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ESB Group of Unions general secretary Brendan Ogle arriving at ESB HQ this afternoon. Sam Boal/Photocall Ireland

'You have brought this industrial relations crisis' - ESB unions blame bosses

Unions have said that they will serve notice of industrial action from tomorrow which could lead to strike action from 16 December.

UNIONS AT ESB have put the blame for the pension dispute at the company squarely on management as both sides met in Dublin today.

In a statement of their position directed at management, the ESB Group of Unions say that the current chief executive is not living up to the commitments made by his predecessor to “not, in any way, dilute ESB’s commitment to the pension scheme”.

“You, the most senior and highly paid management in ESB, have brought this once well managed company to an unprecedented industrial relations crisis,” the ESB GoU pointedly say.

Unions have said that they will serve notice of industrial action from tomorrow which could lead to strike action from 16 December.

The dispute centres on a 2010 pension agreement which unions say has been breached to put a staff at a greater risk of losing out if there is a shortfall. The unions say there is a €1.6 billion deficit in the scheme.

The ESB GoU issued a directed attack on three primary executives within the ESB saying that they “have hidden away from accountability and scrutiny”.

The unions have also said that Government ministers who have been speaking about the dispute are “just wrong” in their view that the pension scheme is “on track”. They cite ministers Joan Burton, Leo Varadkar, Pat Rabbittee and Taoiseach Enda Kenny who have made similar assurances about the health of the pension scheme.

They say tha the Government are “the effective owners of ESB and that if they believe that there is “no risk” to the scheme than the company should have no problem in altering the terms the fund so that the company carries the risk.

Doing so they say would “resolve this dispute before notice of action is even issued”.

Read: ESB employees and management in talks to resolve pensions row >

Read: ESB union will serve notice of industrial action on Friday >

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120 Comments
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    Mute Pat Kelly
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    Nov 28th 2013, 6:16 PM

    The workers in the ESB have pay and work conditions that is the envy of most people in the country. Get down from your ivory towers and cop on.

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    Mute Max Power
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    Nov 28th 2013, 8:09 PM

    People seem to forget or maybe don’t know that ESB is a profit making company that pays the Government a dividend every year. In fact ESB have given the government almost 1 billion euros in the past 5 years.

    All ESB employees pay tax to the exchequer like any other working PAYE in this country but some people are under the illusion that we are a burden on the system…

    ESB is one of the only semi state company’s that actually pays a dividend to its owner, the Irish Government..
    But of course the media would never broadcast this because it doesn’t make for great headlines.

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    Mute Pat Kelly
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    Nov 28th 2013, 8:49 PM

    Sorry Max it does not cut it

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    Mute Barry McGrath
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:05 PM

    @max Not the right time to be threatening to turn out the lights

    38
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    Mute Max Power
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:16 PM

    It does not cut it… Wow what a reply… Its the truth so deal with it how ever you will a begrudge the nation if you will but the truth and the facts are what they are..

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    Mute The whistler
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:21 PM

    cuts it with me, if the chief executive wants to break agreements then they can expect industrial action

    37
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    Mute Gill B
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:31 PM

    Once again people fall in to the ‘them versus us’ argument, created by spin doctors of the government. As long we keep fighting with each other over who has best pay, pension etc We will never stand together as nation of people. Cop on people, please if don’t believe me research where the ‘them versus us’ ideology came from maybe then you see how stupid we are. I support ESB workers & any worker who pay/pension is infringed on by this corrupt government !!!

    47
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    Mute Gaius Gracchus
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:47 PM

    I disagree Gill B, there’s very little ‘them versus us’ when it comes to emergency services, nurses, junior doctors, why? Because these are extremely hard working people, everyone, public and private sector workers acknowledge that. The problem is when you put side by side two types of workers. One who has had pay cuts, lost all benefits, and has no job security vs one who has had pay increases, has job security and is now moaning and threatening to strike over their benefits being impinged upon with a potentially massive impact on the public. I would argue that claiming that people are falling for spin and that we need ‘to stand together’ to protect the more privileged worker stifles debate more than anything.

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    Mute Powerabbey
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:50 PM

    Easy to make money when you control the pipes!

    14
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    Mute Eamon O'Sullivan
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    Nov 28th 2013, 10:01 PM

    I’m sorry … you can’t claim to ‘make’ the profit when you run a monopoly on an essential service. The ESB did not contribute that money… the citizens with no other option for electricity did. Basically the profit you claim is a tax.

    43
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    Mute Eamon O'Sullivan
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    Nov 28th 2013, 10:05 PM

    @Max Power – The reason nobody reports your ‘profits’ is you run a State owned monopoly on the distribution network. So, your ‘profits’ are just over-charges on the public. Profit would imply competitive success against your opposition, but there are none.

    40
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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:33 PM

    Please see my comment further down the page which details my position in the company and features figures taken from my payslip.

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    Mute Patrick Murphy
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    Nov 29th 2013, 12:20 AM

    What’s that got to do with this issue Max?

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    Mute Bernadette Dunne
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    Nov 29th 2013, 3:46 AM

    I support E.S.B. Workers. For those of you facing retirement soon You have paid for your pensions out of your own WAGES and the government have gambled the funds away and for those who have hopefully a long service yet to give fight to have your retirement secured and yes strike is at this stage the only way to wake up this government to what they are doing to you They are bringing ALL the workers of Ireland 100 years to the dark times when this country was on her knees our forefathers fought and WORKED damn hard to make this country which we have been proud of and remember folks WE THE WORKERS are NOT responsible for the terrible recession that we are forced into paying unsecured bond holders Come on people if we allow any government to divide us with their lies and more lies of their corrupt actions we will have no hope at all Lets Stand together ………….

    15
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    Mute Kevin Dobson
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    Nov 28th 2013, 6:05 PM

    “This once well managed company”….otherwise known as “this once plaything of the unions, home of the cushy number, paid for by the taxpayers and electricity users of Ireland”…

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    Mute jgrcb
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:38 PM

    Sack them all…

    60
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    Mute Max Power
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:58 PM

    jgrcb,

    Very childish comment to make.

    Sack them all… I really think that you need to have a chat with yourself and grow up.

    Have a think about this scenario: Pay into a pension fund for 40 years then retire and take your chances as to whether or not you have a pension at the end.
    ESB staff pay tax also, to the tune of 52%..

    Sack them all is your best comment….
    I suggest you get a job and contribute to the exchequer.

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    Mute Max Power
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    Nov 28th 2013, 8:17 PM

    Kevin,

    Please educate yourself on the facts before you make silly non factual comments regarding taxpayers..

    All ESB workers and management pay tax to the tune of 52% on their salaries..

    ESB as I already have pointed is a profit making company which pays a dividend to the Government every year and its employees pay tax on a weekly basis, so tell me how exactly is their any cost to the tax payer…

    36
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    Mute gerbreen
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    Nov 28th 2013, 8:50 PM

    Might be cos your rates are among the top rates in Europe?

    35
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    Mute Kevin Dobson
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:18 PM

    Max Power- you should try to read. My reference was to the past.

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    Mute TalkingSence
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    Nov 28th 2013, 6:11 PM

    The unions are pressing the self combust button if they go ahead with this. Let them threaten away.

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    Mute Fong Wannapho
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    Nov 28th 2013, 6:09 PM

    Oh no, it’s never the fault of the unions.

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    Mute Seanjohn O Connor
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:12 PM

    In 2007 my nest egg investment was valued @400k . In 2009 it was valued @ 55k. I was told tough luck, only option now work harder, the same applies to the workers to us all.

    Anybody got any spare candles!!!

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    Mute thefunnyman
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:30 PM

    Where did you get your pension?

    12
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    Mute Seanjohn O Connor
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:58 PM

    EAGLE STAR super capp====== super crap. I would have been better off buying prize bonds , a much better investment & i still would have the cash at the end of the day.

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    Mute thefunnyman
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:35 PM

    Sorry for the late reply i take it that it was a DC scheme? You need to see the difference between the two here. I said this the other day also, going to eagle star was an unsecured gamble for you to take, and it was stated in the terms and conditions that your pension could go up or down, it was the same as me signing for a mortgage in 2007, a gamble that flopped for me and I’m now stuck with massive neg equity. Now on the other hand the esb pension, I was just told sign here you have no choice, those exact words at the time, but where as your tees stated you could loose ours said ours was guaranteed by the company no matter what, no the esb want yo break the terms of that contract wherein the problem lies….

    16
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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:39 PM

    Seanjohn, my sympathies for the loss of your pension. However if someone losses their job should everybody lose their job? Had there been a form of action you and others like you could have taken to prevent the loss of your pension you would have had my unwavering support. We have a duty to stand together and defend ourselves against those that insist on persecuting the working class of this country. I sincerely hope that your fund gains some momentum and grows again to provide you with a comfortable retirement.

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    Mute Patrick Murphy
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    Nov 29th 2013, 12:27 AM

    So esb worker, I have a “duty” to stand by you? Are you having a laugh? A duty? Where were you when my salary was being cut by half? Where was your duty then? A “duty”! Cop yourself on.

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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 29th 2013, 12:57 AM

    Sorry to hear about your pay cut and if my statement that ALL workers should stand together offended you. You may have mistaken that as a request for support. I only ask that people take the time to read the facts an make an informed decision, if you then still believe that our actions are unjustified I fully respect that. If workers all stood together then perhaps you and many others may not have had to endure a pay cut, the same goes for all the citizens of Ireland whom are getting taxed out of existence.

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    Mute Norman Hunter
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    Nov 29th 2013, 1:31 AM

    ESB worker just letting you know read your posts, thanks for what I assume is a frank and honest description of what is going on with yer pensions.
    Despite the vitriol of some commentators here I wish to commend you on maintaining you dignity.
    Lastly and I hope it doesn’t happen, but if it does I fully support the workers actions.I’m sick of the constant attack on the working class and this divide and conquer agenda in our society.
    Anyway take care and have a good Christmas.

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    Mute Eamon O'Sullivan
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    Nov 29th 2013, 1:51 AM

    So you are saying that punishing all citizens of Ireland is actually the best thing for them?
    You have tried to twist your argument to say that it is ‘us’ against the government??? The tax we all have to pay has nothing to do with your threat to cut off power to our homes (and in some cases, life saving medical devices).
    Well done… I think you made a few more people go against you there.

    6
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    Mute Patrick Murphy
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    Nov 29th 2013, 8:30 AM

    No, the comment that all workers stand together didn’t offend, telling me what my duty is did offend, to be honest. Other people deciding what my “duty” should be when they are not in a position to demand duty is what offended but to be fair, I get your point. As for my pay cut, I was getting overpaid anyway and even though it hurt at the time, I can honestly say that I made the best of my situation, my family adjusted and now we have a way better quality of life so thanks for thinking of me but I would not change it back. Money is only money. I don’t begrudge you your pension, I do begrudge the fact that it seems that your union is certainly picking its timing to threaten most disruption, that the bit I don’t agree with but good luck to you.

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    Mute Diarmuid
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    Nov 29th 2013, 8:34 AM

    In reply to my comment on strike placing life’s in danger.
    No our concentrator doesn’t have battery backup.
    We have portable oxygen cylinders in the event of a fault with our power supplies
    The ventilator has an 8 hour battery life. As parents we well capable of making the decision if in the event of a power outage at what point our daughter would need to be brought to hospital
    Many older people though may be living alone or with an elderly spouse and may not be as mobile or have to strength to lift oxygen bottles around the house as they move.
    Whatever amount of backup we have it is still appalling irresponsible of any sector to strike and perhaps place life’s in danger.

    5
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    Mute gerbreen
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    Nov 28th 2013, 6:46 PM

    If company are expected to increase their 16% contribution, will workers increase their 8%?

    72
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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:32 PM

    Company not expected to increase their contributions. Just revert the change that removed our pension scheme from their balance sheet and hence shifted responsibility for the scheme from the company to serving staff. Please read my comments further down the page for a more comprehensive explanation.

    19
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    Mute Alien8
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:41 PM

    You mean like every single pension fund in every other company in the world? ESB workers are slowly realising that they are part of the real world and not some monopoly game where rules can be made up as they go along.

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    Mute Simon Barnes
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    Nov 29th 2013, 1:04 AM

    maybe they could put the 55% discount they get on standard elecy rates into the fund . that should plug the gap nicely

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    Mute Simon Barnes
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    Nov 29th 2013, 1:05 AM

    there are 7000 people in Ireland only paying half their elecy bills. nice

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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 28th 2013, 6:43 PM

    Created account specifically to comment on this topic to protect my identity.
    The Facts
    About me:
    Currently working for ESB as an EI tech in a power station. Previously worked for ESB networks as a NT. Over ten years in total.
    The pension:
    Two schemes. DB inception until closure to new entrants in 2010 @ DC from 2010 onwards for new staff.
    Mandatory to join and contribute to a pension in the company. Both schemes receive contributions from the company and from staffs salary. Pre 1995 staff will only receive a pension from DB scheme, not entitled to state pension.
    The Problem.
    DC scheme is unaffected. DB scheme was identified as underfunded following the economic crash in 2008. Benefits were historically calculated on the basis of final years salary and common practice for managers to receive promotions prior to retirement therefore receive benefits that they didn’t contribute for. In 2010 an agreement was reached between the company and staff to close the DB scheme to new entrants and reduce benefits to future pensioners to a career averaged amount. Scheme received an injection of capital from the company over a period of 5 years from 2010 valued at €550m and to be adjusted for inflation. Scheme to remain as a DB scheme. It was envisaged that the scheme would return to solvency by 2018. The ESB DB pension scheme is mandatory in Irish legislation and no provision for a wind up scenario is catered for in this legislation.

    Continued in following comment…..

    64
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    Mute Luke Sullivan
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    Nov 28th 2013, 6:50 PM

    Bout time someone came out of the woodwork from ESB to explain things. The unions haven’t informed the public as of yet to the realities behind it I’ll post when you finish as my other half works there.

    35
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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:01 PM

    Continued from above…

    (Historically the staffs contributions were used to find the expansion of the company hence the legislation) the current crisis was caused when the government introduced the MFS in 2012, for the first time in history the DB scheme could now be wound up. In this situation existing pensioners would get priority of the funds leaving serving staffs pensions funded by what’s left over, currently this would leave existing staff with a pension of approx 4% of what their accrued benefits should be. The ESB is a very profitable company and the nature of a DB scheme is that it is a liability of the company if underfunded. ESB took the steps to reclassify the pension as a separate DC scheme to remove this liability from their balance sheet so as to improve their credit rating. This was done without agreement from staff, we weren’t even notified. This has left the scheme in a situation that the existing staff are now carrying the full liability of a scheme that the government can wind up at any time as it doesn’t meet the MFS standards even though it is projected to meet those in 2018. The ESB now has a credit rating that’s better than the country’s as a result of this change and is selling assets to give special dividends to the government whilst now borrowing money to replace them. The government is effectively borrowing money through the ESB. We are not looking for a taxpayer bailout, just for the accounting change to be reverted.

    Continued…..

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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:10 PM

    We understand that our actions are drastic and will affect others, but we have been put in this position by both the company and the government who kicked this issue down the road and refused to resolve the issue by all other means. We don’t want to strike over Christmas, or at any other time, but have been left with no other option. We don’t expect the support of the public but would like to be shown some solidarity and understanding as workers whom are being trampled over by this government like everyone else. I will respond to all queries to the best of my ability and apologize in advance for any hardship that our actions may cause as we try to defend our rights. Hopefully this will be resolved without an all out strike as like many others I have a family to support over Xmas aswell.

    63
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    Mute Mikey ️
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:17 PM

    You wanna know what my pension is worth?

    35
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    Mute Brendan Palmer
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:18 PM

    You shouldn’t have wsted your time ESB worker. That drivel wasn’t worth reading past the first paragraph.

    56
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    Mute TalkingSence
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:32 PM

    Solidarity?? With people that threaten old people that they will have no electricity at winter time??? You are kidding right????

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    Mute thefunnyman
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:35 PM

    Brendan Palmer again the bitter arsehole.

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    Mute Gis Bayertz
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:36 PM

    Bullcrap

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    Mute Gis Bayertz
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:37 PM

    Forget solidarity!!!

    17
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    Mute Luke Sullivan
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:40 PM

    Well Brendan. here’s my bit. My partner worked full time in the private sector for 10 years – often doing 55 hours a week. She had accrued a pension pot in that time – as do 50% of people working in the private sector, before being laid off about 5 or 6 year ago when the shit hit the fan.

    She ended up managing to secure a part time job in the ESB after being unemployed for nearly a year, 25 hours a week is what she does, answering phones. But, because, without consultation, the ESB changed the pension terms her old pension pot will become void if it goes ahead, plus she’ll only receive a fraction of the pension she’s worked toward last few years in ESB if this goes ahead. And she’s also being paying into the ESB pension last 5 years or so.

    So, she’ll effectively end up with nothing to show pensionwise for 15 years work.

    She’s far from alone. Many people that left or were laid off in the private sector and transferred to ESB, and also had their pensions transferred, will lose those pensions. And I also personally know couples near retirement that worked there and joined their pension pots in to one – and will lose all of it after a lifetimes work.

    39
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    Mute Max Power
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:41 PM

    Mikey,

    The hard facts here are that ESB workers pay for their own pensions through their working career and on retirement the get to draw down on on the 40 years of payments.
    At no stage is any ESB employee a burden on the state purely for the reason I just pointed out.

    People take different paths in life but people in this country are very quick to begrudge when they don’t have what their neighbour has.

    42
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    Mute Max Power
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:52 PM

    Brendan Palmer,

    Why do people like you say things like that… ESB worker gave the facts. No frills or lies just facts. If the people want to listen to a one sided story then go ahead but if you want to open your mind to the truth then read ESB workers comments.

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    Mute Eamon O'Sullivan
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:51 PM

    No they do not… they contribute certainly… but they do not ‘pay for their pensions’. A defined benefit pension costs almost 40% of salary… you pay 8.5%.
    I would have supported your cause were it not for the lies and the threats to kill old people.

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    Mute 3monkey
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    Nov 28th 2013, 10:35 PM

    ESB Worker, the public hasnt put you in a position to threaten powercuts , YOU OPTED , big difference my friend.Take your problem to your masters not the customer.Fook me you make my blood boil.

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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:05 PM

    We haven’t threatened power cuts. We have threatened a withdrawal of labour. The power won’t go out unless there are faults. Esb staff will make safe any fault that threatens the safety of a member if public (without pay may I add). We have exhausted all other avenues and management refused to negotiate the matter point blank. I don’t mean to cause you any stress, my only intentions here are to provide the facts to the best of my limited ability and reply to reasonable comments in a dignified and respectful manner.

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    Mute Kenneth
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:20 PM

    The problem is greed

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    Mute Diarmuid
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:57 PM

    Good outline of unions portion and pension problems. Don’t know enough but issue to know whose right or wrong. I ask this though and I’m not scaremongering.
    Many elderly and young kids with tracheostomies are depending on home oxygen which in the main comes from a concentrator which is plugged in.
    What assurance can you give them and me as a parent that anyone’s health won’t be effected by this strike.

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    Mute Alien8
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:59 PM

    ‘The nature of a DB scheme is that the company takes liability if underfunded’… This is where you are detached from reality. The company contributes 16% and that is their only liability. It is purely the pension fund is liable if underfunded, no one else, not ‘the management’, the ESB, the govt or the workers. It is up to trustees (which employees are part off) to make sure the fund is stable and managed. We have managed to keep our mixed DB/DC fund in the black by managing it safely and not using it as a gambling pot. You are only there 10 years, ffs, but you want a massive pension fund to be ready to pay you out tomorrow because you see your colleagues leaving at 55 on huge pensions. Take it out on your pension fund, your union and your overpaid colleagues before threatening the rest of the course try with a strike.

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    Mute thefunnyman
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    Nov 29th 2013, 12:11 AM

    Power outages could happen at any time, No1 dose your supplier know you have a sick child.
    If the power does go out even under fault conditions you should look to take the individual to hospital. Most medical machines have battery back up to maintain supply in the event of a power outage, but if you were still concerned, this is what I would do regardless of what ever other safety nets there are to avoid loss of power to medical equipment, is to have my own generator at the house
    Camping shops or tool shops would stock these and would be your best bet as a power source in case of emergency. Don’t fear them any youtube video or website will show you how to hook one up to your house.

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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 29th 2013, 12:18 AM

    I’m genuinely glad to hear that your pension is currently in good shape. However if that changes you will have my support in whatever action you take to defend it. As I’m a post 1995 employee I’m entitled to a state pension as a class A1 PRSI contributor, my ESB pension merely tops this up to the defined benefit as stated in my terms and conditions. If there is a status quo on the current scheme my projected pension @ retirement age of 64 is circa 15500 per annum including the state pension. However my reason for supporting the proposed industrial action is to defend my work colleagues whom are not entitled to a state pension if the current scheme is wound up. I’m prepared to go on unpaid strike action to defend their right to a pension.

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    Mute NLlesnam
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    Nov 29th 2013, 12:20 AM

    Brendan “I haven’t got a ride in 40 years” Palmer strikes again.

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    Mute Eamon O'Sullivan
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    Nov 29th 2013, 1:55 AM

    Couple of corrections…. replace “will affect others” with “will affect everyone and may even kill some old people”.
    Replace “left with no other option” with “don’t want to just negotiate until this is sorted”.
    Replace “don’t expect the support of the public” with “the general taxation system we all abide by has nothing to do with this”.

    What did I do to become a hostage in your employment issue? If my pension was underfunded, do you think I should be entitled to drag you into it?

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    Mute Simon Barnes
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    Nov 29th 2013, 2:31 AM

    @ ESB worker, just want to pull you up over this comment “We don’t want to strike over Christmas, or at any other time,”
    .
    Actually the reverse is more of a correct statement. you DO actually want to strike over Christmas and not at any other time. The time you strike is totally up to you, You have decided to strike at this time to try and maximise your position. Now I cannot blame you for wanting to doing this, but please don’t try and make out you have no other choice. As someone has previously pointed out on here, if ESB have broken a contractual agreement which was signed upon, then you have a process to take them through legal proceeding and the courts. What seems to be happening though is Mr Ogle knows only one route and that is to all out strike, just like he did with the bus and rail companies.

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    Mute Theobald Wolfe Tone
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    Nov 29th 2013, 7:39 AM

    @ESBworker thank you for clearly outlining why ESB workers are striking and particularly for your honesty about certain practices (promotions before retirement to boost pension pay). Is it possible for the pension to reduce benefits to people already retired? Is the pension based on average salary only applicable to those still working?

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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 29th 2013, 9:13 AM

    Your welcome. Very difficult audience though!! To answer your question current pensioner have had their pensions frozen, ie no longer adjusted upwards for inflation but their benefits can’t be reduced, only those retired since 2010 are on career averaged benefits. All serving staff have been moved to career averaged pensions since 2010.

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    Mute Theobald Wolfe Tone
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    Nov 29th 2013, 5:32 PM

    Thanks again, it’s a difficult issue that I don’t think the representatives of ESB staff have properly explained to the public. I fear if the strike goes ahead as scheduled you will lose all public support and the government will take a stronger position against you. Good luck!

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    Mute Aunty Simmonite
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    Nov 28th 2013, 6:42 PM

    If they go out the gate then Ogle has failed to look after his people. Mind you he seems to be on some sort of ego trip.

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    Mute Joan Featherstone
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:05 PM

    Aunty…Ogle is looking toward Hollywood…..arsehole!

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    Mute Gmurpi
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:13 PM

    It’s all about Ogle, this deluded guy thinks he’s a superstar! During the railway strike which he brought about it was all about self promotion then, and it still is now! Lights! Camera! Action!

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    Mute Robin Hilliard
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    Nov 28th 2013, 6:41 PM

    Am I right in thinking that this dispute is about pensions being converted from “defined benefit” to “defined contribution”?

    ie, the unions are striking to force a pension that pays out a fixed amount regardless of what you put in?

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    Mute ihatehens
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:38 PM

    @ Gaius

    You seriously arguing that things have gone well for consumers since the breakup of the ESB monopoly?
    Prices have gone from one of the cheapest in Europe to one of the most expensive! You’ve FF to blame for that, but whatever, look at the record profits that the energy companies have made since! The price from the ESB before de regulation was so cheap that no external companies were interested as not enough profit was made. Price increases were made and suddenly everyone is quids in…..doesn’t take a genius on this one!!

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    Mute Gaius Gracchus
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:51 PM

    Point out the bit where I ‘argued’ that things have gone well for consumers, I didn’t even mention consumers, maybe you just read what you wanted to read

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    Mute ihatehens
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:29 PM

    @ Mikey and Seanjohn….

    Why the race to the bottom? Just because someone’s pension isn’t as attractive as others, why should everyone lose out? Fair play to the workers for standing up to this corrupt little island, ordinary man getting shafted at every turn, bled dry to keep the rich….rich!

    The ESB DB pension is a term of employment, it’s part of the remuneration package that both employer and employee signed up to, so one side can’t alter that without the other agreeing, that’s how contractual obligations work. Imagine if your employer announced record profits and special dividends then said, sorry lads, you’re gonna have to take a pay cut, and essentially that’s what this is if all the pension risk is placed on the employees.
    Don’t think anyone including Ogle wants employees on the gate, but in this case, I can’t see much option unless the owner steps in and instructs the ESB to sort this!

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    Mute NewVision Ireland
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    Nov 28th 2013, 8:05 PM

    Message for Mr. Oglw and Mr. Kenny.
    From reading all about the pension problems at ESB
    From what I am hearing I make out that workers contractual agreements have been changed without their consent. If this is the case, it is not on! It is illegal
    The way this should be tackled is through legal means, not through blackmail of a strike especially as a strike will impact on ALL our lives health safety jobs etc. .
    Mr.Ogle you are cracking a nut with semtex, there is to many people who will be affected by a strike.If you have a case it is very simple and the law will force ESB to commit to its contractual obligations.
    In the mean time if you take this legal route, old people, small businesses families with small kids can have a positive Christmas,
    Please correct me if I am wrong..
    THE GOVERMENT SHOULD EXPLAIN TO THE COUNTRY IN A PUBLIC BROADCAST EXACTLY WHAT THIS IS ABOUT .. I beleive the Govt. are hoping that the ignorance of the general public about the details will create a groundswell of hatred against those who strike and by doing so it will pressureise the unions not to strike.. This will not solve the problem!!! MR KENNY YOUR LEADERSHIP IS DEMANDED

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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:11 PM

    Excellent and rational comment,Please see my above posts which I hope will help you make an informed opinion on way or another. Selected staff representatives are currently taking legal action against the company but due to the ineffective justice system there is a distinct possibility that a decision won’t be made in time to protect our pensions. Any further concerns please feel free to ask and I’ll provide as much information as I can.

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    Mute Eamon O'Sullivan
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    Nov 29th 2013, 1:45 AM

    I must have missed the publication of a deadline. Is there one? Will we make it before the court decides or is that just a random scare tactic for your colleagues?

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    Mute Fiannaoicht
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:48 PM

    Despite the extraordinary selfishness at the heart of this rabble, part of me hopes that megalomaniac Ogle is blinded enough by his own arrogance to progress to an all out strike. Perhaps only then can a strong (hopefully) government with overwhelming support from the public support stand firm and crush the ESB Unions and 87% of their members by dragging them into the reality of Ireland in 2013. No more than the eircom staff that preceded them, they are one of the last bastions of self righteous behemoths left in this state. I switched to another provider long ago on principle at supporting over paid egotists. They better be careful what they wish for.

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    Mute Max Power
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:35 PM

    Fiannaoicht,

    Well done on switching to another electricity provider. However the laugh is on you as you pay more.. a cheaper unit price but a higher standing charge..
    Also regardless who your supplier is ESB networks still gets its portion for maintenance, repair and service. So good choice on principal but bad financial move….
    The reality of 2013 is that paying into a pension for 40 years and possibly having nothing at the end is a real reality… Best of luck with the new supplier!!!

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    Mute Fiannaoicht
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:50 PM

    So you’re saying the introduction of competition in the Irish energy market was pointless as we have to protect the ESBs cosy cartel regardless? That no matter who any individual may choose as their energy supplier, all roads ultimately lead back to the ESB as their monopolistic status is in fact protected due to the unions threat of strike action when the government attempted to even suggest they might truly separate Eirgrid from their control?
    Seems they have us in their pockets there Max, a situation you seem quite comfortable with. Like paying the highest energy prices in Europe do you? If so, I run a small confectionary business and I would gladly sell you my produce at the highest price possible seeing as you’re feeling so generous.

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    Mute Alien8
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    Nov 29th 2013, 12:10 AM

    Where is this bloke who has been with ESB for 40 years, and will not be getting a pension? You’ve mentioned this a few times, but I would guess his take home pension is higher than ESBWorker’s wages (outlined above). The only potential losers in this are ESBWorker and that girl who answers the phone 25 hours a week who will be getting the pension they contributed to, not what they wished they had…

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    Mute Simon Barnes
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    Nov 29th 2013, 1:25 AM

    @ max power. standing charge is like €1 more expensive and units are cheaper. I think he’ll save money in the long run, the more elecy he uses the more he’ll save.

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    Mute Blacksod63.
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    Nov 28th 2013, 6:35 PM

    Will Mr Ogle answer Eddie Hobbs theory which sired on radio today? I doubt it!

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    Mute Gaius Gracchus
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:28 PM

    Some facts on ESB salaries here; http://www.finfacts.com/irishfinancenews/article_1017146.shtml

    Also this quote above “You, the most senior and highly paid management in ESB, have brought this once well managed company to an unprecedented industrial relations crisis,” the ESB GoU pointedly say.

    Would that be because ‘this once well managed company’ had a monopoly on the Irish electricity supply market up until the last few years?

    Cry me a river.

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    Mute Gis Bayertz
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:39 PM

    Hear, hear

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    Mute Kevin Mullen
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:47 PM

    I listened to Ogle on the coalition station this morning and he had all the answers to every question that Sean O’Rourke threw at him which left Mr O’Rourke a bit tongue tied. Mr Ogle is a clever man and he ticked all the boxes as far as the ESB is concerned.

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    Mute The whistler
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:33 PM

    Ogle knocked everything the RTE hack threw at him out of the park but do you think the dribblers on here are going to notice that?

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    Mute Gaius Gracchus
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:36 PM

    How Ogle has changed his tune since 2011;

    ‘A confidential document shows staff at the semi-state are entitled to a wide range of allowances on top of their basic pay, overtime, and pension contributions.Individual allowances can be worth up to €6,000 a year, and workers can benefit from more than one type, the Irish Independent has learned. Details of the extra cash on offer come after ESB union boss Brendan Ogle described its workers as “spoilt”. He also said they enjoyed frequent “gravy” to stop them going on strike.’

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    Mute Daniel.
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:09 PM

    Me me me. My pension my wages. Bitter fukcers on here. Support to the esb workers standing up for themselves.

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    Mute Simon Barnes
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    Nov 29th 2013, 1:26 AM

    NO

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    Mute richardmccarthy
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:35 PM

    From what i can gather Mr Ogles union want the DB based on final salery pension scheme that oprerated prior to 2010 but which is now in deficit like all pension schemes,bar politicians, but unlike the private sector which saw pensions vastly reduced, they dont want to take the hit,but want the losses made good by the state,ie the government to guarentee their pensions even though they are not responsible,if they dont get this guarentee,they are quite prepared to pull the plug on the country,anyone that remembers the train and bus strikes many years ago will testify the country took many years to recover from the damage that was done by the reckless strikes under Mr Ogle.

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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:16 PM

    No, we fully accept and are willing to conform to the 2010 agreement to move to a career averaged DB pension. Our only demands are that the accounting method of the scheme, which was changed without agreement by management and removed the company’s liability to the scheme and transferred it to serving staff, be reverted to what was agreed. We are not looking for any bailout of the scheme.

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    Mute Simon Barnes
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    Nov 29th 2013, 1:14 AM

    “Our only demands are that the accounting method of the scheme, which was changed without agreement by management ”

    seems the solution is for you to agree to them then.

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    Mute ihatehens
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    Nov 28th 2013, 8:04 PM

    You tell me Gaius, it’s an article about a pension problem and the only thing you refer to us the ESB salaries, nothing about the pension at all, maybe you should refer to earlier comments about begrudgery and a race to the bottom, maybe they would be more fitting to your class of comment?

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    Mute Gaius Gracchus
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    Nov 28th 2013, 8:54 PM

    With the exclusion of the top 10% in this country, every worker has a pension problem in this country right now, private and public sector. My original point was that, given the generous salaries, benefits, perks ESB workers have in comparison to the average Joe who’s also suffering, and who’s pension is probably in tatters compared to ESB workers, I think they should suck it up a little. It’s the same as the Dublin Bus workers whinging and threatening a strike that would affect no one but ordinary people over a bit of overtime, funny how all of these strike threats always come from public or semi-state workers who are impossible to sack despite their ongoing incompetence, they are unaccountable and so heavily unionised that they are a black hole for the taxpayer. While I am loathe to post a link from the Indo, read on at your leisure http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-a-startling-array-of-perks-on-offer-for-esb-staff-26767643.html

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    Mute Gaius Gracchus
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    Nov 28th 2013, 8:56 PM

    Average ESB salary €85,000 vs Northern Ireland equivalent, Veridian, €41,000

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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:25 PM

    10 years service as a qualified electrician and instrument technician and several other minor qualifications, acting as a supervisor and on call and available for work 24/7.

    Annual salary = 37681 before tax
    Pension contribution = 3221 per annum
    Any additional earnings are as a result of overtime and call outs which are paid per hour with a minimum of 4hrs per call out.

    Not great wages but certainly could be much worse.

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    Mute Max Power
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:28 PM

    Gaius,

    Incorrect information I’m afraid.

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    Mute Gaius Gracchus
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:42 PM

    Max, it’s from an internal document….from the ESB, you’re welcome to provide evidence to the contrary of course

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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:53 PM

    Perhaps you should consider the limitations of an average wage figure. I am not debating that your figures or any other published average wage is incorrect but that it may not reflect the whole truth. Due to the top heavy nature of the company there is an inproportional amount of senior managers on high salaries, this has the effect of increasing the average figure. A mean wage figure would more accurately describe the salary situation at the ESB as it would take this into consideration.

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    Mute Simon Barnes
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    Nov 29th 2013, 1:19 AM

    @ ESB worker.. 37K is still a pretty decent basic wage, now add in all the other benefits you get so that we see what your final annual salary is. like health care, exemption from the pension levy. OT, on call charges, call out charges, Sunday hours, 55% reduction in your electric bills. subsidised canteen’s, shift allowances
    .
    I work in engineering and IT systems administration and my basic is 32K per year, And I don’t get all the other bits you’re entitled to, my pension pot is currently worth less than €100 per week after contributing to it since 1999

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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 29th 2013, 8:39 AM

    This is detracting from the issue at hand, you have no right to receive such information from me personally but in order to inform your misguided curiosity here we go.

    No healthcare. There is a medical fund, the cost to join the lower tier scheme is €985 per annum paid solely by the employee.
    We do pay the pension levy that all private pensions pay. We don’t pay the public service pension levy as we contribute to our own pensions.
    My workplace has a canteen with appliances. Not subsidized and no materials provided, bring your own.
    I don’t receive a shift allowance.
    Sundays are double time.
    Call outs are as described above.
    €40 per week for on call allowance, subject to full tax.
    Overtime varies greatly from 10hours per annum up to 300 hours per annum. Depends on workload and frequency of call outs.
    This is not salary. And is not superanuable.
    My pension is projected to pay out approx €63 per week to top up my state pension following 40 years service if the scheme is not wound up.

    Just a question, if I earned less than you would that make a difference? Would I have to earn less than everybody in the country before my cause would be understood?

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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 29th 2013, 8:47 AM

    I forgot to include staff discount. It varies depending on your usage. My last personal electricity bill of €268 reduced by €71 with staff discount. This equates to a benefit of €8.2 per week.

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    Mute ihatehens
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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:56 PM

    Gaius

    Well what else were you trying to say if not looking at this from a consumers point of view? What bearing has an employees wages got on this debate?

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    Nov 28th 2013, 7:58 PM

    So you’re going to interpret my comment the way you want, and then tell me what I really meant?

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    Mute ihatehens
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:50 PM

    Gaius

    ESB equivalent is ESB, sure they both them a few years back for €1bn, then had to spend a few hundred million guaranteeing the NIE pension as was contractually obliged…..

    And again, you keep going back to wages allowances etc….why shouldn’t someone be paid an allowance for being on call, anytime day or night, regardless of the weather? 98% of employees don’t get it.
    Why all the links to wages/allowance? This is a pension problem…you should watch prime time

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    Mute Stephen Mc Donagh
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:45 PM

    Funny how all the ESB worker supporters are hiding behind fake names and troll accounts.

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    Mute ESB worker
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:28 PM

    Due to the nature of the topic and it being a public forum I don’t feel comfortable revealing my true identity for fear of being possibly targeted by ESB management.

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    Mute Max Power
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:41 PM

    Stephen,

    Due to the sensitive nature of the issues real names will only draw attention and a spotlight down on a staff member for speaking out.
    All the information posted be ESB worker is factual and I thank him/her for that, as we do not get a fair shout in the media.

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    Mute Derick Branson
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    Nov 29th 2013, 12:04 AM

    Industrial relations are based upon trust. Friction between management and workers can be lessened with proper negotiations. If any trust factor is breached by any party, the negotiation fails. After reading this article it seems that the current CEO has indeed breached the trust by going back on the works given by his predecessor.

    Financial Consultant at http://teletrade-dj.it/

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    Mute ihatehens
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    Nov 28th 2013, 9:51 PM

    ESB equivalent in NI is ESB…

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    Mute ESB Staff
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    Nov 29th 2013, 6:08 PM

    There are quiet a number of comments with correct facts and there are quiet a few with incorrect information.

    I am a full time ESB employee. I will not be drawn into a them and us debate nor will I try to patronise people with ideas of me living on the bread line.

    My salary is approx 50K. I cannot apologise for this as I submitted an application form did an interview and the rest is history. We all make choices in life.
    I really feel for people without work in this country and the leaders of the country do little to improve things but they pay the German piper without a thought.

    It must be hard for people to see why there is a threat of strike but when there is the real possibility of nothing for you or your family on retirement. To be honest its hard to think of that day. But without a resolve it will happen.

    I’m surprised that the Government haven’t stepped in to resolve this, being the owners of the company. Staff in general have no faith in senior management for what they have done to the ordinary workers and in a round about way the public.

    We all really want a resolve ASAP because if the lights go out in the country then our lights will go out as well. Even ESB workers have families..

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    Mute Kenneth
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:16 PM

    Time to get tough just start firing them

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    Mute Max Power
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    Nov 28th 2013, 11:38 PM

    Kenneth,

    Just start firing them… Kenneth for President!! Oh ya President of cloud 9…….. Sounds like you need to get a job or at least get out more.

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    Mute NLlesnam
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    Nov 29th 2013, 12:16 AM

    Kenneth and brendan palmer should lock themselves in a room.. There would be some angry hate filled man on man action. Might take the edge off for both of them.

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    Mute thefunnyman
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    Nov 29th 2013, 12:36 AM

    Kenneth true a bellend.

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    Mute thefunnyman
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    Nov 29th 2013, 12:38 AM

    You’re a bellend

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    Mute Patrick Murphy
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    Nov 29th 2013, 12:42 AM

    Max, at least esb worker is making logical factual additions to this. You , on the other hand, are just being insulting and launching personal attacks on people. How do you know if people have jobs? Do you have access to our personal details? And are you suggesting that if someone does not have a job that their opinion is not worth voicing? If you have to resort to this sort of attack on people then maybe either your arguments are not worth the time it takes you to type them or perhaps you lack the skill necessary to argue with grown ups. Or maybe you just aren’t very pleasant. Either way, you aren’t doing your side any favours.

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    Nov 29th 2013, 12:55 AM

    Patrick follow Kenneth’s post he’s a fuc(ing troll and a nasty one to boot max shudnt be lowering himself but Kenneth needs more than abuse directed at him.

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    Mute Patrick Murphy
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    Nov 29th 2013, 12:58 AM

    Yeah I get that now funny man. Probably picked the wrong troll to make that argument for, to be fair. Hate wasting good arguments on bad trolls.

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