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A SUB-STANDARD ELECTRICITY infrastructure could hamper Ireland’s economic recovery, director of Engineers Ireland John Power has warned.
Speaking to RTÉ’s Morning Ireland, Power said that companies looking to invest in Ireland could be discouraged if the electricity grid was not able to handle future demand.
He also urged people not to doubt EirGrid’s controversial Gridlink project, noting that ‘some of the best engineers in the world’ work with the company.
“We second-guess these experts at our peril”, he said.
“Maybe we should ask ourselves why would any company want to put themselves through such negative publication and grief.”
“Put simply, a strong infrastructure is the foundation for economic prosperity.”
Companies are less likely to plan future investment in Ireland if the country lacks essential infrastructure, Power warned, potentially leading to a lack of job creation and continued high levels of unemployment.
Addressing suggestions raised by groups opposed to Gridlink that miles of pylons could be avoided by placing the cables underground, he said that in most other European countries less than a mile and a half of every 100 miles of cables are placed underground, and that it is the norm to place them above ground.
Health concerns regarding the use of these high-powered cables are without merit, he said, stating that evidence from around the world suggest that “it isn’t actually happening”.
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Why in the name of Jesus is it better to put the cables above ground, in plain sight, on those eyesore pylons? I do enjoy all the “statistical facts and evidence” people use to support their opinion…oh, well everyone else does this so we should too!
I work in Electrical Supply Cabling in Australia, and it is ALL done underground. From simple street lighting to 33kv, and it’s a fantastic and safe system. I think if they decided to upgrade the electrical infrastructure in Ireland underground they would have an incredibly skilled workforce to return home as there are thousands of us working on exactly them type of Civil projects in Australia, between Gas, Sewer, Water and Electric, we have been doing this for the past number of years and I’d much prefer to be doing it at home rather than 18,000kms away!
The only negative aspect of putting them underground is money, which unfortunately is the major one.
Granted it costs more, but is the cost not offset by the quality and longevity of the finished product? If they can’t afford to do as much, why not do it in smaller stages, spread over a longer timescale? No one says they have to do it in 12 months. Australia’s economy is stable and relatively booming, yet they have also slowed down the rate at how quickly they are upgrading their major cities infrastructures!
It’s a fair reply though, cash is king at the moment and maybe our economy just can’t sustain this development to be done underground. Just be a pity to litter the country with them nasty looking pylons.
Over ground does damage our reputation for Tourism and Agri. Both major industries here and ones that we cannot afford to have damaged. Perception is everything.
Govt. is doing a daddy knows best line again. A major problem in Ireland.
Indeed Cillian, and unfortunately Daddy doesn’t always know best. It baffles me how the Government, a collection of supposed educated men can make such ridiculous decisions constantly… No wonder the country is in the state it’s in!!
This is a sensible comment and people would be delighted to come home and work on this project. It would be a win-win – preserve the rural landscape and economy while giving Irish emigrants a chance to come home.
Sadly the vested interests will continue to push the pylon agenda. Watch the spin doctors try to create a rural/urban divide with rural against pylons and urban in favour of them. I think this is starting to happen.
Perhaps the long term plan is to totally devalue the Irish countryside which would make it less viable and habitable for locals but an attractive business proposition for overseas speculators.
Is doing it in the cheapest possible way the objective? I think doing it in the best way that doesn’t ruin people’s homes & our landscape is worth investing in. Eirgrid have not even considered underground, they haven’t priced it or looked into the engineering of it. They just expected rural communities to lie down & take it.
It would give a better view that you standing with no shirt on you skinny girl!
Brian, as someone in the industry, you should know better why the HV and EHV aren’t run underground where OHL option is available. The cost difference is significant and there is no two ways around it. You obviously work in electricity distribution which operates largely in urban areas and there OHL is not a runner so underground cables are predominantly used. In the open rural areas, however, underground cables are rarely used and there is damn good reason for that. It boils down to $$$. Another issue is significant capacitance of cables compared to electrical characteristics of OHL. Good luck running several hundreds kilometres of cables. It is used under sea when there is no other option.
Don’t be talking science here Dom.
All South County Dublin – cables are underground
Watch this whole pylon thing kick off in May when the local elections and EU elections take place…..
Can we not put them underground?
Yes, the Enda Kenny message of “invest or emigrate” is pure bull. As Japan and others have shown, once the work is completed on such projects over a few short years, the jobs then disappear as the infrastructure is in place. After that, it will only need a small number of people to keep monitor and maintain.
And the impact to the landscape will have consequences for tourism and not least the local people themselves.
It is worth the extra 3% cost to put it underground.
At least do the independent study to see if the works can go underground.
The construction jobs may dissapear but big companies like Intel and Microsoft will soon dissapear also if our infrastructure is not upgraded. That will lose thousands of jobs.
5 of the biggest companies in this country use 25% of our daily consumption of electricity. If our infrastructure is not upgraded they will uproot to a new country which has better infrastructure and the consequences on the economy would be astronomical..
Cost is much greater. Far more ecpensive
National grid, UK grid operator, have already done the study: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CFEQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.nationalgrid.com%2FWorkArea%2FDownloadAsset.aspx%3Fid%3D13789&ei=_2nWUoLtLsrIhAf8k4CYBA&usg=AFQjCNFLjyX1RqfrK_zzPnyE-is7k0mXTw&sig2=nAYRPUqw8tH_IBrJ0BcypA&bvm=bv.59378465,d.ZG4
Apologies for the long link!
The Irish Government has already commissioned an independent studyof our power lines [Ecofys 2008 ] which puts the cost of underground 400kV cable at €3.09 million per km with 132kV lines coming in at 1/8 of that.
We don’t need the power line under discussion as it is purely to export power from an expansion of the wind scam.
” And nowhere is this more so than in the Irish midland counties of Meath, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois and Kildare where another 1,100 turbines are planned – some even bigger than at Finuge – to generate electricity for export to the UK.
The bright idea was that this would enable Britain to meet it’s own renewable energy targets while bypassing growing opposition at home, earning Ireland over £2 billion a year in the process. It was thought that the Irish would accept the turbines as they had in the past.”
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geoffreylean/100253502/will-giant-turbines-blow-away-irelands-support-for-windpower/
Thanks Aunty. They must really think the Irish are fools.
So youre worried about a power cut at Intel Gary!? Why not invest in a local power generator as a business continuity option then? Please spare us your spin which is somewhat patronising.
Oh but wait….
Declan Conway, if anything else, the example of Japan has proven that the infrastructure investments which are not required by the economy lead only to short term jobs boost and long term debt overhang.
Dom – that was my point.
Firstly engineers Ireland are acting in the interest of their members only.
Secondly putting HV cables overground or underground is an irrelevance. This “investment” is a waste of money. Eirgrid and ESB are tied to a defunct model of generation/transmission which currently sees European utilities losing hundreds of billions annually.
“In our existing system, electricity is
produced in a small number of large power
stations, and then distributed to where it is
needed. Because the power stations are
generally far from centres of demand, much
of the heat which is produced when fossil
fuels are burnt is not used, but vented up
chimneys or discharged to rivers. This heat
loss alone represents a wastage of over sixty
percent of the total energy released by
burning the fossil fuels. Further losses occur
as the electricity travels along the wires of
the transmission and distribution systems. In
total, the energy wasted at the power station
and on the wires is equal to the entire water
and space heating demands of all buildings in
the UK – industrial, commercial, public and
domestic. This is a nonsensical way to run
our economy and power our lives.”
- Stephen Tindale, Executive Director,
Greenpeace UK
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/
MultimediaFiles/Live/FullReport/7154.pdf
http://www.economist.com/news/
briefing/21587782-europes-electricity-
providers-face-existential-threat-how-lose-
half-trillion-euros
How will increasing the costs of electricity keep companies like Intel in Ireland ?
Does anyone here actually use logic anymore ?
the targets are going to be scrapped after 2020
I don’t think anybody is doubting the skill of the engineers involved, I’m sure they’re fantastic. The issue is that thousands of tonnes of extremely high metal towers carrying electrical cables will be put right through our unspoiled countryside.
This is to boost the infrastructure to allow for further growth and to entice big companies to come here and to help kick start our economy. But hey wait a minute some people prefer to look at fields and trees and plants than to secure jobs and work for their children and grandchildren people need to open their eyes and see the bigger picture..
Exactly, there is a bigger picture.
It is not one or the other.
Yes coz what do trees give us? Useless things. Standing there doing nothing, just producing oxygen…
And what about the tourism that Ireland’s untouched landscape of ‘trees and fields and plants’ bring in. Don’t think many tourists will want to look at ugly pylons the length and breath of the country.
I live in cork city so this doesn’t affect me directly but i can completely see where people in rural Ireland are coming from on this, it’s fine for people in towns and cities to say build them we need them for infrastructure but it’s not our houses they are going to be 50 metres from.
And I know some say there’s no health risk but there’s an awful of research also saying there is, even our own health minister has grave concerns. It’s far more expensive but put them underground; infrastructure is improved, countryside view isn’t blighted and if there are health risks they’ll be avoided too. Some things are worth more than money
Just wondering…will these proposed pylons be near you??
above comment @Garry Patton
Gary- I understand fully the need for power.
Put the cables underground. Sure, it’ll cost a lot, but in 100 years time, will anybody really care? I know I won’t; and I’m sure you won’t.
The government are making short term fixes for every problem. They are the ones not seeing the bigger picture. Seemingly they can’t see beyond a few years in future.
Irish nature and scenery is one of our biggest draws for tourism. Not to mention the importance of the environment itself as an entity.
Wrong. These pylons are for wind energy. John Powers is a renewables man – its on his linkedin profile. He wants to benefit from the lavish subsidies so as an invested interest his view shouldnt be taken into account.
Key to economic prosperity for Who? Eirgrid , English energy providers, consultants. Foreign contractors.
Who will it cost, the Irish people.
I don’t object to pylons on any other grounds than they are ugly and will destroy the amenity of this country that brings in billions in revenue from tourism.
Everytime the government or business want to rail road something through, they always use the old mantra ” it will cost jobs”
LISBON = JOBS ,STABILITY ,EMPLOYMENT .LOOK WHERE THAT GOT US. lisbon gave the EU total freedom to do what they liked with us. Wake up people and oppose ,resist fight .
The hypocrisy of it , half the country still can’t get proper broadband and they are talking about this being the key to prosperity . Take a drive to the north of France to see these monstrosity for real .
I hope to look back with pride in future years that we are the people who put a stop to Eirgrid’s destruction of our environment & heritage. It might be too late for Georgian Dublin & Woodquay but it’s not too late to stop these unnecessary pylons from permanently destroying our countryside. Make no mistake about it, this infrastructure isn’t being built for the benefit of the Irish people but for the benefit of a few well connected business people who hope to do well out of selling wind power into the UK backed by subsidies & support from their friends in the Irish Govt.
The golden circle is alive & well. These Govt officials will be appointed to the boards of the organisations they facilitate to bully the Irish people as soon as their political careers end. It’s sickening.
You can be sure that the brief that Eirgrid’s engineers got was to find the cheapest way to erect this infrastructure & this is what they did. Well maybe it’s time they went back to the drawing board & looked for the best way to build it & I have have no doubt that they will find that going underground & off-shore is the best way. Saving money in the short run at the cost of destroying rural communities is not good business & will be resisted at every step by people who care about our country & see Ireland as not just an economy but a society.
Will you ever stop spamming these articles with the same copy and paste job
@ThomasFrancisMeagher ,keep up the good work. This scam has to be fought tooth and nail and ordinary people must be shown the reality behind it.
Underground. No other way when we have such beautiful landscape.
There is someone with money in this pylon business pushing for them over the underground lines. I’m certain that some corruption is involved. No one in this countries government/councils seems to operate transparently and cleanly.
If these pylons go ahead it is a blight on our country for years and a huge mistake. Cop on people.
I agree…
Of course you do.
A lot of money went into that PR speech. Put the cables underground and be finished with it. That way the visual amenity is preserved and the long term future of infrastructure, jobs, tourism, health etc is safeguarded.
Two of the Pylon routes in question run through Special Areas of Conservation: the Comeragh Mountains and Slievenamon. Much work has been undertaken by Waterford CoCo in the development of tourism in the area, such as the recently launched hiking routes in the Comeraghs & the Deise Greenway cycle path. South Tipp CoCo is also seeking to promote tourism in the Suir Valley, along the former Towpath on the River Suir between Carrick-on-Suir and Kilsheelan. Surely such initiatives would suffer were pylons to be constructed in either or both of the aforementioned areas?
Why did EirGrid not consider an underwater power route from (a) Knockraha to Great Island via the Cork/Waterford coast or (b) from Knockraha to Dublin as part of its study area? Given that the company wishes to construct a 600-kilometre underwater inter-connector from Great Island to France, it appears incongruous that the same consideration would not be given by an Irish company for one of its proposed Irish projects?
It has been stated on more than one occasion by both EirGrid and Minister Rabbitte that this power line is necessary for economic development. How then did the country prosper during the late 90s and into the mid-2000s when this route was not in place and full employment was achieved?
Belgium has buried 80 per cent of all its cables according to MEP Brian Crowley Why has an exclusively overhead option been forwarded by EirGrid given what is now being carried out in other EU Member States?
They can bury cables underground in the US for $1million a mile, I wonder why the cost jumped to do the job in Ireland according to the 2008 report?
And these are engineers with degrees in Economics is it!?!?!
If you think engineers don’t take costs into account then you really have no idea.
What else would he say?
Vested interests will always follow the path of maximum gravy.
Once the countryside is destroyed there will be no going back. The people behind this scam will just walk away leaving us with thousands of pylons and wind turbines littering the place. The two are linked, make no mistake about this.
I’m sure giving engineers jobs will actually be prosperous for engineers, but the rest of us?
What’s the point in doing something on the cheap if it affects others lifestyle.
I assume all this pylon business is because the costs of maintaining underground power circuits and cabling is expensive as opposed to be able to send someone up on a cherry picker and replace parts as needed
Engineers will only get a short term benefit. The big winners will be UK power companies that will receive wind energy from Ireland and be able to resell fossil energy back to us at a higher price… Don’t think there are over a million homes in Wexford harbour needing power from wind farms, do you? And possibly that bloke from Irish Water and Michael Noonan will make a few bob as well. And the planners, and a few councillors.
The maintenance of underground cabling is actually rather simple. Groups of cables are run on their required line, where they take 90 degree bends (ie. to cross a road) or when the line is too long, any joints are done in an underground “joint bay”. This joint bay is an underground pit, covered by easily lifted lids for access. The cables themselves are ran inside conduits, and covered with sand, “cover strips” (hard plastic strips notifying anyone digging down that there are cables underneath) concrete if needs be at times also. The cables are fully tested and the interiors of the conduits are “proven” so as to show there is no damage or squashing, that they are in perfect condition for housing a cable.
The joint bays allow for retrospective cable pulling, if a cable was to somehow get damaged underground, the joint bay at both ends of the cabling are opened, and a new cable is rather easily pulled through the conduit.
The maintenance on underground cabling is minimal, to non existent, and rather easy. Though the electrical infrastructure may seem complicated, it’s actually very simple.
Brian i hope you never carrying out any work near my area
Brian, that sounds like your typical Urban 33kV distribution cables/ducting.
These are 400kV Transmission cables that are been proposed and as such are very different beasts.
You can’t compare them when it comes to underground laying; the cables are substantially bigger due to larger conducted size and insulation depth, meaning they are heavier and come in shorter cable lengths which means more joints/km length. The risk of failure of these cables is much greater, meaning they have to be buried deeper with each joint encased in huge a concrete sarcophagus as a protection against any such failure.
They are not comparable with the normal cables that run under our city streets.
The phrase that Eirgrid & their highly paid spin-doctors & political lobbyists use over & over again with relation to health concerns is that there is “no conclusive proof”
There of course is proof in several reports of childhood leukaemia & other illnesses being higher near to high voltage lines but as these lines are almost always put in areas of low income that serves as a mitigating factor to make these reports “inconclusive”.
The ” inconclusive” strategy was also used by the tobacco lobby in the US & elsewhere with great success for many years.
I & most parents I know would not allow any company no matter how powerful or well-connected to gamble with the health of my children. Do the right thing Eirgrid because ye aren’t getting away with putting up these pylons when going underground & off-shore is a better option in every way.
Well if we do have ‘some of the best engineers in the world’ you would think that they should be able to engineer themselves a solution to this problem. Are we the only country on this planet that has this problem? Or as I suspect this project is more about a short term solution that will see this infrastructure sold to some American investment fund in years to come. Our electricity grid is well able to handle our current needs. What magic ball is John Power licking to know what the future holds and that our grid will be sub standard to handle it. Why did councils give planning for wind farms if the could not be connected into our existing electricity grid. History repeating itself.
Do some research. Your whole comment is waffle
what about the tourism that Ireland’s untouched landscape bring in. Don’t think many tourists will want to look at ugly pylons the length and breath of the country.
I live in cork city so this doesn’t affect me directly but i can completely see where people in rural Ireland are coming from on this, it’s fine for people in towns and cities to say build them we need them for infrastructure but it’s not our houses they are going to be 50 metres from.
And I know some say there’s no health risk but there’s an awful of research also saying there is, even our own health minister has grave concerns. It’s far more expensive but put them underground; infrastructure is improved, countryside view isn’t blighted and if there are health risks they’ll be avoided too. Some things are worth more than money
It’s strange. My opinion on this is changing somewhat. Make no mistake, this anti-pylon crap is being driven by a small band of die-hard maniacs who’d freak out if you tried to put a signpost at the end of their road. These guys are whipping up a hysteria with unsubstantiated claims about health and basically spouting a load of rubbish, blowing the whole thing way out of proportion.
But on the other hand, why have EirGrid been so obtuse and dismissive of concerns? They don’t seem to have made any meaningful effort to engage with rural people and there are many deficiencies in the project as it stands. I’m beginning to think we should just underground it *wherever possible* in order to get on with it as we really do need a new grid.
The political opportunism taking place right now is shameless. Prendergast for one should shut the hell up. Can only imagine the reaction if a man had used the ‘r’ word.
EirGrid have been setting up talks and community discussions all over the country. They also had a big information stand at the National Ploughing Championships and the general feedback from people living in rural Ireland and along the proposed corridors was very good.
The health risks are completely untrue and more coincidence. Thr y have liaised with the world health organization and have had many experts analyze all cases raised to them.
People complaining are the minority but are shouting much louder.
They can’t go completely underground and have said they will try to go underground where possible.
Gary Patton. You are telling pure lies. Nobody anywhere near these pylons have a positive attitude to them. RTE TV couldn’t find one farmer for their “ear to the ground” programme who was planning to allow Eirgrid onto their land.
Do you think the ear to the ground program or the prime time program was fair Thomas.
Everyone is saying that there is backhanders and corruption going on etc. Those two programs were not a fair reflection on the facts.
I have seen people first hand enqyiring over how much in compensation will they get for Pylons on their land etc. That is all the proof I need.
I am city guy and I’m not a big nature fan, I’m not saying what they are doing is right or wrong just trying to give my opinion. Do I agree with this article, yes I do. Do I think they should continue with the projects yes I do.
Should they go underground where possible, yes if it is of benefit both environmentally and financially.
These are just my opinions Thomas.
You put them across as facts Gary!?!
“But on the other hand, why have EirGrid been so obtuse and dismissive of concerns? ”
Thats because they have bypassed the legally binding assessments and safeguards under The Aarhus Convention. They know it and hence their urgency in getting the things up as quick as possible , so that any legal action taken will be too late – the horse will have bolted.
Thats a poor mans way of attempting to implement the legally binding assessments and safeguards of the Aarhus Convention. They never did an SEA. NREAP which contains GRID 25 was ruled as non-compliant by The UN Aarhus Convention Compliance Committee.
The citizens rights have been trampled on.
Ask Eirgrid if they will give specific guarantees that they will not be privatized!
Can’t wait to see all these magnificent pylons enhance the beauty of this country! What a great, and obviously well thought out, idea this is. Why put the lines underground when we can build them towering in the air for all to see and be amazed at their splendour!
Yet another depressing comment.Should you not be off booking holidays to undesirable locations ya miserable sod!
Your comment is not depressing at all, really brightened my day! Glad to see you address the issues pointed out in this article too
Yeah Kian, don’t you know this plan was thought out by your betters and you should be glad they even revealed its magnificence to you?
I am truly honoured :P
Under ground with underground chambers like they do in other countries. Our TDs give us bargain basement services for Harrods prices. All the while their friends and relatives line their own pockets from advisors to consultants.
Says John Power in a study conducted on behalf of Eirgrid
The past 10 years they have been giving out engineering degrees to anyone alot of enginners i have came across are educated to a very low standard
A lot of them could still probably spell ‘engineer’ though
This will be the downfall of this government.
What is or was the status quo in other countries or before is simply not good enough for the Irish people, not to mention our unique landscapes or habitats or communities.
If the engineers are that good where are the alternatives to the pylons?
We have to make a stand on this lads and lasses.
Together.
For our future.
For every generation of Irishman and Irishwoman.
If they are put overground now, I believe a future generation will put them underground, how expensive then ?
This article is spin developed to gauge opinion.
Glad to know we have the best engineers in the world. It gives me a warm fuzzy nostalgic feeling for the old days when we had the best bankers in the world.
Well they would say that wouldnt they
An engineer friend of mine has said there are serious breaches of ethical and professional standards in Engineering Ireland. He says they are well aware that GRID 25 is in breach of environmental law but they are still pressing ahead. These unethical engineers stand to gain from wind subsidies which is the sole reason for the pylons. There are 11 other sources of renewables but they choose to go with the most expensive option.
So engineers are economists now
Lets have real facts as opposed to simplistic statements like
“Put simply, a strong infrastructure is the foundation for economic prosperity.”
Here is a pre budget submission from the American Chamber of Commerce – The Voice of US Companies in Ireland
http://www.amcham.ie/663/pre-budget-submission-2010
“The price of energy to Irish industry has more than doubled during this decade making it the biggest contributor to the cost base after wages. Ireland’s ability to continue retaining and attracting high levels of foreign direct investment is impacted by Ireland’s capacity to deliver a secure and sustainable energy supply at a competitive cost.
The American Chamber has called on the Government to state a target for reductions in the cost of gas and electricity production and delivery to business. The Chamber endorses the recommendations made by the National Competitive Council (October 2009), on seeking efficiency gains in both gas and electricity markets.[12] Furthermore, the Chamber’s members are strongly of the view that energy prices and tariff structures must be transparent to ensure that prices are fully cost reflective. Non-fuel cost structures should be aligned with international benchmarks for the cost of producing and delivery of energy.”
So this infrastructure proposed will further increase the cost of energy in Ireland driving out American companies.
have your say