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LAST OCTOBER, two children were taken from their families. Who stole them? Was it Gypsies?
The Taoiseach, Minister for Justice and Acting Garda Commissioner this week apologised to two Roma families whose children were taken from them last year. With the Children’s Ombudsman saying there were clear elements of ethnic profiling to the case, we should ask how such a thing could happen.
Against the backdrop of international media hysteria over a Greek case where a blonde four-year-old girl “Maria” (eventually proven to be herself Roma) was found living in a Roma camp, one member of the public emailed the Garda missing person bureau using the subject line: “Suspected child abduction”. They recounted having seen a Roma woman with a “very blond” baby with “the bluest eyes”. An hour later, a Facebook “tip-off” told TV3′s Paul ‘Ireland’s Bogus Beggars’ Connolly that a similar case might exist in Tallaght. Naturally, he called the Garda Press Office.
These two “tip-offs” were utterly unfounded but they led to Garda taking both children from their families and placing them in the overnight care of the HSE. DNA tests eventually proved that both children were exactly who their parents said they were. It is hard to imagine the depth of the trauma felt by both families.
The Children’s Ombudsman, Emily Logan, has spoken of “a widespread belief that the Roma are ‘child-abductors’” informing the readiness to believe that “Maria” was abducted. She expressed the belief that Garda “were not sufficiently sensitive to the possibility that stereotypes could play a role in their decision-making and this triggered a chain of events that caused enormous distress to the children and families”.
The Roma are, to many Irish people, despised outcasts who are seen as being up to every scam in the book. “Gypsies, tramps and thieves”, to quote an old song. I know some Roma. I can’t claim any particular insight beyond the staggeringly-original observation that, for all our cultural differences, people are just people, as ordinary and extraordinary as everyone else.
I used to sell broadband and made some friends amongst Cork’s Roma families. I was welcomed with a look which perhaps recognised a fellow chancer.
I’ve eaten and drank in Roma homes and have been on the receiving end of a sardonic humour which makes the worst excesses of the Irish “I’m only slagging” seem like a wry smile by comparison. We native Irish have a dark sense of humour. History will do that to you. When I was small, my Granny told me about the experiences of her grandmother, who lived through the Famine.
The Irish have the Famine and the British and the Catholicism and the rain. The Roma, though, have been on the wrong side of polite society since, their legends say, a Roma blacksmith forged the nails for the Crucifixion and Jesus condemned them to wander the Earth landless.
If the Famine, 170 years ago, has had a scarring effect on the Irish psyche, then we should remember that in living memory Adolf Hitler tried to wipe out the Roma. As many as 1.5 million Roma were murdered in the Holocaust – or as the Roma know it, the Porajmas.
The Roma I knew didn’t mix with the wider community, instead existing very much on the margins of society. Most were young, to my eyes terribly young to be parents, but they clearly loved their children, boisterous and cheeky children who seemed both happy and healthy. The men sold second-hand cars and scrap metal, the women went into the city, mostly to beg.
For many Roma, begging is a way of life. Some venture further into criminality. I have Garda friends who would tar the entire Roma community as criminals and who would be baffled at accusations of racism.
I once met a Roma kid I recognised, begging outside Eason’s. He had a sign saying “I DEAF DUMB PLEASE HELP” and a single tear rolling down his cheek. He was good. Suddenly, though, technology betrayed him with a Nokia ringtone. He smiled at me, embarrassed, and shrugged. “Sorry about this, pal,” he said, pulling out the phone, “HELLO?!”
He got €2.
In the interests of honesty (which I may not always have had as a sales rep) at least some of my friendship with Cork’s Roma was founded on the high incidence of fellas who looked remarkably similar to guys who’d had their broadband cut for non-payment but who now had completely different names. Identification, even identity, could be multiple-choice.
I have no doubt Garda and HSE staff acted in what they believed to be the best interests of those two children but I suspect that when they became aware of the suggestion that a Roma family was involved in abduction, there would have been no benefit of the doubt applied. At the time, Alan Shatter said there was a degree of “damned if they do, damned if they don’t” but I would imagine that two plus two added up to eight straight away.
We think the Roma secretive, alien and apart, outsiders who live among us, damned because they do not integrate… but are we equally damned because we probably wouldn’t want them to integrate anyway?
Will any good come from the fact that prejudice, ignorance and hysteria caused two frightened children to be snatched from their families, not by the Roma of monstrous stereotype, but by well-meaning and misled agents of the Irish State?
“I am committed to ensuring that this results in a more dynamic and effective approach to Roma integration in Ireland,” said Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald. “We need a new culture of understanding of the distinct challenges and needs facing the Roma Community”.
Emily Logan said “The apology should be just the beginning of the process of building trust with the Roma community”. She’s absolutely right. So is Frances Fitzgerald.
But, as my friend asked me in the wake of this, is there any room in Irish society, or even in Irish minds, for Roma?
I hope so. We are a nation which knows trauma and abuse. I think the very best thing we could do to help ourselves would be to help others and to be the nation of generous welcomes we have for so long pretended to be. It’s past time we reached out, for our own good, to our new neighbours.
And if that seems hopelessly naive, well, just look how far prejudice, ignorance and hysteria have got us.
Donal O’Keeffe is a writer, artist and columnist for TheJournal.ie. He tweets as @Donal_OKeeffe
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Lets call a spade a spade the Roma do not have a good reputation anywhere in Europe.
Still not a reason to take away their kids.
What a rubbish comment John, the children were not taken from their parents because of “child abuse”, they were taken because they were ethnic looking enough and their parents were Roma.
Try at least a little to stick to to topic at hand rater that posting some unrelated racist buII$hite, you can have a general moan about Roma, blacks and immigrants and call for dog licences for Roma kids when your down the pub with your mate.
In the case of the Tallaght family, there were previous welfare concerns with the child, the guards were in their right to act ,as I said, the Roma are notorious for child neglect – forced begging, child marriages, no smoke without fire.
Previously Garda attention on this ‘victimized’ family…
“The father was convicted in relation to road traffic offences, mother was convicted of theft, they are known to the Gardaí and have a community Garda assigned to them”
Suppose that was due to ethnic profiling too? Stop been an apologist for child neglect
If the child is neglected why is she still with the family?
Theft and road traffic offences?? Well holy God, such a thing was never heard of in our sainted Isle before. Who’d a thunk that there might be people stealing things, and committing road traffic offences. God save all here.
You can bet your life the state will never question the welfare of any Roma child again, and rightly so, leave them to their own devices and including providing for themselves, we don’t owe them anything they’ve nothing of value to contribute to our society.
Because this is Ireland Ron, damned if you do and damned if you don’t. If the child was never taken and something went wrong can you imagine the years of Tribunals and promised legislation etc etc etc
Well, John, I can look out the window of my house and see the residences of two families who could sure benefit from a 24/7 Garda presence outside their doors (for the sake of the rest of us) – and believe me, they ain’t Roma, nor are they travellers.
@Sheik. I am more than aware we have home grown wasters so why are we importing more? If we had a sensible immigration policy we would only accept people who can add value to our society, not deteriorate it further
So my comment was deleted for suggesting people who come here to live and subsequently break the law should be deported, you know as is the case in most countries but then that would make too much sense, never in basket case Ireland.
@Rubber Head.
There was never a chance of “something going wrong”, the children had not been abducted. The authorities were never going to be damned for not taking these kids, only for taking them. It was a case of damned if you do, not damned at all if you don’t.
@John.
“You can bet your life the state will never question the welfare of any Roma child again..
This is your answer to why the child that you alledge is being neglected is still with her family.. it’s a nonsense answer.
@Ron. Here is the article referencing previous child welfare concerns.
http://www.thejournal.ie/roma-girl-tallaght-2-1225242-Dec2013/
So if Gardai had concerns there must have been solid ground, yet again your asking me why the child would remain and my answer is that Socail Services will be unlikely to intervene again especially when we have this nonsense of paying out compensation from action taking out of previous concerns.
“it’s a nonsense answer”
Your contribution has been nonsense, start looking at facts instead of shouting “Racism” “Discrimination” , Its the like of you who are apologists for the all rights but no responsibilities section in our society.
The article does not support your claim that the child is or was neglected, it make a reference to a child welfare matter regarding her older sisters pregnancy at the age of 18? and mentions other “concerns” but makes no mention of what they were.
You are making your own assumptions about what the concerns were, and your own assumptions are the only thing that says the child is or was neglected.
Your claim that social services are less likely to intervene with Roma children because they are afraid of a claim has no basis in fact, its just something you typed.
The evidence (the actual cases that these articles are about) would suggest that that Roma children are more likely to have the attention of the authorities even when they are not needed, and they are far more likely to be taken from their family for no reason.
I should just add before I go, that in spite of you’re delight that the family of this girl are not whiter than white (no pun intended), nothing that they have done justifies having their child taken and nothing that they have done justifies taking a child from a family who happen to be of the same ethnic group as them in Athlone.
@Sheik. Traffic Offences and stealing are completely alien to me and my extended family. The same would apply to my friends. No excuses to commit crime while a guest in this country. First offence and they should be sent packing ! Try letting your 18 year old drink beer in Dubai. The Family would be on the next flight and all jobs gone. Their country and their rules !
Ah there lovely honest, hard working members of our community. They make a massive effort to integrate into Irish society and they would steal a penny from you, nor I might add take a shilling from the social welfare!!!
None of this has anything to do with the fact that their children were taken from them unjustly. If you’ve an issue with our welfare state take it up with the powers that be – not the recipients
Erin, its worth looking at the backdrop to this – there were reports that week from Bulgaria of children being stolen by Gypsies, the police and social services in Bulgaria took the child or children into care while they got to the bottom of it. This being at a time of hightened awareness to child abuse globally and high profile missing children stories such as that of Madeline McCann, Natasha Kamputsh, Marioara Rostas, those girls/ladies in the USA and a variety of other horrific stories.
A suspicion was reported to the Gardai and they acted in what they saw as the best interests of the child/children – the parents could not provide proof that the children were theirs then what were the authorities to do?
Was there ethnic profiling – undoubtably. But the public must take responsibility for that profiling – it was a member of the public who reported the suspicion to the Gardai. Is it a general profiling and do we generally believe Gypsies steal children? – obviously not, however media conditioning eurpoe-wide played a very big part in the hysteria surrounding those few weeks.
I am still of the belief that it was better to ensure the security of children (no matter how mistaken) and upset parents rather than simply ignore what appeared to be a genuine report from the public.
A Roma article we can comment on!
Lockdown in 3,2,1
Well if you get people calling for them to be exterminated it makes sense to just close the comments rather than waste your time, money, and energy monitoring comments. I can’t imagine the journal owners feel its a productive use of their money to pay somebody to watch the comments so that a few racists and bigots can have their say.
Why not just to delete the offending comments rather then locking down the whole article,as regularly happens on any article involving Roma or the Halawas.The mods on virtually every other Media outlet are able to manage that much.
I guess your just not that important Scipio.
Intelligent answer.Thank you for adding to the debate.
How does giving the parents and more importantly their legal team lots of money make up for what happened to this child?
I didn’t think you’d understand anything more complicated when you didn’t understand my initial comment. If you read it again you will find it is the answer to the question that you asked.
Don’t flatter yourself.I didn’t even read your initial comment,I was replying to The Peasant.
That’s weak, very weak.
The relevant piece of the comment that you didn’t read but seem to be discussing anyway was…
“I can’t imagine the journal owners feel it’s a productive use of their money to pay somebody to watch the comments so that a few racists and bigots can have their say.”
Your contribution to this debate is what is weak.It consists soley of shrieks of,’but you a waycist’,'but you a waycist’.Empty unthinking rhetoric designed to shut down legitimate questions.
The topic of this thread ‘Comments have been shut down on articles relating to the Roma story over the last few days’…
I am accused of shrieking because I have mentioned that the racist content of the comments is a factor in this event! I am accused of trying to “shutdown debate”, because I used the word racist where racism is clearly a factor in the topic on hand!
Hmmmmm….
You can’t win on this one. It was something that a happened and The authorities did what they thought was right. However if they had been found to be not their children we’d be hailing the whole thing a huge success ! I heard someone say Enda Jenny said they deserve compo! They do not deserve compensation ! It’s utterly ridiculous to even think that. What about all these Irish people fighting for compensation for far worse committed against them. A child wasn’t abused or worse ! The state handled it the best way possible. Move on People !
The whereabouts of one of the children for the duration of her removal from her family remains unknown. Nobody knows what happened to her.
People act like this child was blackbagged, sent to Guantanamo and lived in fear of imminent execution.
She spent the night in state care, eating crisps and gets a six figure payout for the trouble.
How do you know where the child was? Child is only 2 years old and can’t say. Your not concerned at all that your child can be removed from you for no reason at all other than he looks different? And then the same people who remove the child cannot explain where the child was taken? Are you serious? Do you have children? If so I hope they look just like you.
If they get their compo will their dole and the rest of their benefits then have to be means tested?
So Sean
would you not feel entitled to compensation if one of your children was
taken from you by uniformed Garda
Taken into care
and you forced to take a DNA test to prove it’s your child to get it back?
Just because someone who doesn’t even know you suggested your kid is not yours!!!
I would be looking for more than just compensation. I would be looking for the bungling idiot who approved this abuse to loose their job.
John spot on. And are you not also curious as to the laws we have that allow such a thing to happen? Would you share my concern that it’s just a bit heavily weighted in favour of the state?
Do they not already get compensation weekly from the State ?
No I wouldn’t be looking for compo what’s the point – compo isn’t going stop the child having nightmares – proper support should be offered from the HSE ! If they don’t like the way we operate as a country ! Get your one way ticket out. They don’t contribute to our society only take!! So I stand by comment. No compo. Sorry for the child but I’m not letting my hard earned tax go to anyone for what the authorities thought was the right thing ! They got an apology and hopefully follow up care. Simple as – if I had a child I would be upset but looking for someone’s head on a block solves nothing !
People should be very concerned John, anyone who adopted a child in China, Russia or Africa could have their child kidnapped because they don’t look like their parents. This whole Child “Protection” Racket has gotten out of hand. Ireland took 3.7 TIMES more children into “Care” in 2011 than the UK on a per capita basis. Interestingly the number of convictions for child abuse or neglect hasn’t increased in decades even though the billion a year Child Abuse Industry has doubled in a decade.
Joe I must say I find this whole thing deeply disturbing. And I feel you have used the correct word there kidnapping. What else do we call it when children are removed from their families against the parents wishes for absolutely no reason other than they appear different? People seem to be focusing on the Roma aspect as there is animosity there but as another commenter pointed out we have one law for us all. So this can happen to anyone. There is also the secrecy of the court system, the gagging orders, the “balance of probabilities” not innocent until proven guilty to name but a few areas I have concerns about. People in Ireland are rightly concerned about child welfare so I just cannot understand why we have a very disturbing system shrouded in such secrecy. This incident is just the tip of the iceberg. I look forward to the day when a light can be shone into this area and the public can see what is really going on and decide how to proceed.
Eh Sean,
I don’t think you understand the concept of compensation. Compensation for a broken leg does not fix your leg it COMPENSATES you for its negative effects.
Just like compensation in this case is for the distress caused by separating a family based on the colour of their skin. That is the point.
How do you know that this family don’t contribute to our society??
are you suggesting that someone who YOU judge not to be contributing should never get compensation for any wrongs done to them by the state??
The authorities in the UK “thought it was the right thing” to jail Irish men for crimes they didn’t commit in the past. Do you believe Sean that those men should not have got compensation??
John what I find more disturbing is the willingness of the Irish to be victims of tyranny and not do anything about it. There are up to 800 S12′s invoked illegally in Ireland every year and the victims of this criminality by hysterical agents of the State and then the parents are gagged under threat of prison for speaking out. But isn’t it wonderful that “lessons will be learned” and nobody is responsible for causing emotional harm to two children? and nobody will be punished?
Most of the people commenting on this topic have never read S12 of the CCA but have very strong (racist) opinions. Wait till it happens to them and they are gagged. Most will also pay their Water Tax, House Tax, TV Tax and other taxes and just grumble about it for a while. They are distracted by other things and will wake up one day and say; “how did this happen?
Joe again I agree. So we have 800 incidents occurring per year involving illegal use of the S12? It’s almost unbelievable almost 3 per day. And this while episode came to light due to the racial aspect. And due to the same racial aspect Irish people are just not understanding the implications of the power being abused over them. Same goes with our host of new taxes introduced to pay for banksters debts.
It has nothing to do with nationality or minority. Every nation’s Gypsy population only serve to drag down the rest of the population. How many people here think negatively when they hear the word Romanian, but do you realise that Romanians are as ashamed of their gypsy population as we are of ours?
Of course the liberal media will run with this story and try and guilt us into acceptance of gypsy anti-culture
Well, firstly Romani is not the same as Romanian. Secondly I think attitudes such as your own drag our culture down. You’re disappointed that articles aren’t preaching hate when discussing how the Gardai racially profiled and took a child away from its parents for absolutely no reason. Stereotyping anyone is pretty horrendous tbh but you’d prefer to not consider this and rant about the liberal agenda instead.
Wow.
We have had plenty of articles on this story already. Why don’t other more important issues recieve half as much attention?
Answer = Liberal agenda
Yup, Your a victim Joe, Some people get their kids taken away because of their race but the real victim is the gut who has to (voluntarily) read about it on the internet.
*Guy.. although gut probably works too.
There’s a limit on the amount of times story can be discussed? It just became mainstream news again because of the report and the fact that they’re suing the state for legitimate reasons. Taking a child from its parents for no legitimate reason is pretty worthy of numerous articles.
There’s also a big issue that there’s individuals such as yourself who tend to view the garda action as perfectly acceptable. You don’t have to read the article if you don’t want to,are the liberals forcing you?
@Michael Rhetoric!
Ah,yes many people holding racist views about Roma must mean that it’s fine! Just like many people holding racist views about travellers,make it fine. Because a majority hold a view,does not make it right or okay.
Just give them the compo and get it over with we don’t need another million euro enquiry
Whatever you think of the Roma people they don’t deserve to have their children taken from them without just cause. It would be a national outrage if it were a “normal” settled family…
Hear hear Clare
Imagine a white, blonde haired woman wheeling an asian toddler. Do you think “she stole that child” or “she went through a rigorous adoption process in China or Vietnam where she handed over €10k to buy a baby”.
Either way, you’re not going to go running to the cops. Those Roma kids were taken because of racist attitudes towards them.
If she was unable to provide bona fide ID for the child and there had recently been a confirmed case of child abduction involving persons of a similar background then surely its not unreasonable to expect that she might come under suspicion?
In this case the Gardai acted correctly and efficiently.This piece comes across as though the author is wallowing in the self pity of the Roma.There was another ethnic group who have being demonised for even longer then the Roma,and had more members exterminated during WW2.But virtually every society they emigrate to they mange to integrate successfully.
Maybe there culture has something to do with this,rather then the racism and intolerance of the host community.
Clare, it happens to ”normal” settled families every day of the week. Unmarried ones.
The Gardai broke the law in both cases, try reading S12 of the CCA and explain to me what the danger to these children was. Also please explain why a birth cert, an official Irish document is not good enough? Both cases were kidnappings.
There was no “confirmed case”. The child proved to be the child of her Roma parents, but hey let’s just ignore that inconvenient little fact.
Avina Joe is correct one of the children had a birth cert produced by the parent. The S12 provision only allows the child to be removed from the parents custody in the case of imminent danger. There was clearly no imminent danger. I have to say I agree this was a kidnapping.
Just rechecked I cannot see any imminent danger that the children were in. So multiple kidnappings imo.
@Sheikh
I was actually referring to the case of ‘Maria’ in Greece which triggered this whole episode.
Rightly or wrongly the Roma couple who were raising her were subsequently charged with child abduction and she is now being raised by a children’s charity.
@John
In the Athlone case the presentation of a birth cert to the authorities was delayed.
In the Tallaght case a birth cert was provided but (through no fault of the parents) it didn’t match official records.
I’m not saying it was right to take the children into care so prematurely, just that there were some grounds for concern about the bona fides of the parents.
It’s not up to the accused to prove their innocence, try again.
Avina with respect “some grounds for concern”? They were forcibly removed from their parents when they were not in danger and one even had an official birth cert. They were kidnapped illegally. The state has to obey the law too no? The state then performed tests. One child’s whereabouts during that time can’t even be confirmed to this day! Joe hits the nail on the head far better than me “the accused don’t have to prove their innocence”.
I’m not sure if that comment was directed at me Joe, but presuming it was you’re absolutely right that in a criminal case the onus isn’t on a suspect to prove their own innocence, however in a child welfare case where (rightly or wrongly – wrongly in this case) the child is perceived to be at risk, the onus is on the authorities to remove the child from that situation pending further investigations.
Of course as we now know big mistakes were made in both these cases but to refer to it as ‘kidnapping’ the children is somewhat hysterical.
If the authorities had grounds for suspicion but failed to act, and hypothetically the ‘parents’ subsequently absconded with a child who later turned out to have been abducted, the authorities would have been slated.
Avina the gardai acted here under criminal law S12, and they broke the law as they had no right to take the children. Taking children forcibly in contravention of the law is kidnapping. Just because the state does it doesn’t make the term hysterical. You are correct about child welfare cases burden of proof. Do you have any concerns that in such cases you are guilty until proven innocent, hearsay evidence is permitted, you have no right to hear the evidence against you or know your accuser, hearsay evidence is permissible, courts are conducted in secret and you are precluded from speaking publicly about it? Is it really sufficient to say its in the “child’s best interest”? What is the child’s best interest if would love if someone could tell me. To me it sounds like an inquisition not a justice system. Joe quite clearly knows more than me on this and I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong on my facts.
My understanding of this whole affair is that it was based on legitimate concerns by those with the authority to act upon those concerns….and they did just that.
concerns back up by ignorance though…dangerous combination
Educated opinions
I think they did the right thing here. They only took the children away after failure to prove the children were theirs. Of course the incident in Greece spurred this on. Would you not be giving out 10 times more if they ignored the situation and later it was found that they had snatched these kids??? I agree that I can’t fully understand the authors point. He admits, and it appears fondly, that these people do beg, steal and deceive. I don’t care if they’re roma, travellers, settled, foreign or Irish, I don’t want to integrate with people who do that.
It’s an interesting article. But I feel the real issue here is not the racial profiling of the Roma, but the actions of the state. There are a lot if questions here that remain unanswered:
1. Why didn’t the gardai arrest the parents for suspicion of child abduction?
2. Given the importance of child safety, why is it that one of the childrens whereabouts remain unknown when she was taken from her family?
3. Why did the Garda not believe the one of the children was the child of the parents when they actually produced a birth cert?
4. Why was section 12 invoked when the children were not in imminent danger?
5. Why did a Garda have to receive legal advice from a social worker who advised the execution of the S12 removal order?
6. If the child was not legally removed from the parents why is there not a criminal case for kidnapping?
7. If nothing illegal happened why is the state apologising to the Roma family?
Rhetoric!
It’s not rhetoric. We don’t have any Roma-specific laws. If the Gardai can do this to a Roma family, they can also do it to yours.
Catherine agreed. On the subject of social workers acting outside their area in one of the cases here the Sw gave the legal advice to the Garda re S12! Unbelievable. And yes as you outline power and secrecy would attract psychotic types. So it makes perfect sense.
Yet again the comments section on the Journal proves my faith in humanity is placed.
These people had their children taken from them because of their ethnic origin and that alone. That’s racism folks. State sponsored racism. Try and justify it all you want but by justifying it, you’re condoning racism whether or not you admit that to yourself.
*misplaced….obviously.
Bang on Padraig. And to the racists I say, I hope your kids look just like you.
Padraig….so you base your faith on free software from the internet?….strange
I’ve read this article twice now and still can’t decide what the author is trying to say exactly. On one hand we appear to be told that the incidents involving the two children displayed ethnic profiling and shouldn’t have happened. On the other hand the author goes on to explain and qualify why ethnic profiling occurred with the suggestion that due to Roma past performance they’ve earned this reputation for themselves. So, what’s the message in this article ? I can’t see a clear one. Oh and by the way, the phrase “ethnic profiling” is nothing more than a way to refer to racism without actually using the word racism. I believe “terminological inexactitude” is the term used when someone refers to something without actually mentioning it. This “ethnic profiling” lark is racism in progress.
The message I got from it is this. This state has huge power over us all to even take our children from us. They abuse it regularly. In this case they were caught. We are hearing about it due to the race element. The race factor is a red herring.
The Roma have made a significant contribution to this Celtic Republic of ours,adding to the cultural diversity of what was up until recently a hideously mono-ethnic society.The colour and vibrancy of the Roma people can be seen in real terms in any of our major cities across the country.
These people bring with them a culture of honesty,hospitality and a work ethic,Irish people can only dream off.To question the diversity that the Romani to our nation,is to engage in racism and intolerance of the most hideous kind.Together with our Romani partners we,can only increase the prosperity of this great nation of ours.
Scipio you gotta be a troll with that comment.
its perfectly rational to use racial or other profiling in one’s private life, which normally just means using the odds to avoid trouble. When the state do it its Police with batons and reducing the standard of evidence which would normally be used. This is dangerous for everyone and not compatible with a good justice system
Hard to believe the delusional comments on this article. Anyone who has ever read S12 of the CCA knows that this was a kidnapping pure and simple. The law wasn’t followed and Gardai did not establish the danger that these children were in. There is also no mention of whether an ECO was applied for or granted or if the ECO was granted Ex Parte.
There are close to 800 such kidnappings every year in Ireland but you rarely hear about them because the parents didn’t have the advantage of crying racism.
If there was a hearing in one case, the judge would have had to accept the birth cert and the judge would have demanded proof that the threshold to intervention had been met, the Gardai had nothing more than hysteria and racial profiling to support their case.
Most people don’t know that Gardai in Ireland illegally put surveillance on pregnant women 24/7 sometimes for weeks until the birth, I know of 3 such cases. No court order is obtained in these cases and the parents are not accused of any crime. Isn’t it strange that Gardai don’t have the resources to follow around Larry Murphy and other predators but will follow around heavily pregnant women even though they have committed no crime and Gardai cant stop them leaving the country?
Isn’t it also very strange social workers abuse S12 despite having no power to do so? I know of cases where social workers kidnapped children by conning Gardai into believing that they had a court order where none existed and then lied to a judge claiming the children were in such danger that Gardai had to remove them. In these cases judges don’t even ask the Gardai to testify. I have seen social workers trying to invoke S12 in hospitals to newborns to prevent the baby bonding with their mothers, a Human Rights abuse of the baby. S12 cannot be used in hospitals as it could never be proven that any danger to a newborn exists when surrounded by doctors and nurses.
I must congratulate the OCO for her epiphany of a report that took 9 months, she managed to distract the Irish public into turning the case into a story of racism rather the real story of how hundreds of children are kidnapped by the CFA every year.
Should they get compensation? Absolutely! and they should take my advice and flee the country immediately as no child is safe from the hysteria of the Child Abuse Industry, a billion a year and growing industry. It’s an industry that makes it living from conducting witch hunts, keeping the children for months or years at horrendous cost to the taxpayer, up to €5,000/week/child. And then you have 100 NGO’s posing as Children’s “Charities” who bilk the taxpayer, one in particular for €16 million a year by selling “services”. And the children are dumped out on the street at age 18, if you don’t believe me ask Focus Ireland who highlighted the issue 10 years ago with a report entitled; “On Their Own”.
Does the system really “protect” children? a child is 6 TIMES more likely to die in “Care”, 3 TIMES more likely to be sexually abuse and 10 TIMES the risk of suicide. 260 died in a decade and 500 went “missing”, well not missing as such, the HSE, DCYA and Gardai didn’t feel it necessary to inform the public that many were found trafficked into prostitution, but WikiLeaks thought it newsworthy. Gardai could have used S12 anytime in the Roscommon House of Horrors in the 11 YEARS that the HSE were involved but the kids, and not the HSE, Children’s “Charity” or a single of the 4,000 social workers acted for these children, they saved themselves.
While you are all distracted by the racist angle, a child died in “Care” last week, another will die next week.
Thanks for some rational facts Joe. Absolutely shocking stuff. I hope Irish peoples widely expressed concern for children can be directed towards the current abuses. We live in hope.
John, years ago it was ok to turn a blind eye when the clergy abused children, shuffled paedophile priests around and then covered it up. Children said for years they were abused but nobody paid attention. When Ryan Report came out, everyone denied knowledge.
The Irish don’t give a tinkers damn (no pun intended) about children or their ‘Rights”, if they had they would have become informed and voted No in the corrupt Children’s Referendum. Instead they would have been calling out for Ryan Report Two for the abuses by the State that are CURRENTLY happening.
It hasn’t dawned on most people except yourself and a few others, that the State has the power to take any child from anywhere on nothing more than suspicion and then as you pointed out, you are guilty until proven innocent and it might take years to prove your innocence. Anyone who has ever read the Human Rights Act would know that these cases were Human Rights Abuses of the children involved, ie; No Punishment Without Crime and Right to a Family Life. Hardly a word here of how this affected the children. The girl now dyes her hair for fear of being taken again.
One story you never read about in the Irish Media was the case of where the HSE went to the wrong house and took the wrong child into “Care”. The mistake was discovered months later when a doctor in court looked at a photograph and exclaimed “this isn’t the child I examined”. The parents were gagged in that case.
It is as you say the tip of the iceberg and the only way these stories will come out years from now when somebody decides to hold Ryan Report Two. And then they will be crying and saying why didn’t we see this going on?
Joe Its so awful that this is occurring all over again. I remember the rumours growing up about the “industrial schools”. I remember it was an open secret that some priests and brothers “weren’t right”. The truth came out finally. Today we are hearing actual stories of horror just like the one above and that one pales in significance compared to the poor families in the article. It’s very frustrating to know such horrors are occurring right now and there is an entire system designed to cover it up. The truth of course always comes out in the end but the tragedy is the interim time lost. I fear we are on the downward slope here unless the Supreme Court can make the right call and overturn the illegal result of the childrens referendum.
They are already preparing to run the corrupt Children’s Referendum again, and again and as many times as it takes to take away the rights of parents. Doesn’t even matter what party are in power, your children are the property of the State.
Disappointing yet unsurprising. I actually believe this is an international conspiracy. I guess I’m a “conspiracy theorist”.
I can almost smell the sarcasm coming through the phone Scipio……
Hey.
Where are my comments gone?
have your say