That’s an utterly unfounded sixteenth-century type of statement to make, with all its talk of traitors and death penalties. There are many other issues which supersede blind loyalty to one’s country .

Manning had options. I too am glad he released the info, but he could have done it in other ways. Had he done so, it may have helped his credibility.

Loyalty has been on a downturn since the sixteenth century? That is news to me. The simple facts of the matter are that he broke his oath of allegiance and like all soldiers, will be punished in kind. In particular for his case, his actions have almost certainly caused people their lives, not that we will ever find out because of the nature of their work.

King Olaf, what lives have been lost that can be exclusively put down to Chelsea manning? 15 innocent people were illegally killed in Yemen 2 days ago, by a drone strike shall we put them down to Chelsea manning too?

That type of oath is worth the breaking if keeping it means important information being kept from everyone apart from a narrow cohort of people. And you’re just assuming that lives have been lost for the purpose of your argument. Two can play that game, and I assume that none have.

As I said by the very nature of their work, off the radar operatives will never be acknowledged when they die in the field. Also any counter terrorism operations that may have been underway would have been compromised and aborted. Had they have been a success it may have killed people who could possibly go on to kill more innocent people.

Are you referring to this http://rt.com/usa/drone-yemen-dozens-dead-880/ ?? Because that article states that 55 AQ militants were killed and 3 civilians. How they can differentiate between civilians and un-uniformed militants, I will never know. It also doesn’t help that the vast majority of these organisations base themselves around civilians to use them as a shield. At the end of the day, mistakes are made or it is acceptable collateral damage.

Manning in my eyes and his governments rightly view him as a traitor. He deserves everything he gets and worse.

What utter bullsh1t. During the trial, the prosecution didn’t even try to argue that Manning’s actions cost lives, as there isn’t a shred of evidence to suggest so.

Just making stuff up, Olaf, is that it?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/bradley-manning-sentencing-hearing-pentagon

One of the files Manning downloaded was a video of the crew of an Apache helicopter laughing and joking as they gun down civilians on the street in Iraq. None of the crew have been charged with anything, all those killed being classed as insurgents. The world should know about the war crimes being committed by America as they go around liberating countries. They wanted to keep this info secret, trying to protect a reputation. Olaf thinks whistle blowers should be executed. He’d rather protect the war criminals.

No matter what you think of what Manning did in an ethical perspective, in a legal perspective he breached his contract of employment and breached his oath. Therefore in a strictly legal sense he should be punished.

Well then the law is an ass, Jason!

Stephen, try googling “Khalifa Abdullah”. That is just one documented murder resulting directly from Mannings’ actions.

In general I support the concept of whistleblowing, and if Mannings had selectively leaked certain key documents I would have a lot of sympathy for her, but the fact is she leaked tens of thousands of sensitive classified documents and admitted that she didn’t even know what was in the vast majority of them.

This was irresponsible in the extreme and endangered the lives of countless people. We may never know the full extent of the damage done or the lives lost as a direct result of her actions.

For the record I still think the sentence was excessive.

Fair enough Jason, fire him from his employment. 35 years in prison, being treated cruelly and inhumanely? Too much.

I thought you were smarter than that White Fang. Do you really think the military prosecution would further worsen the leak by officially confirming specific details of what Manning leaked? There won’t be a shred of evidence because it will never exist officially.

So yes, I am speculating but you are the one believing bullsh1t if you think what Manning leaked doesn’t do damage somewhere along the line.

So I stand by what I said, Manning is a traitor and deserves everything he gets. You can be sure he won’t have an easy time in military prison.

Fair enough Avina Laaf, if there is evidence of one death being caused indirectly as a result of the leaks that is unfortunate. But just think of the much greater damage that can hopefully be averted in the future as a result of us knowing more about American ‘liberation’ tactics in all their terrible glory. I think we win because of her actions, ultimately.

Jamie. In Regards to the Helicopter Video. They were not civilians but heavily armed insurgents that had attacked a US patrol 20 mins prior to being intercepted by the Helicopter crews. Who btw described what they were seeing and asked permission to open fire under the rules of engagement. As for the Journalists being killed that was unfortunate but they had chosen to embed themselves with the insurgents to get the story from their side and therefore knew the risk that was involved. And even Julian Assange had to admit that those men were armed with AK 47′s and an RPG 7. So there is no doubt as to what they were about.

35 years for reporting war crimes strange world

How blithely you write off the deaths of human beings, Mick! Journalists or otherwise, their deaths were something more than ‘unfortunate’.

Jamie. If A Dishonourable Discharge was all he was to face what sort of example would that send to the next person that released sensitive info to a serious enemy. He got the same sentence others have gotten during the Cold War when selling/giving info to the Soviets. The Judges didn’t pick a number out of the air but used sentences handed down in previous trials.

Jason evil triumphs when good men do nothing Chelsea stood up and exposed war criminals a hero by any standard

Stephen in armed conflict people get killed. If you place yourself on the front line you do so in the full knowledge that you could be the next casualty.

You’re right Stephen, the deaths of those journalists were more than just unfortunate. That being said they were in a warzone and embedded with insurgents. The likelihood of a journalist being killed on the front lines of a battle is quite high as you can imagine.

Like I said Stephen, if she had selectively leaked key documents I would have more sympathy for her.

She may also have indirectly caused many more deaths – the Taliban were undoubtedly strengthened as a result of her actions as tribal leaders were subsequently afraid to co-operate with the US in case there were further leaks.

Mick Jordan your comment is complete rubbish pathetic even by your standards

Bill its simple fact. Like it or not.

Jason I agree, I guess it was a calculated risk for the journalists, But I just don’t think the people in the helicopters made any kind of distinction regarding who they were shooting, civilians or insurgents or whoever, I think it was just like a computer game to them. Civilians were simply cannon fodder during that monstrous war and the helicopter incident was just another example of that in my opinion.

Good man Bill, just criticise and neglect to contribute anything to debate. Your intellectual capacity must be about a sharp as your insults.

Also Stephen, whilst Mick’s choice of words could have been better he is right in that that is the horrific brutality of war. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either naive or has been watching too many hollywood movies.

War photographers and correspondents are incredible brave and selfless people who deserve our utmost respect for taking huge personal risks to get the story to us from the frontline.

The photographer killed in the wikeaks tape must have been well aware of the massive personal risk he was placing himself under by embedding himself in an active combat unit in a warzone, yet he was prepared to accept that in order to portray all aspects of the war to the outside world. RIP.

Yes Avina Laaf, I do agree about the bravery of journalists and that it was a calculated risk. And yes, war is horrible; an unjust war, as in the case of Iraq, even more so! The more we learn – as a result of contributions like Chelsea Manning’s – of the sheer illegitimacy and indiscriminate shooting and bombing of civilians that defined that war, the more it should make our blood boil.

King Olaf, AQ use civilians as a shield ok I accept that. The US on the other hand made up lies to invade Iraq searching for WMD’s that never existed and killed how many thousand innocents? Also collateral damage only seems to apply when it’s not the lives of Americans.

Mick, I know you have to have a deterrent to leaking information, but 35 years under harsh conditions? What is your loyalty to the American military, even when they commit war crimes. Why would you defend that?

Jamie as it has already been said he took an oath. He had every chance to bring his concerns to those above him up to and including members of Congress. He could have chosen an insanity defence due to the stresses of living a double life as a transgender and possibly received a much lower sentence in a Military Hospital. I do believe that he was used cynically by Assange who pretended to befriend him and after grooming him gave him a programme to install the programme that stole info en-mass.

Well I don’t know much about that Mick so I’ll take your word for it to a degree. Do you think the sentence was excessively harsh, given the circumstances you’ve described?

@Martin – I would have been an opponent of the Iraq war. Reasons for the invasion were both vague and in some respects exaggerated. I never saw the point in invading a weak but stable regional power. According to the WikiLeaks documents so many anti-Americans love to quote statistic from…..up to 6,000 civilians during the invasion and 30,000 to 45,000 Iraqi military deaths. Over all during the occupation the figures are 66,000 civilian dead as a result and overall 109,000 paramilitary and insurgents.

I am not here to hide the fact that the US government does some terrible things and makes mistakes. The fact a lot of people don’t want to face is that the US is over all a positive force in the world. I am glad they are the world superpower rather than China or Russia.

Iraq is one thing. Afghanistan seems to be a major problem for a lot of people with liberal leanings in Ireland. The entire campaign there was legitimised by UNSC Article 51 of the UN charter and Article 5 of the NATO charter and Article 5 of ANZUS. So contrary to what many say…it is definitely not an illegal war.

Jamie. The sentence itself is a message. As I said it was not plucked out of the air but taken from sentences handed down in previous espionage cases.

No matter what you think of what Manning did in an ethical perspective, in a legal perspective he breached his contract of employment and breached his oath”
Most politicians breach their contract of employment ie they are elected to serve the people – instead they in many cases – rob them – so should they be jailed – or shot ??

Jim. Any Politician that would break the Official Secrets act would face the same prosecution as you or I if we were to do the same.

So Mick you consider the sentence appropriate, it’s clear where your loyalties lie. I support the exposer of war crimes and condemn the oppressor of freedom.

You coward. Armchair general who has never lifted a rifle, or strapped on a parachute for your country, who thinks this means you are qualified to judge.

Do you know who was let down here? It was Chelsea Manning. And do you know who let him down? The American people, and everyone else who let her and her brothers go into harms way on falsehoods. Who did nothing to stop a needless war, from which 3k brave young people did not come home. Who will not hold a leader to responsibility for statements and actions, in the same way you ask Chelsea to accountable. Who were too busy. Too weak and too dependent. When she, and the rest of us were willing to fight and die to uphold orders, you did nothing to save us. You do nothing to make sure their sacrifice is worthy.

The army claims to have 7 values, 2 of which are duty and personal courage. Duty to do what is right and courage to risk everything to do. Whatever you might think of her, she gave up 35 years of her life to do the right thing.

Until you have paid the price she has, you are unqualified to judge.

And PS she was not able to bring the moral imperative part of her case to trial. She was doomed before the trial even started.

Her. Not him, her.

Autocorrect and pronouns don’t mix

This is laughable, an internet randomer slagging another internet randomer for being an armchair general. Get a grip. Put together a decent argument rather than a feeble attempt at character assassination of someone you don’t know. I presume your are either referring to myself or Mick.

Bradley Manning committed espionage, theft and fraud, also violating the uniform code of military justice. He was found guilt on most charges, escaped by the skin of his teeth missing out on the capital offense.

He is a traitor and he deserves everything he gets. I am glad and happy that justice has been served to fullest extent that the law would allow. Although in my opinion, I would like to have seen a death sentence for his actions.

For the record, I won’t ever pay the price “She” has because I would never be a traitor to my country. I will judge him and judge him harshly at that. I couldn’t really give a shite what you think about that.

Mean’t to say oppressor of truth, but it’s much the same thing essentially. The police state is taking over the world. America’s police state: bad. Russia’s police state: very bad. China’s police state: very very bad. Get the tinfoil hats out folks, because I believe we are being controlled and manipulated into believing a certain ideology and behaving in a way that suits the powers that be. Those who make money from misery. Capitalism, Communism.. it’s all the same really, it’s about control. Let the people of the world be free. What are they afraid of, or are they simply to greedy and power-hungry?

Whats this? More namby pamby liberal shite?

People make money from misery…that is completely down to perspective. Fatty foods, alcohol, video games, jewelry, you name it….any of these items can potentially cause misery to those that desire them in excess or can’t afford them. The people that produce them make money from the misery that they can cause. How do we prevent this? By controlling what people can consume, what they can do, what they can buy. Is that what you would like?

Humans will never achieve an fully equal society. Where we stand now is as good as it can get without a miracle because everything comes down to resources. My society needs them more than any other and I don’t care what we have to do to secure our future.

There will always be the few controlling the many. Do away with top dog syndrome and you do away with the motivation for ambition and advancement.

*too FML

Maybe I’m wrong and you were a soldier for somebody. But I don’t think so.

These days if your plumbing goes, call the plumber. If your electricity goes, call the electrician. If your freedom goes, or is threatened, call the soldier. There is always someone else whose job it is to fix things. And people let them.

And people who think it’s enough to vote once in a cycle. These things happen and there are real people on the end of war, death, and destruction. But that’s abstract, right? If Chelsea manning was deployed to theater to defend you and her job was intel, does it matter? When you hear the death tolls do you think of her maybe family? Or of the ones who didn’t make it? Were they your friends?

People are reliant on others for everything these days… Are you prepared to die for your beliefs? Are you prepared to take up arms and fight? Particularly against your own govt? What? There’s water taxes, and banking fraud… Are you willing to die to change Ireland, or are you waiting for someone else to do it for you?

You talk about Treason… But she told the truth, and she tried to raise the issue internally. She believed it would not be heard, just as it was not for Edward Snowden. And her chief argument was that her govt was doing wrong, except she couldn’t use that defense in her evaluation.

What kind of person are you? When tees things happen, they just don’t define you, the define us. We owe her. And you owe her. God forbid someone would do the right thing….

Rob had to read that a few times but yes, you are correct sir.

She’s a rat and it should be double, snowden should be prosecuted as well .. Not that I agree with the NSA or the CIA either but I strongly disagree with the way it came out!

Rob. “She tried to raise it internally” that’s the problem. He didn’t. He contacted wikileaks. He didn’t bring it to the attention of any member of congress which he would have had the legitimize right to do after exhausting all military channels. He stole info and gave it to a third party. His defence wanted to use the diminished responsibility route but he said no. He knew what he did was illegal and would have consequences. He had the availability to go through the Chain of Command but chose to ignore it.

Is that the best you have Paddy? Stay out of this and let the grown ups talk for a minute.

Rob, my experience has nothing to do with my opinion on this matter. Whether you are a soldier or a plumber. Every person is obliged to be loyal to their country.

Nobody joins the military while thinking they won’t be asked to do things that would be objectionable in civilian life. The Western world, particularly Europe, is on the path towards being an easy target. Dirty and morally wrong acts have to take place to keep our society going. If you think otherwise, you are mad.

I’ve said it before. Believe it or not, we live in the best society to have ever existed in human history. There are two types of people living here….those who will do anything to ensure survival and prosperity…and those who have strong moral and ethical beliefs to keep their counterpart in check.

The West, in particular Europe, is gradually going to become an easy target for anyone who wishes to take it. We are weakening because people are not willing to make the sacrifices that past generations made.

For example, if a conflict arose in Europe as a result of the Ukraine crisis. I genuinely would pack in my job and enlist in the British military, because Ireland would be faffing about with neutrality issues. I will die to protect my way of life and I would do anything for it. I don’t imagine there would be many others to do the same. People are too selfish nowadays.

Oh I dunno about that, Gizmo… :p

It’s not a matter of “wanting” to become a woman. I no more “want” to be a woman than I “want” blue eyes.

Gizmo, I’ll give you a little fact about the world that may scare the shit out of you. In the Western world when we think of gender, we think male and female. Yet, there are actually five different genders out there. In Western hospitals when a child is born, the doctor decides what gender that child will be and then carries out the medical procedures to make it so. So you could be a man who feels like a woman and visa versa. You may not like it but that’s life.

Anyway, how’s that leg of yours coming along, still sore?

Jesus you’re crazy cowen, 5 different genders? I only ever see two when I’m
filling out a form, I’m behind the time. It’s not cool anymore being a plain old male. My leg is fine, so plans on getting it removed anyway.

Yep, five different genders. Lives and learns, don’t we? I wouldn’t say you’re behind the times, just one dimensional. Reading non-fiction books can/may help with that – depending on what you read of course. Glad to hear the broken leg is no longer broken, but don’t you think it’s a bit drastic to get the leg removed when you say it’s now fine?

Anyway, fingers are crossed that goes well for you!

5? What’s this horse*hit?

It’s very simple. You are usually born with a sex. Rarely this does not align with your gender. So you can alter that. Like sexuality it’s not binary, trinary or anything. It’s an infinite spectrum.

Where’d 5 come from?

Hang on, you want mainstream media to form an opinion on what’s happening and then push it, rather than report the facts of the news?!

Anyway, not sure what you consider mainstream media but here’s an opinion piece from the New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/opinion/bradley-mannings-sentence-is-excessive.html?_r=0
and an article in the guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/21/bradley-manning-sentence-unjust

Yeah fine, if it makes her happy being called Chelsea that’s great. I’d be more concerned with being locked up for doing good for humanity, if not the US intelligence service, if I were her.

I’d say lying about who she truly feels she is would be even more mentally devastating.

Normally I would agree but in this case I am not so sure. Isolated, malnourished , sleep deprived and degraded for years. I would imagine that she is not mentally in the best condition to be making any decisions. Especially when these decisions are being leaked by her captors to the media to hold her up to even more derision.

Hmmm… Paddy, you actually make a very good point.

It’s been known to happen.

Jane Travers!

Yes, Trudy?

EiRed asked who was in the photo above, on my phone you made the post above his. I was trying to be funny, looks like I wasn’t!

Ha! Sorry Trudy, nice try :)