So, who are the supposed combatants?

It won’t be reported as terrorism in America unless the assailant is Arabic. Simples.

Where in the article does it say he’s motivated by religion?

If the French shooters went into an army base. That is not terrorism. Directed at non involved people is terrorism. In the same vein, directed at abortion doctors (BTW I am pro choice 100%, an atheist, and believe that all religion is nurs) would be perceived as direct perpetrators of abortion and thus not terrorism. If the crazy gunman shot up a movie theater in the name of stopping abortion because of Jesus, that would be terrorism. Hence I think it is correct to frame him as a murderous religious nut job.

Hannibal, let’s be realistic, he is not motivated by the flying spaghetti minster.

It is classed as terrorism by the US Dept of Justice. It comes under the heading of domestic terrorisim http://www.justice.gov/usao/priority-areas/national-security/domestic-terrorism

@Peter Barry…… Unless Hussein Obama has any say!In which case it’ll be classifies as workplace violence as in the case of Nidal Malik Hasan shooting 13 and wounding 32 at Fort Hood 2009.
His local Imam referred to Hasan as a very devout Muslim.

Christian terror?

Islamic terror?

no contest!

Onward Christian Combatants……how backward are thee!!

Amazing how you all know the motivations of this guy. No such information has been released by any official source, yet you can all sense what’s going on in a diseased mind because of where the shooting is “near”.

”

Christian terror?

Islamic terror?

no contest!
”
Stick to the actual topic please
“Several people injured in shooting outside Planned Parenthood clinic
An “active shooter” situation is still ongoing in the city of Colorado Springs.”

whoever did the shooting is not a Christian but a nutter

Patrick J O’CONNOR “Hussein Obama” def a tea bagger Yank ….
your rantings have nothing to do with the article

What else could the motivation be but to murder PP employees and save the pre born babies?

@Dunlkle Holiday……WUF….WUF…OFF!

or maybe the regressive left will jump on it and say its not only Islam?

Bible in one hand, shotgun bought at quickiemart in other….. Life is sacred….. For white good christian folk only….

“whoever did the shooting is not a Christian but a nutter”

Don’t kid yourself Dingle, there are loads of Christian nutters out there – all working for Jesus!

I really don’t understand what has happened here but I hope all the people involved survive.

Two civilians and one police officer died, Colorado Springs police chief Peter Carey told reporters about an hour after the suspect had been arrested.

No it’s not

Nonsense. Christianity is a religion of peace. You’re racist for implying otherwise.

The real danger here is that attitudes like yours will trigger Christian-o-phobic hate crimes. #illridewithu Christians.

Lorem i assume you are been sarcastic

terrorists are motivated by hate / anger
NOT religion

I agree with you Dingle. The problem is that they use religion to try and justify their crimes.

Of course James ..
just look at Northern Ireland during the Troubles etc
and of course easy access to weapons in the USA does not help the matter

Some conflicts are driven by religion. To say they are not is to purposely try to rewrite large swathes of history in the name of political correctness.

If you don’t like a religion’s fundamentalists, then you don’t like that religion’s fundamentals.

“Some conflicts are driven by religion.”
hmm not exactly if you are talking about the 20th century and modern times …
Pray tell Are you talking about Northern Ireland – Protestants and Catholics ???? – a wee bit more complicated and the same with Bosnia etc

@Ben. Nowadays we seem to think that fundamentalists use guns and bombs are the only fundamentalists and all others indifferent, moderate, or staunch.

I would consider anyone that wants to enforce their religion on the children of anyone else a fundamentalist. We have lots of those in this country.

Your so-called ‘Christian nut job’ robbed a bank and tried to make his getaway through the abortion clinic next door. Don’t you hate it when a narrative falls apart? Anyway, you’ll be pleased to know that if anyone lost their life in Planned Parenthood so far today it was taken by Planned Parenthood themselves.

Ellie, you’re completely wrong. He targeted PP.

Ellie, can you link to a reputable news site confirming your version of events? It would almost be a relief if it was just some crook on the run and not some so called pro-life nutjob on a spree.

The brain is an amazing organ. It works 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year from before you are even born, right up until the day you find religion.

@James Joseph – Christian New Testament doctrine does not command Christians to kill anyone – so it is unlikely he is a Christian. The Koran on the other hand is a different matter…

He came not to bring peace to the earth but a sword.. Matthew 10:34..

And FYI, the Torah and New Testament are considered just as holy as the Koran to a Muslim.

lol

God wasn’t “pro-life” -didn’t he carry out mass abortion to the women of Ephraim ?

Three weeks before Friday’s Planned Parenthood shooting, a man was seen brandishing a rifle while walking down the streets of Colorado Springs on Halloween morning. A concerned citizen called the 911 Emergency Line to notify the police, but was told by the operator: “Well, it is an open carry state, so he can have a weapon with him or walking around with it,” referencing state laws that allow the brandishing of a firearm in public.

Shortly after the call the man shot and killed three people before being shot dead by police.

@the dude…..Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament….Mathew 3:17,12. Guess that covers it.

@Shanti – if you read the full context if Matthew you will see that he is not referring to actual violence – but rather to division among certain people v36 “a mans enemies will be those of his own family.” It is because of their belief as Christians that will put out others they know.

As for the Koran. It is not a holy book at all. In fact – the description of Allah in the Koran is the exact description of satan in the bible. Followers of Allah say they love death. God in the bible says he is the author of life and loves life.

@rosie – is the story of ephraim New Testament Christian doctrine – or was it written in the Old Testament in relation to the ancient Israelites Rosie?

@Panti – Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law.

Romans 3: 21-23

By the way – I couldn’t find the relevance of the verse you referenced. You may have made a typo.

Dude, you are always gonna find a way to make your religion look better because you have a vested interest. Truth is ALL holy books can be twisted to suit whatever view point you wish to express, sure look at Jesus Camp, they’ve found reason to form a Christian militia..
Just as you can find fluffy, lovely dovey crap in your book of fairy tales, so can a Muslim find hippie dippie crap in theirs. Same way the KKK used the bible to justify their persecution of black people and for years white Christians excused slavery.
But yes, remind us how I’m taking the bus let out of context and you’re not doing exactly the same thing to the Koran.

Enjoy hell you hypocrite. You’re the only type of person. Jesus guaranteed was going there. For your pious judgement and self righteousness, truly you already have your reward in full.

@Shanti – you say the bible is a fairy tale, and yet you invoke the words of Jesus to condemn me – a believer in Christ. How interesting.

On the issue of slavery – nearly all black slaves were kidnapped and sold into slavery by their own and Islamic traders. Also, over one million white people were taken and sold into slavery all over the Mediterranean and as far north as Denmark by Islamic traders up to the 1800s – and into the twentieth century by the ottomans.

One of the main reasons for the end of the slave trade was because of the role of ‘Christians’ such as William Wilburforce.

The untold story of white slaves.
http://youtu.be/_ednt48rcwo

It’s a fairy story just like the others, you get to refer to the Koran while decrying it as lies – oh dear, I guess that’s more hypocrisy on your part.. Remember what your saviours aid about hypocrites, while it means nothing to me it should mean quite a lot to you..

I’m guessing next you’ll be claiming that the KKK were all Muslims too.. That the white man has absolutely nothing to do with colonialism, slave trafficking or anything else. Sure it’s all those nasty Muslims that you’re not at all discriminating against…

Remind me, what’s the relevance of Muslims to this story again?? Where a WHITE REPUBLICAN (so very likely prolife christian) went to a planned parenthood and shot a load of people and had a canister of propane with wires hanging out of it in his vehicle?

Did the evil Muslims make him do it? I mean, it’s not like anyone has ever killed in the name of the God of the Bible now is it?

Oh wow.. The white slavery retort.. I’ve seen it all now..

@the dude if u were born in Iraq u would be Muslim. Your god is geographical. Like the other 3,500 worshipped on this planet. Uve some arrogance believing your god is the right one.

@Panti – if you knew your history, you would know that nearly all what are now considered Muslim countries, were once Christian nations – until they were invaded, pillaged, murdered and raped out of there by the religion of peace. But of course nothing they do has anything to do with Islam – we are continually told.

@Shanti – Again I ask you, where in New Testament Christian doctrine are Christians COMMANDED to go out and kill others in the name of Christ? If you don’t have an answer to that, then please be quiet. Muslims ARE commanded to kill unbelievers by their so called prophet. That is the difference.

Which part of my historical and factual comments on white slaves do you find disagreeable?

How does that explain Hindus in India and worshipers of thor? Lame attempt to be honest

Hmmm, Europe used to be filled with other belief systems, until they were brutalised and converted to Christianity, but I guess those guys were doing the work of Satan too, after all, it’s so much easier to pretend an external force is the culprit than engage in self reflection..

Il tell u one thing about religion, it’s giving the world hope thats torn apart by religion.

@Panti – The Islamic invasion murdered about 70 million people in India. Where do you think Pakistan came from! But you don’t seem to know much about history really – do you – and you also, in an earlier comment mentioned how people’s brains shut down when they find religion. How ironic indeed.

@Shanti – the history of the initial spread of Christianity is laid out in the book of Acts. It was not spread by brutality. Other historical evils such as the inquisition, were certainly brutal – and although such people involved in that may have claimed to be believers – they were not following the teaching of Christ as laid out in the New Testament.

My point is this – people are corrupt and always will be. So it is not what people do, rather it is what the New Testament says and teaches. Jesus himself said that false teachers will be recognised by their fruits. He also said in John 16 that there will “be a time when they kill you, believing they are doing a service to God”.

In fact that quote is quite apt where Islam is concerned as Islamic doctrine teaches that unbelievers of Islam must be subdued and killed if necessary. So, what your average Muslim claims is irrelevant – it is the scriptural doctrine that counts.

Yeah yeah point the finger,forget about the crusades ect. and the fact that your god killed approx 2.5million people in your bible. But let’s cherry pick from it. All 3,500 religions are man made cults of which you are a member of a mere one.

Ok Dude..
Uou wanna talk about context, then you speak about the Koran instructing Muslims to kill and ignore all the context inherent within that..
You also seem to wish to ignore how the Koran would actually condemn those terrorists, but hey, whatever suits your desire to feed into the same us vs them mentality that all monotheistic traditions share.

It’s that “we are the righteous and holy” nonsense that creates this notion that somehow believing in one religion makes one a better person than another. And we have already seen where it leads.. Rewind just over a century and look at the rhetoric spewed about Jews around Europe and the US, y’know, CHRISTIAN nations. Asking “The Jewish Question”.. I mean, their holy book instructs them to” utterly destroy” anyone who stands in their way. They’re the “chosen people” after all.. And hey, they killed Christ!
We all look back on this blatant anti semitic rhetoric and see it for what it was now, now after that same rhetoric led to the ghettoisation of the Jews, the mistrust (sure weren’t they trying to take over the world through, what was it now – the sexualisation of the media eroding Christian values, as well as the banking systems and somehow Communism too), ultimately it led to a psychopath managing to round them all up and seize their property.. Among other things..

That us vs them mentality is not beneficial to anyone. Muslims are people, just like Christians, Jews, atheists, Hindus etc – some are good people and some aren’t. Some will focus on the positive aspects of their beliefs and others will want to frame those beliefs in such a way that they can deem themselves better or more worthy than those who don’t share those beliefs..
After all, anything that’s not Christian is the work of Satan and must be stopped, right?

@Shanti – Yes of course Muslims are people. However if you read my comments you will see that I am specifically referring to Islamic doctrine – as laid out in the Koran etc and what it instructs Muslims to do. Groups such as Isis are merely following that scripture to the letter and the example if their false prophet – who killed hundred by his own hand.

As far as the Nazis you referred to – well they weren’t really Christians, were they? In fact they hated Christianity and were a New religion unto themselves.

@Panti – please stop commenting because your lack of basic historical knowledge is exposed the more you write.

Firstly the crusades were a defensive conflict.

God did not kill 2.5 million people in the bible. The Old Testament regarding the ancient Israelites shows God instructing them to kill various tribes. The reason for this is that these tribes were engaged in wicked practices such as child and human sacrifices, black magic arts etc. kind of equivalent to a modern day Isis.

Lol of cooourse, the Marie weren’t really Christian, but ISIS are really Muslim..

Thats cheap dude.. No true Scotsman and all that..
Face it, your cult makes up part of their religion. Their religion instructs them to adhere more closely to the laws of Abraham than the “hypocrites” that came before them..
Christianity has become more like the Pharisees that Jesus gave the same lecture about.. All it is is one big game of who can out do the other in their religious piety.. And when religions preach this “my religion is better than yours” crap, there will always be conflict.

Oh, and thus guy was a pro life Christian.. But you’ll tell me he wasn’t a real Christian, true to your fallacious ramblings here.. Because it doesn’t suit you for him to be.

Well first up they didn’t have guns then, and mass slaughter, cruelty, and needlessly exterminating life on a whim was commonplace, So yes, abortion is more akin to the dark ages he bemoans than a lone, crazed, individual with a gun.

No its not.

How do you plan to get rid of them?

Oh, and they like t deal in dead baby parts for backhanders, but you can sing their praises all you like Bevin.

What’s your point Pepper? It’s a family planning clinic, they provide multiple services to men and women.

My point is you were talking about ‘facts’ to Paul. But you only quoted selective ones to suit yourself.

Believe what you want; the fact is they provide a invaluable services to millions of people every year. Still trying to understand your point. Sounds like you’re trying to justify this nut job. Do you think he was saving babies by killing doctors and women who had appointments?

I’m not trying to justify anything. I’m trying to make a very simple point that you seem to be struggling with. You say they provide a ‘valuable service’ and I say they are the most destructive force in US society.

Pepper, the fact that the stories about them selling body parts have been proven to be false seems to have conveniently slipped your mind destroys any argument you have against other peoples “facts”.

Oh so you’re the arbiter of the debate then, Rasputin? I must have missed that memo. What about the 50 million aborted US citizens point you tired to neatly gloss over.

Ah, Pet, I’m not struggling with it all. In fact I know far more about it than you, clearly. Believe whatever bullshit stories you like. It’s time for you to get back in your box.

So what about the 50 million aborted US citizens Bevin? Collateral damage? Justifiable? You don;t have an issue with it?

What do you think the consequences of the US having an “estimated 50 million” more citizens would be today, considering the fact that 15% (approx. 45 million) of Americans already live below the poverty line?

What about the millions US citizens who weren’t born because of the free contraception provided by PP and similar clinics in the US? But see, I know these are things that you can’t comprehend so I’m not going to enter into futile conversation with an uneducated anti choice moron. Gu’luck

Bevin, less of the ad homs please. It’s the lowest form of discussion. It’s merely one step above abortion itself.

@Ben. Answering my question with your question is not a valid counterargument to mine.

If you want to answer my original question, I’ll then answer yours.

Bevin, do you seriously believe that contraception would not be available in the US if not for planned parenthood – with or without their abortion regime? Do you not think capitalism and other organisations wouldn’t have entered the affray to fill the void (a void you claim) like they have in every other comparable country in the world, or is your lust for blood so strong logical fallacies become your base position? Seems like that to me.

So good, he /she posted it twice. These are people who post on other threads about looming disaster from over population! When you boil it all down it comes to this: ” Lord, the woman tempted me “.

No, when it comes down to it liberals like you always fall back to the same default position, Rashers. Rather than debate you instead try to label others anti-women, misogynistic, or accuse you of seeing women as nothing but ‘’incubators’’.

Pro choicers on the Journal choose political correctness as their weapon of choice: it short-circuits the real discussion, hiding how the pro-choice position requires many ethical and moral acquiescences behind the jargon and soundbites. I believe, by and large, pro-choicers are unable to show their position is reasonable, and so they have to make it politically correct instead or, as you have a penchant for, lashing out from time to time but making no actual argument.

Pepper, you’re using blatant lies to further your debate. When you do that and it can be easily shown you loose credibility and therefore any right to call someone else on theirs. You’ve lied about Planned Parenthood selling body parts.You claim that there would be 50 million more Americans today if there was no abortion, another “fact” you have pulled from thin air to support your “argument”.That’s two “facts” you’ve fabricated.You’ve asserted that is a Republican becomes president that they can make abortion illegal. Again you’re incorrect. The arbiter of the debate is not me but the fact that nearly every statement you make is either incorrect or based on figures you’ve pulled out of your ass which you then try to bend to fit your narrative. Don’t blame the messenger.

The jury is still out on Planned Parenthood last I heard as investigations are still ongoing.

According to the Guttmacher Institute, since 1973, roughly 50 million legal induced abortions have been performed in the United States – thee Guttmacher institute IS Planned Parenthood. They are the same organisation. Of course, Bevin will have known that already. These are Planned Parenthood figures.

And as I said they can shut abortion down by pulling the funding from Planned parenthood- this very nearly happened this year.

Now, I’m not going to shoot the messenger. I’ve fabricated nothing. I’m simply clearly far better informed than you are, and so you’re in no position, clearly, to go shouting ‘fabrication’ or ‘facts’.

And where is your supporting evidence that all of those abortions were of a viable foetus?? Where is your evidence that there would be 50 million extra Americans? You’re arguing the hypothetical as fact and using an unrelated set of numbers to present it as an absolute truth.

Oh and you still haven’t addressed your other lies.

Hmm Elvis Pepper I am neither Pro or anti choice …
as I am male …
The article is about domestic terrorism …

Pepper.
1. Abortion amounts to 3% of planned parenthoods services, and receives no federal funding whatsoever – the federal funding goes toward sti testing, obgyn services, pap smears and all manner of other reproductive health services.
You are using the fallacy of composition.

2. Planned Parenthood asks women who are having abortions whether they would like to donate the remains to science, same way a mother can donate her born baby’s organs should they die. What is the ethical issue there?
Are you engaging in hyperbole?

3. PP are not selling organs, they receive reimbursement for the storage and transport of the donated tissue. If you think that they are selling them then you clearly have no idea what organs are worth.
But this has all been made very clear in the media, the fact that you choose to ignore it hints of tremendous cognitive dissonance.

4. The pro choice position is that we support women being able to make the choice that they feel is best for their personal situation. It doesn’t mean we want everyone to have abortions, it doesn’t mean that we don’t know what it ultimately means – it means that we realise that the contents of a woman’s womb are her and her partners business. Not ours. Their lives are theirs to live.
So your representation of the pro choice position is false, a straw man fallacy if you will.

5. If you think making abortion illegal stops it happening or that it only came into existence with Roe v Wade or Lord Steels Abortion Act then you are very much mistaken.
The evidence of this is still quite visible in much of the developing world, sky high maternal mortality rates due to backstreet abortion, higher rates of infanticide, higher rates of poverty, lower rates of female progression to third level education and training. If that is what you champion then I’m afraid you are a misogynist.

They have a combined revenue of US$1.3 billion, including roughly US$530 million in government funding such as Medicaid reimbursements. Your point is complete nonsense and totally incorrect. Do some research before you start throwing around terms like fallacy. A hint should have been the massive US hysteria this year at the Republican voting in the US senate which threatened to close PP down on the funding issue alone.

You, like Rasputin, are completely misrepresenting what I said and adding legs to it.

First up, I was talking about the US, as you damn well knew (the article heading as well as my many references should have given it away) but you clearly just wanted to go off on an unrelated rant about 3rd world countries and how I’m a misogynist. And in the same breath you mention the straw man fallacy? Give it rest. This isn’t a third world country, Shanti. And no, disagreeing with a pregnant woman killing her own off-spring doesn’t make you a misogynist either. Grow up ffs.

You as a pro-choicer may take the view that it’s up to the woman to decide for herself. I take the view that the life is deserving of protection. It’s very simple.

The pro-choice consent and bodily autonomy argument, I find troubling in that I’ve considered it for a long time and don’t see the rationale or justification behind it. It comes up over and over again, like a mantra. I see it on prochoice placards, see it on here constantly too, hear it on the radio and TV yet it doesn’t hold up under scrutiny in any way. In fact it’s sociopathic. That may sound extreme, but it meets the criteria – amoral and without remorse. When you put aside emotions and preconceptions it becomes patently obvious that only real way to justify abortion is to deny ethical principles we all share and believe in, in every other circumstance whether prochoice or pro-life. So why should abortion be any different? Why do pro-choicers expect a suspension of it just for them?

The argument goes that if a woman doesn’t give her consent to the presence, ‘imposition’ pro-choicers say, of the human developing inside her for 9 months then it is to be considered, by them, a massive breach of their personal liberties and bodily autonomy. Therefore, they argue, it makes her perfectly justified to take any means necessary to remove it – killing it.

Everyone knows that sex is what gets women pregnant, and everyone knows contraception can, and does, fail. So it seems to me to be impossible for her to say she consented to have sex but didn’t consent to the consequences of having sex. That’s like saying she consented to go joyriding with her boyfriend, but not to spend 9 months in prison after they accidentally ran the car off the road and into someone’s property. If something like that did happen, this comments section would be alight with condemnation from contributors and we’d collectively condemn it as amoral as it denies social responsibilities and concern for others. So the consent argument doesn’t hold up imo – unless in fringe cases like rape. And I also would vote in favour of FFA. For the rest of us though, we give implicit consent that goes along with shagging and so I think the consent argument falls down there straight away. To deny that is to take an amoral view that’s socially utterly destructive if we apply it anywhere else in society. It’s also a basic denial of the standards and caveat we all have to live by in life – actions have consequences. That’s why I use the term sociopathic. The attitude is sociopathic (I didn’t say the person was).

Applying another metric; is it really perfectly justifiable to kill someone, another human, that is causing you discomfort, or perhaps for a small minority, severe discomfort for 9 months? Is killing them a proportionate response? Is it a reasonable response? Would fatally poisoning, crushing, or dismembering them be considered justifiable and proportionate? If you take the view, as prochoicers do, that the foetus is intentionally forcing you to be an incubator (and current laws too they argue) while you (in your own head seemingly) have done nothing at all to bring on this unwelcome and unwarranted imposition (you’re the real victim), then I think you’ve got a problem. It’s as if prochoicers feel perfectly justified in claiming this growing life, the human foetus inside them, has come and kidnapped their bodies. I often wonder if some of them see themselves as Sigourney Weaver, a Ripley type character in Alien trying to contain this ‘foreign’ alien as if it had no place being there, when in fact the foetus is exactly where it should be and got their through the same method almost every other person reading this and in the world did and science & biology can attest to that.

The fact is the foetus is ‘imposing’ unintentionally, and you and your sexual partners actions put it there. The human inside you is unaware, was helpless to prevent it him/herself from being there, and you caused the problem in the first place by putting him/her there and now want to kill him/her and you think that’s justified? That’s sociopathic. Some prochoice people on here can shock me from time to time as their lust for blood and abortion is actually vindictive.

You may call me a misogynist all you like, or infer it if it makes you feel better or gives you some kind of warm fuzzy feeling of moral superiority. However, it’s your views and your position that is the extreme position in this country.

And, finally. I’d like to continue this discussion further sometime, but I have to sleep as I have to be in CUH maternity hospital tomorrow as my wife is 6 days over and we are having our second child. I’m a stay at home father primarily.

Which brings me to another point. Abortion is an abdication of parental responsibilities and nothing more in reality. It’s an opt-out of parenting. So why shouldn’t I also be able to abdicate those responsibilities as a father then? You not allowing me to do that makes you either a misandrist or a sanctimonious sexist hypocrite.(by your logic). I should be able to simply walk away at an early point in the pregnancy and have nothing more to do with following through on your logic.

On my logic, I take responsibility for my actions. That’s what the vast majority in this country do and long may it continue – despite your wishes to have abortion here.

And Shanti, as I said, here in Ireland we are increasingly taking responsibility. That’s why the teenaged pregnancy rate has halved in Ireland in he last 10 years alone and is continuing to plummet. So too are the numbers seeking abortions. in 2001, the total number of births to teenagers has decreased from 3,087 in 2001 to 1,381 in 2013, a decline of 55% over 12 years. This equates to a decrease in the teenage birth rate from 20 per 1000 of women aged 15-19 in population in Ireland in 2001 to 10.4 per 1000 of women aged 15-19 in population in 2013. It fell by another 300 last year.

Taking responsibility for your sex life is the answer. Not ending another life.

I wonder how many citizens the good ol’ US of A lost last night when Pepper was playing with Palm and her five sisters?

And I’ll also add that Shanti that my other almost 4 year old daughter is now spending the weekend with my sister-in-law while my wife and I are going into hospital tomorrow. My sister-in-law Stephanie, is an avid pro-choicer known to you and took her off up to my other sister-in-laws house to watch the toy show tonight. She’ll keep an eye on her and take great care of her for the weekend and Layla will have a ball with her.

We can have differing views in this debate Shanti without opting for cheap labels like misogynist.

1. If they removed funding they would not do anything to pass abortion services as those are privately funded. Its the other 97% of services that would be affected.. That would close down planned parenthood as it would affect the majority of their NON ABORTION RELATED SERVICES. So why did the Republicans try to get funding removed? Did they forget they are responsible for the law that prohibits federal funding from being used to fund abortion services already?

2. Autonomy.
If someone needed your blood or one of your kidneys or some bone marrow to stop them from dying, I cannot compel you to donate yours unless that is your express choice.
A foetus gets the privilege of being granted rights far and above that of any other human being. The right to straight up use another persons body without consent.
If you are carrying an organ donor card, I still can’t use your organs until after you die unless you say so. You have signed a card to say you gave your consent to donate them, but that consent is limited to after your death. And if you don’t have an organ donor card, then no one can use your organs, ever.

So not only do you think foetuses are some sort of extra special privileged human that deserves more rights than anyone else, you think pregnant women deserve less rights than corpses.
That’s more than a little dehumanising.

3. Sex is not solely for procreation. Look around you. For most mammals sex is a deeply unpleasant experience, hence why the females “go on heat”, it’s the only time the males will get any. Humans and dolphins and a few other species experience pleasure because we are actually less likely to conceive as a result of sex. Most fertilised eggs are flushed with the next menses, another large proportion spontaneously abort in the first trimester – in fact, this is precisely what the abortion pill causes, so spare me the colourful language of “dismemberment” that’s the evacuation procedure you are describing, not the abortion. And that procedure will be happening to at least one woman in that maternity hospital this evening, who’s miscarriage has failed to complete, spare a thought for her while you describe the procedure she’s undergoing as though it’s some sort of bad thing.

And why did I mention the third world? Because it’s the only place where abortion is not available, and there are no safety valves available nearby like we have in the UK. But of course you would ignore the reality of what happens when there are no safe and legal services to turn to.. And legal abortion is safe by the way, 14 times safer than childbirth..

Pregnancy is more than just “9 months discomfort” it’s nice to see how much respect you have for the massive undertaking your wife is going through. You know that pregnancy and childbirth can kill don’t you? That’s a pretty hefty risk to impose on people you don’t even know. As is expecting them to avoid sex for their entire lives simply to avoid the risk of pregnancy for the sake of their health (and FYI, the oestrogen released in pregnancy is known to worsen myriad health conditions and takes a tremendous toll on the woman’s body, please do not be so flippant about what you seem to be demanding women are subjected to against their will to satisfy your desire for control).

When a woman doesn’t want to become pregnant she does take precautions. If those precautions fail then she should be able to put an end to the pregnancy at a point where there is absolutely no guarantee the pregnancy would continue naturally anyway. Especially not for the sake of someone else’s morals that she doesn’t agree with.

The only way abortion will ever stop happening is when they discover a way to transplant pregnancy. That day the pro life movement will suddenly evaporate as the pro choice side ask them to put their money where their mouths are and carry the pregnancies themselves.
It’s not about not wishing to parent, if that was all it was they would simply put the child up for adoption, it’s about not wanting to continue a PREGNANCY. If you can’t get that through your head there’s no sense trying to reason. With you.

I wish your wife the very best of luck, I hope that she receives the very best of care and that she and your newborn are safe and healthy. Because as someone who is pro choice, I fully support her choice to give birth. Because it’s HER choice.

We can have differing views in this debate…
concerning domestic terrorism ?
Hmmm Elvis Pepper pray for the dead…
Three dead after gunman storms Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado

Two civilians and police officer killed after hours-long standoff
The office of Colorado attorney general Cynthia Coffman said: “My thoughts & prayers are with the families of victims on today’s standoff in Colorado Springs. Tragic loss of life.”

Pepper, where am I adding legs to anything ? You said that without abortion that there would be an extra 50 million Americans.I call bullshit and now your trying to wriggle out of it. Then you go off on one against Shanti claiming that people taking responsibility for their sex lives is the answer to abortion? Are we to take from that that you’re in favor of abortion in cases where a woman has no choice as to whether she has sex or not?? Or maybe victims of rape or incest should be responsible huh?? Oh and if you think I’m buying that story about your “wife” having a kid tomorrow… Of course “she” is…. With you spending so much time on the Journal the day before she gives birth I wish her the best of luck there….

Hmm guys .. this news item is not about the merits or evil of abortion …
it is about a terrorist who killed 3 people …

Fair point Dingle.
I was drawn in by the off topic!
At present there is however a reasonable assumption that the shooter, or terrorist as he should be called, after all, shooting people in public spaces usually has the implicit intent of causing terror, may have been operating from a political ideological stance. But this has yet to be confirmed.

if he was ‘Pro Life’ – he would not have killed people ..
Colorado Springs is an overwhelmingly white,conservative Republican stronghold. There’s also a widespread anti-government attitude and an obsession with guns.

You’d think that wouldn’t you. But there have been abortion providers shot and clinics bombed by particularly zealous ideologues, so it’s not beyond the realms of possibility.

Otherwise, why target a planned parenthood? Maybe he was anti STI screening?

??
This happened at the same time when Trump and Doc Carson are making vile / extreme comments on all issues … Again if the killer was a real Christian he would not have killed people …

Dingle, you’re damn right this is about a terrorist.A nut job who gunned down innocent people going about their lawful business purely because he disagreed with the way they chose to live their lives.He is no better than the skum that attacked Paris. The reason for my anger is that he attacked people who hold the same views as me and a lot of my friends.It could quite easily have been one of my loved ones involved. The only way to defeat nut jobs like this is to live our lives as normal and to counter the blatant lies and emotional manipulation that fuel them. My thoughts are of course with those killed and injured tonight but the best way to honor them is to continue to stand up for what they did. My thoughts are also with the families of the police officers killed and injured who, whatever their views on abortion, were willing to put their lives on the line to uphold the law.

The organ donation argument is another logical fallacy as pregnancy is unique (and we don’t have forced organ donation either). Nor do you have a moral obligation to donate your body parts to a stranger. You do have a moral obligation to your own off-spring though. That’s why we frown on pregnant, hard-drinking, chain-smoking mothers. I also have a moral responsibility and obligation to raise that child as best I can as a father. Again, do you think I should be able to surrender my parental rights too or is that privilege only reserved for mothers? Would a father surrendering his parental rights as a mother can through abortion in the UK, and adoption here be somehow unjust? Do you agree or disagree with that?

“t’s nice to see how much respect you have for the massive undertaking your wife is going through” cheap shot Shanti, I noticed you skipped over the moral questions I raised in my points. Believe it or not childbirth os not new, and is safe, and costs a lot less lives that abortion does.

Dingle, where did the assumption he was Christian come from?
Mind you, it’s as fair an assumption as the assumption he is pro life..

Rasputin. my sister in law, a well known pro-choice advocate on here and elsewhere, and currently kindly babysitting my daughter for the weekend would differ as to whether my wife and I are heading to the CUH tomorrow. Of course, it matters not one whit that you disbelieve it. You wouldn’t know the truth if it smacked you over the back of the head.

Goodnight.

does it matter he is a terrorist no more no less ….
Hmm Elvis Pepper is more concerned about organ donations.. adoptions etc than the killing of 3 people .. a nutty Troll I guess
Hope he calms down later when he gets to the hospital …

“my sister in law, a well known pro-choice advocate on here and elsewhere, and currently kindly babysitting my daughter for the weekend would differ as to whether my wife ”
you already said that …

Dingle, tbh I’d take everything he says with a pinch of salt. Not too many men I know who’d be on a news websites comments section at 4 in the morning the night before the wife is supposed to give birth…Either way he’ll have to stay pretty quite for the next few months/years to keep up the charade.As he’s said… he’ll be a stay at home dad with a newborn and a toddler.Not much time to be online.

and he has a thing for his sister in law ….
Trolls are always sleazy

Pepper-you’ve come on here before on stats regarding ‘domestic violence’ in the USA -and they were proven to be a load of maketty uppity crap from your good self ..Please educate yourself better on what would happen to certain people in America if PP was defunded or worse still closed ..As Bevin is residing in America ,maybe,you should listen to what she says on the ‘vital’ services that PP provide..

Pepper, are you Niall O Sullivan? And if so, what’s with the numerous identities, do you keep getting banned or something?

Like Dingle has pointed out, it’s not that kind of discussion.. Here we have a white man walking into a Planned Parenthood and engaging in Domestic Terrorism.
The media are selling his actions short by failing to describe the incident as it truly is – terrorism, which indicates that the media may be displaying a little racism. You can bet had this man’s skin been a bit darker, the word terrorist would have been on all of the headlines.

So you won’t answer the question, Shanti? I can take it by your point blank refusal yo answer that you don’t believe a father should be able to also surrender his parental responsibilities then.

Rosie, I’ve never quoted US research on domestic violence in my life. I have debunked it when other quoted it and quoted ONLY research Irish research carried out in Ireland. That’s the polar opposite of of what you just said. Quoting debunked US DV research as fact is directly applicable and only applicable to womens aid themselves. Their website is littered in it and it goes unchallenged. They are the ones that quote US research.

I fail to see the comparison.
Adoption is the alternative to parenting, abortion is ending the pregnancy, something there is no male equivalent to.

It’s a false comparison. Both genders can and do abdicate their parental responsibility, every single day. When exactly is a man required to allow his body to undergo such a massive undertaking as pregnancy against his will?

Once the child is born the situation changes dramatically, there’s an actual living human being who requires care, and as a born human being, they have the same rights as anyone else.

And also, what does it have to do with a crazy white due De going and shooting up people in a planned parenthood outlet?

Shanti, the last person on here that should be using the term ‘straw man’ and logical fallacy is you. Each of your posts in response to me are wordy, weightless nonsense and obfuscation.

You have also chosen to dig below the belt on 4 or 5 occasions on this thread.

You can’t answer a straight question – a meost pertinent one, and despite the fact I have already on occasion pointed out to you respectfully that your organ donation argument is nonsense you persist with it. You seem to be playing for ‘likes’ rather than actually debating the points at hand.

Ah, ad hominem to quoque…
You wish to pretend that the bodily autonomy argument has no merit, simply because it’s inconvenient for you, and as for hitting below the belt, you’re the one who reckons that they should be more in control of my uterus than I am, I think we can dispense with the faux outrage..

Fine, change the organ donation to being forced to act as dialysis for another person, you still can’t force someone to act as life support for another without their consent. And that’s what the woman is during pregnancy, life SUPPORT, because just like a person on life support in a hospital, up until the third trimester that foetus cannot exist unless the life support is maintained.

But yes, you still reckon a pregnant woman deserves less rights over her own body than a corpse. I’m not surprised you want to pretend that the argument has no merit. Because it shows how utterly disrespectful you are of women having their own minds and self determination.

Oh, and nearly forgot..
Your whole argument about the abdication of parental responsibility is an argument against ADOPTION.
Abortion is what a woman does when she can’t face the PREGNANCY. And until you get a womb fitted, there is no comparison to that (funny how it’s fine for you to claim that pregnancy is a unique case in order to denounce a pregnant woman’s right to bodily autonomy, but when it suits you, it is fine to ignore that fact).

Adoption is an alternative to parenting, if the woman doesn’t mind the pregnancy and childbirth she will surrender for adoption if she just doesn’t want to parent.
If she doesn’t want to go through the process of pregnancy and childbirth, then she has an abortion.

Men don’t have to carry babies or birth them, so you are using a false comparison.. I have addressed your point, you just don’t want to accept that fact.

You’ve addressed no such thing; Abortion is an abdication of parental responsibility no matter what way you want to dress it up.

“Abortion is what a woman does when she can’t face the PREGNANCY.”

Really?

That’s called a logical fallacy. You are claiming to speak for all women that choose abortion by making that statement. That’s the ultimate logical fallacy. You jus6 can’t help making them can you. Cherry picking fallacy too I see. You have no moral argument and so have opted for ad-homs, logical fallacy, print shouting, total obfuscation tactics, and autonomy (sociopathic argument without morals).

Your entire argument is based on logical fallacy. So I can;t respond to it as is has no foundation.

Hint – abortion s what most women do when they can’t face being a parent. Big difference. So, if I don;t want to face being a father why shouldn’t I be able to walk away too? As a father I gave legal responsibility to be pay for that child until they are 23 years old. 23 years. That’s a lot longer than 9 months of physiological function.

I know of cases where child maintenance is deducted from wages from fathers one night stands from people in the UK and Australia. I also remember you saying “they should have used protection” as an answer. You’re a hypocrite.

And Shanti, biology is not the problem on that front. Only the law is and social and moral responsibility.

Is it? Which one?
Because you have been arguing a major red herring given that this article wasn’t about abortion, it was about domestic terrorism in the US.
And like I said, the parenting vs pregnancy is a false equivalence. Which IS a logical fallacy. You cannot ignore the fact that there’s 9 months there where it all falls on the woman, every single bit of it, and there’s absolutely nothing a man can do besides provide external support.
Pregnancy itself is a massive undertaking, and you seek to dismiss that in order to make your false comparison to child rearing. Tell me, can child rearing kill you? Can it have an a direct effect upon your health and even a permanent one at that?

Like I said, if the notion of actually being pregnant is what has the woman bothered then she will choose abortion. If she doesn’t mind the pregnancy or believes that it’s morally wrong to end it then she will continue the pregnancy and then surrender it. But there’s a whole 9 months, labour and childbirth to contend with first. Which you are conveniently ignoring to make your argument seem stronger.

Personally I feel that if we are a pro life state we should entirely support the woman regardless of the males input so that financial reasons never enter into a woman’s decision of whether to parent so if the man does decide to leave she is ok.
But please, continue with that straw man..