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POSTNATAL DEPRESSION… Should it discourage you from ‘going again’?
The politically correct, medical and popular view would be ‘No, absolutely not’. But as someone who has encountered both post and peri-natal depression, I am not sure I subscribe to that view, much as I might like to.
As with many angles in relation to depression and its treatment, the decision as to whether or not to have another child after suffering peri or post natal depression involves a balancing act. Similarly to the question I wrote about several weeks ago as to whether antidepressants are ultimately a ‘friend’ or a ‘foe’, the answer to the above question is not a simple ‘Yes’ or ‘No’, but lies somewhere in between. But the general societal view which pervades that depression should not be in any way life-limiting is just not realistic. Or helpful. And it conveniently allows the system to do nothing to help those who have suffered from it in the past to avoid a recurrence.
To gloss over an episode of depression and how it will inevitably affect the rest of your life is to belittle its impact upon the individual in the first place. To take the view that your life should not change and that you are fundamentally the same as the person next to you who hasn’t faced down such struggles is naive, and even, irresponsible to those who depend upon you. And as I watch my son approach his second birthday and my daughter ask for a sister, I once again encounter the balancing act that is life after depression. And I face the age old question. Could I cope?
I know women who have chosen not to have another child simply because of their history. And that, to me, is the most selfless act of all that a mother can take for the sake of her children. To go against her instinct and her own desire to have another child for the sake of those she already has.
I refused to commence medication whilst pregnant. I considered it and listened to the reassuring words of the psychiatrist. But I decided to take things one day at a time and eventually limped over the line at 39 and a half weeks. Fear and guilt stopped me. An unequivocal love for my unborn child and the inevitable uncertainty around how any such decision on my part, however justified, could potentially impact him into the future.
Undoubtedly there are those for whom the physical symptoms of depression during pregnancy are so severe that whatever impact anti-depressants could potentially have on baby pales into insignificance compared to the inevitable impact of the mother’s insomnia, panic, loss of appetite, embattled immune system, on her unborn child. I was pretty sure I didn’t reach that category, and just as the scales fell in the other direction once my son was born and I immediately went on medication, I decided that during the pregnancy, if I could bear it, my son would probably be better off without.
But I am not sure that I could do it all again. Or that it is fair to my two beautiful children to take the risk. And to blindly assume that I can have and do all the things others can is selfish and unrealistic. I have a medical ‘history’ like it or not. An irreversible one which says that my mind and childbearing do not like each other. Much as my heart may be bursting with love for them. And that to me is not stigma. Is not branding. Is not discrimination. It is reality. It is forward planning. It is being a responsible parent to the children I already have. But it is also unspeakably sad.
Looking back I wish I had been screened for PND during my first pregnancy. Three months after my daughter was born I found myself reading the risk factors and symptoms as if I were looking in a mirror. Have you suffered a recent bereavement? Tick. Have you had financial difficulties? Tick. Have you a history of anxiety/depression? Although I may not have fully recognised it at the time, tick, tick, tick.
No such screening exists. Probably because the powers that be feel it might turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Or because it is deemed somehow insensitive or inappropriate to expectant mothers to highlight those at risk. Or perhaps it is simply because nobody could be bothered. Who knows? Whatever the reasoning, noble or not, no preventative measures are taken and no early intervention exists.
Similarly on my second pregnancy even after my difficulties first time round no such screening existed. I am confident and self aware enough to seek help early once I saw the signs and so I got the support I needed. But I shouldn’t have needed to go looking. And many others simply don’t.
So if we are serious about removing the stigma around depression and breaking down barriers, the medical approach to it, particularly during pregnancy, needs to become like any other illness. Had I a history of high blood pressure, anaemia, cancer, diabetes, these would all have been captured, recognised, monitored and managed throughout my pregnancies. But mental health weaknesses are not. Despite the fact that indications are that one in seven mothers will suffer peri or post natal depression.
So can we please start to screen pre-and post delivery? And have a transparent, open, clinical discussion about its likelihood, its impact, and its treatment that is more scientific than the Public Health Nurse asking the age old loaded question around ‘How mummy is feeling?’
Can we spend less time in our Ante-Natal Courses discussing the ‘Stages of Labour’ and more time on the ‘Stages of Survival’ after the event? For the last time I checked the former takes care of itself, whilst the latter routinely does not.
Can we consider having an informed and honest debate around medication and pregnancy? Roughly 10% of the population will take anti-depressant medication at some point in their lives. Which means that literally tens of thousands of women out there must find themselves in a similar predicament to my own. Yet I have never seen or heard it openly discussed. Ever.
I now have a bond with my children as strong, if not stronger, than most. Probably because we went through so much together. My daughter after she was born. My son, for some unknown reason, before. But do I want to risk that bond for the sake of another child? No, not for now at least.
But that question has never been discussed with me by any medic. Never has it been called out, highlighted as a risk for me and my family that needs to be watched and managed. Never has any additional support been offered or suggested other than whatever I have been brazen enough to seek out and fund myself.
Because, despite all the rhetoric, depression is not treated just like any other illness. And perhaps as with any other illness within our struggling health system, you are very much on your own.
The author still sits in the Mental Health Closet. Who knows, perhaps she’ll be brave enough to come out soon. But for now at least, for the sake of her and her children, she prefers to remain anonymous.
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Sickening that this abuse is taking place here in Ireland, of it was happening our own in the states we’d be up in arms about it. The fishing communities are all wuite small so certain people must know this is going on and turning a blind eye. If caught they should be prosecuted and made repay any grants recieved.
I know one of people accused of trafficking in the full guardian article.Interesting to see how this pans out.
Just keep the grants coming minister Coveney and you’ll get our votes.
I didn’t see anyone putting a gun to the migrants heads. If it is so hard here then go back to where they came from.
Nobody said anyone put a gun to anyone’s head,that’s quiet a stupid comment you made there
It’s from The Guardian (the left’s version of The Daily Mail) so forgive me if I take their claims with a grain of salt until they’re substantiated. I’m surprised they haven’t called for the criminalisation of fishing!
They took our language first, now they want our fish
For all the “typical Oireland” brigade.
The Guardian are covering up something.
For all their feigned outrage. There is worse in the UK. British (media) being hypocrites once again. This is in the midst of them calling for a boycott…
Bizarre the way some people don’t ever question that paper.
From the guardian comments :
“Ah…I see now. A spokesperson for the guardian has just been speaking on Irish tv. Apparently their investigation uncovered abuse in England, Scotland and Ireland, but for legal reasons they could not publish their findings on England or Scotland.
I was wondering, bit strange that an English newspaper would report on another EU state like this. This has nothing uniquely to do with Ireland.”
They never mentioned this in their article, and only used this as a back up plan. Nothing about the Brits not controlling their borders letting in slaves to Ireland… Always blaming someone else.
(Hope these fishermen getting caught though).
Good on you Beckett. There should definitely be an investigation into the industry and any perpetrators caught and punished but my point was the Guardian isn’t the bastion of modern day journalism it’s made out to be. Before we bring out the pitchforks we should at least wait to see if there’s any truth behind the claims and if so how big a problem is it really.
Oh the irony of your insult
T Beckett is back- inane post ..
It had been reported that that the Guardian cannot report on the UK situation for legal reasons …
Excellent investigative journalism
Someone took the bait in this debate!!
John…your comment is disgusting. Exploitation is occurring in Ireland in lots of employment sectors and it is happening to Irish people as well ie jobbridge, zero hours contracts. People like you represent the ugly side of human behaviour. Exploitation can happen to anyone regardless of education, nationality etc. There are lots of “professionals” out there who are EXPECTED to work xtra hours for no pay every week. Cop on!
This is the globalisation policy of mass-immigration. Strict border control making sure the hard won resources of this country are for the hard pressed people of this country. Irish workers are losing out to this mass-immigration business-class cheap labour scam.
“Best small country in the world to do business” don’t ya know…
What’s that got to do with this?
Nothing, it was just the first stock-phrase to hand
What do you think, Mark? Pretty effin self evident, I would have thought. The farmers, the meat processors and the growers have all been at this. It is widely known about, but ‘inconvenient ‘ to remedy. Ms Mary Harney was a great facilitator of these practices.
“Burn the bondholders”
F**k you deputy Stagg
Rashers..we did exploit the “kebabs” a few years ago..though it was at arms length.
i think he means that the government are willing to turn a blind eye and even facilitate people who want to make money at the expense of others. plenty of examples of t happening across different sectors in Ireland. Take for instance the apple paying only 2% tax rate when they should be paying 12.5%. We the public have to cover the difference, for this trillion dollar company.
Relax everyone…Simon Coveney is “across” this horrendous abuse…he’s going to demand a full report before setting up a focus group who will determine if an investigation is warranted….if he’s successful in the general election he may or may not pursue it..like,you don’t want to be doing your successors job,do you?
One of the people mentioned in the Guardian article works off the pier in Crosshaven. That pier was named after Simon Coveneys father, Hugh.
Simon was married in the yacht club in Crosshaven and the town is a major vote getter for him.
Niall..I hadn’t read the Guardian article but the more I think about it the more feasible I think it could be..particularly with vessels that use many ports,language barriers,threats to blacklist,threats of dismissal ,withholding of wages,control of communications etc.
“That pier was named after Simon Coveneys father, Hugh.
Simon was married in the yacht club in Crosshaven and the town is a major vote getter for him.”
LOL LOL and ?
Jail the traffickers and deport the illegals.
Deal with the Irish employers who have grossly exploited these vulnerable individuals.
Jail and Deport this idiot Cheney ASAP. Idiot.
You leftists are all the same, Carmo. Difference in opinion? Off to the Gulag with you.
“You leftists are all the same”
Stop reading after that :)
Saw, heard some at Howth one day speaking Russ. lang.Wondered why Irish not employed by owners.
Heavy fines on owners would solve this problem.
Deport the illegals with financial compensation. Fine and jail the illegal employers. Provide employment for those who are legally entitled to it.
As always this is really simple stuff.
Hang on..the migrants were here illegally. They came here ILLEGALLY. That means they are breaking the law. It is the migrants that need to be jailed, then deported.
If you or I break the law, we go to jail. I’m sick to the teeth of people simply disregarding the law when it comes to immigration. And yes, any illegal Irish migrants anywhere in the world needs to be jailed and deported too.
Clown.
You are a clown Carmo , the biggest problem with trafficking are the thousands who traffic themselves and then claim Asylum , 5 mins on any street corner throughout the country will illustrate how successful they are , I never thought the day would come when some of our towns would resemble the worst of Britain
Why are you so sick of it? How is it impacting upon you?
Well one the world “trafficed” is mentioned, all bets are off….the suggestion is that they were tied up in the “back of a truck in “Africa” and let out in the west of Ireland. That said it’s a shame to think our fishermen would treat ANYONE in that fashion!!
Totally agree Cal the bleeding hearts would make you sick. The right and proper thing to do is charge the traffickers and deport all illegal aliens.
Wrath…The right and proper thing to do is charge the traffickers and deport all illegal aliens AND fine the boat owners….
Jail to boat owners maybe
I’m sure nothing like this happens in UK waters!!!!11
While not good, slightly hypocritical for them not to investigate what’s on there door step
Did you even read it?
I am sure all of them cockle pickers they employ in the UK are all legal.
If you bothered to read the Guardian’s article you might have spotted that they also highlight similar issues in the Scottish fishing industry.
They also unearthed a lot of evidence showing that these victims are being trafficked into the Republic via Belfast and passed it on to the British home office. Either way, it’s a ridiculous comment.
‘How dare you investigate our illegal slave trade! Concentrate on your own!’ Mind boggling logic.
800 years doe Conor
Fresh fish in Irish supermarkets is the most expensive anywhere.!
Somebody is making a killing..
Bit slow off the mark with this one Journal, read about it this morning. Bad reflection on the country.
“In one such case, a worker describes being employed on a €1,000-a-month contract that is for “unlimited hours” with no holidays or days off.
His pay is said to be one-quarter of what was paid to other crewmen from the local Cork area or elsewhere in the EU.”
A general workers making a thousand a week?I doubt it
Also how are these workers getting paid? Do they pay income tax and if it’s under the table how does the employer manage to explain 15k disappearing from the books(or never hitting the books)
Oh, so it must all be lies so, dmn. My father was a trawler fisherman for years, as well as a general merchant seaman. This isn’t a job in a warehouse, there are particular pay structures which SHOULD reflect the arduous nature and the danger of the job. Don’t pontificate on things you know nothing about.
I’m not an expert but conditions and workloads on board ships/trawlers at sea are tough..container ships of 200k tons can be 2-3 weeks between ports and the working shift can be 14-16 hours.Google the recent case of the EL FARO…a 40 year old rustbucket,4 weeks ago went to the bottom with all hands..now the owner is refusing to pay compensation to the crews family’s.
48k for that type of work seems like a decent wage well above the industrial average(not to say it’s not hard work just like labouring on a building site).
I’m more interested in who is buying all this fish of the books giving employers the cash to pay the workers? Undeclared fish. undeclared cash,undeclared workers and undeclared tax . The system being worked from all angles.
The norm used to be a deckhand would be paid a share. if you were young/inexperienced you’d only get a half share, skipper got 2 shares, boat got it’s allocation, but if you caught fu*ck all you were paid fu*ck all. If you were catching plenty you were in the money
Tom..you seem to know what you are talking about…I’m mostly flailing in the dark..
Junior merchant navy officers would struggle to make €4000 a month.
Legally, they can work up to 14 hours a day, so long as they get 77 hours of rest per week.
It’s in our blood.
The many Haitians and West Indians who trace their ancestry back to Africans transported on Irish-owned slave ships are living proof that the Irish have not always been the victims of history.
And it was the Irish slaving clans of Nantes in France, descendants of the Wild Geese, who effectively ran the trade in humans for the French nobility.
Ship loads of Irish who departed during the famine years were profiteered from by Irish cute hoors.
Pull off many a KKK mask and you’ll find an Irish American.
Still, we don’t like to admit these truths. It affects the sense of national sense of ‘poor me, downtrodden by the foreign oppressors’. When given half a chance, we’ll gladly oppress or sell out our countrymen if there is an opportunity to make a few shillings.
What was it that the old ex Navvy types used to say about Irish gangers on the building sites in Britain during the 50′s and 60′s?
You are correct, Joachin, they were notorious.
OneTrueVoice, Seemingly it’s in everyone’s blood…even…African blood! Slave trading and slave owning was generally a class issue the world over. You make it sound like a national issue! The Irish were slaves and slave owners and traders… the Africans were slaves, slave owners and traders. To suggest that overwhelmingly people in this country were not downtrodden by foreign oppressors over centuries – is – frankly, disgusting. I find your comment – crass.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/18/africans-apologise-slave-trade
http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm
Plenty more information available if you care to look.
Sorry Onetruevoice,
The Brits were the slave masters.
They shipped the Irish slaves to the Carribean.
The US slave owners all have British names.
The Kkk were Anti-Catholic anglo-saxon supremacists.
Facts are stubborn things. Hard luck.
Thanks for making my point so well bingo.
OneTrueVoice, You clearly don’t know sarcasm when you see it! No I didn’t. Everybody knows that ‘It’s in our blood’ refers to a trait that is naturally inherited (a talent) or a trait that is at the least culturally significant to a group of people. I think I have clearly shown that even amongst the highest slave victim population (Africans) there were slave owners and traders – hence it is not in our blood!! It was a universal class problem and the majority of Irish people would have had to be involved for it to be ‘in our blood’….but you continue with the bizarre and ignorant rants!
Classic ‘everyone else was at it’ whataboutery Bingo.
Involvement in slavery can never be excused, nor should it be forgotten; regardless of whether the British or Africans were guilty too.
I didn’t excuse it…I just prefer a full view of history…do you want me to feel ashamed because a miniscule number of wealthy Irish (mostly Anglo-Irish) people were involved in the slave trade!? Are you looking for white guilt? You won’t get it! You are grossly attaching the slave trade to the Irish people as a nation….and this is a grossly falicious and historically ignorant. You are using this miniscule number of Irish slavers as THE justification to discount all of the suffering that the Irish people have endured over centuries. They are separate issues. The precise point I am making is, that everyone was involved in it…(in a universal sense – including Africans)…but that not everyone was involved in it in Irish society, or African society…there was a class dimension to the slave trade. The picture of the people in your avatar.. https://www.flickr.com/photos/okinawa-soba/4439867133 …do you think were they slavers!? Was it in their blood?
bingo your comment HAS nothing to do with the article ..
Dingle Holiday, “modern slavery” (it’s in the title) links to historical slavery. I did not begin the conversation on slavery…but I think I have the right to reply to any comment on any subject. Also….your comment has NOTHING to do with the article..
Current news dude NOT history ….
OneTrueVoice, I’m not sure what argument you are trying to win/make. I have already stated that Irish people were in very small number involved in slavery, and clearly there have been, or there are, Irish travellers involved in slavery/servitude. You seem to wash over the facts…and present a few incidents and a few people as being somehow evidence of an endemic problem of slavery in both the past and present in Irish culture. I abhor slavery and indentured servitude in all it’s forms no matter who does it. More on modern day slavery…”[In 2014] The Global Slavery Index ranked 167 countries in all, with Iceland, Ireland and Luxembourg at 167, 166 and 165 respectively, emerging as the countries with the least prevalence of modern slavery. Africa’s best performers were Madagascar (137), Kenya (136) and South Africa (126)……The latest Global Slavery Index released by the anti-slavery organisation, Walk Free Foundation, contained a worrying report card for Africa: of the 50 countries with the highest prevalence of modern slavery in the world, there are 31 in Africa. “http://thisisafrica.me/slavery-still-alive-africa/ If you want to resolve modern day slavery, you are really looking in the wrong place.
This widespread exploitation must be stopped immediately, thats the bottom line here.
Not sure if it’s widespread.
“The group says they are currently investigating two cases of potential human trafficking and 15 cases of exploitation in the industry.”
That doesn’t strike me as a major problem for an entire industry.
Tip of the iceberg Niall.
Niall..it’s thought provoking..I get the impression that all maritime seafaring type jobs are poorly paid,Ferries,intercontinental shipping etc make huge use of Philippines,Poles for deckhand positions while the officers are usually from 1st world countries…
Rumours are already spreading about the town like wildfire. My phone is buzzing with text messages from locals gossiping. The fishing community in Crosshaven is very small and the Guardian article singled it out. Coveney will be all over it as he spends considerable political capital down there and gets investment for the place too.
Well then you know little about it, Niall, apart from living near a fishing port. Thirty years ago my dad was complaining about the lines who were undercutting mariners with Filipino and Korean cheap labour. Forty odd years ago, HE was the cheap labour. Now it appears they won’t even pay the poor hoors slave wages.
In case you’re wondering, no I never once thought of following him into a life at sea. I was far too soft, and fond of my comforts! :-D
“Rumours are already spreading about the town like wildfire. My phone is buzzing with text messages from locals gossiping”
LOL LOL hyperbole
really funny
Unfortunately seafarers are being cut out of jobs deep sea, most officers are eastern block or Filipino.
We don’t need more visas for seafarers to come into Europe, we need less. There are hundreds of officers and Able Seamen being made redundant and replaced with cheaper crews. We should be looking after our own.
irish investigative journalism is non existant.
did you ever read more boring newspapers than the indo and times.
and they knew it all afterwards but were prevented from and blah de blah
This is typical of the nonsense that goes on, Irish women working in the mushroom industry as pickers were exploited for years and it was never highlighted until immigrant workers highlighted the criminal way they were treated that the government suddenly announced that the situation had to be regularised. It’s ok to treat Irish citizens disgracefully but don’t do it to others!!
Caoimhghin Ó Briain, Good point. Really, unless they bothered their arses (and it seems they didn’t) to actually speak with young local or Irish men working in this industry, to see what they are being paid, and what their working hours/conditions are like, – then the report is really worth nothing.
Always was /is the case fishing that you are paid a share (of the profits)
Running costs of the boat and the parcel paid 1st, then remainder divided in to shares, Skipper 2 shares, experienced men a share, young lads/inexperienced a half share
If the boat ain’t making, you ain’t making
Incredible to hear the union who had a slush fund for themselves and politicians lecturing on abuse. Our journalists dropped the story behind the slush fund very quickly and are themselves not interested in doing the work the Guardian does. It takes a good British paper to show us how to do our jobs.
I watched a documentary about the shrimp business in Thailand most if not all the boats are slave ships. Some of them get beaten up killed and dumped overboard and can only leave went they pay their ‘fare’ to get to Thailand. Some are on boats for years. I haven’t bought shrimp since watching it. Make ye sick what people do to other people.
Did anybody notice the disparity in testimonies given by the two gentlemen from the Philippines, one had 14 hours sleep a day with 3 meals one of which was a “hotel” type dinner and had no issues with the working hours, the other had no sleep, food or rest. One of them is lying, would it be possible that there was a pre existing condition that prevented the ill gentleman from working and that the Irish hospital system would benefit him medically? I’m just guessing like everyone else.
Yes, well you might guess that the happy fourteen hours a day sleeper might be the liar, you dope. Four hours on and four hours off. That’s the watch system for more than a century. Even a captain couldn’t get fourteen hours.
Whats 4 multiplied by 4,,,, if what you say is correct the 14 hours of sleep a day makes perfect sense. And you call me a dope,,,
Jim fishing is a funny game, if you are shooting the nets and not catching, then there is very little work (and very little pay. If you are catching plenty you could go 36hrs without sleep, specially if you are fishing prawns and catching very small prawns. One trip you could be getting all sleep you could possibly want, next trip little or none
That begs the question:
Why the f**k is fish so expensive?
Very fishy!!!!
if these were women who were being trafcked then you could be damn sure something would be done about it….men the disposable sex… :(
Caoimhghin Ó Briain, Good point. Really, unless they bothered their arses (and it seems they didn’t) to actually speak with young local or Irish men working in this industry, to see what they are being paid, and what their working hours/conditions are like, – then the report is really worth nothing.
Alangb, There is generally a greater emphasis on women who are trafficked for sex. I think you can probably see a difference between people being forced into sex-slavery and people being trafficked into jobs (poorly paid and with poor conditions…but jobs none the less).
Crap conditions,long hours,tough work and cheap labour in the fishing industry all over the world.
This article and video footage is as far from the truth as could be. And why is it Ireland and the south west that is being targated all the UK fishing boats northern irish Spanish French ect have migrant workers as do the merchant ships these indivuals must have been paid off to paint a dull picture like this ..all the Irish crewmen have to do the same hours of work and live on board and we just get on with it and be thankfull to have a job to pay our bills we all have family’s. .their will always be unhappy indivuals in every country irish included a lot of Irish people go down the mines in Australia for 5and 6weeks at a time don’t see any documentaries of them on here winging and wining about poor conditions and everything else.. give it a rest it would be more in the our government’s line to acknowledge the hardships irish trawler men are under with many years and be like all the other European countries in EU and legalise the philipino s why can Ireland not do this when all other countries governments do it for their fishermen?
Aren’t they still earning way more money than they would from where they came from.They should be happy with a grand a month .Not forgetting free lodgings too.
ha ha not funny
@ Jim O’ Connelly,
Here on planet Earth we have 24hr days, shifts of 4hrs on and 4hrs off equals 12hrs for each per day. I’m going to have to agree with Rasher on this one.
Consider the source…. a left wing rag
Read the full article earlier. Seems to be a pretty shady business operated by recruiters in the countries of origin. They are the ones arranging the transport visas through airports in the UK. That’s not to say certain Irish fishermen are not to blame. Although the article does mention that this is only certain fishermen taking them on.
Not one of our stupid potato talking heads including the moron with responsibility for fisheries spotted it … it takes a U.K. newspaper. Says a lot, doesn’t it?
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