Don’t want to read the story then don’t click on it, simple really, so please stop whinning as some of us really do care about the struggles of transgendered people.

Maybe if you pray to your god perhaps she will compel the journal to write more hetro-friendly articles?

@maggie

What is a mental health issue, pray tell….?

Read the article Matthias, its not rocket science

I contacted the Journal last week about the monies that were going to Enda Kennys Mayo for housing grants and they never did the story …I gave them facts and percentages and details of discussions that I had with the Ministers office ….I’ve copped onto their agenda

I agree Macy. Though I’m atheist, I note that the comments directed at Catholics are very often in breach of the comments policy. The same comments policy was used as an excuse earlier today to shut down the comments on the Roma article. Yet, attacks on people due to their religious beliefs are never moderated – though this too is not allowed in the comments policy.

The journal is a bastion of selective moderation.

The articles tend to play to the audience, maximise hits, look at us we’re a trendy and alternative news source type thing. When in truth there’s rarely alternative viewpoints expressed by columnists, news ‘selection’.

Sooner or later, the journal will find themselves in hot water as a result.

@Maggie

Sorry, I thought you was one of them religious zealots, claiming gay or transgender people are sick and can be “cured”….

@Sam

The difference is that you are born into a certain ethnicity without having a say but you do choose what you belief in and therefore should be allowed to get tackled a bit harder in a public forum….

No chance. They have an agenda and it’s being rammed down the throat of anyone who comes near the site!

“I thought you was”, that is simply appallingly bad grammar.

I’ve no objection to your poins and don’t believe in censorship one way or the other Matthias. However. The Journal either have rules for everyone or they don’t. Selectively applying them is in itself discriminatory and should be opposed by all of us IMO.

@Owen

It is indeed master Owen, surprised you have been able to spot it though….given your own rather difficult relationship with your English mother tongue….as proven many times in various threads…

Perhaps if you actually read the comments policy you might understand what is happening?

The comments are not moderated. There’s a report comment button and if someone wants to report a comment, they can. This is what draws the attention of the staff.

As for attacking people because of their religion – are you sure you don’t see people attacking the religion itself? Because that happens quite frequently – attacks against a person commenting – such as calling people names or demeaning them directly is not permitted. Attacking an idea is a different thing altogether, an idea cannot take offence. It’s followers might – but that is down to them and no one else.

“The comments are not moderated”

That’s called a get out of jail clause Shanti. That’s lawyer speak in action on that bit. Do you seriously believe the comments are not moderated?

I’ve seen some stuff get left up that usually wouldn’t, I’ve also seen stuff taken down which usually wouldn’t get taken down – I’ve noticed people responding to comments which they say they have reported – which is just as well because at that stage the comment they are referring to is gone.
I’ve had to report comments myself – and they don’t always get removed.

So, I don’t think they are moderated in the sense that someone goes through each comment and deletes as they see fit, no. Because there’s no consistency to the removal, I can only assume that if an insulting comment is still there it’s because it wasn’t reported.

Well, I have my doubts. I’ve seen comments posted on a fresh thread that disappeared in 30 or 40 seconds. In no way could someone have reported it in that timeframe and have it removed too – I’m not suggesting some weren’t always worthy of immediate removal, but others were not to any reasonable person IMO.

You can be damn sure Shanti these threads are monitored constantly. For if anything libelous is published, no publication waits around for someone to report it. None.

And your point on the realtime posting aspect to the journal, which I appreciate, confirms that 100%.

Can yo imagine if they ended up in court due to a libelous post, and the prosecution asked was it not moderated?

Sorry Shanti, but common sense/business sense/and lawyers dictate you’re way off.

I have also had times where I am posting but my post doesn’t come up – or it comes up but when I leave the article and return later it’s gone despite the fact that it wasn’t anything offensive, libellous or anything else – I have on occasion wondered if I had been banned and been racking my brains trying to figure out what it was I did to get banned.. But then my account starts working again..

So I’d imagine there’s quite a few tech glitches too.

I can take your point about the libellous comments – but as the comments policy is there and specifically states that the comments are not moderated, that would usually let them off the hook for not taking the comment down immediately. Obviously if it was libellous, it would have to be taken down as soon as it was marked as such.

Had my comment deleted on Monday, when I mentioned about the amount of homosexuals in the church.

So why don’t you prattle off to the press ombudsman if you really think they’ve done something wrong? By the way, you only have an expectation to freedom of speech from the state, not from a private company and they have no obligation to give you a platform, this is a situation you will find repeated with groups such as the Irish Catholic, the Daily Mail and the Independent.

And John, if they did stop the Church bashing, religion bashing – as it’s well and truly exhausted at this point, it may open up a proper debate and encourage more contributors from immigrant communities and many other religions that read these comments on the journal, but don’t engage beneath the line as they’re turned off by the badgering, to post themselves.

Likely David, he could make a complaint, as could others on here subjected to racism and other aspects – including homophobia.

But David, this ”why don’t you go elsewhere if you don’t like it” attitude should be ringing alarm bells.

I think what John, Martin and Sam fail to realise is that, just because you can’t burn people at the stake any more, or lock them away in religious institutions, for having a different viewpoint to you, or not complying with your definition of ‘normal’, it doesn’t mean you’re being persecuted or silenced in any way, it just means that Ireland has changed from the halcyon days you so miss, and as a result, we live in a more open society, where at last we are allowed discuss these topical issues, newsworthy issues and educational issues. You’re free to debate here with people you disagree with, you know yourselves when you’ve over-stepped the mark, but then cry foul when comments are rightly deleted. I don’t agree with the deletion of the comments all of the time either, but I think The Journal staff get it right 99% of the time.

You all constantly give out about liberals, lefties and mysterious agendas, yet miss the delicious irony that if weren’t for the aforementioned minded people people you wouldn’t be able to comment here at all. If you think there’s censorship here, you should check out some of the right-wing Facebook pages and websites relating to certain groups who are a vocal minority in this country and see how many comments get deleted there, for even the slightest questioning of their policies, it’s put up or shut up time guys. Don’t like it, don’t visit it.

@David Jordan, but David are you not concerned about your gay brothers in the church,are you not worried that they will be suffering homophobic insults? Do you not wonder why the church don’t defrock these priests and exile them?

As if you care anyway Martin!? Why are you asking David for his opinion when you historically care nothing for homosexuals in your comments?

” it just means that Ireland has changed from the halcyon days you so miss”

Yes it has. And it’s you, not me, living in the past. My point is that we’ve moved on as a society. We moved on close to 20 years ago. It’s you that rehashing and regurgitating the same points Gaius. The battle of the Church or free thinking ended years ago. Seems to me you are the one that missed that. Of course you can bring in the straw men such as youth defence and Iona if you wish. Most do.

“I think The Journal staff get it right 99% of the time” – I don’t. There under the same yoke as many have been in previous generations with the Church. Closed mindedness.

“You all constantly give out about liberals, lefties and mysterious agendas, yet miss the delicious irony that if weren’t for the aforementioned minded people people you wouldn’t be able to comment here at all.”

Actually, it has nothing to do with lefties, liberals or anything else. It has to do with spotting a gap in the market, an investment, and making money. That crosses all boundaries and groupings. And the moderation on the journal is an excercise in ass covering more than anything else. Not just legal, but a terror of being on the wrong side of public opinion moreso than anything.

Sorry Sam, until there is a complete separation of church and state in this country we certainly have not moved on, and until the church stops publicly admonishing people over things which they have no control, interfering in policy in sovereign states etc. the criticism will not end.

I personally find it infuriating that it’s so obvious in our own country that the church still has a hold and sway over certain politicians, and by no means a minority of politicians, whatever they want to preach in their churches and in private, fair enough, but you can’t deny that’s not the case. This country is a republic; ‘a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch.’ not a theocracy; ‘a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god’.

Point me to a popular news website in this country that is more tolerant in it’s comments section and I’ll agree with you straight away on that count.

I never mentioned Iona or Youth Defence, funny you should reach that conclusion from what I said. :)

I’m no more happy about it than you are. I’m atheist to the core. But I do believe in balanced and argumentative media coverage rather than a servile media.

The media were just as bad as the politicians and Church – yet they are the only ones left unchallenged. They are still getting away with it. They were central in our crash too as the tribunal declared.

Take the Journal for example. It’s owned by daft.ie a major player in the market. Daft sold myhome.ie to the IT for 50 million before the crash. The crowd behind daft also own boards.ie and adverts.ie afaik. The IT are barely surviving and will need a property rebound to stay in business. The journal are intrinsically linked too through daft, so it’s also in their parent companies interest. These are businesses. That’s all. But they have an agenda – to increase revenue. Nothing wrong with that. But I always question my news sources.

I use all of the above websites and services regularly. The house I’m in now I got through daft. The car I’m driving I got through adverts, I regularly seek out advice on boards.ie. I’m glad of their services.

But try to find a poster complaining about daft.ie on the boards.ie.

The problem is that the balance you are talking about is from a viewpoint that has no basis in science,equality,logic or the betterment of society,it’s like giving the North Koreans equal voice,50/50 on human rights,economic policy,nutrition,it doesn’t benefit anyone,it’s so farcical,if there were peer reviewed studies to countenance gay rights issues,women’s rights etc. of course they should be given an equal voice. To date,as far as I’m aware,no one has bothered to submit such an article. I like you am completely sceptical about everything I read and believe that no matter how much an article appeals to my views or nature I should research the claims made in that article from a number of authoritative and reliable sources before I’m satisfied as to it’s trustworthiness.

I find it quite laughable that people who give out about the “censorship” seem to have never bothered reading the comments policy..
The comments aren’t moderated – on other news sites, the indo for example – comments await moderation before appearing. Here – your comment shows up, and if another user finds it objectionable they can report the comment to the staff who may or may not delete it.
In terms of “moderation” and “censorship” on a news outlet – this is probably about as free as you are likely to get, in Ireland anyway. This doesn’t mean absolute freedom – it couldn’t. As you say, they’re a business with costs to cover. And if certain topics attract a lot of page views then they would be idiots not to keep with them. Of course – all those complaining of an over saturation of certain story topics can’t seem to stop themselves giving the page another hit and raising it’s profile can they? So in their indignation, they help create the very thing they object to..

I think we’re broadly in agreement.

One other point you raised though. Peer reviewed studies have a limited use, and more often than not are overused and suffer the same fate as the media also. yes peer reviewed research is important. But you don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing either.

Peer reviewed research on gay parenting for example (and I’m one myself) is well known for its limitations. Most of it concentrated on white, middle class, college educated, lesbian parents. It actually found that children raised by gay couples fared better in education and many other areas. But that”s not to say the research will be true for everyone else.

These days I have my doubts about peer reviewed research too as in itself it can cause imbalances and be one sided and can be skewed in its use as a result. Feminism is the ultimate in that sense.

“In terms of “moderation” and “censorship” on a news outlet – this is probably about as free as you are likely to get, in Ireland anyway”

Far from it. The IT moderation is far more liberal. Way more.

I have no experience of the IT one, it usually doesn’t display the comments if I visit their site – so I will have to take your word on that one :)
With regards peer reviewed research, we strike common ground again – I think it’s safe to say that children who grow up in a nurturing, stable environment, with parents who have a deep level of respect not only for one another, but also for the rather important role of parenting a child – will fare just fine.
I really don’t think the parents sexuality is relevant unless they want their kids to watch or participate (as many high profile cases involving heterosexual parents have done). And I would hope it goes without saying that those types of parents should never be permitted care for a child – regardless of their sexuality.

Peer review sadly *has* started to lose credibility in some spheres, spawning epidemiological research to try and clean up the mess, which in time will be corrupted too sadly, possibly even already – because there will always be dishonest people who push themselves to prominence in order to sway opinions. Usually they hitch hike on a popular movement and distort it beyond all recognition.. That’s been going on as long as we’ve been recording (and rewriting) history..

Martin was that the 12th time this week? Give it a rest

john i absolutely love your comment,its spot on the journal and other outlets like to pretend to be balanced and have journalistic integrity but you arent allowed to disagree with a lot of things said on here,like the clown below tried to say if you disagree with any aspect of homosexuals or anything remotely related to them you are “homophobic” have a problem with an aspect of immirgration ?? you’re a racist,state of israel ?? anti-semetic ,i hate to agree with anyone at rte but thats mans comment was right what we have today is liberalism dressed up as fascism and i am not saying people should be allowed abuse anyone else but expressing a opinion is allowed and in fact needed form a well informed balanced society and as for the below comment that says you arent entitled to free speech from a private company well thats fair enough but you certainly can expect it from journalists !!!

I agree in some respects Gerard. I agree with John in some respects too. But the ‘obligation’ they have is to the people that run and own the company and not you or I. That’s understandable. They are not a charity. But they are actors. They need you more than you need them – the audience.

I suspect there are some very frustrated people working there that realize exactly the points we are making, and also think the same things themselves.

But they are not free to submit proper articles because the journal’s format is to let the columnists…experts….suffer the wrath.

No. The Journalists themselves are the people that should be held to account. Not the columnists.

Whoever on the journal acts as editor is an agenda driven and close minded. Everyone else is on a tight lease.

very true sam you make some excellent points i am just a little bit more cynical though and wouldnt be as quick to absolve people of their sins !!

“I think what John, Martin and Sam fail to realise is that, just because you can’t burn people at the stake any more, or lock them away in religious institutions,”

That is where you are so wrong.

We still do secret witch court hearings in Ireland.

We burn people who are different in a different way- mental torture, taking their property- same as the Inquisition.

We use ECT on children who are different- gifted- and deemed not normal.

We exorcise children who are different- we deem them possessed.

etc, etc.

Er, were you unaware of ALL the other articles on the website?

Ah yes, but it keeps the sheeple busy and not focusing on Them.

It also keeps the patriarchal divide and rule agenda going.

It is succeeding too, by the looks of the comments.

If the comment bothers you so much, why read it?

I think you have a point Paul. Though I wouldn’t have expressed it in the same way.

We tend to think that equality is simple. It isn’t. I’d be more than happy for intersex and trans people to be supported and helped in areas that it’s needed.. But sometimes, it cannot be facilitated in law without causing an inequality to many others.

The journal is a bad platform, possibly the worst mainstream one, for such discussions IMO.

Sam,
You are correct. I could have been more subtle in my criticism of Louise’s article, but I feel strongly that she pushes her agenda without any thought of consequences for wider society.
Firstly, I support the idea that birth certificates should be amended. I do not support gender certificates. Creating a legal definition of “intersex” is a bad idea. Parents who are raising children should have the right to amend an incorrect entry, and Civil Registration Act 2004 permits this… To a degree. An adult has the right to have the same, which Lydia Foy fought for.
That said, at 16, children are still minors. They cannot consent to sex, so why force them to choose as children.

And of course Paul, your view is informed by your extensive experience with transgendered children, because as we all know, cisgendered people know far more about what transgendered children need then say…other transgendered people and transgender advocates.

David,
The law dictates that sexuality is an adult choice. Until children become adults, their parents make the choices. It doesn’t make it any easier, but it protects children from making choices they may later regret.
Do not ignore my comment regarding my support for the possibility of changing entries on the register of births.

‘The law dictates that sexuality is an adult choice.’ But we are not talking about sexuality we’re talking about gender.

‘Do not ignore my comment regarding my support for the possibility of changing entries on the register of births.’
Which you only support be cause it would serve your own interests.

Exactly David.
We post here because we wish to promote opinion that serves our own interests.

Actually,

The law dictates that sexual intercourse is an adult choice.

Gender and sexuality are entirely separate. e.g male is a gender.

Markeen, I support transgender teens in their campaign for recognition and all I ask is that I too am supported in mine. I doubt you’ve given any thought about young wizards in Ireland and how difficult life is for them right now. You are only concerned about those who conform to your own narrowly defined ideas on identity and self. That is incredibly ignorant. Now be gone lest I cast a spell on you.

TRy being a Jedi knight I tell ya.The amount of times I am orderd to remove my hood when entering post offices and banks is unbeliveable

If only others were as evolved as you. You have it all worked out.

Archetypes and all aspects of the Whole/Holy One

I’m sure as a fascist that you just love liberals Eoin.

@John

What an intelligent and sophisticated addition to the debate….your intellectual contribution will be awarded with your inclusion into the “Hall Of Fame” of ignorance and simple-minded ness ….Congratulations, you really make Homer Simpson like Einstein, well done…keep up the good work, your parents must be proud of you….

I don’t hate them. Fools such as Petr are wrong and misinformed, but they are still entitled to believe whatever they like.

@Matthias. I felt those 3 words were an apt description of my views on this article.

@Matthias. “simple-minded ness” ? What is that, perhaps there is no translation from German?

I’m sure you’ll be recognized into the ““Hall Of Fame” of ignorance and simple-minded ness” long before I my German friend….

@John

These 3 words being your view on these topics basically proves my point….

Apart from that a rather lifeless reply, predictable and simple (once again…there seems to be a pttern there…) and boring to the extreme….you let yourself down there, Johnnyboy

Thanks Vlad.

In other news, gays cause stormy weather!

Dick swab does he not treat std’s.

Don’t be stupid Alan

in fairness saoirse its far from a simple issue and if you cant see how the two are confused then you are being either obtuse or are just plain stupid

Oh I must be stupid for seeing a difference between gender and sexuality!

see saoirse i never said you were stupid for making a distinction between gender and sexuality i suggested you’d have be stupid or obtuse not see how people could get confused,do you see the difference in what i am saying ??

Please explain to me the connection between the Rainbow Flag coloured fingers and this article. I see no gay issue here.
Why, why, why did you use the ‘gay flag?’

LGBT i would think,stop being so sensitive stop,stop,stop

It’s probably impossible to say how many young trans people there are but as long as it helps those who do want to transition during/before puberty it’s all good whether it 10 or a 10,000 :)

What makes you think I’ll get hysterical? You make some valid points and I probably can’t fight my case as eloquently as you, all I can say is speaking as a transgender woman with plenty of personal experience I know this legislation is a really positive step…

well thats more than fair and it’s not personal just most people turn hysterical especially when it comes to sensitive subjects such as this,you surprised me on both accounts tbh

Furthermore you mention about 16yr olds making irrational decisions, by enacting this legislation it does not remove all the obstacles for young people wishing to medically transition, as far as I’m aware they will still need to get a diagnosis from a psychologist and sometimes a second opinion too before accessing any kind of treatment.

i thought we had agreed to disagree !!!! that is fair enough and makes sense even though you arent very sure but lets say you are righ for the sake of argument,speaking from experience and having a brother currently that age,it does not matter how may experts or adults talk to a teenager.they are stubborn willful and think they know everything !!! isnt that the problem with teenagers ?? they figure out a few minor things in life,grow abit of hair down below and suddenly they know everything about the world and everyone in it and woe to anyone who tries to tell them otherwise !!

I am sure that’s the case now with regards to accessing treatment, just unsure if there’s changes in the upcoming gender recognition bill. I believe you can be 16 and be fully aware what gender you are. I’ll leave it there. I agree to disagree! lol

Don’t be afraid to speak your mind Saoirse.

You’ll be shouted down here and elsewhere regardless. All of us go through that.

You don’t need to “leave it there”. All you need to do is in your own time make the odd post about your own experiences. It doesn’t have to be about the law, morals, rights, Church, media – all of that stuff is bullshite anyway.

Gerard is offering his point of view from his side of the street. So do I, so do you. It doesn’t mean any of us are right or wrong.

Stick around.

Ah yes the old hysterical- hysteria- hysterectomy – womb haters.

Like the Irish judges in 2014 trained to see all women as feeble minded/mentally ill.

Nothing has really changed behind the scenes.