Looking at the numbers If FG had any sense they would go into a coalition with FF as the junior party, this would achieve two things, firtsly it would prevent SF from being in power during the centenary of the 1916 Rising which for them must be a massive objective, and secondly it would see FF suffer longterm, as its usually the junior partner in a coalition that is punished by the electorate, see the PD’s and the Green party for precedents.

I wouldn’t be concerned. The big spoof is about to be exposed. FG/Labour snook out a bulletin over the Christmas lull that they are no longer seeking bank recapitalisation from Europe i.e. the seismic shift/gamechanger was BS all along.

Hence the stories in the last couple of days about getting the money back directly from the banks/’done apologising’ etc.

Hopefully they’ll be puled over the hot coals in the Dail later. The government have betrayed us spectacularly.

Were Jammin – unlike the ethical and honest Sinn Fein I suppose. hahahah

So if we are hoping that Lucinda’s new party will fail, who are we hoping will win? The civil war parties? The terrorists? The left wing idiots who have a combined iq of a broken plate?

Yeah, Were Jammin, they’ve dropped seeking bank recapitalisation from Europe… even though this is the front page story on the Irish Times today: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/michael-noonan-indicates-support-for-eu-debt-conference-1.2064880

“Expressed broad support for the prospect of the conference”

I think we all know the MO of this shower by now. On the day that they’re about to be held to task for their utter failure and spoofing, there is an announcement that something might happen further down the road. Seismic shift 2.0 or some other crap.

Look at the wording ‘broad support for the prospect of ‘

Not worth the breath used to utter.

Good poll. Can only go up from here for fg. But they need to give little more back

I don’t believe a word about fianna gael . Pure spin.

Ye the fact that 32 % of people polled like this dictatorship austerity government who dont care about people is mind boggling and questions intelligence of the 32% and fianna fail support to I fear for the future of Ireland

Well, I always thought a conference or a united front should have been the way Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain, and Cyprus went about it the whole time, rather than being picked off one by one. Much better chance of getting a deal if they stuck together and had a united voice. When Merkel and Sarkozy were cuddling up together a few years ago, Ireland and the other member states with debt issues should have been banding together too.

Let’s not ignore that 64% don’t want them.

Goes to show you what you are dealing with in this country when it comes to the electorate, most are dumb as bricks. The same clowns keep voting for fg/lab or ff all the time. We are stuck with civil war parties for eternity because as a nation we just cannot move on. The only good thing is the improvement for independants of late. That is the only hope of a way forward seeing as so many wont vote sf. People need to wake up to the harm these self serving pr!cks are doing to the country and punish them for it by dumping them. Because of ff fg lab we are enslaved to the eu/imf/ecb for generations, we will be enslaved to IW for eternity if people dont wake up. If you add slavebridge and emigration numbers the unemployment figures and see the true performance of fg/lab it would paint the pretty picture edna and co are selling. People on here talk about leaving the country if sf get into govt. but how many will leave if we continue down the same road as before? Young people today have the option of leaving to a better future abroad or stay for the low pay and taxed to the boll!x future on offer in fg/lab self serving utopia

IMHO the poll is just reflecting the fact that for the best part of a month now its been very quiet on the political front. When things get back to normal the next poll will revert back to the pre Christmas numbers

*Wouldnt paint the pretty picture….

It will be interesting to see what the Fennelly Report will throw up!

“The left wing idiots” you mean the only section in the political sphere who saw the crisis coming and gave clear warning well in advance only to be told by the establishment that they should “commit suicide”. The idiots who are the only section in society who have a clear understanding of the real root causes of this crisis, and the only section that understand that if we are to overcome this crisis than we are going to need radical changes in how we run our society. Incidentally the only section politically who bare no responsibility for the extremely poor state of affairs of this state. The left are only described as “looney” by those who wish to maintain the status quo, so I ask who are the real lunatics?

Paul – You, as a FG Spokesperson , are clearly not taking the medication that the overcrowded A&E gave you , for your Gerryphobia Virus !!!

You have to deal with this problem – it’s consuming you a Cara !

Who do you want instead Mick? Be specific now with no waffle about independents.

Ciarraioch and were jammy, yer boys must be devastated eh?! Down 3 % while FG and Lab are on the rise?! At least electorate are starting to see through the spoofers in Sinn Fein.

Oh the lies!!!

Inda, Mehole and Iphone Moanie Joanie are all more popular than Gerry??!

The poll is clearly rigged by DOB or the British Government or Brussels or someone.

If you want a party to continue to lie, cover up and only give the public the information the party think they should know – then clearly there is only party vote for – but who is it?

Cheer up D H. Sing a song or something!

A chara not “a cara”

I wonder what the true support for gay ‘marriage’ is? People say yes because they feel pressured and don’t want to be labelled homophobic. The truth is that the numbers of hardcore supporters that will actually go and vote yes would be lucky to get 30% for gay ‘marriage’.

People are too afraid to answer on an anonymous pole? Really??? Praise, take your pills, it’s worse you’re getting

Pierre it’s usually the junior partner that gets pilloried because the junior partner usually has a different platform. FF and FG’s platforms are virtually indistinguishable.

Mike you’re not required to have founded a party yourself before you can comment on who you’d vote for.

Why do I get the feeling that Lucinda was put up to this to dilute the potential support among Independents and/or the electorate for Shane Ross’s initiative?

Or it’s alphabetical order . . . .

I suppose SF will say this poll is not reliable. Anti Sinn Fein bias blah, blah, blah.

More bias from RTÉ even though the poll was carried out for Paddy Power??

Sinister , they are listed in order of size based on the amount of seats won in the last election . Which seems very reasonable to me

2105? Jaysus that last century flew by

It is not a broken promise. They said they would try to get this and they have tried. They are still attempting to force the EU on this issue. Have you not read the papers todays?
I think you are spouting more lies Norman and as much as you try to deny your SF affiliations, we can all see through you.

“They said they would try to get this and they have tried”

Details please, or are we back in 3 spoofs peer day mode??

Maybe try reading the front pages of todays papers.

Paul I’m spouting lies?really you have proof.
As to my affiliations I couldn’t give a flying f**k what you think or don’t think.I’ve always voted Independent and always will.
Delighted Ming got Europe and M Fitzmaurice got into the Dail.

Where’s the ‘Seismic shift ,the game changer, special case ‘Paul? 2 years later the people of this country are still waiting.

So, you believe everything you read in the papers Paul?? Are you a fan of the indo as well??

Dear oh dear.

Is future recapitalisation not via the EFSM thingy?

(And that’s if recapitalisation is needed at all).

Business they claimed ie FG/Lab that they would seek retrospective recapitalisation but an announcement was made over the Christmas this was being dropped.

And you would believe Sinn Fein I suppose?? hahhaha

One look at Paul Carey’s avatar and I can’t resist a rave! Put on Darude-”Sandstorm” and watch those colours fly!!!!!

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colette-browne/coalitions-plan-to-recoup-64bn-bank-debt-is-a-failure-and-were-paying-for-it-30902479.html

Paul – SF are down 3% so they appear to have been hurt by something: the Cahill affair is as likely a catalyst as anything else.

Paul it’s you that keeps mentioning SF on every single article not me,as I already stated I could care less about them.However you seem obsessed with them,closest member perhaps?

@ Paul you seem to have Sein Fein on the brain , must see them as your competition for GE as you and your troll buddies try spin any article with your anti SF rants. P.S heard Gerry was seen around the grassy knoll in Dallas. Texas

Paul Carey, you have a very unhealthy obsession with all things Sinn Féin. You come across as sad and pathetic in your inane ramblings. I suppose it just goes to show how good a job Gerry et al have done in the past few years that people like you, Antrim, Pat Lyons etc are addicted to every article with a slight reference to republicans. Keep up the good work making yourself look desperate :D xxx

Clearly I have upset a large number of shinners today – Job done.
Anyway unlike some of you I have work to get back to.

@ Paul get back to FG HQ more like instead of work or is that what you call work “trolling” sites to rubbish Shinner’s . By the way I’ve never voted SF but you and your buddies negative comments encourage me to do so. Keep up the good work as Enda must be pleased.

Paul, sf/IRA are amongst our most disciplined political organizations and the network has been mobilised to bombard you with a prescribed message. The comments about you from all the shinnerbots (except prov shinnerbot) are totally organised and obviously, laughably robotic.

No dissent in Gerry’s 32 county imaginary republic.

Great another commentator who believes that anyone who disagrees with the government line is a Shinner,you sir are a moron.

@ Steve D your comment is ironic as Prov SH Bot is like yourself a FG troll you poor disillusioned bunch of troll’s all sing from the same hymn sheet and agree with each other’s comments. Tell Paul Carey hello as I’m sure your sitting beside him at HQ.

I’m a big fan of Prov Shinnerbot and his classic mocking of a semi-constitutional entity.

I’m not a fg member or supporter.

I don’t know Paul.

@steve ok if you say so ! Hi Paul

@Tir. Fair points you make about FF &FG. The problem is the only other ‘big party’ option is Sinn Fein. Leaving aside they they support murderers who shoot officers of the state in their cars how can we risk them running the Irish economy? People dont want to live in another Venezuela.

Thats the problem with left wing parties. They think that the mathematics of an economy can be ignored. That money will be magic’d up from somewhere and no hard choices need to be made.

The depressing thing is I agree with the left wing when it comes to social issues but cannot vote for them until they man up and realise that nothing is possible without a healthy economy.

Simon, if you are referring to Jerry McCabe (which I assume you are, as he and Jean McConville are the only two victims of a thirty year long conflict that the average joe in the free state knows about, or more crucially, wants to know about), then I assure you that Sinn Féin did not “support” that action. What they supported was the prisoner’s right to early release under the GFA as that it what the people voted for. Martin McGuinness called the murder of Jerry McCabe a criminal act. And lest ye forget that the independence enjoyed by 26 of our counties was won by an organisation which targeted and killed countless Irish, Catholic police officers.

Furthermore, we have a successful peace process thanks mainly to Sinn Féin and the work of Gerry Adams in particular. To quote the late Fr Alec Reid (who was often referred to as the ‘Chaplain to the Peace Process’), ““I would say that Gerry Adams was a man sent by God, in other words he was part of God’s providence for peace in Ireland.” He also went on to remark ““I’d say he’s the most capable politician we have and the other politicians mightn’t like that, but I’d say he’s one of the most capable politicians in Europe.” Your scaremongering catchphrase of Ireland turning into Venezuela if SF ever got into government is grounded in nothing but FG/FF/Lab spin and soundbites. It has no substance. SF’s proposed budgets are routinely costed. Sinn Féin’s budget proposals are there in black & white. They outline precisely where they propose to make savings. So again, the idea tat they plan to “magic-up” the money, is like the Venezuela remark, nothing but the re-hashing of the most amateurish tired spin that the government parties can muster. If you were one of those who voted for the GFA, you were voting for the idea that unionists should no longer be allowed to avoid sharing power with Sinn Féin. To expect unionists to do business with Sinn Féin but still believe parties and people south of the border shouldn’t be expected to do so, is just hypocrisy. The past is exactly that, the past. The people south of the border would find themselves a lot freer if they stopped living in it. As the centenary of the 1916 Rising approaches, it’s worth thinking about the ideals of the Proclamation. If you believe it’s ideals are achievable (as I do), then it’s also worth thinking about how likely FF or FG will be to create that sort of Ireland. They’ve had almost 100 years to do so now between them. They haven’t even tried. (In fact, we came within a few short years of having to mark the centenary of the 1916 Rising with the surrendering of fiscal sovereignty. Wouldn’t that have been an apt symbol of the direction Ireland has been taken by FF/FG/Lab.)

@ Tir, Not to harp on about the level of support SF did or not give those men but Martin Ferris did personally collect them from prison on their release.

I wonder how your average Garda feels about that.?

Also are you comparing the killing of officers of the republic to the killing of officers of the British empire in justifying that action?

TEG what you fail to understand is that a vast number of people in this country cannot contemplate the idea of voting for somebody who, be it in the past or the present, took part in, was connected with, condoned or failed to condemn, the murder of innocent civilians by a private army as a means to a political end. We are looking for people to run the country. It is an absolute bar to the many normal people for whom committing murder is unthinkable in all circumstances. You can argue the rights and wrongs, point out the failings of others or argue over particular cases but it is essentially irrelevant.

The IRA ceasefire was called in 1974 over a confusion of words between the IRA and the British over what the word ‘withdrawal’ meant… the Brits meant return of British Army to barracks and off the streets – teh IRA thought they meant a british withdrawal in its entirety. So 20 years later the IRA/Sinn Fáin accepted this (the brits interpretation) after 20 years of killing in the meantime – and now of course people like ‘tir eoghan gael’ and his cohort revisioninsts want to tell us that the war was about ‘Equality’ that really all along that ‘Brits Out’ was not the main objective but ‘equality’… now Tir Eoghan gael is even telling us that powersharing with Unionists was another reason the ‘war’ was fought… but IRA/SF never wanted power sharing in the six counties because they didn’t even recognise the state – now of course that is all changed and SF have taken the positions originally adopted by the SDLP…. laughable really… even the term ‘no selfish strategic interest’ was said by the Brits (every British Prime minister) in the 70′s but SF today will tell you they brought them to that point… all a smokescreen.

@ Stephen
He did indeed. He campaigned for their release as they were legally entitled to under the terms of the GFA and their continued imprisonment was a politically motivated, illegal tactic by FF. As I mentioned, Martin McGuinness stated quite openly that it was a criminal act. And as for the killing of officers in 1998, my point is that they, like Garda McCabe, were Irish police officers killed by Irishmen in Ireland.

Comrade Eoghain, how did you get rid of FF/FG in Tyrone?

@ Eel,

“In this country”? This country has 32 counties, and the largest party in it is Sinn Féin, so there are no shortage of people ready and willing to support them. It’s also worth remembering that according to the book Lost Lives, which chronicles every death in the conflict, that 75% of the PIRA’s victims were willing participants in the conflict. That is a figure which rates higher than for just about any armed group you can care to name, past or present, and is substantially higher a % than that of the Old IRA. Worth remembering that in a fraction of the time that the Provos were around, the Old IRA killed and disappeared approximately 200 people in the space of a handful of years, mostly innocent civilians. That’s a marked contrast to the 15 disappeared by the Provos over three decades. So what happened to the idea that the good people of the free state are too pure of heart to ever contemplate voting for people associated with a violent past like that? And that being the case, how come FF & FG regularly stand at memorials to men who took countless lives? And how come they will be eulogising the memory of the 1916 Volunteers in 2016? Volunteers who, without a mandate or popular support, started an armed rebellion in Dublin which took more civilians lives than any other lives? You wouldn’t be a hypocrite by any chance, would you?

@ Yates

I’d reply to some of your frankly bizzare conspiracy theories except that you keep referring to “SF/IRA”. Aside from the fact that no such group exists, the IRA itself hasn’t existed in almost ten years now. So you strike me as dangerously unqualified to engage in discussion with. I base that view on the old saying that you should never argue with an idiot, as they’ll bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Quality whataboutery Comrade Eoghain, proud of you.

Tir eoghan – well that’s really trumped my points hasn’t it? i was referring to SF/Ira from the 70′s when in fact they were one in the same… in place of SF/IRA – put in place ‘Republican movement’ if it makes you feel better… but instead of addressing hte points you instead try and attack the premise… Gerry has taught you well.. another sheep in sheeps clothing.

As for eulogising the men of 1916 – you think any of the signatories would have signed up to a six county statelet and take their wages from the Crown? hypocrisy is a barb that can be placed at the door of all parties claiming the legacy of 1916.. including Sinn Féin. Partition exists.. the British still hold the deeds.. and the IRA have been defeated… not much for the signatories to shout about… the whole system has failed the men of 1916 and now SInn Féin is as much a part of the hypocrisy as all the rest of the parties.

Yates, your entire analysis seems to be based on the premise that the change of tactics by republicans represented a defeat for the IRA. Didn’t you consider that the british Army itself doesn’t think that way? After they packed their bags and headed for home, they conducted an internal review of their 37 year long operation here, which found it’s way into the media’s hands. And their central finding? That they did not defeat the IRA, which they described as “a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force”. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6276416.stm
This is a sentiment echoed by Tony Blair (video on youtube) and by Former Commander in Chief of British land forces General James Glover, (video also on youtube).
So while you may be alone in your analysis that the IRA were defeated, the reality is that republicans were pragmatic enough to know when and why and how to change tactics.

TEG why are you playing semantics with me over use of the term “country”? – whether I am referring to 26 counties or 32, which I did not specify, is completely irrelevant. I said “a vast number of people”, that remains the case regardless.

I’t s not semantics. You referred to the swathes of people who you say could not countenance supporting Sinn Féin. I was merely pointing out that Sinn Féin are the largest party in Ireland. But if that’s the only bit of my reply you have to take issue with, then maybe we’re making some sort of progress.

I hadn’t time to make a full argument!

Anyway, your argument is that 75% of IRA victims were willing participants. I don’t think anyone needs me to highlight the problem with that!!

You’ve had time to reply twice since. so I’m afraid I’m not really buying your “hadn’t the time” argument. I’ll tell you what, rather than repeat myself, have another read of my initial reply to you, and get back to me with your counter arguments whenever you can fit it into your clearly busy schedule.

TEG, a serious question for you. What real experience do you have of living under FG/FF/Lab administrations? I have to admit as someone who has never lived in NI, I take little interest in what goes on up there politically and wouldn’t feel qualified to comment on how things are run there. While you cheerlead for Sinn Fein you will also be aware that 52% of respondents to today’s poll said they would never vote for the party in what you regularly sneeringly call the “Free State”.

TEG So the british army and tony blair patronise the ira as being great… Of course that wouldnt have anything to with it being in their interest to say that? What else would blair say… Let me ssk you this have the british left ireland? If after ww2 and say D day failed.. The. hitler and the allies agreed that german troops would go back to barracks but hitler would remain as leader would that be seen as a defeat or victory? You would have been a great apologist in vichy france.

The difference between you and me then, is that I as a proud Irish person, I concern myself with events in my whole country, not just part of it. That I firmly believe Irish reunification will happen only adds to the importance of concerning myself with events across the country.

As for why I refer to the “Free State”. I do so because I cannot and will not refer to 26 counties as being “Ireland”. Ireland has 32 counties. It does not stop at Dundalk or Emyvale or Lifford. My use of the term also stems from my utter contempt from the attitude you admit to holding yourself and that is so prevalent in the 26, which is the cancer of partitionism. Ireland fought for generations for full independence, and the fact that 26 counties can achieve it and have it’s population, for the most part, INSTANTLY turn their backs on the people of the 6 counties left behind and openly profess to taking “little interest” in it, is totally and utterly shameful. It’s my honest view that in time, Irish history will judge the people and governments of the 26 counties in a very unfavorable light for their response (or lack thereof) to the partition of the country and their lack of knowledge or interest in the conditions forced at gunpoint upon the nationalist people left behind in the six counties. Symptomatic of this disinterest in the six counties is the fact that this conflict in the six counties went on for over three decades and over 3,000 people lost their lives.; and yet if I were to do a random vox pop of people in the 26 counties, and ask them to name just two victims from any stage in it, that the same two names, Jerry McCabe & Jean McConville, would be mentioned in almost all cases. Why? Because those two people fit the narrative that the free state media has fed the people since Section 31 days, that SF and the IRA were are the root of all the problems and that the IRA started the conflict. I recently listened to the Irish “Foreign” Minister (yes, the Free State’s government minister with responsibility for the six counties is referred to as the “foreign” minister, on the tv claiming that the IRA murdered over 3,000 people in the troubles. Essentially, he stated that every victim was killed by the IRA. Did the presenter or anybody else challenge him? No. It wouldn’t suit the narrative to do so. Would many people south of the border be able to name two victims of loyalists or of the British Army without resorting to google? Some chance. That alone stands as an indictment.

Ah ok so an internal British Army document and the British PM were wrong about their assessment of the campaign cos’ some fella that calls himself “Sergeant Yates” knows best?

“The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland”

Not my words TEG but the words of the Irish Constitution, which you evidently don’t recognise.

Anyway, I do have time now, and may I apologise for not ranking you as my main priority for the day.

My point remains; that for very many (I never said a majority nor did I limit the country to 26 counties) people, there is a moral problem with voting for somebody who commits or supports murder, and no amount of contextualising, excusing or comparison will change that. You should be able to agree with me on that many people old this view, I’m not asking you to agree with this view.

The comparison with 1916 and the violent actions of the founders of the state, many of whom would go on to form the parties that would give rise to Fianna Fail and Fine Gael is problematic for several reasons – the validity of the cause for one (In 1921 the rebels had the backing of the majority will of the people, whereas in the context of Northern Ireland the Ira represented a minority seeking to impose unification on a majority) – and secondly of course the time remove (no FF or FG politician in my lifetime had direct or indirect involvement in the IRB/IRA campaigns from the founding of the state).

Having said that, is there still a degree hypocrisy in eulogising one while condemning the other?, yes, you are probably right, I believe there is to some extent. There is no doubt that the actions of 1916-1921 brought about a significant result in a relatively swift period, but that does not absolve all of their actions in so doing. Many acts that were committed in the long struggle for Irish independence do not sit easily with me and I would have preferred that the results were achieved in other ways. They were not, and history is history, and I now benefit from those results.

I am fiercely proud of my country, and my state, but that does not require me to be proud of every action carried out in its name. Fortunately for me I am not faced with the dilemma of deciding whether I should vote for a person who committed questionable acts in the name of my freedom. If Tom Clarke or Eamonn Ceannt were on my ballot paper, would I have concerns over their fitness for office? Yes, probably.

Teg… The irony is that im a proud irish republican who believes that Adams and SF have absconded republicanism.. To claim im partionist yet you support a party that has enforced it.. Republicanism is not owned by sinn fein.

Btw Blair and the british army say those thongs to give people like yourself to give credence to the notion that the IRA did not lose.. But the reality is that SF convinced many people that they had achieved victory when in reality all they achieved was what was on offer in the 70′s.

Eel, the issue in your opening paragraph is that you claim Sinn Féin supports murder. That is a plain & simple lie in that it presents the IRA campaign as nothing but murderous. There is a difference between a freedom fighter and a murderer. The PIRA was formed by a people who were under immeasurably worse discrimination than was lived through by those who give rise to the Old IRA. When a people have their basic rights taken from them by a state which then denies them the right to partake in the democratic process, and employs it’s police and army to collude with local gangs to systematically assasinate them and when the police force harass/abuse them on the roads and in their homes & act a police for one half of the community, then there quite simply is no law and the reaction under such circumstances anywhere on earth will be the same: those people will sooner or later fight back. Like the Old IRA, the emergence of the Provos was inevitable, & like the Old IRA, the Provos carried out reprehensible acts but that cannot/will not take away from the legitimacy of their campaigns as a whole. As someone who lived through the darkest days of the orange state and suffered personally at the hands of the state “police”, I can only say that I will be forever grateful to Sinn Féin because they are the only ones who were really there for us, while FF/FG turned their backs. That’s something the nationalist people of the six counties will remember when a reunited Ireland does come around.

@ yates

Since when have Sinn Féin claimed victory? Can you point it out to me? Last I checked, they regarded a united Ireland as their main objective and regard the struggle to achieve it as ongoing.

Jesus TEG you do realise your the living embodiment of the reasons so many people down here want “nordies” to stay up north. You are painfuly arrogant and it grates with you that so many of us couldn’t care less about you, SF, the unionists and your entire warped little statelet!

And you’re the living embodiment a partitionist, free state cretin. Exactly the type of person that future generations will look back at with shame and embarrassment.

I’ll agree with you on one thing though. The six counties is indeed a horrible warped little statelet which should never have come into existence in the first place. Though I’d go further and say the 26 counties is a horrible, warped, greed-based sorry excuse for a republic led throughout it’s existence by self-serving, corrupt gangsters and gombeens.

But one day Ireland will be a proper 32 county, real, Republic. Beir bua :)

P.s. You’re from Sligo, Justin? Countess Markievicz spent quite a bit of time in Tyrone as it happens. She’d no doubt be very proud of you.

TEG the IRA claimed victory.. The SF line which you espouse is that they brought the british to accept the present status quo.. When in fact it was on offer since the 70′s the reality is that the time since was a waste of time.. In your last number of posts you claim that the six counties is a failed entity.,if thats the case why do you support the SF governance of it? Do you not see tge hypocrisy in your pronouncements??
The reality is that the IRA objective of brits out is failed.. SF are now fulfilling the ideals of sunningdale.. Thats the reality no matter how you dress it up.

I wonder why she bothered, it’s clear from your continuous billowing of faux republican propaganda that there’s bugger all to do up there, lissadell their enormous landed gentry home is so much nicer! Night night now, don’t let that bile in your craw keep you up late.

Yates, vSunningdalec was brought down curly as a result of Paisley amd the lpyalist threat of untold violence. It took quite a few years of relative peace and a new police force before the current arrangements bedded in. That anybody seriously things conditions were right for Sunningdale to have succeeded is fanciful in the extreme. And again, can you point me towards where Sinn Féin have apparently claimed victory?

Why did she bother, Justin? Because she probably didn’t forsee the nation bring partitioned and the people of those counties that got their independence turning their backs on the rest and probably didn’t foresee the existence of a soulless, spineless, greed driven, corrupt 26 county gombeenocracy with the shamelessness to call itself a republic.

Tell you what, Justin…how about this for an idea…Rather than engage in petty abusive nonsense, you try to engage in ‘grown-up people’ debate and take some of my specific points from my previous posts, and actually provide a rational, coheremt counter argument or two? I assume that’s not beyond you?

So now you are suggesting SF snd ira had different objectives.., if you look at statements st the time both loyalists snd republicans wanted Sunningdale to fail.. In 86 mcguinness said only the cutting edge of the IRA would bring a united ireland… You bring semantic with words only belies the hypocrisy your argument has.. So now your narrative is that SF and ira had diffferent objectives .. Yet the leaderships of both cross over.. You’re confused in your own ideology.. Like most so called republicans in SF.. The reality is that SF and the IRA spoke the same words ie brits out.. Six months before the GFA was signed gerry kelly and adams told republicans they would never sign up to a sox county parliament.. You’re deluded.. What has happened is the inevitable no change to status of the north and the 26 counties relinquishing control through the destruction of articles 3 and 3 of even the claim on the six counties.. A victory for the british.. A victory for unionism and the status of ‘northern ireland’ enshrined in internationsl law.. Not even sunningdale achieved that for the british.

Btw the right of consent of unionists was opposed by sinn fein in the 70′s.. They claimed consent was not true because the six counties were a manufsctured entity .. The true consent goes back to 1918.. So if you can explain how unionist consent fits in with irish republicanidm that would br great also.

Yates you are taking total crap based on nothing more than arguing against a point I didnt even make. I have never suggested that Sinn Féin and the IRA wanted different things. My point all along was that republicans were pragmatic enough to know if and when a change in tactic was required. You appear to heavily be you’re argument on the notion that Sinn Féin now proclaim victory. I’ve asked you several times to assistant’s that claim and you haven’t been able to. You and I and they all know that Sinn Féin’s stated objective has not yet been achieved. And if course republicans opposed Sunningdale at the time. It was pie in the sky stuff. The Orange state (and it’s armed wings) were both firmly rooted in place and to believe sunningdale of all things would have forced a change to that is utter silliness. In a state where the was a clearly defined second class citizenship, it was a document which did not even mention the word equality one. And as I said, even if republicans did support it, it wouldn’t have been implemented due to the threat of untold bloodshed from loyalists, led by Paisley.

People like yourself always take the easy potion in this argument which is to assume that unless republicans sick rigidly to one tactic, that they therefor ‘lost’. What, can you me, would you suggest they should have done?

TEG – i’m not suggesting they should have done anything different i’m merely pointing out their hypocrisy by accepting something they said they never would and disguising it as something else… while their supporters come on sites like this and tell us that the IRA campaign was fought for equality when it wasn’t… it was about removing the British from Ireland. In that end the campaign has failed – and as for ‘pie in the sky’ stuff – how was sunningdale different from the GFA – only that it didn’t give the extremists power?

Of course they’re doing things they once said they wouldn’t ffs. It’s called moving with the times. It’s called pragmatism. It’s called recognising when circumstances change and reacting accordingly. To regard doing so as a defeat is more than a bit naive. The IRA campaign was part of a long struggle. They aimed to force britain out that doesn’t mean that they were under any obligation to stick to armed action if and when a change in tactics was possible. Republicans came to the point where armed struggle brought britain to the talks table in a serious way. It took Britain that long to realise, as they have conceeded themseles, that they could not militarily defest the IRA. It was that achievement by the IRA which paved the way for republicans to change tactics. The docklands bombing don’t forget took place as a direct response to John Major not taking the talks seriously. When he did, it provided the opportunity for militant republicanism to pave the way for electoral republicanism in order to continue the same struggle for the same consistent cause. And I have already outlined why it is totally bogus to pretend (or else staggeringly stupid) to believe that sunningdale could have worked in the society of the day. You can re-read those comments if you like to save me repeating myself.

If you think its all about economics your wrong

Feel free to name some issues that are more important…