Where are Pussy Riot when you need them…there shite music could unite all sides…

@ James. This took place in the Crimea which is a highly disputed region – originally neither Ukrainian nor Russian but has been ruled by everyone from the Venetians to Turks to Mongols, Tartars Greeks … . It was in Russian control from 18th century until WW11 when it became an autonomous region of Ukraine. Many Crimeans do not feel Ukrainian, but Russian, Tartar or simply Crimean. However most are native speakers of Russian. The anti-Russian language law brought in by the new government as soon as they took office has worried and disenfranchised Russian speakers many of whom are Ukrainian and pro-European. Academics from Lviv University – the most nationalist part of the country – wrote an open letter to the government asking them to restore equal language rights to Russian speakers. However, this doesn’t seem to have been picked up by the western press

@ James O Donoghue – Having zero knowledge about Russian and Ukrainian history giving u only rights for your Mickey Mouse comments. If u think that Russians will not intervene into political and humanitarian crisis in Crimea is very shortsighted. 58% percent of Crimea population are ethic Russians, please think again what is Ukrainian and what is Russian. Crimea has great autonomy already from Kiev the next logical step is referendum for independence. Well, Scotland will be holding one too, whats the problem there? Separatism does exist.

Who are you Pavel?

Why do you only hang around these stories?

Did comrade Vladimir send you?

Nope it falls within a border then it’s theirs as in Ukraines. Gpod enough when the minority had pro Russian running place. Dont like tables turned.

Besides pro West protests started peaceful becoming armed to match the police. This other shower start armed.

If talking sh!te was music you would be an orchestra

@ Jeremy Usbourne – Yeah, Vova chatted with me sometime ago. Why I hang out around this stories? Cuz I want to. Any other questions?

If Pavel is sent by Vladimir the rest of you must be in receipt of EU propaganda grants.

What’s your take on the situation Ancient?

I believe this has been stirred up to weaken Russia. As I said before it is a way for NATO to surround Russia and cut off their most vital warm water ports and naval bases. Coincidence that tartus naval base in Syria and Sevastopol in Ukraine. I agree that some people disliked the government but is that not the case in every country. Obama is hardly popular in the US. In that case wait for election and vote them out. Or is western idea of democracy the farce that we all really know it to be.

I imagine the men who took over these buildings will be labeled as criminals and terrorists in the western media. But the pro EU mob were patriots and heroes.

You may well be right that this situation was deliberately brought to a head – I don’t know any more than you and we can only speculate – however its hard to deny that the majority of Ukrainians favour closer ties to Europe than to Russia, numerous independent opinion polls have confirmed this.

As I point out below, Yanukovych was preparing to sign a major deal with Russia against the will of the majority of Ukrainians and contrary to his own election platform, This deal would have charted the medium/long term future of Ukraine, so its not really as simple as saying that he should have been voted out at the next election.

Also Yanukovych was not deposed by either the US or the EU, but was voted out by Ukraine’s own parliament (who incidentally also reversed the changes that Yanukovych had unilaterally made to Ukraine’s constitution). Ukraine’s ambassador to the UK – who certainly cannot be accused of being a western stooge – said that recent events were entirely the will of the Ukrainian people, as reflected by their elected representatives, and the removal of Yanukovych from power by parliamentary vote was entirely lawful.

BTW,
“I imagine the men who took over these buildings will be labeled as criminals and terrorists in the western media. But the pro EU mob were patriots and heroes”
Again you may well be right, but I’m sure the Kremlin will also describe the Crimea protesters as ‘patriots and heroes’ whereas the Kiev protesters were described as ‘armed terrorists’.
This is the way propaganda works on both sides and the truth usually lies somewhere in between.

@ James

Don’t pay attention to pavel he is a troll

Perhaps Pavel is genuinely concerned about this particular crisis Jeremy .Unlike like your good self Jeremy ,whom it would appear would comment on anything ,just to listen to the sound of their own voice. You criticise Putin ,yet ironically dislike free debate and opinion .

Good points avina but remember that the EU also signs up whole populations into its control without the population giving is consent. Think of people like the British and others who have always had a majority opposed to the EU but have never been allowed a referendum. That’s why they supported our no to Lisbon campaign because they had no say themselves.

There was also a big deal made of the presidential palace but compared to some of the rulers and royals of countries in the EU he looks quite frugal.

Well I’m certainly no great fan of the EU, but unfortunately we have given our consent to be a part of it through our elected representatives.

Either way, this is not about admitting Ukraine into the EU (at least not yet) but is about closer trade ties to Europe.

Re. palaces, you have a point to a point, but you have overlooked the fact that this was Yanukovych’s personal residence, not a state residence, and was also built at a time when many Ukrainians were facing food shortages.

Do you really think it would be better to ruled by Putin or would the safeguards the EU (like the EU or not this part of what it does) provides not be just a little more pleasant?

I have yet to discover what all the anti Putin hysteria is all about. As far as I have seen he as done nothing but improve the country since coming to power. Look at how it was before him. He really couldn’t be much more popular among the Russian people. The western powers mainly hate him because he prevents them stomping around the world doing whatever they want. It seems that any leader that isn’t a yes man for the west must be toppled.

I am not suggesting Ukraine should be ruled by Putin either if thats the impression I gave in my comments.

Wow you are so insular and narrow minded that you don’t even realize that you are the epitome of a troll. Or perhaps you simply just don’t know the definition of one.

Didn’t realize I was trolling but you are entitled to your opinion.

that’s the best comment on this @Avina.

cant for the life of me see what is the problem with pavel commenting on this issue regularly

“He really couldn’t be much more popular among the Russian people”? I hardly think that is true but then Saddam Hussein used to win 99.9% of the vote in general elections. There are numerous cases of dissidents been disposed of or jailed for spurious reasons. As for preventing the West from doing what it wants -does propping up Assad count as a good thing with 130,000 people dead…He is despicable, homophobic, ex-KGB despot that has bullied Ukraine through the restriction of energy supplies and coercion. two-thirds of Ukraine want closer ties to Europe – and Putin is afraid of having a fully functioning democracy on his doorstep that is bound to European norms in terms of human rights

Especially if Pavel is Russian. He would tend to know a bit more about it than the rest of us.

I don’t think that Russia and Iraq under Saddam can be compared. I feel there is genuine support for Putin among the majority of Russians.

Remember we were led to believe that no one supported president Assad either that turned out badly for them.

As a person, whos knowdlge of languages allows to watch Western, Russian and Ukranian media; who has relatives in Ukraine; who spent several years of his life in Ukraine (Odessa), who perfectly knows the history of the country and all cultural aspects..and who is perfectly aware of everything that happens there right now, i can safely say that you have no idea what you are talking about (especially people like Avina, James and rusofobic Mick Jordan). Your comments are pure bullsh@t.. Though, if it makes you feel better, think that you are right..;)
Павел, не трать ты на них свое время..:))

knowledge* :)

The facts in the matter though is that Crimea is part of Ukraine. This is not disputed by anyone involved including Russia. If Ukrainians do not want to allow their territory to be split then that is up to them.

The Tatar population (previously forced to flee Crimea under Stalin) view themselves a Ukrainian rather than Russia and they make up a sizeable (about a quarter) of the population. Non-ethnic Russians who are not Tatar make up just under a quarter with ethnic Russian (who populated the lands of the displaced Tatars) being just over half the population (56% or so?).

Personally I see no strong argument in that for the Ukraine to allow Crimea to secede.

so enlighten us Vladimir…We don’t get Pravda over here…

Good man vlad :) off to kiev stans up and give out at the naughty people.

To be fair having dated a Ukrainian and spending many times there over the last ten year’s with her family and having visited many parts of Ukraine. I’ll say I’ve a understanding of how many in kiev and western ukraine feel.

As with an country national borders ate state sovereignty. Perhaps vlad you might want to make yoirself aware of that. Gifted or not its Ukraine. Sure if Russians are sore let them take back alaska :)

Borders are borders are borders

There is no “humanitarian crisis” in Crimea. The Russian language has not been banned it has been downgraded. You need to let your colonies go Pavel like Britain, France, Spain and Portugal did. Seeking Anschluss with the Russian garrison remnant in former colonies will only lead to endless war. Of course I know your crazy president Putin would like that to get support from nationalists at home.

Russia is bound by the 1994 Budapest Memorandum to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity.

And Pavel, most of the population of Chechnya are ethnic Chechens but you refused to let them have independence. You condemn separatism in Russia but support it abroad when its by Russians. Gross hypocrisy.

Add to thst vlad we in this part of the work demand accountability. Ukraine had corrupt leaders living in opulence I cant understand how anyone can justify supporting a leader like that unless brainwashed.

Do keep in mind that richest man in this part of the work is your namesake. You can be sure as a dictator he pulls the strings. One would hope ome day Russians see that and overthrow him

Oh look 70 billion dollars stolen from Ukraine.

Amazing some back him.

And to be fair it is our business if we are going to be part of an EU/USA IMF bailout.

Only thing ill say for Victor is there are tens of millions of Ukrainians. Id be watching over my shoulder forever more as one day someone will catch up with him and…….

You can guess.

Ancient history its because he is a brutal dictator,

I was referring to Jeremy .

Sorry Dennis. My mistake :)

I disagree Barlow
Irish people are known for their bravery the world over leaving your rural village on the internet is not the same as seeing the world and the respect it has for the Irish people

Samson v Goliath. Waste of time.

I know glen. We have a great track record of defeating our country. Thats why we are ginger and speak english.

*defending that is

I’m not ginger.

I’m not ginger and I speak English when I have too

Not the bravest but the dumbest and most compliant, remember the euro crisis was all our fault, that’s why the crisis to date cost the people in Germany €142 and cost the Irish €8719

That makes no sense at all LM. The eu doesn’t have an army

The EU is like many failing empires from the past. Once it stops growing it will implode. That’s why they are constantly trying to expand.

Ancient. That what happened the Soviet Union then? And Why Russia is doing it right now?

Instead of slagging it why not just point out where you think its incorrect Golden?

That would be far more constructive.

No let’s just agree that Wikipedia is not a reliable source for information,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avina_Laaf

Nice try Golden, but already deleted by a wiki Admin as an “attack page” – pity you can’t do anything a little less childish.

Still waiting to hear where you think the wikipedia page on Cossacks (and all the sources it links to) has got it all wrong, but I guess I’ll be kept waiting…

Point is anyone can contribute to Wikipedia and in today’s world of spin, propaganda and think tanks anyone can paint a picture in good light or bad, and nah wasn’t really trying took me a minute to do.

Well you’ve just disproved your own point – it was taken down in under 10 minutes by an admin.

Wiki is not perfect but the point is that contributers can highlight an error and come up with an alternative (as long as they can back it up with references which check out) and a team of moderators act as ‘referee’. Hell, you could even tell them where you think the Cossack article is wrong!

The insistence on references is what makes it far more transparent than most other sources of information.

Not really I mean carefully chosen words/phrases can easily get in there to change peoples opinions, its all very subtly done and we can go on and on about this but the bottom line is, at least in my opinion (and many others), that Wikipedia is not really a reliable go to source, especially when it comes to politics and the like.

@ Avina : Two links that show Russia was supportive of a trilateral agreement.
http://rt.com/news/lavrov-interview-eu-ukraine-610/
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2013_12_16/Many-in-EU-support-trilateral-discussion-regarding-Ukraine-Lavrov-0425/

Here is the leaked phone call between Victoria Nuland (ass sec of state) and Pryatt (Ukraine ambassador) discussing what strings to pull in case you haven’t heard it..
http://youtu.be/2QxZ8t3V_bk

“What happend to the 5 Billion Dollars?” Wasn’t that what you kept talking about Golden when you were refering to the Kiev protests. And then you gave the link to Nuland’s speech and it backfired on you. You tried to infer the US had given 5 Billion to the pro Western activists but in Your video it showed that your 5 Billion Dollars had been given to successive Ukrainian Governments over a period of 23 years. Stoped asking about 5 Billion after that.

If you read back on these threads Mick, you’ll find that I never questioned it, I just stated that according to Nuland “Washington has spent $5 Billion promoting Democracy in the Ukraine”, and that my friend remains the fact, regardless of the timeline, what fuhkin business does Washington have spending taxpayers money on a push to get Ukraine to join the EU when it’s own cities are dying? Can you see my point Mick, can you think clearly enough for five minutes to recognize it?

Anyway you have chosen to ignore the leaked phone call which shows it plain as day that the US have been interfering in would you care to respond to that and my questions above? Don’t try and lead me down the garden path again Mick with more silly questions. ok?

I didn’t say you questioned it. I said you tried to imply it was given recently to fund pro western groups to over throw the pro Russian government.

The phone call that she thought that the EU weren’t doing enough to help the anti Yanokovich/Putin side. And that America should step in and assist them? In that case why didn’t say you praise the EU for being so restrained but you were staunchly anti EU if my memory serves me correctly.

And while your there Golden what do you think of Yanokovich’s thieving? 35 Billion they reckon so far and thats without a full audit of his time in office.

Again, no, I did say in the same comments that truckloads of cash were caught on camera with an American diplomatic core vehicle at the airport unloaded from a cargo plane, and questioned where the protesters and militant fascists got the all the gear (Petrol, combat clothing, food, tyres) to sustain an riot like situation for around 3 months. Are you done now Mick? or can you answer the questions?

No Golden you didn’t. All you kept saying is “what did they do with the 5 Billion”.

And you haven’t asked me any questions here. But I have asked you one about Yanokovich’s thieving.

Yanukovichs thieving is disgusting, goes without saying obviously, now what fuhkin business does Washington have spending taxpayers money on a push to get Ukraine to join the EU when it’s own cities are dying? And you obviously haven’t even listened to the phone call if that’s all you come up with.

Spending it over a period of 23 years. We gave as much away to countries in Africa over the same period. You could say the same about us. What business was it of our governments giving away our money to Africa nations.

Ok Alvina, but Russia put forward the suggestion of a trilateral agreement at the beginning of the crises. This would have been the best of both worlds for Ukraine but Mr. Barossa flatly refused.

Do you have a link for that Padraic?

Yanukovych himself favoured the ‘foot in both camps’ approach and was voted in on that platform, but this was reportedly rejected by Putin during talks with Yanukovych.

This was what Yanukovych said to his party back in September: “He told us Russia was not fit for talks, Russia did not consider Ukraine to be an equal partner, that it tried to force us to act by its own rules, that Russia does not act in Ukraine’s best interests in any negotiations, and therefore there can be no talk of having negotiations with Russia”.

Between then and November he performed a complete U-turn after the Kremlin threatened Ukraine with trade embargoes and no hard offer was forthcoming from EU.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/19/us-ukraine-russia-deal-special-report-idUSBRE9BI0DZ20131219

Where do you work Padraig?

Vested interest much?

@ Avina : The offer was actually made by Ukraine. It was not turned down by Russia, but by Barroso, but it would have been a good starting point for negotiations between Russia and the EU in the interests of Ukraine . Quote : Yanukovych is now seeking a trilateral deal which would also include Russia, a notion the EU immediately dismissed. “When we make a bilateral deal, we don’t need a trilateral agreement,” said Barroso.

I have seen that quote from Barroso too Padraic, but my interpretation of it is “we’ll deal with Ukraine directly and you do the same”, ie. allow the Ukrainians themselves to decide who they want to deal with and how. Not really the same thing as insisting on an all or nothing ‘either us or the Russians’ approach as you seem to be suggesting.

Ok, but I remember that back in Nov. Dec on Russian TV they were regarding this suggestion positively .
I suggest , a missed chance.

Jeremy usbourne ,do you have anything constructive to say , any real opinion to express or do you just pop up here to provoke people ? TUT TUT TUT ;-(

Even Chuck Norris is terrified of the Spetsnaz

Or the back flip axe throw. What do they be feeding them lads when they’re going up?!

Vodka.

The Russian’s are the only people that can draw super human strength from it.

Much as we in Ireland have a lot to justifiably complain about with Barroso, comparing him to Stalin is inane.

:) was just kidding. An exaggeration I agree.

It seems Yanokovich was an even bigger thief than first thought. Over the past 3 years 35 Billion has gone missing from public monies in Ukraine and from the paper trail left behind by Yanokovich it has all been sent abroad to foreign bank acounts. Yet people on here are still defending him.

Mick even tyrants have supporters.

But hopefully karma will get him before the Ukrainians do.

As fpr redrawing the border lines. Its Ukraine. If they want to give it to Russia grand but why should they

I agree. But Ukraine needs to play it cool. What those occupying the buildings want the Government to do is take action so they can cry “Mother Russia defend us. They are trying to kill us”.

I wonder how many “Right wing Fascist Groups” are in the crowd occupying the buildings? But the Lefties will tell you there are no Neo Nazi Groups in Russia.

So now those police are the good guys. A few days ago they were referred to as mass murdering thugs. How things change.

Ancient that was the very mistake Yanokovich made. Trying to forcibly remove the protesters from Maidan Square.