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Updated 12.55pm
THE DÁIL WILL tonight debate a motion which calls on the government to ‘burn the bondholders’ by ‘destroying’ the €25 billion in sovereign bonds that were issued as a replacement for the promissory note earlier this year.
A motion, signed by many of the Technical Group and three independent TDs, calls on the coalition to lobby the European Central Bank (ECB) to allow the State to “destroy” the bonds issued as part of the deal to abolish the promissory note earlier year.
Speaking at Leinster House today, one of the TDs supporting the motion, Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan, said: “When the banks were making a fortune, anyone who suggested that the money should go to the people of Ireland was put down as some sort of left-wing radical. But when they lost all their money, apparently we had to take all that debt.”
In February, the government dramatically liquidated the former Anglo Irish Bank, and scrapped the promissory note arrangement – which required it to pay back €3.06 billion every March for the next decade as result of guarantees made in respect Anglo – replacing it with long-term bond structure.
As part of this, the Central Bank of Ireland (CBI) issued €25 billion in sovereign bonds.
Explaining the deal, the Taoiseach said: “In effect, we have replaced a short-term, high interest rate overdraft that had to be paid down quickly through more expensive borrowings, with long-term, cheap, interest-only loans.”
The Technical Group now wants the government to lobby the ECB to allow the CBI to ‘destroy’ those €25 million bonds, as well as the €3.06 billion that was paid as part of the old promissory note arrangement back in March 2012.
The motion comes on foot of work that some independent TDs have been doing with the Ballyhea Says No organisation, a group which has been marching once-a-week for the past two years against what it says is the ‘European Central Bank-enforced extortion of tens of billions from the Irish people’.
Flangan added: “We believe that the independent TDs in Dáil Eireann are the political embodiment of what Ballyhea are doing.”
The motion, being debated tonight for 90 minutes, also calls for any and all interest payments currently being made on these bonds to be stopped.
Another deputy supporting the bill, Catherine Murphy, estimated that she and her colleagues have received around 100,000 emails supporting this cause in the last week.
The motion has the support of Technical Group members Joan Collins, Flanagan, Murphy, Mick Wallace, Shane Ross, Tom Fleming, Joe Higgins, Clare Daly, John Halligan, Seamus Healy, Richard Boyd Barrett, Stephen Donnelly, Finian McGrath, Maureen O’Sullivan, Mattie McGrath, and Thomas Pringle.
In addition the motion is also signed by the former Labour TDs Patrick Nulty and Tommy Broughan and the former Fine Gael TD and banking expert Peter Mathews who said Ireland has been saddled with “odious debt”.
Sinn Féin has declared its intention to support the motion. However, the government will almost certainly oppose the motion and ensure that it does not pass when a vote is held tomorrow night.
Separately, the High Court has today ruled against the United Left TD Joan Collins who challenged the constitutionality of the promissory note arrangement.
Collins argued that the arrangement was not in line with the Constitution as it was not explicitly approved by the Dáil. However a three judge panel of the High Court has ruled against her, RTÉ reports.
First published 6.30am
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We were attacked my financial terrorists in 2008. So much of this debt has already been socialised, heaped onto the banks of normal work-a-day people. This move, at least, is a small positive step. Stand by to hear Labour tell us how ‘unrealistic’ it is.
Well done to the Technical Group for at least raising it.
+1. Looking forward to hearing how the government spins this when it gets binned. Disgraceful and wholly immoral.
The whole promissory note arrangement is a crime against the Irish people plan and simple!
Why the hell should we and our kids pay for the gambling debts of rich who took bets on Anglo Irish Bank, (Govt ministers included) – The Govt refuses to properly investigate the obvious criminality that went on in Anglo even after the Anglo Tapes were revealed.
The whole arrangement stinks of corruption at the highest levels and places in Ireland in a very poor light in terms of the rule law and order.
Every day this continues the Govt insults the population by saying we must do this to appease the markets (controlled by a minority) so that confidence returns? What about our trust in law and order..the basis of democracy?? (we are the majority)
Enda & Minister Noonan I’d like to ask you – Just how many more Irish lives are you prepared to sacrifice for this endeavor?
How many more families must be evicted from there homes?
How many more families must be ripped apart by immigration?
How many more cancer patients must suffer cut backs?
How many more special needs kids must have support withdrawn?
How much more deep will you stick the knife into the body and rip apart society to appease the rich and powerful few that you’ve sacrificed the nation to?
Do you not have apathy for your fellow man or are you both devoid of feeling?
Are we dealing with sociopaths in power?
I am a bond holder but I actually agree with this burning. I have no wish to push generations of Irish into bondage for my short term gain. I would prefer to invest my increasingly worthless money in things which created opportunity for Irish people. How I do that without having a bank steal the benefit or a goverent ripping it off in tax is a problem.
that is a great comment on the real truth which is happening in our country but i am afraid our political classes have hijacked the media in this country for a very long time and there seems to be no let up with the propaganda.look at joan collins legal proceedings against the promissory note thrown out by a political party appointed judge today just goes to show you are legal system is broken as well.
And by lowering our national debt, making it more sustainable it would make us more attractive to the markets.
The money saved could be directed towards job creation, which roumer has it is this government’s top priority.
No it won’t. It would be counted as a default and the markets would run a mile from us. Look, I’m not an advocate for the government or the bailout etc. But if we do happen to burn the bondholders while the state owns the debt then we will need another bailout package as the markets will not lend to us again (or at least at rates lower than what we might get from the IMF/Troika)
Patricia is a bond holder.
Patrick your so wrong in so many ways
The markets? If we’re to have faith in ‘the markets’ then surly the banks would have gone bust?
Yes Padraig the banks would have gone bust followed quite quickly by pretty much every small to medium sized enterprise in this country. Other consequences would have been not being able to import oil, pay for most public services, losing well over 100 billion in savings, not being able to pay for capital expenditure. This would have been the consequence of the banks being allowed go bust. Anyone that says different is living in Alice and Wonderland. And people like you would be the first to criticise the govt for not saving the banks, etc etc.
Youreek, you forget the “ATMs won’t be filled” line…
Patrick ..then we just avail of the famous ESM which we were all sold in last years Referendum!?!?!!
So now your point is??
YouNeek,
Utter guff. You seem to be under the deluded notion that the banks were paying for Ireland’s oil imports and public expenditure.
All that was necessary was to guarantee deposits up to 100k as the government did. The losses (liabilities – assets) of the banks would then be borne by the speculative investors, from the shareholders who lose everything right up to the senior bondholders and large depositors suffering the least. The state would then take the banking infrastructure (branches, IT network etc) into public democratic ownership and operate the banking utility for the benefit of society as whole. Individuals and small to medium business would still have their bank accounts under the nationalised banking system and business continue as normal without the €100 billion and counting of odious banking debt which has been heaped on our shoulders.
At coddler, that is complete made up nonsense you have posted. You are a bullshit artist, get off the stage as those views are highly dangerous and disingenuous. If people want to really know what happens when banks collapse, refer to a real life example, Argentina where it happened. Or Iceland for that matter, debt never goes away except when it is paid off or mutually agreed write offs. But unlike Argentina and Iceland we would be in an even more precarious position as we don’t have our own currency not allowed instigate credit controls. Another thing, importing anything requires cash, no cash no imports. How long do you think this country would have as anyone with any accrued savings or funds send it abroad. Not surprised at the level of total delusion shown here by you and others. You actually believe in pie in the sky.
At coddler, one more thing regarding your solution, apart from the obvious physical obstacles to your “solution”. There is the problem of the law preventing anything like you suggest happening. You would have to completely override national and international laws, it would be revolutionary in a Stalinist fashion. Maybe that’s what you want but if would end up not just in civil anarchy but war.
Just to put it in perspective,
The Irish state spends €150,000,000 on cancer treating drugs every year.
The Irish state spends €150,000,000 on Anglo bonds EVERY TWO WEEKS!
We mustn’t upset the “markets” but at the same time refuse to approve new drugs which could help Irish people because we can’t afford them.
Listening to newstalk on the drive in?
The government will reject it were the not saying when they wanted to get into power that they would burn the bond holders. And 90 mins on this topic is far to short for something it will take us 90 years to pay back. Ps ring you local TD now and demand ayes vote
Everyone else suffered so why did the bondholders get away so lightly??
Quite simple Maria most of the bond holders are politicans .. Why else would they be lying there ass off to get voted in and then do a complete turn around . It’s white collar crime at its best lies based in top of lies .. There’s no true leaders in this country only lying thieves . Shame on them . 6 yrs later no one held accountable . Only the tax payer
The bondholders are not politicians. That is a silly suggestions. They are top European banks and fund managers.
*Tumbleweed* NOONERS! Dr.Debt Mr.Bondholder. Check your facts and get back to me debt slave minion.
I believe that they are mostly German Pensioners, We are borrowing money off Germany to pay back money to their pensioners who gambled and lost ! Not Our Debt !
Isnt Merkel one of those pensioners,I bet she is rubbing her hands with glee.
I would love to know how many of them are TAPP’s. (Tax Avoiding Plastic Paddies) that get the red carpet treatment when they show up to throw a few sheckles at a pet project every so often.
If this was 300 hundred years ago, that headline would take on a totally different meaning
hm. now there’s an idea … ;-)
Five years too late .
Headline translation
“‘Not our debt’ (It’s the taxpayers debt, F**k ‘em): Dáil to debate (Government TD’s to lap up pints in Dail bar before waddling into the Dail and telling the opposition that they are just wasting their breath, F**k them as well) to burning the bondholders’ tonight and tomorrow.
@Ibhar. Yes they are sociopaths. No different from the filth that allegedly broke into the house in Tipperary the other night. That’s the problem with this country. Sociopaths are given free rein at all levels of society and compensated accordingly, whether with gilt edged pensions, immunity from prosecution for white collar crime or derisory sentencing for aggravated burglary, attempted murder etc.
Jose, spot on. It’s a pity the public aren’t made aware of sociopaths in society especially around election time. Politics worldwide is full of them.
Id love to build a gallows just outside the dail. Everyone that votes against burning the bond holders get in line. Traitors to the nation
i have some spare timber and a bucket of 4 inch nails , if you need a hand
Everyone should email, call and direct their local TD to vote yes to burn the bond holders. They are there as your representative.
Party TD’s represent their party and nothing else. Unfortunately.
The time for asking nicely and ‘lobbying’ is over. As the 2 year blanket bank guarantee was close to expiring during the summer of 2010, the ECB forced the Irish government into full repayment of all bank bondholders from senior secured right down to junior unsecured under threat of withdrawal of liquidity funding from the Irish banks. The ECB exceeded its mandate in this and a legal case needs to be taken to the European Court of Justice in relation to this blackmail of a sovereign state. The ECB can make amends to Ireland by reimbursing us to the value of the illegitimate debt and interest it imposed on us.
Noonan is a bond holder, and God only knows who else in the Dail is. They will be looking out for themselves not the Irish tax payer.
i’m trying to understand this , so some of the people that has the right to vote on this, are the ones who benefits from a no vote ,with there own interests at heart ? is this right ?
i’m not a betting man but i’m off down to paddy powers on this one, its a sure thing ,
So Is the fact that AIB don’t have a banking licence true
FG – not a single red cent will we pay to the banks. Ahem.
LAB – it’s labour’s way or Frankfurt’s way. Ahem.
Great work by the Ballyhea group and others!
Join us all at the Dail on Wednesday at 6pm and show support for Ballyhea. Let the Government see you have had enough.
If you stand for nothing you will fall for anything
john.perry@oireachtas.ie
Covers Sligo/Leitrim/West Cavan/South West Donegal. Don’t be shy now ensure he knows how you feel about the bondholders
Another question needs to be asked: Do the government have the courage to take on the bond holders as they said they would. I think we all know the answer to that !!!
The question that needs asked and answered is why 2 successive governments have been eager to act illegally to protect Anglo bond holders. The prom. Notes was an illegal mid night rush job. Then we had the IRBC mid Night fiasco to legalize them days before they were being put before the Supreme Court. Had Anglo been allowed to fold then the bond holders would have had to chase this money themselves. That would have opened up the entire dirty dealing inside Anglo. Is this why both FF and FG/lab kept it within house illegally????
Those central bank bonds they want rid of are saving us a bloody fortune compared to the penal interest rates on the promissory notes.
I know nobody here wants to acknowledge that fact but it’s actually true.
Ian,
It’s not our debt. If the interest rate was zero, it would still be unacceptable.
Really misleading headline again. It’s not a vote to burn bondholders. It’s a vote to ask the government to lobby the ECB to do that. I.e.to do something the government have already tried and been told by the ECB and the EU where to go. Even the less extreme solution of detaching bank from sovereign debt has been rejected by the EU.
And if they do vote against burning them,You lot will sit back and vote ff lab fg all over again.
Shut up with this moaning and articles about bond holders bankers and government,the majority of Irish will bend over as usual for it.Enjoy while you lot sc8rew the rest of us up against the wall.Never got a loan or gained anything out of the celtic liar and yet i am fcking paying for it.Thanks voters thanks so much.
Hi all please see my email to TD’S asking them to support this motion. http://techanalsys.blogspot.ie/2013/11/my-email-to-local-tds-asking-for-their.html?m=1
Also Ballyhea group will be outside the dail please go an support them between 6 and 10pm tonight and tomorrow night. They have been matching for 2 years. Please give them maybe 8 hours of ur time over next 2 days. Also our kids will read about this period years from now. Please don’t find yourself in a position where they ask why we didn’t do anything! !!
Hi Jason, its only tomorrow night outside the Dail the Ballyhea group will be there for the vote, 6 till 10, hopefully we will get a good crowd, Put some pressure of the government, so far they have had a free ride,
I’m going to keep giving the thumbs up till these odious debts are written off.
They could easily pass this and burn remaining debt but they won’t because Kenny and Gilmore are beholden to Europe. It’s Germany that rules Europe now – Ireland is merely a province of the German and French European superstate. German banks will get their money back and Ireland will be shackled in debt slavery for generations.
They will debate the arse out of it but in the end we will still be saddled with the debt. Nothing will change because those in power don’t want it any other way. The rich get richer and the poor get stomped on. It’s the FF, FG, LAB legacy.
John we can start taking the power back. The Gov are only too happy to hear you say things like “there is nothing we can do” there is plenty we can do start by coming to support the motion and the Ballyhea group outside the dail tomorrow evening!
I love the smell of napalm in the morning
The government will do what’s right Enda has always done best by us and this is no different
burn the people instead
That’s a great idea but then how would our quisling puppet government glean the funds necessary to pay their European masters?
To the extent that we improve our debt to Gdp ratio, financial markets will be more likely to lend to us. The wildcard is how markets will repond to an outright default. Another consideration is how many of the bondholders are part of the irish financial system. Im all for not paying the debt but there are serious political and economic consequences for not doing so, and we have to be prepared to accept that. Dignity is worth a lot more, and Ireland could be the ‘threat’ of a ‘bad’ example by standing up to financial power. Other countries could follow. Im all for that.
Me too. It would have to be well planned and then executed the right way. Including the change of currency and thus gaining independence on the ECB. I believe people of Ireland could succeed in this. But they would have to elect the right leaders. With this current lot, there is no hope.
The whole system needs to be changed. Political parties are corporations- the only interest they have is self-serving. Political parties should be abolished, TD wages slashed to a reasonable level and individuals should only be elected to positions when the people decide it- not the political party – if we got rid of political parties then we wouldn’t have this problem. Right/Left Political and ideological organizations with their own cult-like status only serve to obscure the nations’ issues. Elected Individuals should put their nation before their self-interest (nationalist in the sense that they are answerable to the best interests of the nation- not their ideology). The Political party system is simply out-moded and hasn’t worked. Time for an overhaul. Won’t hold my breath though…
Will be at the Dail to-morrow at 6pm to give my support. the whole thing is sickening!
Wish people would stop constantly re-debating the 2008 crash, when it’s all done and behind us and nothing can be changed. What we ought to be more concerned about is that our govt, like most in Europe-America, have not done anything to make a repeat of it less likely, in fact lots of the legislation passed, particularly in Ireland, has assumed there will be future bailouts instead of trying to prevent them, and Barack Obamas financial regulation is so riddled with loopholes it’s laughable, with his JOBS ACT being styled ”an invitation to fraud” by the media.
Whatever the case can be that we were blackmailed into having no choice but to do bailouts in 08, there is no excuse for the failure to try to avoid future ones 5-6 years down the line.
We ought to stop fighting the last war and worry about preventing the next one, break up too big to fail banks, prevent them re-emerging in the first place, ban speculation on basic commodities, have more aggressive lending criteria and caps and at the very least control (they’re not always bad contrary to the hype) derivatives and other dangerous financial instruments.
Would ya look at the list of clown supporting this- too funny and not a brain between them
Yeah I agree Kenneth the list of TD’s just following the party whip and not engaging in any independent thinking is depressing and crazy considering the amount of money we pay them….
Very popular idea but realistically can you burn bond holders just ahead of returning to the markets. Good luck with that one.
Can anyone point me to a country that has been “shut out of the markets” once they defaulted?
Never believed that what I said would be popular but these bonds were issued last February – if you burn those bond holders why would anyone buy in a fresh issue less than a year later.
Bad idea.
anyone know if we will be able to watch this on tinternet n where?
have your say