16 PM

    As a matter of fact I have. Will be back

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    Mute margaret
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:34 PM
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    Mute hsianloon
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:50 PM

    Christians are killing people all over the globe too. The America army who has perpetuated most of the wars in the last century are made out of?

    The colonial powers that wrecked the middle east into what it is today are of what religion?

    The Muslim’s are playing catch up with kill counts….

    I’m a Christian by the way

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    Mute SinAssist
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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:09 PM

    So that’s merely 1% of the UK population, sure even the headless BNP have more national support than that!

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:41 PM

    Thank you for providing the link to the article. It’s not the poll itself but it will do.

    They asked 500 Muslims and 40% said they supported Sharia law in certain parts of the UK that are predominantly Muslim. Still a silly thing to expect, but it’s hardly representative of the whole. 91% said they felt loyal to the UK too.

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    Mute Tom Sullivan
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:07 AM

    @Shanti Om
    Abrahamic religions are not the only religions that have their extremist fringes. Other religions that are more “touchy feely” on the surface also have their extremists who are pretty damn good at dishing out bile-filled hate. Hindus, for example, have the Bharatiya Janata, the Indian People’s Party and Rashtriya Swayamesevak Sangh. Buddhists have the Bodu Bala Sena in Sri Lanka and the 969 movement in Myanmar.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:16 AM

    I know Tom – and if you look above you will see that I said it’s not even limited to religion, extremism is something that some people are prone to and they will become extreme about whatever it is that takes their fancy..
    Sure even Buddhism which preaches balance and enlightenment through non attachment can and has been taken to the extreme.. Personally I think it’s more to do with the individuals / leaders than the ideology / movement in most cases.
    However – there are some very choice verses that can easily be used as justification for extremist behaviour within these ancient texts, and sadly – they are.

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    Mute Alison Kerplunk-Hasselhoff
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:42 PM

    Athiests are also extremists in their own ways, the fact that many of them are completely unopen and unreceptive to any sort of religious belief. The fact of the matter is that extremism can come in any shape or form. I’m glad the Nazi’s were brought up – this is a perfect example of how a non-religious party could do atrocious things to a religious group of people. The Communist Era in the USSR and Yugoslavia is another example of a non-religious party who committed horrendous violations against human rights, the latter being explicitly true against the large Muslim community in Bosnia and Albania. Of course, everyone would agree that these acts were, indeed, atrocious and cannot justify some kind of retaliation on behalf of the Islamic community, however, you have to admit that the overbearing amount of double-standards in these comments are surprising to say the least. Point being that extremism comes in all shapes and forms, and we simply cannot target one group in society as a danger without including other groups that could potentially become a threat to our freedoms. Furthermore, we live in a democracy. Somehow Hitler worked his way up to the ranks, but I think we have learn from our mistakes in that respect. I highly doubt that anyone will be voting for a Muslim suspecting of harboring fundamentalist values.

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 26th 2013, 5:12 PM

    Until caste is eradicated, anyone trying to claim the mantle of tolerance for Hinduism must be opposed and challenged.So just shut up about Abrahamic religions .

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 26th 2013, 5:27 PM

    Alison as I said elsewhere, the Nazis and the vast majority of Germans were Christians. The USSR was Communist and most certainly not Humanist. Communism is as much a religion as any other.

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 26th 2013, 6:06 PM

    Is Hinduism also an Abrahamic religion ?
    Or are you just an ignorant hindu ?
    A consolidation of various anti-conversion or so-called “Freedom of Religion” Laws has been done by the All Indian Christian Council.
    In the past, several Indian states passed Freedom of Religion Bills primarily to prevent people from converting to Christianity. Arunachal Pradesh passed a bill in 1978. In 2003, Gujarat State, passed an anti-conversion bill in 2003.
    In July 2006, the Madhya Pradesh government passed legislation requiring people who desire to convert to a different religion to provide the government with one month’s notice, or face fines and penalties.
    In August 2006, the Chhattisgarh State Assembly passed similar legislation requiring anyone who desires to convert to another religion to give 30 days’ notice to, and seek permission from, the district magistrate.
    In February 2007, Himachal Pradesh became the first Congress Party-ruled state to adopt legislation banning illegal religious conversions.[12]
    The US State Department has claimed that the recent wave of anti-conversion laws in various Indian states passed by some states is seen as gradual and continuous institutionalisation of Hindutva

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 26th 2013, 10:50 PM

    Who is Hindu here? Or are you using an assumption to make an ad hominem argument?
    Who’s the ignorant one now?

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:35 AM

    “Athiests are also extremists in their own ways”

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:27 AM

    American wars are driven by greed – they don’t shout ” Jesus is greatest” when killing people .Islamic wars are carried out in the name of Allah !
    Read the Quran and Hadiths please .

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:30 AM

    just in case you failed to notice – no one accused you of being a Hindu – you are just someone with an opinion about everything !

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    Mute Alison Kerplunk-Hasselhoff
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    Nov 27th 2013, 2:10 PM

    @William, and as I’ve said elsewhere, the Nazi’s were most certainly not Christians. The swaztika was based on a Hindu symbol, not a Christian one. Hitler was primarily influenced by Friedrich Nietzsche who despised the Christian Church and all other religious institutions.

    And communism is absolutely NOT a religion.That is such an absurd statement!! It is a political ideology just as much as any other – democracy, capitalism etc. Or would you argue that those are religions too? What else could you include in your umbrella of what it means to be a religion? Justin Bieberism?!

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    Mute Alison Kerplunk-Hasselhoff
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    Nov 27th 2013, 2:11 PM

    @Tony, why are you quoting me without any reference to your own opinion? Just seems a bit futile.

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    Mute Rick Kuda
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    Jan 17th 2014, 9:19 AM

    “..the German people and Christianity are one and the same…’ -Adolph Hitler

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    Mute J. Dunn
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:04 PM

    There’s always a chance that it’s nothing more than propaganda generated by someone within the muslim community.

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    Mute Wayne Kavanagh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:12 PM

    The spelling had me thinking that way too

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    Mute Jonathan Flynn
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:23 PM

    Because as we know, all Irish people (particularly the racist, ignorant kind) have perfect spelling and grammar, while Muslims do not.

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    Mute Wayne Kavanagh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:26 PM

    If English isn’t their first language spelling errors and grammatical errors are highly likely to occur

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    Mute Emily Elephant
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:34 PM

    Much of the syntax isn’t English either. It reads like a YouTube comment which has been run through Google Translate twice.

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    Mute Jonathan Flynn
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:41 PM

    You genuinely think that the most logical explanation in this case is that it’s the work of a Muslim looking to garner sympathy for his/her community?

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:45 PM

    Very good point. It’s not just the grammar but the phraseology. It isn’t a native English speaker who wrote it.

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    Mute Brian Carey
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:51 PM

    Keep telling yourself that. It’s intellectually cowardly of course (not to mention motivated by precisely the same kind of sectarianism and xenophobia that motivates the original letter), but if it helps you pretend that the author(s) of this letter aren’t anything other than your slightly less subtle ideological bedfellows, I suppose that little fiction can serve its purpose.

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    Mute Briny Boy
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:53 PM

    @J Dunn – There are conspiracy theories and there is also claptrap like that. It’s the sort of illiterate drivel that you see from all those bullsh1t ‘Keep Ireland for the Irish’ websites and Facebook groups that you see nowadays. Hopefully these morons will be caught and done for hate crimes.

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    Mute Emily Elephant
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:08 PM

    So textual analysis = xenophobia.

    Have I got that right?

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    Mute J. Dunn
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:11 PM

    Until an actual person is connected to this letter we will not know.
    As for intellectual cowardice, xenophobia and the like, you could just call me a stupid racist. No need for flowery embellishment for the sake of intellectual peacockery.

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    Mute Marc Marcel
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:11 AM

    i don’t think it was written by a native english speaker either. we shall wait and see but looks like a sympathy vote to me. be interesting if they find out who did it, but wait… if it’s not who they want it to be then it may get floored under the rug eh. we may never hear anymore about this.

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    Mute O Swetenham
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:27 PM

    Utter trash, “DEFENDERS OF IRELAND”…..I feel so safe knowing that people like this are defending me. Why is it that the most vocal self professed ‘patriots’ are always poorly educated ignorant tools.

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    Mute Scarr
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:46 PM

    Maybe we could use the writer as part of ‘operation human shield’

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    Mute Michael Connolly
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:09 PM

    It’s like the work of one poorly educated person with nobody available to do the proof reading and possibly was so frazzled after writing that they couldn’t read it back. If it’s the work of a larger group then they’ll likely implode on themselves before long.

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    Mute Paul Darby
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:02 PM

    Dont be surprised if it turns out to be a muslim that wrote it.They will play every card in the book to get the sympathy of the lefties.

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    Mute Marlene Fernane
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:48 PM

    Somewhere a village is missing an idiot.

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    Mute The Bourgeois Pope
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:38 PM

    Islam is not a race.

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    Mute Hominibus Mortuis
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:20 PM

    But its easier for the bigoted little idiot to blame Islam that admit he’s just an illiterate racist with massive self esteem issues.

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    Mute Yuet Ngor Rappard
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    Nov 29th 2013, 11:58 AM

    Thank you! I get sick and tired of people calling it “racist” whenever we say something against the Muslims and their evil Islam. We are attacking their so called religion, not their skin colour. Muslims come in all skin colours!

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    Mute james doyle
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:57 PM

    Ireland’s largest mosque gets planning permission (via TheJournal.ie) http://www.thejournal.ie/irelands-largest-mosque-clongriffin-1060199-Aug2013/ has anybody else seen the size of the mosque there building in Dublin

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    Mute Niamh Byrne
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:01 PM

    And ur point is?? By the way it’s ‘they’re’…

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    Mute Declan Carr
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:21 PM

    the reason for that is money lots of it, but they will build it themselves, so not quite as much will go to the executor as hoped.

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    Mute kksjddjjdn
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:41 PM

    Niamh correcting grammar makes you sound like a fool
    Learn to refute or dont bother love

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    Mute kksjddjjdn
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:42 PM

    PS I heard the Mosque was the size of Co. Down

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    Mute Niamh Byrne
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:51 PM

    Don’t call me love…love! I assume that James was vaguely inferring that Muslims are planning a covert take over by building a mosque in Dublin…I thought it ironic that his grammar reflects that of the letter…hence pointing it out! That ok love?!

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    Mute kksjddjjdn
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:53 PM

    Listen Love
    Your use of grammar doesn’t make up for your lack of intellect Love

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    Mute Niamh Byrne
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:57 PM
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    Mute kksjddjjdn
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:03 PM

    No its a statement of fact based on your previous statements Love

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    Mute Paul Somers
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:09 PM

    @James, the best thing about that link is not the size of the development, but in the message been presented “Our biggest challenge is to build a community that is all inclusive (For all, irrespective of religion), where people of other faiths can come and feel part of this development and can feel they can use the facilities it will have,”

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:50 PM

    Paul, what if you’re a women in a mini skirt?

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    Mute Margaret Cantwell
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:49 PM

    @Paul Somers: That may be true, or it may be wishful thinking. Whatever size the mosque will be, you can guarantee that the women will be segregated into a separate room during their religious services, Otherwise there is the danger that women may be liable to take the men’s attention away from their worship. That is Muslim belief, …. not mine!

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:50 PM
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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:58 PM

    And the place of women in the Catholic church is so impressive?

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    Mute Tom Sullivan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:41 PM

    Good point Shanti. The Burqa is not exclusively Islamic either. Many ultra-Orthodox Jewish in Israel have adopted the same practise.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:51 PM

    That is because the practice comes from Corinthians
    “1Cr 11:3
    But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

    1Cr 11:4
    Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

    1Cr 11:5
    But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

    1Cr 11:6
    For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

    1Cr 11:7
    For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

    1Cr 11:8
    For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.

    1Cr 11:9
    Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

    1Cr 11:10
    For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.”

    The whole notion of women covering up is far older than the Koran.

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    Mute Marc Marcel
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:15 AM

    apparently it will create 10,000 jobs and pump 100 million into the economy or some other made up shite for us to accept is as good :/

    yawn

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 26th 2013, 6:12 PM

    Hindu women cover up their faces too .

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 27th 2013, 6:40 PM

    James – I believe that New Yorkers were well put out when Irish immigrants wanted to build a cathedral. Just another landmark now.

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    Mute Jeremy Kyle
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:52 PM

    A big fuss over a letter. Typical lazy, sensationalist journalism from the journal. Don’t you have another article from buzzfeed to plagiarise? Muslims vow to kill all infidels every day of the week but it’s only news when the reverse happens.

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:00 PM

    Bull Jeremy. If this was getting reported in a muslim country under the headline “The Irish Hate Us” you’d be happy with that would you? In the same way as this donkey doesn’t speak for you “muslim” does not mean “jihadist”.

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    Mute Jeremy Kyle
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:05 PM

    What’s a “muslim country” ?

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:07 PM

    A country like Iran for example where muslim law is tied into politics.

    Read moar.

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    Mute Jeremy Kyle
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:09 PM

    Fascinating. You are aware there are different branches of Islam which are openly hostile to each other? Is there room for Atheists or Jews in “muslim countries” ?

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    Mute Carcu Sidub
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:10 PM

    Tony

    Do you mean unlike Irleand which does not have religious law tied into politics, oh hold on a sec.

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    Mute Jeremy Kyle
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:10 PM

    Fascinating. Is there any room for Atheists or Jews in “muslim countries” ? You are aware there are many branches of Islam and it’s not one homogenous block?

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:19 PM

    Carcu – my original response to Jeremy was an example of how people are so often happy to lazily associate suicide bombers with all muslims. I’m glad this is getting reported – it stinks of “idiots do something that shows they are idiots” rather than “the Irish hate muslims”. I’m well aware that not only is the separation of church and state not exactly complete but that the gov has actively and legally excused religious prejudice in some areas (look at the education act for example).

    Jeremy – not really sure how your point follows. I’m well aware of what your saying – I just don’t know why your saying it. It doesn’t really seem to address anything said before.

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    Mute Jeremy Kyle
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:23 PM

    Avoids the questions like a true Red

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:57 PM

    Jeremy – it wasn’t avoiding anything. if you feel some kind of unfulfilled need to have those questions answered here’s my answers.
    Jews & Athiests – no, they certainly haven’t been made feel welcome. Is that supposed to be some kind of support for the kind of views expressed in this letter?

    And yes I am aware that there are many “flavours” of Islam.

    Again though – can you explain how that relates to my original comment?

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    Mute Tom Sullivan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:39 PM

    Tony, you are obviously unaware that Tehran has a small but not insignificant Jewish population. A Jewish population that refused to leave even when offered quite generous financial inducements by Tel Aviv.

    As others have pointed out, Islam isn’t some homogenous entity. It is a belief system as varied as Christianity, ranging from the mystic Sufis through to the crazy Wahabist Saudi-supported fundamentalists.

    Most anti-Islam ignoramuses aren’t even aware that the world’s most populous predominantly Muslim nations aren’t in the Middle East, but in Eastern Asia.

    For what its worth, as an agnostic, I have no axe to grind here. I’m ambivalent to all religions until they impose on my personal liberties. Then I’ll feel free to hate the religion, but never the believers.

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    Mute Jack Matthynssens
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:25 PM

    The spelling, punctuation and grammar in that letter is attrocious!

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    Mute Kevin Smyth
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:24 PM

    It always is.

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    Mute Emily Elephant
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:28 PM

    *atrocious

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    Mute Jack Matthynssens
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:34 PM

    Damn it Emily, let me have my moment!

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    Mute Larry Bird
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:39 PM

    You’re punctuation isn’t so great itself! There Jack! Only messin!!!!! ….! There jack!!!

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    Mute EndaMeKnob
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:45 PM

    Your rong Larry its there’re – tree exclamashion marcs !!!! :)

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    Mute Jack Matthynssens
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:48 PM

    Ah now Larry, the journal isn’t the place for such exaggeration… Or is it larry?

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    Mute Jane Travers
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:59 PM

    *Your

    Sorry! Sorry! I had to ;)

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    Mute kksjddjjdn
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:04 PM

    Your grammar doesn’t make up for you lack of intellect Love

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    Mute Jack Matthynssens
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:12 PM

    You kksjddjjdn maybe an egghead, but far removed from the BBC variety I’m afraid. By the way it’s “your lack of intellect”.

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    Mute kksjddjjdn
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:13 PM

    Thats ironic considering my previous statement
    You can educate an idiot but its still an idiot

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    Mute Richard Curtis
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:16 PM

    Love with capital L!?

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    Mute Jack Matthynssens
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:17 PM

    *That’s *it’s

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    Mute kksjddjjdn
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:18 PM

    Point proven

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    Mute Larry Bird
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:22 PM

    Jack, I’m just tired of exclamation marks, I’m just tired Jack.

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    Mute Geert Wilders
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:22 PM

    The letter is way OTT and vile in the extreme but something does need to be done about the planned “Super Mosque” it is very bad news for the country and our culture.

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    Mute Scarr
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:45 PM

    Strong name to post content ratio.

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    Mute Conor Broseph Ryan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:19 PM

    Why is that Geert, are they going to force you to go to it?

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:53 PM

    I live nearby, and nobody I know has a problem with it.

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:41 PM

    What’s the problem Geert. I have misgivings about Catholicis and the negative effect I believe it has on our country, but I would never for a moment seek to ‘do something’ about the Catholic churches in every town in the land… the majority of people don’t attend them either, but I have no problem with Catholics believing whatever they wish and gathering in their own churches to do whatever they wish, so long as it is legal!

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:42 PM

    Sorry, that was meant to read “about Catholicism”, not about Catholics – I have no misgivings about Catholics!

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    Mute Daniel Lydon
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:44 PM

    No but try set up a catholic church or support any other religion in one of their countries and see what happens.You wouldn’t be able to live to tell the tale

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:19 PM

    Sorry Daniel, I thought we were talking about people who are Muslim living in THIS country. And if some countries are fundamentalist and fanatical and anti-other religions, I would condemn that too, but does that mean we have to be the same??? There is a strange elision here of religion with countries. I think it would be unfair for example to blame an Irish Catholic for anything any country in the world that is seen as Christian does – are Christians in this country for example to be lumped together with some of the Christian fundamentalist nuts in the USA? I would hope not.

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:21 PM

    And, for example, are Irish Christians responsible for the USA invasion of Iraq simply because they are also Christian?

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    Mute Foxys van
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:26 PM

    Whatever knuckledragger wrote this must have a “mammy didn’t love me ” issue I doubt it will go any further

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    Mute Eoin Myers
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:00 PM

    A$$holes. What fcuking difference does it make. We’ve been under the rule of the catholic cult for generations and nobodies burnt out those raping bastards. People are just brainwashed by the media into believing Muslims are bad when in reality they have probably never had a run in with someone who is a Muslim. Of course there can be bad Muslims, but that goes for all religions, all have their extremists. Attacking men women and children is sick regardless of their belief system. I say again, a$$holes.

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    Mute TheLoneHurler
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:40 PM

    Catholic = Bad; Muslim = Good. The media has done a good job on you bhoy.

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    Mute Scarr
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:43 PM

    The letter is abhorrent, and was no doubt written by a less than astute individual – but your ‘sure, there are bad apples in every religion’ line doesn’t wash. Islam is over-represented in terms of extremism and it’s followers too quick to resort to violence. Just ask a certain Danish cartoonist or theo Van Gogh.

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:52 PM

    ..or Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Van Gogh’s friend. Better still read her first book.

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:58 PM

    I dont think they are all extremists but i do know that a lot of them are intolerant and unable to integrate.

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:48 PM

    Karen, why should they integrate? How mean-spirited is it that you would deny people being themselves just to please you? Do Irish people who live in other countries have to ‘integrate’??? Should they hide the Barry’s Tea in a secret place and perhaps sound-proof the house so nobody can hear them playing the Chieftains? Be scared to speak English at home when living in France??? What a horrible thought that they could have these kinds of comments directed agains them for ‘not integrating’. What difference does it make to me if my neighbour speaks a different language at home or what they do? God, we are a curtain-twitching race!

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    Mute Margaret Cantwell
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:03 PM

    @ Miss Filed: The difference is that when the Irish go to live in other countries, they mostly find it a pleasure to learn the language, customs and fit into that society, while making new friends there. The same can not always be said of the fundamentalist Islamists. And your calling Karen mean-spirited is totally wrong because she is telling the truth. Because making no attempt to integrate into the culture of the country you are living in, is caused either by fear, dislike, or even hatred and distrust of that country. That is why is is very wrong.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:59 PM

    Look around you. If you went to a country where the people were suspicious of you – would you feel welcome enough to integrate?

    Granted – the ones who have problems with Muslims are in the minority, just like extremist Muslims are in the minority.. But it doesn’t stop many people here tarring every Muslim with the same brush – how do you know the Muslims don’t feel as though there’s a lot of people who would rather they weren’t here? They are just as capable of getting the wrong impression of us as we are of them..

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:14 PM

    Shanti, extremist Muslims aren’t a minority, all Muslims who follow their holy book are extremists. It’s an extremist religion. It’s about as barmy as you can get. In the UK apparently 50% of “Muslims” don’t practice their religion. That’s what’s keeping a lid on it.

    It’s the ones who do are the problem. Furthermore, the Muslim religion isn’t just a religion, it’s also a political movement. A movement opposed to democracy.

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:28 PM

    Irish people DO keep their own culture and speak their own language when abroad. Do you have a problem with Italian ghettos in the US? What about China Town? Have you an issue with the Chinese in this country who keep themselves to themselves and speak Chinese? Or is it just Muslims? Why do you think not ‘integrating’ is caused by fear, dislike or hatred and distrust? Could it not just be that they speak their own language as we would if living in another country (eg the Irish living in Spain?) and follow their own customs because that is what they like and it harms absolutely nobody???!!! Or perhaps they are lazy, like my brother who lived for five years in Spain and never learned much Spanish and cooked and ate Irish food. He is not sinister at all I have to tell you!!! I just think it is weird when what other people do is none of our business when it is not hurting us and really what difference does it make to me if people next door speak another language to one another and have a different religion??? That is what I mean by mean-spirited. So can you tell me WHY people must integrate and be like us – what is the reason???

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:28 PM

    Well, if one follows Judaism or Christianity to the letter it’s not going to be pretty either.
    The majority if Jews and Christians don’t follow their religion to the letter – much like how the moderate Muslims aren’t following theirs.. It’s not exclusive to Islam, the Torah and NT preach extremism too, anything that claims it is the absolute truth is going to breed extremism to be fair.

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    Mute Jackie Jones
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:37 PM

    i totally agree with you Karen. They don’t integrate. I see it first hand, I live in the UK and where I am has a big Muslim community where none of them from what I see want to know anything outside their own culture. What would happen if I was to walk into a mosque with my hair showing arms or legs showing? I can tell you I would be arrested!! Which did happen just to prove a point!!! When in Rome do as the Romans do. I don’t believe in threats or violence but I would not like to see Ireland turning into what I see over here every day. And I’m not here out of choice I would be home in Ireland if I could get work.

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:50 PM

    No, you wouldn’t be arrested. Someone might offer you a head covering if you intended to stay. Same as in a Sikh temple. It’s a simple courtesy to observe the norms of a place you might visit.

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    Mute Jackie Jones
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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:09 PM

    And if I refused to cover my hair? This is what I am on about, this is why there is such divide!!! We have to change our ways to accommodate ye but ye cannot change ye re ways to accommodate us!!!

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    Mute Jho Harris
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:21 AM

    Fatima, might I suggest you read the last line of your comment to yourself and if you are involved in The Muslim community you spread the word you have preached therein?

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 6:48 AM

    Jho, the original comment was about visiting a place of worship and refusing to observe the etiquettes. No one is asking Jackie to change her personal beliefs or visible habits, merely to tolerate different ones.

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    Mute Jackie Jones
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    Nov 26th 2013, 7:35 AM

    i do tolerate different religions and views. If I went to a Muslim country yes I would adhere to them country s ways out of respect. But I’m in my own country so why would I have to go along with ridiculous and out dated ways and views????

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 10:21 AM

    Jackie, I must have missed something. Who is forcing you to do what?

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    Mute Jackie Jones
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    Nov 26th 2013, 10:31 AM

    Now your changing the subject!!! Read what’s been said!!!

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 10:33 AM

    Margaret, there are dangers in integration. The Jews of Germany were the most integrated in Europe. Much good it did them. Bosnian Muslims were only distinguishable by their surnames. Native Americans who “integrated” effectively disappeared. I would direct your attention to India, the most diverse country I know. Multi-cultural, multi-faith, multi-lingual, multi-ethnic. People co-exist there, not by integrating but, by practising mutual respect. Prejudice and bigotry exist, but mostly do not impinge on daily life. I’m sure you can find instances where best practice is not maintained, it’s a big place, but largely tolerant. Ireland does not have the same culture it had 25 or 50 or 100 years ago. This is not wholly because of Muslim immigration. It is also not a bad thing. A stagnant culture is a dying one. Over the course of human history, many societies have come and gone. The more open ones are always the most successful. Things change. Take the good, leave the bad, move on.

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 10:36 AM

    Ok Jackie. If you think you’ll be arrested for not covering in a mosque it’s easily tested. Find a convenient one and pay a visit. Bring biscuits, they’ll have tea.

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    Mute Jackie Jones
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    Nov 26th 2013, 10:41 AM

    It has happened in the UK!!! But then again it was called a race attack which in fact it was not. It was a point proving exercise, and the point was proven!!!

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 26th 2013, 11:11 AM

    Fatima, the Muslim creed is not “culture”. It’s the result of the systematic brainwashing of generations of defenceless children. Because of improved education and access to all knowledge via books and the web religion is fast disappearing in the democratic west. The same will happen in Muslim countries where the teaching of Evolution is often banned as are many books. When all religions are consigned to the dustbin of history there will be one world wide human culture and peace will reign. The sooner the better.

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 11:14 AM

    Jackie, what attack? Where? When? Please be specific.

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    Mute Jackie Jones
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    Nov 26th 2013, 11:33 AM

    And again Read what I said!!!!!

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:22 PM

    Jackie, I’ve read your comments again but I still can’t find out where this incident happened. I certainly have never heard of such a thing and would be genuinely interested to know the details. Please supply some.

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:32 PM

    I mean where in the UK

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    Mute Jackie Jones
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:39 PM

    Either Burnley or Blackburn!!!

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:49 PM

    Google says Burnley has 10 mosques and Blackburn 47. Doesn’t really narrow it down. Do you remember where you first saw the story?

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    Mute Jackie Jones
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:58 PM

    No not off hand.

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:20 PM

    Ok, probably wiser not to report incidents as factual if you can’t back them up. These things can develop a life of their own, and rumour is the enemy of reason. Never mind, if you do remember you can post it here. Anyway, I still say you should visit a mosque. There is no substitute for direct experience. Take a friend if you’re nervous, though we seldom bite! One of our local ones has a joint summer fete sort of thing with the nearby Baptist church. Great food and bouncy castles!

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:35 PM

    Jho, do you mean that I’m a visitor? It’s true that my family did not always live in Ireland. Difficult to be precise, but I think we came over around the end of the last ice age. Am I still a “blow-in”?

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    Mute Jackie Jones
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    Nov 26th 2013, 4:25 PM
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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 4:39 PM

    Jackie, sorry I don’t get it. What is this link for?

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    Mute Jho Harris
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    Nov 26th 2013, 5:42 PM

    Fatima, I never mentioned blow in, you can twist my words as you wish and be as smart as you like I don’t mind. I have no say in who stays and who goes in this country, if I did there would a lot of Irish politicians living abroad.

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    Mute Jackie Jones
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    Nov 26th 2013, 6:23 PM

    She s good at that!!!!

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 6:31 PM

    Sorry Jho, didn’t mean to cause offence. It’s hard to put a twinkle in your eye into text. For some reason I was remembering Liam Cosgrove at a Fine Gael Ard Fheis years ago. Think he was having a go at Con the Post at the time. God knows what he’d have made of mosque in clonskeagh. Bet he’d have shuck a few hands though if he thought there were votes in it.

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 6:49 PM

    Jackie, what did I do?

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    Mute John Coughlan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:45 PM

    People who support this kind of Sh*t only have air between their ears. This is by far the stupidest piece of crap i’ve read in a while.

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    Mute Foxys van
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:48 PM

    Think that’s bad read some of the comments on the journal

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    Mute Giuseppe
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:39 PM

    Sectarian ?. Racism not so much…

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    Mute Right Wing Steve ©
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:42 PM

    It’s neither sectarian nor racist, it is banal and hatefiled though

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:58 PM

    Bigotry or prejudice – either are a better fit than racism.

    Still though, everyone who read this knows what’s meant.

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    Mute William Grogan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:49 PM

    Islam isn’t a race, it’s a political & religious movement.

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    Mute Giuseppe
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:38 PM

    I agree William, guy has anger towards the religion more so then the race of people. So I’d say sectarian not racism is his issue. Religions a choice not a genetic marker…

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:16 PM

    This is denialism. You guys are downplaying this whole thing to make it more palatable.

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    Mute Giuseppe
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:31 PM

    @Colm
    Explain ?

    We’re making the view of it not being racist tho maybe sectarian or xenophobic. Tho we all agree it’s unwarranted hatred? Of what form tho is the debate ? To understand this is to help us understand what’s wrong and how to fix it….

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:34 PM

    Sorry, I didn’t mean you in particular. I just meant there’s a trend here where people are trying to justify this whole thing.

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    Mute Jeroen Bos
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:41 PM

    Well said Colm!

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    Mute Tom Sullivan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:31 PM

    Nobody is trying to justify it. If anything they are trying to point out that it is obviously the product of a deranged and ill-educated mind.

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    Mute Liam
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:02 PM

    Any chance the person or people who wrote this to come out and say it in public? Narrow-minded idiots is what they are, but to call this racist is wrong, it certainly is hatred and bigotry but Muslims are not a race and for the Immigrant Council of Ireland to say that it is racist is cheap opportunism.

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:31 PM

    How is this cheap opportunism? It IS racism as much as any other racism you could name. It’s primarily Arabs that these fascists are aiming their hate at. Anti-arabism is endemic in Europe. But even if it wasn’t arabs, it’s still racism! Race is an arbitrary human concept. We just divide people in these silly ways, whether it’s skin colour or religion or language, if you can stereotype people into a separate group and separate them in your mind, you’ve got a race. That’s all race is.

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    Mute Gamasello Nohto
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:02 PM

    Not all the Arabs are Muslim. Islam, Christianity or any other religion should not be considered as race. Do you consider Protestant-Catholic or Atheist-Cristian/Islam debate as a racist debate? i would consider this as ‘hate’ which is a big problem in any stage of the society.

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:29 PM

    It’s virtually the same phenomenon as racism. You’re born into a group and people treat you badly because of that. It’s how you look and where you come from. People like the EDL or Golden Dawn (and hopefully we’re not getting something similar) will kick the s h i t out of someone because they look like they come from the Islamic world. It’s got nothing to do with how devout the Muslim is.

    They claim it’s because of “Islamism” but that’s just an excuse to try to give legitimacy to a lynch mob.

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    Mute Gamasello Nohto
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:59 PM

    I struggled against ELAM (sub-group of Golden Down) when they were a smaller than now back in the days. A friend of mine was stabbed by those idiots at a multicultural festival. Usually they patrol night times and they beat up foreign looking people especially Filipinos, Turkish Cypriots, Africans, Pakistanis, English, Arabs leftists etc regardless religion. They hate anything not Greek. This is absolute racism and they believe that if the racism is the only way to save Greece and Cyprus, they will follow the rules of racism. For sure being Greek Orthodox is one of the motivation so they don’t like other Christian sects… One of the astonishing thing about Irish people have to say, unlikely other countries which economic crises hit, racism is not strong problem here (so far). I hope i’m right.

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:20 PM

    Fair play to you for struggling against them! And I hope you are right too. I really do, but it appears to be on the rise. Thankfully we have no BNP style party at the moment, but there is a power vacuum and a lot of hateful bigots out there.

    As for whether or not this is racism, the word may be a slight misnomer, but it seems that the majority protesting it’s use are trying to downplay the severity of this hatred because racism is such a hot-button word. They seem to want it to look somehow acceptable.

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    Mute Marc Marcel
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:13 AM

    well France don’t think its racist to ban the head gear, neither do i, so whats the problem here? i think its quite intimidating and they well know it.

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    Mute Jamie McCormack
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:28 PM

    Absolute numbskulls.

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    Mute Carina Clarke
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:40 PM

    Sorry what is your message? I got distracted by your inappropriate use of capital letters, no punctuation, poor grammar and bad spelling. Perhaps your time would be better spent on a quest of self improvement?

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    Mute Dave Murray
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:43 PM

    The writer of this letter is most likely a teenager – of racist stock – who mitched his/her grammar/punctuation classes before dropping out of school and ultimately knuckling down to a full-time internship as a career racist.

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    Mute Dave Murray
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:51 PM

    …when I say this pathetic individual is “racist”, I mean it in the sense that this he/she probably has an intolerance for anyone who isn’t Irish and white-skinned.

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    Mute Jane Travers
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:03 PM

    My thoughts precisely, David. I doubt the author of this letter is older than 14.

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    Mute Richard Curtis
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:20 PM

    Cud be a o’connell street taxi rancour! Ha ha see wat I did!

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:32 PM

    You may be right, but I’m Irish with blue eyes and white skin. I also am Muslim and wear hijab. Should I be worried?

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:33 PM

    Meant for Dave Murray

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    Mute margaret
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    Nov 27th 2013, 7:17 PM

    You actually chose slavery? Because that is what being female in islam means. It means you are worth two thirds of a man. Your husband can take three more wives, if you leave islam, you can be killed, your husband can take your children tomorrow and head for whatever Muslim country he came from and there will be nothing you can do about it. Happens all the time to Irish, European and American women. A living nightmare. You trade western freedoms for eastern second class citizenship. If you freely choose slavery, then I suppose you deserve it.

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:09 PM

    Oh Margaret, so many assumptions , so little time

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    Mute robscanlon
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:21 PM

    and it has a typo. Enough said.

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    Mute EndaMeKnob
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:41 PM

    Ahem! *Coughs*
    Would you like to check your own post for grammatical and typographical errors……and then look up irony in the dictionary.

    *I do not condone the letter*

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    Mute Aunty Simmonite
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:31 PM

    Had it got a Clonskeagh postmark?

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:22 PM

    It sounds exactly like an illiterate Irish person to me I have to say!

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    Mute Johnny
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:31 PM

    I do not agree with the violence.

    But I can’t say I disagree with this letter.

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:49 PM

    I think there’s virtually no difference between those two statements. This whole letter is filled with hatred in every sentence. To support the hatred is to support the people who would commit violence, and in that way I believe it causes violence because the fascists couldn’t do it without an other hundred “nonviolently” supporting them. We have to unite with our Muslim friends against fascism.

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    Mute ciaran clarke
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:41 PM

    This letter is disgusting.threatening to attack children. Sick minded lunatic.
    This letter does point out what is happening in Ireland.
    Some Muslims have complained that the Christian material in our schools and hospitals offends them.
    I know in the UAE religious material deemed offensive to Muslims is illegal.
    If Muslims live here they need to abide by our country’s rules.
    But threatening to attack them is sick

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:54 PM

    There was a Muslim girl in the year below me in secondary school.
    She didn’t last 1 year.
    It was the only all girls secondary school within the next few towns of us, but it was a convent school.

    She was made to pray with everyone else, she was taught religion by a catholic nun. No exceptions were made for her and no tolerance to the fact she was not catholic was shown (same goes for the Protestant girl that started the same year). I knew them both from outside of school – and they hated it because of how they were made to feel.

    When there are no alternative schools to attend, and the catholic schools push their doctrine quite decisively – is that fair?

    We all complain about regimes in the Middle East discriminating against other religions, but by favouring one religion over all others here – are we not doing the same thing?

    And besides the Muslims – what about those who are of any other faith or none – why are they subjected to Catholicism on a daily basis?

    As I said above – based upon the actual content of these religions, each of which effectively states that your belief makes you superior to others – which has led to much torture and bloodshed throughout history, there is much to find offensive about them. Perhaps leave these things to those who care for t

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:56 PM

    Sorry – perhaps leave these things in places that they are appropriate. Eg – faith centres. This is where they belong, and where there is no chance of them offending anybody.

    Until we have accessible non denominational education available to all – it has no place in schools.

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:08 PM

    Because she was in a catholic run school?
    Muslim schools dont allow non Muslims in the schools and state pays for them.
    Muslims dont teach our religion or anyone else’s in their schools,nor do they teach Irish history.
    In our schools they force my kids to learn about Islam.And run through every other religion.The Jewish have been here for decades and they dont teach Judaism.Is that fair?
    So your argument for one poor girl who had to pray in catholic school during catholic religion is nil and void.
    My friend was protestant growing up and another friend of mine were hindu and neither of them were forced to learn anything that was back in the 70,s and 80′s.
    I also worked in a school were Somalian kids who are muslim,weren’t forced to learn Catholicism they painted pictures and read books.Their parents brought them to muslim school on weekend.

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:11 PM

    how does religion offend anyone,these are the people who cause the problems pandering to people who get offended by someone else’s religion.
    I just dont get it how does a faith thats not yours and you dont believe in offend you.Unless you are not convinced your religion or non religion is the right path.
    True faith in something means you dont get offended by someone else’s faith,because it doesn’t insult you or your faith.
    God the pandering so sick of it.

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    Mute ciaran clarke
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:14 PM

    It’s true what Karen is saying.we had a couple of kids in our class who were Protestant and the just coloured pictures and read books during religion.
    The Muslim faith can sometimes segregate their people from integration into our way of life

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:38 PM

    Whoa there Karen! I am not offended by anybody’s religion but I do object to what we have, which is a religious state. About 60% of Irish people in successive polls say they do not want religious schools. Since the Irish Catholic primary curriculum specifically directs schools to bring the religion into EVERY subject, and tells them exactly how to do it, it is fair to say that our publicly-funded education system is discriminatory – against people like me and my child, who has no religious beliefs, and against anybody who does not have Catholic beliefs.

    Your lack of sympathy for any child who is made to feel left out is sad. When you say they force your child to learn about Islam, you are singling out Islam in a very mean-spirited way. Our state Religious Education curriculum gives much greater weight to Christianity than other religions. It also teaches ABOUT other religions and belief systems. I would hate to have an education system where this knowledge is deliberately kept from our children. I would call such a system indoctrination, and we have had enough of that thank you very much. It would all matter less if there were a choice for the increasing number of parents who are not religious, but in most parts of the country (with 95% of our state-funded schools having a Catholic ethos permeating the whole school) there is no choice and Catholicism is forced on us.

    I think we should have moved on from being a religious state in this day and age. The majority of citizens no longer want it. So nobody objects to anybody’s religious beliefs so long as they are not being forced on us – I agree with you there – however a religious education class ABOUT all religions is education, not indoctrination.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:55 PM

    Karen – if you had read my comment, it was the only all girls school in the town or the next few towns over.
    And all the other schools in the locale were catholic too.

    Nearest Protestant schools were several towns away in either direction. Both girls eventually went to one, where they were both happy – that school was far more tolerant of the Muslim girl not being “one of them” funnily enough..

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    Mute margaret
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:00 PM

    The Muslim girl was “made to pray”? By a catholic by nun. Sorry but I think you are engaging in a little fantasy here. How was she “made to pray”. Did the nun use a stick?

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    Mute margaret
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:04 PM

    I think Shanti Had a religion. Something like goddess gaia worship or some such earth mother/ matriarchyology. But that’s ok because it’s not a patriarchal Abrahamic religion. Matriarchy good, patriarchy had.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:12 PM

    The religion itself is what is offensive.

    The followers most frequently only follow the bits they choose to, so they aren’t offensive.

    It’s funny – we see widespread condemnation of the barbaric acts of stoning people – yet this is demanded of Jews and Christians as well as Muslims.
    The destruction of non believers is also in all three, so why shouldn’t I find that offensive?

    Maybe you choose to ignore it, as I am guessing you ignore the rules about wearing trousers, mixed fabrics or a head scarf (after all – women’s hair attracts spirits!!). But they are in there. And that is what I find offensive.

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:20 PM

    Sorry didnt see that part but if she was tolerant wouldnt she want to learn it as people are suggesting i should allow my kids to? And then learn her own at home.
    Weird i found all my friends and the kids i worked with very tolerant of the fact that child and his siblings were muslim.So i guess it was just where you are in school and not because it was catholic school.Woah see what i did there.

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:25 PM

    Woah yourself and go complain about Muslim school not allowing non religious or catholic or Jewish or etc,, in their schools.
    I never had no sympathy for a child. She wasnt left out she was partaking in the class
    God give me a break out of wood work they will come when Catholicism is mentioned. lol
    Good for you and your child have a happy life and good bye

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    Mute margaret
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:44 PM

    I find your ignorance on Christianity yet your willingness to authoritatively pronounce on it, offensive. Christianity calls for stoning and the elimination of unbelievers! That is absolute nonsense. What was it Jesus ( the ultiminate authority on christisnity) say. “Let him, who is without sin, cast the first stone”
    Nowhere does Christianity call fir the elimination of non believers, you’re confusing it with islam.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:11 PM

    Margaret. The non believers were burned and tortured in the name of god so please – don’t try to say that they weren’t.
    The idea of destroying non believers actually comes from the Torah and the idea of the chosen ones – it doesn’t originate in the Koran.

    And I don’t worship Gaia. Thanks for pronouncing my beliefs for me – my beliefs are personal, none of anyone else’s business.

    How did the nun make her pray? Try singling her out in front of the whole class and ordering her to say her Our Father and Hail Mary’s. The girl was humiliated – hence why she didn’t last long there.

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:13 PM

    No Karen, I have nothing against Catholicism. What I do object to is the hypocricy of people living in what is a religious state criticising people of another religion. I challenge the Catholic Church’s domination of our publicly-funded services – I pay my taxes and I am entitled to an education for my child that does not actively discriminate against him or force him to take part in a school with a Catholic ethos that permeates the whole school – as I imagine you would object if you had to have your child in a Muslim school through no choice – not matter how ‘tolerant’ they were of your child’s presence. And since 60% of Irish people do not want religious schools this is not fair. So not anti-Catholic, but anti-unfairness and unwarranted dominance of our publicly-funded and public services.

    I do not agree either with Muslim schools, but that is not the problem in this country. Catholic schools DO discriminate in favour of Catholic children in their entrance criteria. They DO have an ethos that permeates the whole school (unless they and the church are lying about that). It is not OK for children simply to be tolerated and allowed to join in religious instruction classes that are not their beliefs. We should not still have sectarian segregated education, especially not paid for by the public purse.

    If you think that is anti-Catholic, then read it again. If this country truly WAS Christian, we would not have some of the comments on this page – because peace, love, turn the other cheek, love thy neighbour are not much on show here.

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    Mute Josh Nolan
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:26 AM

    You’re right it doesn’t call for the elimination of non-believers in Islam – In fact the Qu’ran specifically forbids killing (Including the act of one soldier killing another in a war).

    Yet the fact remains that people find ways around what the bible actually says or what the Qu’ran actually says – Find excuses for discrimination, call it “Defending their culture” or something like that. At the end of the day it just ends up giving people one more excuse to discriminate against each other.

    (However, I also think that people would find reasons to discriminate against each other with or without religion, race or national identity.)

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    Mute Yuet Ngor Rappard
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    Nov 29th 2013, 12:10 PM

    Colm, like hell we do, unite with our Muslim friends against fascism, get real!!!!! In Europe they call it, “Islamic Fascism”!!!!! Please read more about the real Islam , wise up, educate yourself about this evil cult. Go the the following website: http://www.barenakedislam.com or read the website, http://www.shariaunveiled. Islam DOES NOT FIT IN THE WEST!!!!

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    Mute Terence MacSwiney Field
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:00 PM

    It’s a terrible pity that even a rag like the journal don’t know the difference between “racist” and “sectarianism” before rushing to put up a headline. Being a Muslim is not a matter of belonging to a “Race”, since many westerners are Muslims, but being a Muslim is a matter of belonging to a “religion”, hence it is sectarian.

    While I can’t and don’t condone the content of the alleged letter, the warning to all of us is stark, in that it does highlight the growing ‘influence’ of the Muslim community in what is still fundamentally a Christian country. If the Muslim communities throughout the eastern world were as accepting of Christians, rather than the continuous murder of them solely because of their faith, then perhaps the Muslims may have grounds for complaint against such sentiments as contained in this letter. Christianity is under attack once again, and it is the responsibility of Christians to defend it in whatever manner it takes. It is up to the Muslims to decide how they wish to deal with it – and one can only hope that it will be peaceful, through mutual respect and understanding.

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:14 PM

    See, this is the problem. Every single time a person here comments “this is not racism!” they sooner or later express views of hatred towards muslims. I can’t help but feel they’re trying to downplay how wrong it is to send threatening letters to people.

    This is a warning of an increase in far-right hatred. The countries you’re talking about are for the most part not democratic, thus your problem should be with those regimes and not with the individuals. The vast majority of muslims are like the majority of human beings in that they are kind people who deserve love and respect.

    And as for Ireland being a christian country… it’s just a piece of land, my friend. It’s just an Island. Just because a majority of christians live here does not mean Christians have the right to rule supreme over anyone else. Muslims have as much of a right to come here and live as we do.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:08 PM

    Has it occurred to you that the Muslims who live here might not agree with the way that their dictators do things?
    It’s not like here, they don’t just get to vote out a royal family or a supreme leader..

    How many of the Muslims living here at present support the way religious minorities are treated in predominantly Muslim countries? Have you asked any?

    Why does a nation have to be religious at all? Why can’t it just be a nation where everyone is free to believe what they want provided they accept that not everyone will believe the same thing – and that this is ok. They are just beliefs, and ultimately if you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and I believe in a giant Fish god – it is nobody else’s business except our own. There’s no need for either of us to get defensive if we both refrain from trying to convert each other..

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    Mute Jeroen Bos
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:39 PM

    “it is the responsibility of Christians to defend it in whatever manner it takes” so you do condone the violence in the letter? Is to attack men women and children in schools what you mean with “whatever manner it takes…”?

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    Mute John Ward
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    Nov 26th 2013, 8:52 AM

    ALL religions are a system of stupid ideas for stupid people.

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    Mute Mark Sweetman
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:45 PM

    Cowards…. they didn’t even have the balls to sign it!

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    Mute Belly Up
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:22 PM

    What has the irish anti war movement got to do with this? Are they like the anti fascist movement in the UK whereby their real goal is protecting the interests of Muslim extremists? I do not condone the letter by the way. It’s clearly written by some bonehead.

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:34 PM

    P.S Journal can you change the title to threatening letter sent to mosque? As racism it is not!

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:54 PM

    Why are you guys such pedants all of a sudden?

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:18 PM

    Which guys would that be?

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:21 PM

    See the many comments screaming “this is not racism”. Half of them then go on to justify discrimination against muslims.

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    Mute Jeroen Bos
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:29 PM

    Karen why are you so offended by the word racism. Is this merely to hide the fact that you actually agree with (maybe not the violence) the sentiments in this letter?

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:42 PM

    Because it is not racism is a threat over religious views so therefore bigotry.
    Go witch hunt somewhere else jeroen.Or sorry should i call you Nodin.

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:45 PM

    I dont see anyone justifying discrimination against Muslims.I see people having a conversations on different things including the fact no one i seen write here condoned it.
    However people who allow it be called racism are pandering, then i suggest,people are racist to me including Muslims as they removed our religious statues from our hospitals and moan about the holy statues in view of their eyes.
    You get my point?

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    Mute Jeroen Bos
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:01 PM

    Karen, you keep mentioning the removal of religious statues from irish hospitals. I wasn’t aware of this story so I Google it. This is an article I came across http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/bishop-saddened-by-hse-removal-of-religious-statues-114106.html. Is this the case you are talking about?

    I might have read the wrong article and maybe you can provide me with the right one but in the above article it is nowhere mentioned that Muslims were the ones that removed these statues.

    Oh an btw. What does Nodin mean?

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:15 PM

    Never said it was any article and i do believe in that one it was hinted later just that although never officially said.
    No this is from a few nurses i know have told me exactly this,no reason for them to lie.They told me that muslim doctors have complained saying they are offensive so therefore have been removed.
    I only noticed they were gone when i went to visit someone in hospital after that.Also the mangers arent allowed to go up apparently.
    Oh Nodin is a joke never mind,it not insulting or anything.
    Got to go now been fun. :)

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:02 PM

    I’m Irish born, raised a Catholic, and I am feel our own situation as a religious state is hidden from our eyes – we are so used to it we just do’t notice how bad it is – when I go into hospitals, schools, community halls, and other public and publicly-funded community services, I am always disappointed to be confronted by religious statues and iconography. Is there a public service in this country that is not run by the Catholic church? It is really out of order in this day and age, especially when they are funded by state money.

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:16 PM

    Are you offended by muslims wearing burkas and bent over on paths or in parks praying?
    I am offended by your discrimination and lack of respect for my faith.
    Hypocrite a bit eh.Going on about tolerance yet you arent tolerant of the faith that majority of country follow lol

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    Mute Sadhbh Mc Quillan
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    Nov 26th 2013, 9:14 PM

    Karen, I believe the essential difference is that these statues etc. are in hospitals that the taxpayer pays for, whether the tax payer is Christian, Muslim, or Atheist. I don’t buy a Muslim lady’s burqa (or more likely, hijaab) nor do I pay for their prayer mats. They do, and as such, are entitled to do what they wish.

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    Mute Evert Bopp
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:46 PM

    LOL, that letter is so full of cliches that I would almost expect it to be a hoax by muslim extremists to get the public opinion on their side.

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    Mute Marc Marcel
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:18 AM

    you’re close, very. imo. old tactics don’t work lads. better learn english first.

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    Mute David Vaughan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:02 PM

    It might be a socially degenerate, can’t type, won’t sign it idiot that wrote the letter – But you don’t have to be too smart to pull a trigger, or youtube up how to make things that go bang.

    I’m only hoping they either literally shoots themself in the foot, or makes a Darwin award winning mistake and remove themselves from the gene pool.

    Nice to know he regards all non-christian, was not here before 1959 folks as non-Irish. That’s me on the hit list as well then!

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    Mute Liam carlin
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:57 PM

    Maybe whoever wrote this drivel should possibly take a class or two before he attacks the Muslim children. I think a couple of hours in fourth class should suffice.

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    Mute Daisy Chainsaw
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:03 PM

    What is it with bigots and pisspoor spelling?

    Must have taken him/her ages to type all that out with just their knuckles.

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    Mute Justin O'Sullivan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:54 PM

    Brilliant a great laugh , made my day that . How could anybody take that seriously hahahaha

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    Mute Silent Majority
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:47 PM

    Elaine Fogarty perhaps?

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:35 PM

    There was no mention of genocide against Europeans so I don’t think so!

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    Mute Hanneke Vermolen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:12 PM

    First name I thought of too?

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    Mute Hassan Ould Moctar
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:11 PM

    True, Muslims didn’t live through 1916 or the Famine but somehow I doubt that whoever wrote this letter did either. There was actually a pretty big relief effort for Irish peasants during the Famine sent by the *Islamic* Ottoman Empire, but I wouldn’t really expect someone who has such a warped view of history and reality to take such facts into consideration.

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:15 PM

    You had me till you said Irish peasant.So Irish were peasants? Irish starving native of the country is what you should have said.Wouldnt like me to call your people peasants because hungry and downtrodden would you?

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:53 PM

    Karen, there is nothing offensive in what he said – yes, we were peasants. Do you know what peasants means? “A peasant is a member of a traditional class of farmers, either laborers or owners of small farms, especially in the Middle Ages under feudalism.” That is what our people were relegated to when we were under British rule in this country. It doesn’t sound as if Hassan meant any offence at all – and peasant is a real word with a real meaning, as well as sometimes being used as a pejorative.

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    Mute Damien Harpur
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    Nov 28th 2013, 8:56 PM

    Dont worry all the Pakis are peasants and thats the way its sayin! GO USA!

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    Mute AICS (Steve Tracey)
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:16 PM

    Hopefully they’ll be as ineffectual as the EDL in UK. An example of EDL intelligence
    “They’re building too many f****** mosques here, how would they like it if we went and built a load in Mecca.”
    This is the level of intelligence to be found in these goons the likelihood of their scoring an own goal with an explosive device or shooting themselves in the foot where their brains are located is extremely high.

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    Mute Carcu Sidub
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:53 PM

    Pity the people who wrote this can’t be tried under Sharia law.

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    Mute Tony Canning
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:06 PM

    Wouldn’t wish that on anybody.

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:55 PM

    Pity people like you exist that condone sharia law.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:35 PM

    Pity some people missed the joke..

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    Mute Jim Flavin
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:33 PM

    The people or persons who wrote this letter should be tracked down -.
    This is a hate letter against another religion – and threatens physical violence against men women and children – with no apparent reason other that they are Muslim .
    If a Muslim had written this about Catholics – there would be a severe reaction – not the slightly dismissive one we see here .
    He / They go on to say Muslims have no place in Ireland – why not .??

    Have the illegal Irish any right to be in USA .
    And who are the true Irish – the ones that agree with him/them ??.
    This is creating a n atmosphere where hatred is accepted .

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    Mute Pj Maguire Kavanagh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:51 PM

    The part about how Muslims should go back to live under Muslim rule in their country makes absolutely no sense, they are clearly coming in here to escape the unfair ruling and persecution in their country and as for the part of the offence it causes, It really does show the ignorance of the narrow minded person that wrote this. Not to mention that they are clearly incapable of using capitals in the right context showing that it was written by some uneducated fool. Hopefully the anonymous coward is prosecuted to the extent of the law for this. Its sickening to see such racism in society these days.

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:09 PM

    Ok dont condone threatening people with death or anything because of their religion nor because of fact they are offended by our holy statues and government pandered to them and removed them from hospitals which gave people peace and comfort.
    But i wont pander this shi** of they come here to escape sharia law.That is the most rubbish statement i ever heard. Sorry to be blunt.Wherever muslims( of certain countries) go they bring that with them.They use excuse of escaping it and people like you pander to them.They do not respect you nor your views or your religion or non religion.So naive.Wake up.
    I hope this person isnt serious.And i hope Irish people do not allow what happened in UK,France and other such countries to happen here.
    If it did happen here and they try to make certain areas no go for white irish like they have done in countries i mentioned above.I wont be stopping and will be walking through and will wear what i want whether they like it or not.
    But lets hope this country doesnt allow that to happen.
    Again who ever wrote that letter should be ashamed of themselves never threaten humans because of religion especially when they havent done anything to threaten us as of yet.

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:40 PM

    P.s again to be sure people understand i do not mean all muslims and decide on people by how they are in life not by faith.

    It takes them to integrate aswell, and as i heard on radio today and being debated.If they keep to themselves carry on like remove that i dont like it and offends me.Again i am not condoning or supporting this letter.But people like this will become more and think more like this person who wrote the letter.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:45 PM

    I for one am glad that the religious imagery has been removed. I find it offensive.
    I find it offensive because I find the Abrahamic religions offensive – be that Judaism, Christianity or Islam. The scriptures themselves are offensive and frequently used to excuse abhorrent behaviour.

    By all means – believe whatever you want, go to whatever church, synagogue or mosque you wish – but keep your religious imagery there. Why should I have to see images of a man being crucified or Mary everywhere I go?
    I don’t see images of Ganesh at the side of the road – or Buddha, and Ireland is not a theocracy, so why should any one religion be pushed in my face when I do not welcome it?

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:53 PM

    Show how intolerant you are right away.Those religious statues offended you? How did they jump off the wall and force you to change your religion give you nightmares make people say mean things to you? lol
    Does the burka and hijab offend you or hari krishna dancing around town singing in your face offend you?

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:55 PM

    p.s any of my family are ever in hospital we will be bringing in our Mary and Jesus and cross by the bed.What will you do if its by your bed?

    The statues were harmless and shows only intolerance on your part and others especially muslims etc.. who demand us to be tolerant. PIPE AND SMOKE :)

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    Mute Eric Barnes
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:33 PM

    You don’t see pictures of Ganesh because you’re in Ireland.. A predominantly Catholic country .

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:15 PM

    Way to totally misunderstand me.
    Why should a religion be given special place in a republic?
    Why should there be statues and crucifixes everywhere?
    I’m not telling anyone that they can’t celebrate their faith, or suggesting that churches etc should be closed – but does it have to be shoved in everyone’s faces all of the time?

    There may be people ticking catholic on the census but there are substantially less actually attending mass (which is a requirement to be a catholic). Is Ireland really that catholic or is the nation still suffering from Stockholm syndrome?

    People should be free to believe what they want – but they should also realise that their beliefs are no better or worse than anyone else’s – they are beliefs, they are personal – and have no place being forced upon those who do not share it..

    Ask a person to keep their religion to themselves and suddenly it’s ignorant.. Ask them to stop shoving it in your face – apparently that’s ignorant too..

    It’s not ignorant to expect those who do not share your beliefs to just accept that your beliefs can and will be pushed upon them at every given opportunity – no?

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:32 PM

    I didnt call you ignorant,I called you intolerant.There is a difference.What is the problem with as you call them fairytale statues in hospitals that give people peace and comfort when they are ill? If they mean nothing to you or to non religious or Muslims,Then why do they and you complain.How is it shoving it in your face or anyone elses for that matter.
    They dont speak,they just sit there and look pretty.
    Again you are avoiding what i asked. If it is nothing to you why is it bothering you? Does it bother you that women are walking around with burkas and hijabs on them? Or Hari Krishna strolling around singing in your face?
    I ask you this because when muslims come to Ireland and demand our religious statues removed in a country where they have been since god knows how long(pardon the pun :) ) then why should Irish accept any of the above they want mosques and burkas etc..
    I again didnt call you ignorant i am saying you are intolerant.
    I ask again what would you say if i had my religious items over my bed near you in next bed?

    It seems to me the only people in this country who are having to be tolerant is the Irish Catholics.
    Even our Jewish community who have been here for decades never had problem with the statues and showed respect for the fact they were in hospitals.
    Hospitals are a sanctuary for healing and while you dont like it for some it actually gives them strenght,however you show intolerance to our religion just because statues sitting in the hall ways as you walk by.

    How do you feel about muslims praying in public parks and on street on paths in work? I am interested.Are you ok with that?

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:46 PM

    Hey Eric i think the Ganesh and Buddha statues are excellent. I would love to see the in hospitals to.
    I am Catholic and wouldnt offend me that they were there as doesnt cause me any pain.

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    Mute Jeroen Bos
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:59 PM

    Karen, Maybe muslims pray in parks and on the street because they too need peace and comfort just like you and your statues.

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    Mute Karen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:22 PM

    I was asking someone a question.I never said anything else.So why are you answering a question i asked and wasnt asked to make a point.

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:40 PM

    I’m sorry.. A crucifix with a guy hanging off it is pretty?

    And you’re right – you did say intolerant rather than ignorant – but did I mention fairy tales?

    I find the scriptures of these religions to be hugely intolerant of anyone who does not obey that belief so why should I tolerate them?
    After all, the Torah says that Gentiles and Goyim are inferior and to be “utterly destroyed”. The NT preaches that non believers should be burned (and they were). And the Koran has it’s issues with infidels..

    I take no issue with the believers themselves, they are free to believe as they wish provided they don’t expect me to agree. But I do take great issue with the scriptures that their belief is based upon. And I do not see why it should be given a special place anywhere besides in their own houses of worship or believers homes.

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    Mute Margaret Cantwell
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:30 PM

    @ Shanti Om: I have to agree with what you said about ” a crucifix with a guy hanging off it is pretty?”. As a child, it gave me the creeps, and sometimes nightmares too!

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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:49 PM

    What were to happen if any other belief than muslim/islam was preached in one of them countries??The preacher would be executed in the streets thats what and you have the cheek to complain about a few statues here and there

    If You don’t like it there is flights operating out of Dublin on the daily

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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:37 PM

    Really Daniel? I take it you haven’t seen the instances of Muslims protecting Christians? Do you realise that the Bible is also an Islamic holy book, they just consider Jesus to be a prophet like Moses and Mohammed rather than the direct son of god (and to be fair – Jesus never says that god is his father specifically, he refers to god as everyone’s father).

    And by the way – why should I have to leave my country? A country which was pagan up until the Christians got here.

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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:21 PM

    Ah was only winding you up.I don’t believe in religion anyway its all bullsh!t

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    Mute Tom Sullivan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:48 PM

    Eric, Ireland is not a predominantly Catholic country. It is at best a nominally Catholic country.

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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:50 PM

    “If You don’t like it there is flights operating out of Dublin on the daily”

    What a totally ignorant statement. Goes nicely with the wife-beater t-shirt in that pic of yours.

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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:56 PM

    To be fair Tom, he did say he was only winding me up – which I have him a thumb up for.. It is a very ignorant thing to say when it is meant, but in this case I’ll take Daniel at his word!

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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:57 PM

    *gave damn autocorrect..

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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:23 AM

    @Daniel I take that back :)

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 26th 2013, 4:40 PM

    who invited you to Ireland ? In india there are hundreds of images of Ganesh , Hanuman ..etc ,,you should have stayed there .

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 26th 2013, 4:44 PM

    clearly your knowledge of the sacrifice Christ made on the cross is deficient . Get educated before shooting your mouth off .

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 26th 2013, 4:54 PM

    Jesus never said God is His father ? Jesus called God “Abba ” the Jews picked up stones to kill Him .Your ignorance is shocking ….hey, do me a favour – go read our scriptures .

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 26th 2013, 10:47 PM

    Wow..
    Assumption, the mother of all f**k ups..
    1. I’m Irish, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
    2. I’m not Hindu – I merely mention these things as figureheads of other religions – I mentioned Buddha too, funny how you didn’t assume I was Buddhist.. Which I’m not either – but by all means, assume away.. It just makes you look bad.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:48 AM

    The message of the “cross” escaped you – sadly . God help you .

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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:54 AM

    your Irish ? So we have IGNORANT IRISH TOO ! You have snippets of information about religions – a pretentious all knowing theologian .LOL .

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    Nov 27th 2013, 11:23 AM

    Only going on what I’ve had quoted at me by Christians.. Sorry if that offends you.

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 11:48 AM

    90 % of Christians have never read the Bible ..so never go by what Christians tell you . Christianity is difficult to understand – I suggest you learn it – a good start would be .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phVakkGSle0

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    Nov 27th 2013, 11:59 AM

    More assumptions..
    When I said “quoted”, I meant I have had scripture quoted at me by Christian fundamentalists that was pretty clear on what the bible says about being a non believer..
    These guys had most definitely read the bible, they were able to quote it quite easily..

    Are you honestly trying to claim that the bible has never been used as justification for the slaughter of those who did not agree?

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 11:59 AM

    religious imagery – you live in country where the majority are Christians . Tough luck you don’t like the crucifix or mother Mary .”Om Shanti Om” is one of the Vedic Mantra which has got religious and philosophical meaning. Om is the symbol of the Hindu cult – as a Christian – I FIND YOUR NAME OFFENSIVE – did I object ? No .

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 12:02 PM

    Can you show me a single verse where Christ justifies killing in His name ?

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 27th 2013, 12:08 PM

    One small one..
    Luke 19: 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 12:10 PM

    I live in a democratic republic – not a theocracy.
    And both Om and Shanti are not restricted to Hinduism.. They both symbolise peace.

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 2:59 PM

    you are most likely of Hindu decent -maybe born in Ireland with a hugh CHIP ON YOUR Shoulder. Shut up and put up with it – you will not change anything .

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 3:09 PM

    ha ha – cut and paste – All Bible illiterates quote this verse .- Luke 19 :27 is a parable of Ten Minas – if you had read the whole verse you would have known that . Now go and do your tantric mantra – OM Shanti and once again – if you were EDUCATED YOU WOULD BE DANGEROUS .

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    Nov 27th 2013, 6:27 PM

    Wow..
    So let’s look at the facts here..
    You don’t know me, you are basing every insult and attack on the username I chose when setting up my twitter account, I have told you the reasons I chose that name and yet still you reckon you know my genealogy, l said I was Irish, my entire family – back at least as far as the famine, are Irish.
    I don’t even know any Hindus, see what I mean about assumptions being troublesome? It’s a pity you didn’t have the sense to learn from that, you seem intent upon ensuring that you look a fool, and yet you try to call me ignorant?
    Do you know what an ad hominem argument is Sebastian? Do you realise it’s the lowest form of debate and portrays a very low level of intellect? Do you realise it’s against the comments policy rules?

    Play the ball – not the player, or else you may find yourself banned.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 6:32 PM

    Re: education..
    Be careful when pointing your finger – you always have 3 more pointing back at you..
    (That’s a translation of a Haitian Voodoo saying, does this mean I am a witch doctor? Does this mean you will burn me at the stake for practicing sorcery? Please tell me Seb, I have no idea about my own mind or life, I need you to tell me who I am!!)

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 7:32 PM

    ” Ireland is not a theocracy, so why should any one religion be pushed in my face when I do not welcome it?

    True – who is pushing what in your face ? I live in the same country and as yet no one has pushed Christianity in my face but wait till Islam gets a foot hold ( Islamic population doubles every ten years ) – You will be reduced to a DHIMMI with SHARIA forced down your throat

    .Quran 9:5 Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them… but if they repent and accept Islam, then leave their way free?

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    Nov 27th 2013, 7:37 PM

    I know what ad hominem argument is . Next time chose your name with care so as not to misled your readers . Cheers .

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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:13 PM

    Well let’s see.. When I was growing up there were no non denominational schools in my area. I had Christianity – specifically Catholicism, shoved in my face every day for 14 years.
    In order to be permitted in the local school, I had to be baptised. In school I was not informed that there was an option to abstain from communion or confirmation – so I am a forced card carrying member of the Catholic Church. And they have the arrogance to count me among them when I do not believe a word of their bible.
    If I fall pregnant, my health will be diminished dramatically unless I travel, were it 20 years ago – I would have been denied the right to sleep with my partner because of the dangers pregnancy poses – why? Because the church is against the wastage of sperm and so contraception and abortion are forbidden.
    My cousin is denied the right to marry the one they love, because of that religion.
    And everywhere I go, there’s statues and crosses – which regardless of it’s meaning, is still grotesque. By all means have it in a church, I will not be choosing to go inside one, but out in public institutions – which are paid for out of mine and other citizens (regardless of their beliefs) taxes, they are inappropriate. Our constitution demands we all be treated equally, yet in practice, Catholics are given precedence in their belief system – this is not equal by any stretch of the imagination.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:20 PM

    And if you know what an ad hominem argument is, why use them?
    You essentially are lowering yourself to playground arguments, if you are an adult you really should realise that these types of argument only serve to make you look bad. Is this the impression you wish to give of yourself on a public forum? If you are using your true given name you should perhaps be mindful of this, you never know who is reading these sites and it could come back to haunt you.

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:26 PM

    you are an injured atheist . I understand . Removing God has solved your problem – or has it made it worst ? Think about that – No hope and no justice .

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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:35 PM

    I am being honest – I have nothing to be ashamed of. Take it or lump it .

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 27th 2013, 9:51 PM

    Ok, two things.
    A. I am not an atheist either.
    B. If you are, as you say, a doctor – then I sincerely hope that you do not treat patients – my reasons are two fold,
    1. You are quite assumptive, a doctor should be more scientifically minded, as in “what if” rather than assuming – incorrect diagnosis / assumptive diagnosis can be fatal.
    2. Your spelling, I hate bringing it up, but there are many medications which have very similar names. Given your problems with spelling here I would be quite worried if you had to write me a prescription..

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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:04 PM

    worry about yourself – you are a bitter person , I am happy in myself and have achieved all i need to .
    I too was brought up a Catholic – “THANK GOD “,says I . My eye sight is poor – the key board is a problem – but my brains are fine .No danger to my patients but thanks for the warning Papa . I will recommend you to the IMC fitness to practice board – so you can keep an eye on me.

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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:37 PM

    More assumptions.. Now I am bitter, remember what I said to you about pointing your finger?
    Or as your bible puts it – judge not lest ye be judged yourself..
    Upthread you were talking about how 90% of Christians haven’t read the bible yet here you are proving you didn’t even manage to grasp the concept of the fluffy lovey dovey stuff that everyone is supposed to believe Jesus was all about..

    And one question.. It has me a little puzzled, I stated that pregnancy would greatly diminish my health, yet you decide to refer to me as “Papa”, a name associated with men.. Why is this?

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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:49 PM

    I stated that pregnancy would greatly diminish my health,

    Sorry – it should be Mamma , Since when has the Catholic church taken over the role of an Obstetrician ? So now it;s all clear – do you hate Christianity because you could not have an abortion ? or am I wrong again ?

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    Nov 28th 2013, 1:09 AM

    You asked how Christianity has been forced upon me, it was one of many examples I gave.
    The reason I referred back to it was due to the bizarre leap you made into me being male despite having read my comment.. Now, if I were a man capable of pregnancy, that would be rather, miraculous, don’t you think?

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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:17 AM

    Indeed ! Have you any more theological puzzles ? Are you starting a movement against the church and trying to lead others away? It’s all been tried before ( French Revolution , Russia and China) and failed ! Man cannot live without God .
    In the mean time – get help ( I suggest you read Prof. John Lennox and Dr. Alistair McGrath ).
    - live a blessed life. Your anger is destroying you .

    Make peace with your Maker .

    Learn from yesterday. Live for today. Hope for tomorrow.
    -Albert Einstein

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    Nov 28th 2013, 10:44 AM

    What on earth are you talking about?
    You have chosen to follow one religion, you have decided that you know something no living human can possibly know the answer to – and you are steadfast in your convictions, as is your right.
    For you to expect others to agree is supremely arrogant. You know nothing about me bar what you have assumed, yet you still wish to pass judgement and assume and accuse..
    This is one of the things that bugs me most about Christianity. In fact – about most organised religions.. They all claim it’s about being a better person, but the followers rarely are.. The religion insists that belief is the only key to “eternal life” so you feel the need to go around pushing your ideals upon anyone and everyone else – regardless of how utterly hypocritical that makes you.

    You should take a long hard look in the mirror Sebastian. Everything you have accused me of – is apparent in your comments.
    I never said anything about hate. I said I was offended by having a religion that I have no reason to agree with forced upon me, the person talking about hate is the person displaying the most.
    The person who is proving just how extremism gets started – how it’s easy to rationalise away the need to be a decent human being for the sake of spreading their ideal..

    I would hope this would give you food for thought, but it’s quite apparent you aren’t considering anything – you are just ploughing on ahead with assumption and judgement.. Good luck with that.

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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:54 AM

    For you to expect others to agree is supremely arrogant. ! !

    Can’t remember where I said I expect you to agree with me – “frankly , I don’t give a damn what you believe in and what you don’t “.
    I came on this thread because you were wrongly quoting my scriptures ( you sounded ignorant and I rightly corrected you ) – it is you who is arrogant – not me . Take a mirror to yourself and to your soul . I’am done with you .Bye .

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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:11 PM

    If this idiot is as inaccurate with his violence as he is with his stupid threats I’d be more worried about the people living near the mosque than the people in it.

    This fool isn’t to be taken seriously.

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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:25 PM

    If this idiot is as inaccurate with his violence as he is with his stupid threats ”
    – How do u know his threats are inaccurate ??

    This fool isn’t to be taken seriously.”

    why not . Imagine if it had been the reverse – and a Muslim writer threatened Catholics – there would be uproar – and not the dismissive tone is so many of the posts .

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    Mute Michael Pickering
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:34 PM

    Just a factual addition, Muslim countries donated huge sums of money to Ireland during the famine, namely the Sultan of Turkey. Secondly, judging by the spelling in this it was most likely written by a child with nothing better to do. The one thing I do agree with is that I dont want Ireland to end up like the UK and France, in as much as I don’t want religious riots on the streets and parties like the BNP running in elections. It’s embarrassing that something like this can even be taken seriously.

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    Mute Diarmaid Twomey
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:04 PM

    Oh God, that letter is like something a 5 year old would write! It is worrying to see some degenerates are now willing to target children though!

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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:13 PM

    While I appreciate the intelligent, well observed, meaningful, well thought out arguments here, I for one would like to throw a definitely naive, probably ill considered truism out there; being nasty to anybody is just plain wrong. So there.

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:33 PM

    Exactly how I feel Pat – choose hatred or love – simple as that…

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    Mute Craig Caulfield
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:02 PM

    Leave the far right fascist knuckle dragging beliefs to the English please. Irish people complaining about different peoples & cultures living here is laughable & how dare they use Micheal Collins in that sort of context.

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:39 PM

    I bet you one of the British far-right mobs is behind it. Or else we’ve taken to imitating our former masters.

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:51 PM

    Indeed, Irish people have lived in every corner of the planet, no doubt carrying on their own lifestyles, wearing their own clothes, and pursuing their own beliefs. Why do people have to integrate and change their beliefs when they are living in a different country? Irish people don’t do that when they live in other countries and why should they?

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    Mute Mick McDonagh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:53 PM

    We’ll probably hear the ‘true Irish’ before we see them what with all the shouting they do.

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    Mute Dylan Prendergast
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    Nov 25th 2013, 4:38 PM

    The person who wrote this has awful spelling !! And how dare they use the image of Micky Collins !!

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    Mute Kate A. Rose
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:03 PM

    Unsigned. Cowards.

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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:24 PM

    Angola has decided to ban Islam from it’s country as well as destroy all mosques. Angola is the only country that does not consider Islam a religion. Instead, according to these news reports, it looks at it as a perversion and a cult. Lately there has been so much bloodshed against christians, Angola, being 95% christian, has decided that there is no room for Islam and what they consider the tyranny it brings. http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread984325/pg1

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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:47 PM

    Are you serious? Islam is banned in Angola? Is this a wind up?

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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:59 PM

    Well this story is sort of true. Islam is sort of banned in Angola as are most relgions and sects. In Angola to be recognized as a religion you must have at least 100K adult members to register and be allowed to build churches or schools. Right now only 85 denominations meet this standard. Islam is about 10K adults short to meet that standard. However, in recent years Muslim, Christian and local sects have building churches anyway and been allowed to practice but, now they are all being cracked down on. This seems to happen pretty often. Most Angolans 47% practice local relgions with 38% being being Catholic and only 15% being protestants. So along with Islam, Judaism and most Protestant (evangalicals in particular) religions are also banned. So what you have in Angola is a never ending tug of war between freedom or religion and the ability of the Goverment to control those religions. By keeping the number allowed low it makes it easier for the Gov to monitor and if need be shut down relgions who may say or do things that the Angolan Gov does not like.

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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:41 PM

    The only thing he’s killing is the English language,his writing is dreadful.

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    Mute Zaki Alfaraj
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    Nov 26th 2013, 10:44 AM

    I’m a Saudi national and my daughter is studying medicine at RCSI in Dublin. From the first moment we arrived here we felt home. We traveled around the world but never seen such kind and courteous people as the case here. We truly admire the compassion and welcoming of the Irish people, and such letter won’t change our perception.

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    Mute toubini
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:44 PM

    Overwhelming majority of Muslims are not extremists of any sort, they’re normal decent people who go about their lives. We need to stop with the fear-mongering:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3RtdDZgcBY

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    Mute margaret
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:56 PM

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htmif

    If you think that thorn yiou better read this

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    Mute FREE STEPHEN MURNEY
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:49 PM

    They used to serve gorgeous lunches in the Mosque in Clonskeagh and quite cheap too

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    Mute Miss Filed
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:07 PM

    It’s gas this tiny group of idiots purporting to speak on behalf of the Irish population, when clearly they do not. The ironic thing is that racist people like that usually label Muslim people as violent, uncivilised and intolerant – when that in fact is what this group of racist idiots are!!! There has not been a single violent Islam-related incident in this country, but these people are showing that the violence, coercion and hatred are all on their side… They have done themselves no favour.

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    Mute Sadhbh Mc Quillan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:08 PM

    Is this really happening?

    Personally, I have been in school (and now college) with Muslim children from the age of four. I recently started a job and one of the first people I made friends with was a lovely Muslim man. My best friend in primary school was a Muslim girl. I went to her house and she went to mine. I went to her religious ceremony celebrations and she came to mine. I have met many Muslims through the years and have never seen any problems with integration.

    Irish Law simply doesn’t permit Sharia Law. If you believe someone is doing something against the law, report it to the Gardaí, don’t attack a whole religious group simply because a minority support illegal practices. Would you condemn all Christians because of the Westboro Baptist Church?

    Also, I don’t understand how being Irish and being a Muslim are mutually exclusive? What about Irish babies born here and raised and Muslims? What about Irish converts to Islam?

    My family have been Irish for as far back as we can trace. We were here for the famine, 1916, and all that jazz. Frank Teeling, an important figure in Irish republicanism at the time, was my great grand-uncle, so presumably I fit the letter writer’s ideals for a true Irish person?

    Well, I can say on behalf of ALL my immediate and extended family that this despicable person simply does not represent us or our views.

    .

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    Mute colin
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:51 PM

    Was in the toilet in the arrivals section in Dublin airport (before clearing customs) yesterday and read on the toilet door “ireland is ruined because of the blacks….. All blacks out of Ireland now”…… Welcome to Ireland I guess. Is this kind of stuff what passes for a bit of crack now a days? Are these people actually that racist/biggoted or are they just doing it cause they think it’s funny or are just trying to get a rise from people?

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    Mute Sadhbh Mc Quillan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:12 PM

    I saw a “Show Multiculturalism the Red Card” sticker on a lamp post in Whitehall yesterday. Absolutely sickened me! There was the web address of Nationalist Ireland at the bottom, and from reading up on them, they actually seem like a pretty serious, horrible group.

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    Mute Paul Keenan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:35 PM

    As nonsensical as this letter appears there is a danger someone could get ideas from it.
    It will also no doubt be great fodder for the night talk show hosts like Boylan et al.

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    Mute Niall Boylan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:48 PM

    Paul its called news and debate and thanks for once again showing your clear obsession with the show!
    Is it fodder for the Journal and you adding to the fodder. You really need to rethink your hate campaign against the show as it is getting boring.

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    Mute EndaMeKnob
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:53 PM

    You love it Niall. Take it like a pop star.

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    Mute Paul Keenan
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:45 PM

    Turned out I was right!
    Always interesting to to see your reaction when someone points out truths you don’t like to hear :)

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    Mute Niall Boylan
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    Nov 26th 2013, 2:36 AM

    Thanks for tuning in and keeping up with the news.

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    Mute David Fitzgerald
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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:16 PM

    Give it time and you will all see the effects of Islam Religion on Ireland, By all means come live work enjoy our country but don’t try and change the laws of the land, I came home for a holiday awhile ago was a bit taken back at these guys handing out leaflets about Islam why if I wanted to learn I would look it up, As for Shatter kiss my Irish ass you shake hands with the Devil Obama who has killed many people in the name of freedom sorry boyo. I have many friends that are Muslim that is there belief but as a hole Islam is not for Ireland time is going to tell you that. So at the end of the day the first time you see in school that if you don’t learn or want to know Islam your school kids are branded Racists the I told you so comes to mind. More wars have been started over religion and Islam and the most two is Islam and Christian and there still at it. So if you think I am Racist Let see anyone just person go and open up a Christian church in any of these countries and practice it openly and try and make your point and see mmmmmm ah no you would be stoned shot in Jail for upsetting Mohamad Do not be so welcoming to a Religion that see’s all other Religion as dirty. If you go to Saudi let any man or any women walk down the street wearing a cross I don’t think so but yet you want to welcome this to Ireland mmmmmmmmmm As for that letter I agree find the guy who wrote it and hit him a slap bit of a coward for not putting his name to it I don’t agree with it but I understand why it was wrote but that is mine and mine alone opinion and I will never condone any form of violence from any side.

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    Mute Margaret Cantwell
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:17 PM

    http://youtu.be/SgKMI1wV0ps Full length documentary by Stacy Dooley entitled “My Hometown Fanatics”, set in her town of Luton, U.K.

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    Mute Fatima Mukadam
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    Nov 26th 2013, 5:13 PM

    Margaret, I actually know some people in Luton and yes they are concerned about extremists. And all the people I know there are Muslim. Where does that get us?

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    Mute Kebabshop Portarlington
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:59 PM

    As an Ex-Taxi Driver from Dublin also assuming that the comment at the end is definitely from a Taxi driver or taxi owner … I am appalled at this statement by an Idiot who claims that Muslims must go back to their own country .. as the shop name suggests i work with these wonderful people and find them nothing but honourable and just in every manner of life ,, The Muslim faith has approximately 2.2 billion people who choose to be part of this faith ,,, in the case of the owner here his kids are Irish born and bread ,,,

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    Mute Josh Nolan
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:13 AM

    Michael Collins died trying to liberate this country from colonial oppression and allow people to practice the religion and language of their choice, and now some nameless bigot wants to use his face to intimidate people. Some people could do damn well with a history lesson.

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    Mute Steve M
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:28 PM

    Let’s hope the writers of those letters are like most of us on this site, all talk no action.

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    Mute Daniel D Waters
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    Nov 25th 2013, 11:35 PM

    Any small group will be peaceful but once they get bigger watch out. Before you know it over time they will take over and your children will be having there heads chopped off.

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    Mute Geoff Dolan
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    Nov 26th 2013, 3:33 AM

    Guess what?!? There are nice Muslims and not so nice Muslims. There are Muslims who’ll fly planes into buildings, and decapitate innocent people. There are also Muslims who work in various militaries throughout the world, whose jiob it is to go after the not so nice ones I just mentioned. There are aslo Muslim s who are bus drivers, taxi drivers, nurses, doctors, tv presenters, retail store proprietors, and lots of other jobs. Amazing isn’t it? What’s even more amazing is that when I see Faisal Islam presenting Channel 4 News, I tend not to get flustered and start foaming at the mouth about an imminent Islamist take over of Britain! I reckon he’s definately one of the nice ones. I tell you now, if I see him appear on tv with a beard and headdress, pointing his index finger in the air and yelling about ‘Amreeka and the Juice’, I’ll eat my own hat, so I will. However, I don’t think that’ll happen…

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    Mute Juan Venegas
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    Nov 26th 2013, 9:08 AM

    As As a Naturalized Irish Citizen I call myself proud to be Irish, This country gave me the opportunity to develop my skills and provide the family environment fort my children to grow, and I know what I am about to say will get all red marks, but I must say it as I can’t be labelled as racist because I was born in Venezuela from Spanish blood, South Americans are not racist as we, white people are a minority.

    I moved to Ireland from The Netherlands where I lived 5 years, I meet my wife there, she’s Polish. I saw how The Dutch society had to deal with the headache of a ghetto community as in many European countries, Moroccan, Turkish and other nationals from Muslim countries makes up the majority of the monitory population, while in Ireland we have the Polish and Eastern Europeans, the continent have Muslims as their predominant migrant group.

    Let me make it clear that I have absolutely no problem with someone practicing their religion, the constitution is very clear and it gives every citizen freedom of religion, but it also states the Irish values of society. I remember when I made an oath to the state to become an Irish citizen I had to swear to respect the Ireland’s democratic values and rule of law. Which means Shariah and many other things that extremist Muslim wants to impose are not compatible with the Irish constitution or our society.

    I came to Ireland and became Irish because I love Ireland as it is, I knew the “terms and conditions” and I accepted it, all my friends and Irish and I see myself as an Irish man. Nobody held a gun against my head forcing me to come here, I saw migrating to Ireland with a mentality of “my hose, my rules” and you’re dams straight it has to be like this. If I am home sick and if I want to turn Ireland into my birth country, I would be the first one to leave. Why would someone move to a place they don’t like? I am not saying I approve hate mails, but the essence of it must be discussed.

    I didn’t signed up to see my country turn into Shariah land, if I want that I’d move to Saudi Arabia, everyone who wants to adventure into another land should respect the local laws and customs., or are you going to tell me that the Saudis, would let my wife drive and walk alone in the streets, let me have a pint, go to a rock concert and let me wear religious symbols which aren’t Islamic?

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    Mute Marta Elotmani
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    Jan 5th 2015, 1:50 PM

    You still owe Sonicare Solutions Inc $17K for shipping garbage from China. I will not give up till you pay back.

    Marta

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    Mute Edward Carr
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    Nov 25th 2013, 5:24 PM

    Stupid stupid people you can’t defend yourself go get a few beers for yourselfs I’m sure that’s where you spend most of your days.

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:32 PM

    They won’t debate with you. They’ll just give you read thumbs.

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    Mute Jeroen Bos
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:21 PM

    There’s also the opposite Colm.

    I am fuming here behind my keyboard but lost for words for the amount of people here even trying to excuse the letter by obfuscating the threatening content and somehow downplaying this as the act of a lunatic who can’t spell.

    That’s why I resort to green thumbing comments like yours and very few others.

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    Mute Darran Murray
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    Nov 25th 2013, 7:21 PM

    It reads like something a kid wrote, give it a day or two an some teen will be picked stating he wrote it for the craic but meant no harm, he will get a warning and sent on his way. Five minutes later we will be enjoying an article on 10 reasons why daddy is better than chips.

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    Mute Loop De Loop
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:17 PM

    Nail on the head Darren. There’s some D!ckhead 14 year old out there loving all the attention his letter is getting.

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    Mute Colm Ó Súiligh
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    Nov 25th 2013, 6:58 PM

    I thought Nazis were supposed to have excellent grammar?

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    Mute O' Loughlin Ronan
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    Nov 26th 2013, 10:26 AM

    What I have a problem with is muslim claiming streets around the mosque and calling it a muslim area, and in some places applying sharia law to natives that are passing through having a beer or minding there own business, this problem is prevalent in england now, and I would fully condone any action taken, if this were to happen to an irish native, they need to know there place, and it is up to our shaky goverment and police system to ensure the rights of the Irish citizen are protected.. although I do not condone violence, one could understand action being taken if muslim organisations, or “gangs” step out of line, remember our great grandfathers fought a war and lost family and friends for the freedom we have today, not to give it all away..

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    Mute Shanti Om
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    Nov 26th 2013, 10:59 PM

    Isn’t it illegal under Irish law to be drinking in a public place?
    I know I have seen signs up that say drinking in public is an offence, so that’s not Shariah law – it’s Irish law..

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    Mute Stephen Harmon
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    Nov 26th 2013, 8:49 AM

    I hope they see this excerpt from the proclamation of independence. They have obviously never read it and have no idea of the concept of liberty and freedom. You do not represent me or anyone who has not democratically elected you as their representative.

    “The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.”

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    Mute El Mariachi
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:22 AM

    I am a citizen of Ireland and I take offence to ignorant bastards in my country, I will defend this country by any means against hatred, fascism and racist thuggery.
    I am ready as a true son of Erin to use what ever is at my disposal to stem the tide of this unfortunate occurance.

    I will attack any fascist, racist or bigot that attempts to patronize me with their narrow minded shite especially if they do so to my face.
    Bigots have no right to live in a progressive society such as 21st century Ireland, the Irish people do not espouse such bigotry and never will.
    Just because some sad individuals think that they are better than some people they have never spoken for the majority of Irish citizens, all the bigots can do is attempt more shite like this but it will just fall on deaf ears.
    They have never shown any attempt at getting to know these so called terrorists nor have they stayed in school long enough to know that average people are not the cause of racism and bigotry.

    I for one have no problem with people of the Muslim faith living in Ireland and neither should anyone else

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    Mute Damien Harpur
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    Nov 28th 2013, 8:50 PM

    You may be a citizen but it’ll never be your country. Muslims are the facists.

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    Mute Richard Fennelly
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:15 PM

    Bury them up to the neck and stone them

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 26th 2013, 6:16 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMLF9yYVEYo
    be afraid be very afraid .

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    Mute Paul Reed
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:22 PM

    The big question is: why should the Irish be tolerant to a fascist ideology as it is Islam? Why should we care if our symbols, habits, traditions and freedoms will offend muslims??? Do they care about us? Just recent an Muslim said in Limerick that Jesus doesn’t exist and shouldn’t we bring me to justice (Defamation Act 2009) as blasphemous matter? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gorvCM-XgrA They will start a riot if any of us said the Ala doesn’t exist after all… Or are we so afraid of standing up for our culture that we are willing to replace it by other? Just last week in the UK Sheikh Muhammad Al Shareef said that Freedom of religion and freedom of expression are blasphemous and “false ideals. Muslims should not associate with non-Muslims, and Muslims should not send their children to non-Islamic schools. And people who have sex outside of marriage, blasphemers and Muslims who leave the faith should be KILLED, according to some speakers at this weekend’s Islamic Global Peace & Unity (GPU) conference in London. After all in IRELAND the majority (57 percent) of young Irish Muslims (under 26) believe Ireland should become an Islamic State… Are we safe, or are we blind by the media and the concept of being tolerant to stone age cultures? Or Islam is a religion for peace? Really… What this from the mouth of Islam leaders in UK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64V09tTIjR4

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    Mute Minnie Moose
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:26 PM

    Get rid of the céad mile failte signs at the airports….. ! And lock up that crazy person who sent those letters !!!

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    Mute Jer Lonergen
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    Nov 25th 2013, 10:10 PM

    I truly don’t care, I’ve been to Indonesia.

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    Mute Steve O'Connor
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:46 PM

    It’s a disgusting letter written by morons but “porn” ? It’s not porn in any variation of the meaning of the word.

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    Mute Dec Rowe
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:33 PM

    Who’s Will?

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    Mute Dec Rowe
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:34 PM

    Will doesn’t does for me! Will should go home and do his homework!

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    Mute Dec Rowe
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    Nov 25th 2013, 3:35 PM

    Will doesn’t speak for me* :/

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    Mute COOM
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:12 AM

    educate your self about Islam…. see link below.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfKLV6rmLxE

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    Mute Rafal
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:39 PM
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    Mute Dave Syms
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:07 AM

    I hate this sort of thing and the people who do it they are cowards but at least we know they are out there.This was bound to happen we are a very intolerent people unused to having an influx of those who are different from us.
    The people who do this forget how many of our children are strangers in some far off land.
    Dave Syms

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    Mute Tinker Taylor
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    Nov 26th 2013, 1:41 PM

    Sounds like the RIRA have found someone new to hate. Most irish would prefer if fundamentalist Muslims would go back to Saudi but any change in immigration policy must be constitutional

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    Mute Rebecca Ghanem
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    Nov 26th 2013, 11:34 AM

    To the people who wrote this letter I would like to say I do not condemn your letter because it is a letter written with fear in your hearts because you feel threatened by a different way of life, a different view on life. The Muslims too, ( and I so know because I have spent much time with them in the Mosques) have no desire to change you. It is not in their intention to change others. It says in the Qur’an that we are ‘made into tribes and nations in order to know each other’. That means as Muslims there is love and respect to all manner and ways of life.
    The Muslims here in Ireland are often here not through choice but because their countries are war torn. They come for safety and for their children to be safe. They stay together not because they want to control or dominate as a single force but for their consolation. They find refuge in each other. They speak the same language (and I don’t mean just lingual language).
    You too, are acting on fear. You too feel your way of life is being threatened. In the end you both share an awful lot more in common than you really think as you are, as you are both acting on similar premises. The intention behind the Mosque is not to change Ireland, but because a Muslim man seeks to serve the Muslims here in Ireland – that is all.
    We should learn the lessons from our children. Our children hold the true face of God in their hearts as they do not despise because of difference – they love because of similarity. My children are in one of the most beautiful schools I know. There are 80 different nationalities there, all from different backgrounds and they get to know each other for the sake of each other.
    We must be humble in heart and practice what all religions tell us – to love one another and be kind……………..
    Rebecca.

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    Mute Rafal
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:44 PM
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    Mute SANITY
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    Nov 25th 2013, 8:30 PM

    SURPRISING THE DUMB PR8ICK DIDN’T SIGN AND DATE THE LETTER..
    STUPID CAP LOCK WONT TURN OFF …………………..

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    Mute Vimal G
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    Nov 26th 2013, 8:21 PM

    So you don’t want the Muslim here? Then in that case you should ask all the Irish people have have emigrated to Dubai, to come back to Ireland as Dubai is a MUSLIM country!?!

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    Mute Sebastian Anthony Borges
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    Nov 27th 2013, 10:46 AM

    I doubt the Irish people want to build churches in Dubai or spread Christianity there . Most Irish are on temporary permits .

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    Mute Joe Soap
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:02 AM

    They should’ve used spell-check. Illiterate morons.

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    Mute feck'n voters
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    Nov 25th 2013, 9:35 PM

    Irish extremists could not even write bilingually.

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    Mute Zarina Tahir
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    Nov 28th 2013, 12:30 AM

    this idiot has forgoton that eastern muslims sent over a substantial amount of money to help ireland in the great famine. Gosh im muslim i wear hijab im born irish come from irish catholic parents where the hell do i go hhahaa. Im irish and proud to be irish, im sure i know alot more then most irish youth esp my ancestors ni Faoláin clann and ni cinneade clann haa bet they forget every bit of Irish they learnt in primary school , its absolutley sickening they are threatening children this weirdo is one childish prat anyone lays a finger on my kids will most definetley regret it . forget religion and race u start throwing violence around you will feel the wrath of an irish mother !!! im sure every mother will agree with that !!

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    Mute Damien Harpur
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    Nov 28th 2013, 8:47 PM

    Have you got proof that any muslims sent us money? Didnt think so.

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    Mute Anusia Grennell
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    Dec 3rd 2013, 8:29 AM

    You really gave her a chance there with your ‘Didn’t think so’. You haven’t backed up a single one of your statements with proof by the way. From what I’ve read here in the the comments you’re a nasty little man Damien with probably a very small shoe-size. Oh wait, I have no proof that shoe-size has any correlation to the size of your brain but you know what I mean…

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    Mute Iftikhar Ahmad
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    Nov 26th 2013, 10:47 PM

    Islam will grow despite of strong opposition to Muslims in the west. Islam is not any new religion,Islam means to submit your will to one and true Lord,who is the Lord of the Thrones.Who sent Adam,Abraham,Ishmael,Isaac,Joanna,Lot,Joseph,Moses,Jesus and Muhammad( Peace and blessings of God be on them all),The Quran Honours Mary as the women chosen above women of all the nations and their is a chapter dedicated to her in Quran called chapter 19, Mary and Jesus(Peace be on him) was the mightiest messengers of God,he was born miraculously without any male intervention,he healed all the blind and sick by God’s Permission.and no Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus Christ as the messenger of God,and Jesus is coming back to this world,and this is our emaan our faith.Jesus says in the Bible that” on that day many will come to me and say,”Lord Lord have we not done mighty works in thy name,in thy name cast out devils.Jesus says” You evil people depart from me,I never knew you”.

    Islam the faith that was the FIRST to give woman rights, the veil is not to cover for husbands but as a source of empowerment for woman so that they can be treated as an individual rather than a sex item for the male, ask Helen Flanagan about the respect she receives!!! Islam will grow despite of strong opposition to Muslims in the west. Islam is not any new religion, Islam means to submit your will to one and true Lord, who is the Lord of the Thrones. Who sent Adam,Abraham,Ishmael,Isaac,Joanna,Lot,Joseph,Moses,Jesus and Muhammad( Peace and blessings of God be on them all),The Quran Honours Mary as the women chosen above women of all the nations and their is a chapter dedicated to her in Quran called chapter 19, Mary and Jesus(Peace be on him) was the mightiest messengers of God, he was born miraculously without any male intervention, he healed all the blind and sick by God’s Permission. And no Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus Christ as the messenger of God, and Jesus is coming back to this world, and this is our emaan our faith. Jesus says in the Bible that” on that day many will come to me and say, “Lord Lord have we not done mighty works in thy name, in thy name cast out devils.Jesus says” You evil people depart from me, I never knew you”

    A Western Girl understood how Muslim men are dedicated for their families, At least they come home everyday not drunk and do not abuse their wives and children. More and More white women realize the importance of family lives as their childhood will be full of miseries and they don’t know whose their fathers are and they also realize how women are burdened to up bring the children on their handwork, where men only see than as objects of sexual satisfaction. ISLAM is the complete way of life and more and more women will accept Islam as their way of Life and Insha Allah the whole world will turn to Islam and only Islam has the answers for the problems faced by modern women. I urge all the Muslims in the west to call people towards Islam and be generous with the poor and unfortunate. Never sleep until your neighbour is well fed, take care of old, and the concept of old age homes shall vanish from the society and all the old parents shall be taken care of their children.Spread the Word.
    Islam does respect women, I converted to Islam 10 years ago and have never found any aspect to be bad. It is nothing like how Islam is portrayed in the media. I think if they love each other and she is converting because she wants to then that is great. Surely it is better that getting drunk and falling out of nightclubs with different men every weekend. Actually in Islam Covering goes both ways not only for women. By covering, women force men to address their minds not their bodies as we do in the west. As for multiple marriages, did you know that Islam is the only religion to limit the number of wives a man may take down to 4. Whereas in Christianity and Judaism there is no limits to how many wives a man may take, it is only common law that outlawed polygamy, not religion.
    IA
    London School of Islamics Trust
    http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

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    Mute Jackie Jones
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    Nov 27th 2013, 12:52 AM

    So what your saying in regards to women covering them selves is that in ye re culture ye cannot look at a woman without thinking about sex? It says a lot about ye re male community a woman should always have respect. So it explains why up north you have so many muslim men grooming young girls for prostitution by giving them drugs alcohol etc? Is that because they are all white girls and they don’t cover up!!! Do them poor girls deserve that? Covering up is another form of oppression!! Ireland has had its own troubles with religion in the past, the church no longer rules so why would we want it to happen again with another religion??

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    Mute Jackie Jones
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    Nov 27th 2013, 2:13 AM

    Oh my god!!! I just checked your Facebook!!! Are you for real?? People like you have absolutely no place in the real world!!! You should crawl back under the stone that you came from!!! Your a disgrace to any race!!!! Or religion!!!

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    Mute Harry Hotspur™
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    Nov 26th 2013, 12:46 AM

    ” I know you’ve been awful busy with the racism an all, father.”

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    Mute Anusia Grennell
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    Dec 3rd 2013, 8:03 AM
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