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CHILDREN’S MINISTER CHARLIE Flanagan has been advised that the Commission of Investigation being set up to examine mother-and-baby homes may need to examine over 100 institutions.
Flanagan held a meeting with a number of groups campaigning on behalf of survivors today, as the Government continues its interdepartmental review of information spanning a number of Departments.
It’s expected the Commission, set up in wake of the recent scandal over the mother-and-baby home in Tuam, will be established before the summer recess.
“We’ve come up with a list of around 100 institutions,” Susan Lohan of the Adoption Rights Alliance told TheJournal.ie following their meeting today.
That would be including, but not limited to, county homes, mother-and-baby homes, Magdalene Laundries, private nursing homes, hospitals, mental institutions, and really very small mother-and-baby homes that would otherwise slip through the radar.
“I got the impression he was relieved that our initial estimates were putting it at a figure of about 100.”
Along with the ARA, representatives of the ‘First Mothers’ group also met with the Minsiter this morning. Sean Lucey, a historian from Queens University and an expert on the county homes, also attended — as did Katherine O’Donnell, a senior lecturer in Women’s Studies in UCD and an advisor to the Justice For Magdalenes group.
Survivors of the Bethany Home and other Protestant-run institutions attended a later meeting with Flanagan, at midday.
‘Rocky start’
Lohan said the meeting had got off to a “rocky start” as the campaigners briefed Flanagan on meetings they held with Stormont politicians last week on opening the planned probe up into a cross-border investigation.
“The Minister was a little dismissive of that and didn’t want to talk about it because he didn’t have any jurisdiction there.
But we would urge him, and politicians both sides of the border, to look at the Good Friday Agreement and see what scope there is for taking a 32-county approach to some aspects of this.
Regarding the inclusion of the county homes in the probe, Lohan said “the minister didn’t say ‘no’ but he was at pains to suggest that this would be an independent Commission of Inquiry”.
I think he might have been taken aback when we said the starting point for the inquiry should be the foundation of the state in 1922.
‘Learning curve’
Lohan said the group was “still in a learning curve as well” on the matter of how many institutions should be included, and stressed the need for an appropriate publicity campaign to encourage survivors to come forward.
“We could name maybe seven really big mother-and-baby homes in Ireland,” Lohan said.
There are probably victims out there who haven’t spoken about their experiences.
“Let’s start advertising in the media that this Commission wants to hear from people who had this type of experience… Forced adoption, incarceration, vaccine trials, medical experiments, forced labour, cruel and unusual punishment, withholding of adequate medical attention.”
Lohan said care should be taken to ensure the media notices avoid an “adversarial” tone.
Protestant homes
Following their meeting with the Minister, campaigners representing survivors of the Bethany and other Protestant-run homes said they were broadly satisfied with the proceedings.
The Minister confirmed on the day the Commission was announced that the home, on Dublin’s Orwell Road, would be included in the current process, and a campaign has been ongoing to have other Church of Ireland institutions examined too.
Niall Meehan, who chairs the Bethany Survivor’s Campaign, said Flanagan had told them he was anxious to see the other homes, including the Westbank and Ovoca orphanages in Wicklow, included.
The Minister listened “with intent” to the testimony of former residents, Meehan said, and the meeting ended in a positive tone.
“Other protestant groups have been excluding like Bethany in the past. We don’t want them to suffer the same kind of stress at being excluded as we did,” Meehan told TheJournal.ie.
All of these institutions were related to the Bethany. All of them contained very young children.
Speaking ahead of his meeting with the Minister, Meehan said there was a danger that the inquiry could be elongated “to such an extent that people start dying”.
“Our oldest survivor was born in 1929. Many are in their 60s, 70s and 80s. If the inquiry goes on too long, they will simply die.”
Response
In a statement released in the wake of today’s meetings, Minister Flanagan acknowledged calls had been made ”for the inclusion of a range of other institutions and concerns” in the weeks since the Commission was announced.
“These will be given consideration as part of the process underway,” the statement said.
I am pleased to have an opportunity to meet with a number of advocacy groups as well as the Opposition spokespersons this week. Any submissions made to me during these consultative meetings, which are ongoing, will be fed into the process.
“I am working on an inclusive basis on this important initiative and I wish to see an effective Commission in place which will address these important matters on a sensitive and timely basis.”
Flanagan is also meeting with religious leaders this week as part of the ongoing process.
His statement added:
Agreement on the terms of reference of the Commission is a matter for Government and it is my intention that the Oireachtas will agree the terms of reference under the Commission of Investigations Act 2004, before the summer recess.
An email address — motherandbabyhomes@dcya.gov.ie — was set up last week for people to make submissions on the terms of reference.
A deadline of next Monday at midday has been set for those wishing to submit their views.
Originally published 4.53pm
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“if the enquiry goes on too long, they will die.” that’s the whole point. Our government, of whatever shade, protecting the ‘tax payer’. This has been going on as long as I’ve been alive. Further, it is noticeable that on many fora people will champion victims, but when ‘compo’ enters the picture the victims become dastards who are leeching off the rest of us. Go figure.
Much focus is on “the state” and “institutions” and “religions”, as if this happened without the knowledge of the Irish people, entirely in secret. The real question to be answered is what was it about Irish society that allowed this to happen? Relatives of these individuals and society in general turned a blind eye to all of this.
The answer to what happened to society is that it followed the teachings of the Catholic Church with out question.People were paralysed with fear of either being outcasts in this life or cast into the fires of hell in the next.
Paddy, you are correct. The CC surely does have a whole lot to answer for in all of this but also so does the people who stood by and watch this happen. Parents sent their children to these homes; they knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it. I think John B hit the nail on the head here. It can’t come as any surprise to anyone over the age of 60 in Ireland that this was going on, on a massive scale.
TBH. Anybody who tried to stand up in even the smallest way was cut to shreds. Look at what they did to Noel Brown for example. If they could destroy a doctor and TD what chance did anyone else have of standing against. Look at the Fethard Boycott when they though they were loosing control of just one family. They basically destroyed them. Outside of family issues look at what the did to the likes of James Joyce and Sam Beckett.They were treated so badly they had to exile themselves from Ireland.
I ask you what chance did a poorly educated man or woman have against this monster of an organisation ?
If they had not commited their ‘fallen’ daughter to the laundries the rest of their family risked destruction in society for at least two generations.
Now look around the Ireland we live in today. Our national broadcaster wont hold a debate on anything they consider a moral issue without some priest or other emmisary of the CC being present.They still hold veto power in schools and hospitals. They owe hundreds of millions to those they have abused and claim poverty.The list is extensive as to how they still control much of what happens in this state.
When you see some of us not giving an inch to anyone defending the CC its because we are well aware of what their capable of not because we are intolerant of religion in general. I am a child of the mother and baby home in Besboro Cork.
*We dont give an inch because we recognise how hard it was for those who came before us to get us to this point .I personaly feel its my obligation to speak out against the suffering that the CC has caused because of my own personal experiences and that of my mother.The CC now tries to spread lies that we are intolerant of their religion and that they are the victims and that we should be silenced through blasphamy laws or , religious hate speach laws.
I trust I have explained why it would have been so difficult to stand up to it even 20 years ago never mind 50 or 100.
Fear of the church
John B: It is grossly unfair and unjust to put the blame on “Irish society” en masse. I agree that the girl’s parents should take part of the blame for betraying their daughters to this Church approved atrocity. But to blame all of Irish society, is the same as blaming the entire German people for the crimes of the Nazis! The Roman Catholic Church are to blame, closely followed by the craven cowards in the Irish Government of the time, who kow-towed and ass-licked the priests and bishops who ruled with an iron fist in the Ireland of the 1920′s to the 1980′s.
But that time is now over, and it is up to the present Government to see that justice is done for the victims … and without undue delay.
You can’t rush a good whitewash job. When the state is as guilty as the religious orders why are these groups not asking the UN to investigate these houses of evil. The state is only too happy to watch survivors die and the world forgets the true meaning of Ireland being a catholic country.
Should be a criminal investigation.
The Indo are reporting many of the babies remains were sent to Trinity and UCD for science http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/revealed-bodies-of-infants-used-for-university-research-30382242.html
It was known to government in the 70′s. We are at the point where medical experiments , forced imprisonment , slave labour,sale of babies for profit , torture, the deliberate starvation of ‘defective children’ , sale of remains for disection and much more are known to have happened at these places. The government was knew what their religious masters were up to and did nothing then.The present government is waiting for everyone involved to die so that the problem goes away much like the women and children went away.
FFS our ‘government’ are not even treating mass graves as crime scenes.
An independant international inquiry is needed NOW. We are signatories to the International Court in the Hague.They have the powers to come in and investigate this without an invitation. Where the hell are they.
why did they pick minister Flanagan to head up the inquiry. The son of former minister Oliver J Flanagan , a known antisemite Right wing Roman Catholic who was granted a knighthood by the pope. The UN needs to be brought in to investigate this . The Irish government cannot be trusted,
Could it be because it was his father was one of those who managed to brush the report that came out in the 70′s under the carpet? He is person you want touching this. He ran for the Dail on his fathers name and openly admits to being a devout member of the CC. In other words the CC managed to get their guy to run the investigation against them when it should be an indendant criminal one.
What report was that in the 70s? Do you think that was why he was awarded a knighthood ?
@bishop. Sussssh!!!!!We must maintain the illusion that this is all new to the government and that their shock is genuine.
I don’t trust this government to deal with the enquiry into The Mother and Baby homes. nor do I trust Flanagan
Whose Father was a right wing Catholic. I’m sure his son must be the same mould. We need the investigation
From an independent source away from the government or the CC. The UN or Human rights would be a good choice, otherwise, I can’t see the investigation being transparent. This scandal of The Mother and baby homes
Is SO Serious that any fear of it being swept under the carpet would be another scandal
The bill for this investigation should be carried by the associated press, who caused this problem with untrue headlines, damaging Ireland’s reputation worldwide.
It has now become obvious that many of the deaths occurred because of outbreaks of disease such as measles prior to the availability of medicines.
What we are looking at is exactly the same phenomenon that kept the the age of death for the population at large so low.
I had an uncle who died of an appendix rupture, at the age of 23, something that rarely happens today.
The AP saw an opportunity to make the nuns look bad, and couldn’t wait for the facts. Shame on them.
Paddy, can you explain why your organisation, Catholic Comment, has applied for charitable status, when your main raison d’etre is not charitable, but to speak, and train people in speaking, in support of the Catholic church?
@ Were Jammin
No. I feel no obligation to explain to an anonymous protagonist of everything liberal, why catholic comment applies for charity status.
“protagonist of everything liberal”
Paddy lad say that as if it was a negative…
@ John Everyman
That would depend on the perception of the reader. But Ireland’s name was sullied internationally by the associated Press, acting as the agents for that intolerant liberal view, that has crept into our culture.
Here is a view from a catholic source from abroad, worth a read;
http://www.catholicleague.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/IRELANDS-MASS-GRAVE-HYSTERIA.pdf
Paddy, the infant mortality rates in so-called mother and baby homes was, in many cases, up to five times higher than in the general population.
You can spin this story all you like but no-one believes you.
What are they mixing into the communion wafers nowdays Paddy?
You honestly believe that the CC is the victim in all of this and your proof is an article written by the CC.
Your sounding like the victim of an MK Ultra brainwashing experiment.
The CC’s very own manchurian candidate.
Look its very simple. Its nearly over for the CC in Ireland. So much so that when a guy decides to become a priest nowdays it makes national news.
We are in an age where we are seeing the begining of the end of catholic infulence on public life and their power over those who dare question it.
You can still choose to have whatever faith you like and worship how you like.
You cannot impose your beliefs on anyone else. Not anymore.
“But Ireland’s name was sullied internationally by the associated Press, acting as the agents for that intolerant liberal view”
Jesus Christ.
Paddy lad, Ireland’s name was sullied (again) by the actions of your repressive church, not by the media outlets which reported these outrages.
Blame the media sure, blame the liberals, blame the lack of medicine. But god forbid we blame the people actually responsible: your heinous Roman cult.
Your attempt to gloss of the atrocity at Tuam is absolutely disgusting, but given your well document views on women and LGBT people I can’t say I am surprised.
You are an embarrassment to this country and it is people like you who are sullying our image.
@ Jane Travers
It is a shocking reality when viewed from a sterilised 2014, with our overuse of antibiotics. But what do to think happened in a home with say fifty children in close quarters, when one contracted chickenpox, polio or TB. Being remotely located in a loving family, certainly improved ones chances.
@ Paddy Hannigan
No need to reply.
@ John Everyman
John, you do realise the associated press has apologised, for the way it mislead the world.
Paddy
How do you excuse the appalling treatment those children received from the nuns who were supposed to care for them? Those children received no love, no comfort, not even any dignity in death.
How do you excuse the fact that many died of starvation?
How do you excuse survivor’s accounts of food being dished out in troughs at the end of the room, and having to run and push and shove in order to get any food at all, never mind a decent share?
I wouldn’t treat an animal the way these so-called loving Christians treated the vulnerable children in their care.
Paddy lad your church is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of children. This is a FACT, not liberal spin as you would have people believe. How many of those nuns died of malnutrition?
At least have the balls to admit that you support a church which is responsible for these horrors. Don’t try to deflect the blame like a coward.
@paddy.Too difficult to argue with the truth I guess. When you try to defend what the CC has done some will choose to turn it up to 11 when putting that argument back in its box.
Personally my pulse rate barely rises anymore when dealing with those who try to argue in defence of the CC.
It is nice to see that you and people like you are unable to respond.By you saying that there is no need to just proves that at least you know when you are out of your depth.
Keep up the good work. Its good catholics like yourself who will eventually finish the organisation.
@ Jane Travers
First of all Jane, do you accept that the sensational headlines were lies.
Secondly, neither you nor I were there to judge the love or lack of love given to these children.
I read an article two weeks ago written in the 30′s in a Tuam paper by an inspector. He was full of praise for what the nuns achieved with nominal state financial support. He was pleading for additional state funds for the children, which were not forthcoming.
Anyone who attended school at that time could tell you stories of the hardship endured, and there were indeed some cruel teachers and carers. But there also were many teachers and carers who loved and supported their cares.
This is the third incident in as many years, where the press have jumped on stories to malign individuals, or change our laws; all of which have eventually been discredited.
The other side of this story of course is that rather than being cruel to the babies today, we choose to abort them rather than allow them take their first breath. Is it our ancestors, or ourselves are the true horrors? How self righteous we have become.
” rather than being cruel to the babies today, we choose to abort them”
You heard it here first folks, Paddy Scully of Catholic Comment believes that it’s more acceptable to be cruel to unwanted children than to end a pregnancy.
What a sick individual.
Those who protect and defend child abusers are as evil as the perpetrators of these vile deeds
Paddy, your ability to brainwash yourself is staggering.
@ John Everyman
As ever John you rush to judgement with your usual badge of hatred for the church up front.
No John, I don’t accept that the church killed anyone in the way you are implying, without any evidence of course. True to form.
Children died, very few from Marasmus, but many from measles and hooping cough. Of those who died from Marasmus it appears many arrived at the centres already under nourished, their mothers without sufficient breast milk, and the formulae of the time being very poor.
But I know facts only get in the way of your favourite blood sport.
And still no hard evidence, just keep throwing mud, perhaps some will stick.
Here we go, Paddy lad tries once again to stifle any criticsim of his church by dismissing it as irrational hatred.
Listed here lad, there is nothing irrational about my disdain of your church; it is a misogynistic, homophobic bastion of reactionary thought which has stifled this country’s intellectual and social development for decades. It has covered up the crimes of child rapists while preaching about morality; it lied to millions of people by claiming that condoms spread AIDS and of course it has butchered millions in its centuries long quest to stamp out anything it considers “heretical”. Such a church deserves to be treated with loathing.
It hardly matters that you “don’t accept that the church killed anyone” just like it hardly matters that die hard catholics called the victims of clerical abuse liars. It happened; and the sickeningly wealthy organisation you support is responsible.
@ John Everyman
I’m glad to see you changing the subject, because you know you have no proof, at this point in time, of any malice or wrongdoing.
So you jump back to your comfort blanket of the abuse issues. Well John, that was a tragic issue for the victims, and the churches slow reaction was disgraceful. What would you do without your blanki.
Let me remind you Paddy lad it was you who brought up my disdain for the church, not me. Which one of us changed the subject?
No proof? The malnourished and disease ridden remains of children discovered in church run homes don’t count no? The fact that the mortality rate in those homes was five times higher than the rest of the country doesn’t count either I suppose? Neglect causing death or injury is a crime Paddy lad, even when catholics do it.
Oh and just for future reference, by throwing out “comfort blanket” jabs you only make yourself look even sillier. Remind me, which one of us feels the need to listen to fairy tales every sunday to find comfort?
Paddy I doubt you’d raise an eyebrow in disgust if you seen the nuns smash those children against the rocks .
It’s the likes of Paddy’s ilk and kin that has sullied Ireland’s name by their ardent support of the catholic church . An organisation that had perpetrated the most heinous crimes against humanity .An organisation that has a long history of preying on the most defenceless and weakest in society.
Paddy’s Jesuit overlords have trained him poorly in the art of disinformation and untruths. His persistent denial of the atrocities committed by the Catholic Church against defenceless children , babies and young mothers are pathetic at best. Paddy chooses to ignore the overwhelming evidence of these crimes . Evidence that was even supplied by the very church he supports.
Agreed John , I believe those that support and protected the abusers were worse they should all have millstones around their necks.
The Catholic Church in Ireland is on the brink of imploding and Paddy and his ilk know this. This makes me extremely happy .
Thats because they were all in the same building and disease was spread from one to the other.
Well said paddy….
@ John Everyman
Dear John, it always amazes me, your deductive powers. All we know so far is children died, but your deductive powers; despite the fact that the AP has said its headlines were fiction; can analyse their remains from a distance, and provide definitive conclusions. I take my hat off to you, if I had one. I can’t actually see why the state has to engage in an enquiry, when your opinion is already out there.
But I’m sure you’ll milk the story for all the ill will you can generate towards your pet hate. By the time the facts are verified, I’m sure you’ll have some other fiction upon which to can exercise your venom.
I have a very clear understanding of individuals in my church, we are all miserable sinners. I am never surprised, even though I’m always disappointed, when individuals kill, brutalise, or damage their fellow man. But that is the human condition. Only the church offers a way for reconciliation, and the state is obliged to do its duties by the law. May justice prevail in this incident, and may those who falsely accuse good people, find the courage to seek forgiveness, if that is necessary, when the facts appear.
Dont forget the parents of these women and young girls put them out. These wonen were glad of sonewhere to go.
@ Beabad Bishop
So first they were throwing them into septic tanks, and now they are smashing the children against rocks! I must have met the wrong nuns when I grew up. All I can say is let the reader beware.
As for my kind and ilk; I’m the 9th generation in my home place; I’m proud of my families stories from the famine times, from the white boys, etc. My ken were indeed normal good Catholics, probably just like your own.
Paddy Scully: – The bill for this investigation should be carried by the Roman Catholic Church and the Irish Government …. nobody else! The reputation of Ireland and the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Nuns and Priests, etc. were destroyed several years ago, when these atrocities were first uncovered. Trying to pin the blame on the Associated Press is laughable, they are not the ones who committed the atrocities, they were just reporting on the story, even though they got a couple of details incorrect – which they have since apologised for.
You sound like an apologist for this evil organisation (RCC), but taking a look at your facebook page, I see that you are a fan of EWTN, so it does not surprise me! The EWTN are a fundamentalist, bigoted, dinosaur Catholic Cult T.V. programme, who believe we are still living in medieval times! The day of the Roman Catholic cult’s iron grip on world is well and truly over.
@ Margaret Cantwell
Margaret, the problem with a statement like that, is you are already judge, jury, and hangman.
The reason I pointed the cost towards the associated press, was that they created the fallacious headlines which sparked the “crises”.
I could also, in a very provocative way, suggest the people of this country should, if the nuns are found innocent, consider paying them for all the service rendered, including the night hours, the cost of them foregoing a family life of their own etc etc. all given in service of those in need at that time. I’m sure the good ones are reaping their reward, and likewise those who were cruel.
It is so easy to cast stones from a safe historical distance, in a plush sofa.
Paddy you’ve made a good point, although you seem to have missed it yourself. If the mothers in these places had been able to bring their babies home, or even allowed to feed and care for them properly, the death rate would not have been as high.
@ Valerie Desmond
You are correct Valerie, if the children could move out with their mothers they would have had a better chance. But many of these women were malnourished themselves, and incapable of feeding their children. The economic crisis caused much starvation.
The other issue that is often misrepresented by the church bashers is the puritanical attitude that forced the expectant unmarried mothers into these homes, did not have its origins in Catholicism, but in Victorianism that came to Ireland following the famine. This puritanical Victorianism also made its way into the church.
Ah paddy blames everyone but the church. The problem with the church is a global one . It wasn’t just isolated to Ireland they raped , murdered and trafficked children all over the world from Canada to Australia. Their victims run into the millions. Still the Catholic Church shield criminal priests from prosecution. They even made a saint of a former pope who was known to cover up child abuse. The organisation is an abomination and many of its followers are waking up to this .
The Catholic Church should be tried for crimes against humanity, torture, physical and mental, child sexual abuse, rape of men and women, detention of unwed mothers, selling of babies, medical testing on babies, Mass graves, Discrimination towards LGBT, the is more than a whiff go naziism going on here, when will they be truly held accountable, and actually have consequences for their actions
I think we need to take ourselves back in time to that era. I personally think the conditions they lived in would be a cause of a lot of the deaths. Disease spreads from one child to another. They had very little hope. Without those homes those women had no where to go because their own families put them out.
Sorry, sad comment and grossly inaccurate
Mary
You are a rock of common sense. It was families and communities who hid the problem cause by pregnancy outside of marriage and it was exactly the same in the Protestant community. I recall the shame of two families so blighted in the late fifties and their little problem was dumped in a Mother and Baby home. Nobody cared about the fate of the child and the stain of that sin remained with both parties for the rest of their young lives.
Considering both churches share a common ancestry and even today agree on more things than they disagree why would it come as a supprise that they would employ some of the same methods to control their followers as the CC uses to control its ??
Of course you dont mean that because the COI had these homes that the CC cant be held responsible for its crimes ?? Protestantism and Catholicism are, to an outsider, two cheeks of the same arse.
Not inaccurate at all actually
Thank you sir…
Remember ‘Anne Lovett’ n that was early 80s…. I had a baby same year n was banished from home to a lonely place,horrific time for me… Perents collected me after I had a horrible n lonely birth,never spoke of her,took it to the grave…. They didn’t even follow the church…. Sadly my mother took this to her grave cos she never had the guts to hold her head up!!!! My feelings… Nobody’s judgement…..
I agree, poverty was rife and disease was rampant, no-one was immune, some nuns also died from that same diseases while caring for the mothers and babies around the Country.
At the rate the government like to do things, we’ll all for
Die of old age
“Listened with intent” or listened intently?
There is a documentary on TV3 tonight about the Tuam mother and baby scandal. It is on from 9.00 to 10 p.m.
have your say