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Gardaí between pro-choice and pro-life demonstrators outside Leinster House on the night of 10 July 2013 as TDs debated abortion until 5am. Laura Hutton/Photocall Ireland

'I saw fear in TDs’ eyes': An oral history of how Ireland legislated for X

One year on, TDs and Senators reflect on what it was like to be part of one of the most contentious political debates in decades.

IN THE LATE morning of Tuesday, 30 July 2013 President Michael D Higgins signed the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill into law.

Though the actual implementation of the legislation remains ongoing Higgins’s signature brought to an end a tumultuous six months in Irish politics. In line with the landmark Supreme Court ruling in the X Case 21 years before, a year ago TDs and Senators legislated for abortion in circumstances where there is a threat to the life of a woman.

It followed a contentious and fraught period that put parliamentarians front and centre of a debate that has divided Irish society for decades.

In recent weeks, TheJournal.ie has spoken to a number of parliamentarians to look back at the events of a year ago. The following is an account, in their own words, of how the Oireachtas legislated for the X Case.

Estimated reading time: 35 minutes (Note: Interviewees’ titles refer to their positions at the time)

The Savita case: “It galvanised an awful lot of young women onto the streets”

On the 14th November 2012, the Irish Times reported on the case of Savita Halappanavar, an Indian woman who had died on 28 October having reportedly been denied an abortion at Galway University Hospital. The facts of the case would not emerge for some time but the headline of the story – Woman ‘denied a termination’ dies in hospital’ - sparked nationwide outrage, protests and a vigil outside Leinster House as TDs debated it inside. 

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin, Labour TD: “The abortion issue was always there in the background. I suppose the Savita Halappanavar case brought it to the public’s mind but it was something we had been campaigning on for 20 years.”

Fidelma Healy-Eames, Fine Gael senator: “I guess the Savita Halappanavar case drove it into the ether.”

One Year Anniversaries Savita Halappanavar Sam Boal / Photocall Ireland Sam Boal / Photocall Ireland / Photocall Ireland

Lucinda Creighton, Fine Gael TD and Minister of State for European Affairs: “I mean obviously that put a huge focus on the issue. It’s kind of sad because that whole issue with her tragic death had nothing to do with this legislation.

“Anybody who reads the facts, reads the reports into Savita’s death knows that this legislation does nothing to address the Savita Halappanavar case and so that was just jumping on a bandwagon and using really tragic circumstances to pursue a cause. I think that’s really unfortunate, it’s not the kind of politics that I’m interested in being part of.

Joan Collins, United Left TD: ”I think the Savita case galvanised an awful lot of young women onto the streets which we hadn’t seen before. I think a lot of the young women thought that you could actually access an abortion over here. They didn’t realise you couldn’t until the whole issue came up, the tragic situation with Savita.”

Áodhan Ó Riordáin: “I think the Savita case made our job easier because there was a real case of a real person, with a real name, and a real face, in an Irish hospital who had been a victim of the uncertainty in Irish law. I think the fact she was not Irish actually made it more poignant because she was somebody who was not Irish but was a victim of the uncertainty that can happen in these tragic circumstances.”

Averil Power, Fianna Fáil senator: “It was dreadful that it took Savita’s death to finally have a mature conversation as a country, but I think that was the catalyst for it. In the immediate aftermath of her death, friends of mine rang me, particularly female friends of mine, and said: ‘Oh my god, I can’t believe this can happen in Ireland’. They were really shocked.”


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The government decision: “Enda Kenny did his u-turn in December… it was a fait accompli”

Amid a national outcry over the Savita case, an expert group set up to examine a European court ruling that Ireland’s abortion laws were in breach of human rights reported to government.  On foot of this the coalition committed to legislating for the X Case ruling on 18 December 2012. 

Fidelma Healy-Eames: “The first line of our policy pre-election in 2011 was: ‘Fine Gael will not legislate for abortion’. It then went on to speak about setting up an expert group.

Lucinda Creighton: ”Enda Kenny did his u-turn in December… One thing that both Enda Kenny and [his chief of staff] Mark Kennelly would have said is there are absolutely no circumstances under which we would agree to incorporate legislation for the X case. So the suicide element was not to be included and I was happy with that. I thought that clarified the situation.”

Jerry Buttimer: “It’s a very important topic that has bedevilled Irish politics and Irish society. I think the Taoiseach was right – that it was about clarification and codifying the law.”

Lucinda Creighton: “I had no difficulty in supporting the spirit of the legislation besides the suicide part, but then the Taoiseach went into a meeting with [Tánaiste] Eamon Gilmore. Obviously Eamon Gilmore said: ‘My leadership is under pressure and I need something’.

“Enda Kenny said: ‘Okay, grand’ and changed his mind entirely and decided that Fine Gael would support legislation for the X case which is contrary to what we said we would do in opposition. So, once he came out and made that statement after they met then it was clear. That was that – a fait accompli.”

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Rónán Mullen, independent senator: “A decision was taken, it was a political decision, it had to do with the Labour party, it had to do with Eamon Gilmore. He was probably pushing it under pressure from people who turned out not to have great support for him anyway.”

Fidelma Healy-Eames: “I fully believe when I give a pledge it has to mean something, but I also accept that if new evidence comes along and if I change my mind as a result of that new evidence that should be allowed, but that should be explained to the people and the Taoiseach and James Reilly never did explain that to the people. They never changed policy at Fine Gael parliamentary party level.”

Áodhan Ó Riordáin: “I was always very clear in my mind that the way we had to frame it was not on the substantive issue itself but on the constitutional imperative, because if you got into the substantive issue itself you’d lose the argument.

“It was about the Supreme Court judgement, the two referenda in 1992 and 2002, it was about the European Court of Human Rights judgement. So regardless of what piece of legislation we are talking about we have to legislate.”

Áine Collins, Fine Gael TD: “For me, we were in a situation where we had a Supreme Court ruling – which is the same as it being in the Constitution – and we had never put guidelines or regulations in place. For me, for women and as a woman and a mother myself, it was a very important issue.”

The committee hearings: ‘The hearings were part of the government spin’

As part of the drafting of the legislation, the Oireachtas Health and Children Committee, chaired by Jerry Buttimer, undertook three days of intensive hearings in January 2013 where it heard from doctors, legal experts and advocacy groups. 

Jerry Buttimer: “I made a decision that I would be the referee. I would be the man in the middle. I wasn’t going to get involved in arguing the case. My job was to allow people to speak, to present their cases and I suppose the committee were very much of the view that it was about hearing from expert witnesses, hearing testimony from cross-sections of people.” 

jerry-buttimer-2 Jerry Buttimer chairing the abortion hearings in the Seanad in January Oireachtas TV Oireachtas TV

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin: “The hearings were not about if we should or shouldn’t legislate for the suicide clause or whatever, it was about how best to do it. To my mind, politically, it needed to be framed that way.”

Rónán Mullen: “The one thing the government was not doing at any stage was listening.”

Jerry Buttimer: “I think to say that government didn’t listen wouldn’t be the case. It was an opportunity for people to engage. Many people were clamouring to be involved… I thought it was a worthwhile exercise.”

Lucinda Creighton: ”I would say that it is very clear from December onwards that the hearings were simply window dressing. It was to tick a box and present the image of consultation and listening to expert opinion, but that never really was the intention.”

Jerry Buttimer: “Who would have thought you’d have a former Supreme Court judge in Catherine McGuinness (below) and William Binchy arguing in the Seanad chamber? That was the one thing I was very much in awe of.”

Abortion Committee. Pictured leaving Le Catherine McGuinness Wanderley Massafelli / Photocall Ireland Wanderley Massafelli / Photocall Ireland / Photocall Ireland

Joan Collins: ”I think the committee hearings were a useful exercise. What they didn’t do is bring in the women with fatal foetal abnormalities. I think that was a crucial part of the legislation. For those women now they are being forced to travel to Britain for abortions in terrible situations.”

Fidelma Healy-Eames: “I think the hearings really informed me. The one thing that was really impressive was to have expertise at the level that was presented to us come in to the Oireachtas and to hear from all psychologists…

“There was unanimity that if a woman was suicidal in pregnancy that an abortion wouldn’t save her life and that was the crunch piece in the whole picture for me.”

The internal debate: “I saw fear in TDs’ eyes”

As the government moved towards drafting the legislation political parties and intense and fraught internal debate about how they were going to vote.

In Fine Gael there was much attention on the fate of Lucinda Creighton and others who appeared to be wavering on supporting the legislation while Fianna Fáil allowed a free vote after failing to find consensus.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin: “You could see very early on that an awful lot of people were nervous about it. You could see across the political parties that there were people who were nervous about it. Nervous about the type of representation they were getting, the type of pressure they were put under. It was probably the topic that politicians like talking about least, because there is no room for nuance.”

Lucinda Creighton: “It was a hot topic of conversation, really from December onwards. I would have just general conversations, chats in the Dáil bar over a cup of coffee and I would have had some very prominent backbenchers say to me: ‘There’s no way I am gonna vote for this’.

Fidelma Healy-Eames: ”There were three groups [in Fine Gael]. There was people who were happy with it, that wanted it, that were supporting the government’s position. Then there were people that were really betwixt and between and then there were those of us who finally lost the whip on this issue. I think myself that the Taoiseach made a fatal error on this one because he had a phenomenal opportunity in his hand to give those of us who wanted a free vote, a free vote.

Dail Debates Protection of Life during Pregnancy Bills Fidelma Healy-Eames Laura Hutton / Photocall Ireland Laura Hutton / Photocall Ireland / Photocall Ireland

Jerry Buttimer: “I suppose many people in the Fine Gael parliamentary party and many people in the Fine Gael organisation were uncomfortable – they had a difficulty. At the beginning when I heard we were going to do something I was unsure, but in my own case – and I mean this genuinely – I reflected upon the hearings, I listened, I read, I consulted, and I wasn’t uncertain at the end because it was about bringing certainty, about codifying the law.”

Lucinda Creighton: “I remember distinctly one particular backbencher saying: ‘If they want to do this by way of regulation, they can do it, but if they try to force us to go into the Dáil chamber and walk through the lobby or press a green button, I won’t do it, under any circumstances.’

He actually turned into one of the harshest critics of me and my colleagues [who voted against the legislation]. So there was a huge amount of absolute and utter hypocrisy, frankly.”

Áine Collins: “We didn’t want to tear the party apart and tear people apart. It would have been more challenging on all of us and everyone in chamber, and when you sign up to a party we know what we sign up for. If you don’t agree, you go independent.”

John Halligan, independent TD: “The memories I have are fear amongst the government TDs. I saw fear in TDs’ eyes. I saw TDs who didn’t want to take part in the debate, would not go on the radio, would not go on the television, for fear of intimidation. They felt that they should shut their mouths on it. Is that the way we want to be as a TD?”

A TheJournal.ie interview with Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin in February 2013: 

Video TheJournal.ie / YouTube

Averil Power: ”We held several meetings about it. We did discuss it in-depth as a parliamentary party. People had different views. Obviously Micheál’s position was that he had thought we would reach a consensus on it.

“So we had a number of meetings with a view to achieving that and seeing if that was possible. It then emerged that that wasn’t going to be possible and ultimately we had a free vote then.”

Rónán Mullen: “I think the view that I and other TDs and senators took when we realised that we were not going to be in a majority… was that we have to our job as parliamentarians and fight the good fight and interrogate this and point to the absurdities, dangers, hypocrisies and ask questions and in some cases questions that weren’t even asked in the Dáíl… That’s parliament doing it’s job when even the end result is known.”

The lobbying: “I got death threats from people”

As the debate continued on the airwaves, in the media and across Irish public life, TDs and Senators were being lobbied intensively and many reported unsavoury incidents of being threatened and intimidated. 

Averil Power: “I got postcards and letter and things like that. In each case I wrote back to them… We get weird, odd letters all the time in this job. There were some offensive pieces of correspondence. I think it was the government members that were subjected to incredible abuse. People picketing outside their houses. I wasn’t subjected to any of that.”

Jerry Buttimer: “I got lots of stuff, yeah. I got death threats from people. We got an email, one or two emails from people threatening to, basically because I was gay, kill me.”

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Áine Collins: “I found it difficult when walking into the office with people protesting outside door. It was my first experience of that being a new politician. It was a bit of challenge.”

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin: “People came into my office and sat down with me and told me of their reservations and I didn’t mind. We discussed, we disagreed and they went on with themselves, and that’s perfectly reasonable. Other people were less polite about it. People said things to you or members of your family. But if you’re gonna do it, you don’t do it because it’s easy, you do it because it’s hard.”

John Halligan: ”I was down in Waterford and some woman shook my hand and said she was not going to let go of my hand until I changed my mind while I was standing there. The manager had to throw her out.”

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Decision time: “I’ve never really had a serious conversation with Enda”

As the final text of the legislation moved closer TDs and Senators who were wavering on the issue faced decision time and much of the focus was on what Lucinda Creighton would do. But other parties had issues as well. 

Fidelma Healy-Eames: “I definitely had one very long telephone conversation with the Taoiseach… I didnt feel that the Taoiseach was listening really. I felt he was talking a lot. He kept going on about codifying the law… I just felt that he was closed. This was a decision long made. This was a red line issue for Labour.”

Lucinda Creighton: “I just had a conversation with him [the Taoiseach] on the jet coming back from the European Council in June, the last one of the presidency. I told him that I wouldn’t be voting for the legislation under any circumstances.

“He didn’t say a lot, he was rambling to be honest. He asked me what voices in my head wouldn’t allow me to vote for the legislation. I don’t know what he meant by that. He talked about women’s lives and codifying the law, as if we’re all out to end women’s lives. It was nonsense, it was absolute nonsense and none of it has been borne out. It didn’t frustrate me because I’ve seen it before. I’ve never really had a serious conversation with Enda, about anything.”

Europe Day Laura Hutton / Photocall Ireland Laura Hutton / Photocall Ireland / Photocall Ireland

Áodhan Ó Riordáin: “I know one deputy in particular put her own daughter in the situation of the X case victim and said: “What would I do as a parent? Could I be absolutely sure in every single circumstance that I wouldn’t have wanted for my daughter what the X case victim was given the opportunity to do – to travel to England?” She came to the conclusions that No, she wouldn’t. So you could see them changing and you could see them talking to each other.”

Averil Power: “Some members of the [Fianna Fáil] organisation wouldn’t have been happy with how I voted and would have said to me that it will cause me difficulties later, down the line.

“I told them that on an issue like this I could only ever vote for what I thought was right. I wouldn’t be able to live with myself or sleep at night if I felt that I voted on an issue like abortion on the basis of what might be politically advantageous.”

Rónán Mullen: “I was disappointed at the overall at the lack of principled engagement with the issues. Some politicians were good, very courteous about the issue. But other politicians just ran in the other direction and it was for fear you might say anything that might rock their world or their certainty.”

Joan Collins: “I arrived at a decision to vote against the Bill because it wasn’t going far enough. It was something but it wasn’t enough. Even the suicide, the limits around women who are suicidal, that’s outrageous…

“I mean it just didn’t go far enough and they were the areas that Labour had committed to deal with in the legislation. Obviously they were restrained by Fine Gael and what was going on there.”

Áodhan Ó Riordáin: “There was an awful lot of posturing. I mean people who voted against it who were out campaigning for it and then weeks beforehand said it didn’t include fatal foetal abnormality so they couldn’t vote for it.

“But sure it couldn’t include fatal foetal abnormality, it wouldn’t have been constitutional. That’s what the Attorney General said, that was the understanding from the constitution. The likes of the Socialist Party and the independents were voting against this thing.

“I thought that was quite fake and quite grandstanding for grandstanding’s sake because they couldn’t actually bring themselves to vote for something that we had actually delivered. I thought that was quite pathetic.”

The Dáil debates: “They had to let everyone speak”

The Protection of Life during Pregnancy Bill was introduced in the Dáil on 20 June 2013, kickstarting a marathon legislative process… 

Joan Collins: “The Dáil debates were quite dignified, it went on for so long… they had to let everybody speak…. I think it was right to let the debate go. It was right to let everybody have their say on what was obviously the biggest issue at the time. The biggest social issue anyway.”

Rónán Mullen: “I thought there were very good moments. I thought Lucinda Creighton’s speech in the Dáil was particularly fine. There were some very fine contributions on the debate despite the limitations imposed on the process.”

Video TheJournal.ie / YouTube

Lucinda Creighton: “I wrote it on the Sunday night and I just wrote it at home on my iPad. I just wanted to make the points. Second stage of a bill like that is an opportunity to make broader points, not just about the specifics of the legislation but also about the context and the broader issue.

“I suppose there were just things that I wanted to get off my chest, that I wanted to put on the record that, you know, people like Enda Kenny didn’t want to deal with.”

Averil Power: “I thought there were a lot of holes in her speech, particularly as a lawyer, not a lot of it stood up. She was bringing up High Court cases that overruled Supreme Court cases, a lot of the arguments didn’t stand up.

“But I still respected the fact that ultimately she could only vote for whatever way [she felt] was right for whatever reasons. Whether I agree with those reasons or not, and I don’t think she should have lost her job over it.”

The late-sitting: ‘I think 5am sessions are not a good idea’ 

After passing second stage and going to committee the Bill returned to the Dáil for a final debate and vote on 10 July with crowds gathering outside Leinster House and TDs preparing for a late night. 

AoifeBarryTJ / YouTube

Áodhan Ó Riordáin: “There was a sense of being cocooned inside of here because the huge presence outside from both sides. The pro-life demonstration was quite colourful and quite positive and non-threatening but there was another one which was quite threatening and quite ugly outside the front gates. They had all these posters of foetuses and that was quite distressing. That got a bit nasty towards the end and they’d recognise you and shout abuse at you.”

Joan Collins: “It was just bedlam, it was madness. It was one thing that actually struck me, they had one group on one side of the gates and the other group on the other side. People were shouting things at each other and holy water was getting splashed on me and it was just incredible.”

Rónán Mullen: “I remember on the night there were some of the pro choice advocates saying: ‘We are winning, you are losing’. That struck me as very revealing given what was at stake and given what the issues were.

“I would have thought that if they were happy that the legislation had passed they should be at least mindful that as a result of that some people may lose their lives in the circumstances where they wouldn’t have had to… for people who were glad to see this pass cheering and chanting the potential death of other people – I was sorry about that.”

Abortion Vote Passed Laura Hutton / Photocall Ireland Laura Hutton / Photocall Ireland / Photocall Ireland

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin: “I think 5am sessions are not a good idea.”

Lucinda Creighton: “Sitting until 5am was unnecessary. It was to make a point, to sort of demonstrate how committed we are to freedom of speech. I thought it was unnecessary.

“We were told that this legislation was urgent, had to be introduced in a panic and yet the regulations were only circulated the other day so the legislation is not being implemented.”

Averil Power: “There was no need for the legislation to be rushed through like that. There was no reason why we couldn’t have sat four more days to finish it through. it seemed to be more about a political decision than anything else.

Jerry Buttimer: ”I understand why the whip ordered the business the way he did. Here’s the deal, you had backbench TDs in some cases having protests at their offices twice a week for a number of months. I think a summer of continuing protests and lobbying would have served no purpose and I do believe it was right to get it done before the recess.”

Lapgate: ‘There was an air of drunkenness in the chamber’

As the Dáil sat until 5am and the bars in Leinster House remained open, there were more than a few TDs enjoying a drink and there was the infamous lapgate incident when Tom Barry pulled his Fine Gael colleague Áine Collins onto his lap in the Dáil chamber… 

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin: “It was a late night and it was an emotional time, we were there till 5am, some people walked around, some people went for coffee, you couldn’t leave the place because there could be a vote called at any time. Some of us got together, some of us had a chat, you know. It was a strange night.”

Áine Collins: “That night I remember sitting down having tea and a Twix bar with Deputy [Simon] Coveney and he was having tea too. I’m not sure what the others were doing.”

Lucinda Creighton: “Any late-night sitting there are people imbibing alcohol in the Dáil bar.”

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John Halligan: “If you’re going to go in your car or for an interview with a journalist or if you were going on TV, would you fire down four or five pints? You wouldn’t. But here was a critical debate that would have far-reaching consequences for legislation in the country and people saw fit to go in and down as much drink as they wanted to drink.”

Joan Collins:  “There was an air of drunkenness in the chamber, absolutely. I saw one particular person nearly falling down the steps of the chamber and obviously had a few drinks on them.”

Lucinda Creighton: “I was up in a colleague’s office in Leinster House and I think I might have seen something on Twitter [about lapgate] and then they got the video up and we were all watching it – horrified. What do you say?

Joan Collins: “I did see it. I was sitting watching it and saying: ‘What’s going on over there’. I thought it was outrageous, absolutely outrageous.”

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Áine Collins: ”You can’t change it, it happened and I would have preferred if it didn’t happen. I’m sure Deputy Barry would say the same but I can’t speak for him. He apologised, it was unfortunate timing and everything was just unfortunate but we have to move on from these decisions.”

Jerry Buttimer: “I don’t think it was damaging but I think to be fair to the people involved none of them will have treated the matter lightly and it was an unfortunate incident.”

Rónán Mullen: “I mean that was just a TD being idiotic. It always looks awful when politicians are under the influence and acting like that. I mean that’s not what the public expects from them, maybe it is what the public expects, but it’s not what the public wants. But I don’t think it’s what the public expects and I think it’s stupid to be having debates up to 5 o’clock in the morning.”

Joan Collins: “I think it’s wrong to extend the Dáil to those times, there’s no point, there’s no need for it, you know.

“I think it portrayed Ireland in a bad way, that went all over the world, discussing women’s reproductive rights and then you have a male just grabbing a woman… he has to live with that.”

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The bill passes the Dáil: “I remember getting upset in my own office’

As the marathon legislative session moved into Thursday, 11 July, and the final stages of its passage through the Dáil, a junior minister lost their job and other TDs got emotional… 

Lucinda Creighton: “A lot of my colleagues had voted against the second stage. I didn’t because I felt it was important to go through the legislation and try and change it, try in vain to change it.

“So I voted against an amendment at half nine in the evening, and then that was that. I went over to Enda Kenny afterwards and I shook his hand and I wished him the best of luck with his government and he asked me for my letter of resignation. That was that.

“I was emotional, I was really tired, I’d had a mental six months and I was exhausted really at the whole thing and it was emotional. I was tired and I’ve been in Fine Gael since I was 18 you know that was kind of sad but I didn’t have any anxiety at all. I’d made up my mind.”

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin: “I think once we got it through the Dáil we were happy enough. I remember when it was passed, and it was done, there was a kind of a ripple of small applause, but nothing jubilant.

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“I remember when it was done going back to my office and getting upset actually in my own office. I think the Sunday Independent article, the strain it put on my family, the apologies I had to make to people close to me, the emotional rollercoaster that I had been through personally and then knowing that people around you who had campaigned for this for so long, and had been vilified for it.”

Jerry Buttimer: “In hindsight, reflecting on it, my overriding emotion was relief. It was mentally and physically draining because there was a huge, high level of lobbying on one side in particular – the pro life side – and there was a sustained period where there was just this onslaught of advocacy by a group of people and that affected many people.

“How it affected their campaigning, I have no idea. I suppose the bottom line is that government’s must legislate and that’s it, that’s the job of the government.”

Abortion Vote Passed Aodhán Ó Ríordáin outside Leinster House after the Bill passed. Laura Hutton / Photocall Ireland Laura Hutton / Photocall Ireland / Photocall Ireland

The bill moves to the Seanad: ‘I don’t like when emotion becomes part of the debate’

After passing the Dáil and committee stage, the Bill moved to the Seanad where the language used by Fianna Fáil’s Jim Walsh caused controversy and Fidelma Healy-Eames was one of two Fine Gael senators to oppose the legislation… 

Rónán Mullen: “I think there was an awareness that this was a moment in time, this was a step, it was important to fight it, it was unjust legislation but it’s not the first piece of unjust legislation we’ve ever had in this country and it won’t be the last, it’s just a very important one.”

Lucinda Creighton: “I certainly recall thinking that Jim Walsh’s contribution was not the most sensitive.”

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Averil Power: “I found it very hard to listen to a lot of that language. Other colleagues got upset about it. [Labour] Senator Marie Maloney got very upset after one of the senators had given a very graphic description and she got very upset because she’d lost a baby, she’d had a miscarriage. I felt that the way that some members approached the debate was disrespectful and it was deliberately offensive and I think it was designed to be offensive.”

Rónán Mullen: “I think what Senator Walsh was doing was exposing aspects of this debate that the government were unwilling to talk about.”

Jerry Buttimer: “I thought they [Walsh's comments] were out of place, I thought they were vile, I thought they were vitriolic, I thought they were sensational headline grabbing and they demeaned the chamber and it didn’t serve them well.”

Rónán Mullen: “I don’t like when emotion becomes part of the debate, I think that can inhibit a debate and in some cases that can be used as a stick to beat other people who you may disagree with and I don’t like that.”

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Fidelma Healy-Eames: “I remember there was some family in the gallery when I voted No and to be fair [Fine Gael senators] Martin Conway sat one side of me and Michael Mullins sat the other, and one of them had said to me: ‘Fidelma, remember now when you go to the top of that hill, when you push that button, you could be on your own.’

“I was ready to be on my own and I was so blurred I could not see the screen, and I couldn’t tell if anybody else had voted with me. It’s almost like I went a little bit blank on it. I went around to Paul Bradford [a Fine Gael colleague who also voted No] and I said: ‘What did you do?’ So there were two us which makes it a bit easier.”

Rónán Mullen: ”What we saw in the end was the outworking of a flawed Supreme Court judgement in the X case and it took whatever, 21 years, for that to kind of be given some kind of legislative effect and we’ll have to see what it actually leads to in practice. But it was a bad step.”

Averil Power: “It was a difficult time and I found the debates difficult as well and at times emotional too but I suppose I came out of it having done what I thought was the right thing.”

Looking back: ‘It was wicked’

The Protection of Life during Pregnancy Bill passed its final stages in the Seanad on 23 July 2013 and was sent to the President. Michael D Higgins decided to convene the Council of State on the Bill before he eventually signed into law. 

Council of State Meeting in Aras an Uach Sasko Lazarov / Photocall Ireland Sasko Lazarov / Photocall Ireland / Photocall Ireland

Nearly a year on, TDs and Senators take differing views on that period in their legislative careers and what it all meant… 

Áine Collins: “It feels like a lifetime ago, so much has happened since. I think it was taken as seriously as it should have been, it was a difficult issue, purely for the obvious reason of the emotion and all the challenges around it.”

Rónán Mullen: “We’re disappointed that Ireland took this step, that our government led us to taking this step but I think people feel it’s a moment in time, it’s a particular phase in a debate that may in the long term go in a better direction in the western world.”

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin: “I think both sides are now at a stage where they may come to a conclusion that we need to discuss the 8th Amendment because the pro-life side never envisaged that the 8th Amendment would lead to this. Of course the pro-choice side have a major difficulty with it.

“So I think maybe we should have a maturity now in public discourse where we can talk about the abortion issue in a wider context and I look forward to that day.”

Jerry Buttimer: “It’s hard to believe it’s 12 months on. The world hasn’t fallen down, we haven’t got an avalanche of people clamouring to come before the expert panel. We haven’t seen the floodgates open, the doomsday scenario hasn’t taken place and I would pose the question what has changed?”

screenshot.1405592424.68479 www.thejournal.ie www.thejournal.ie

Fidelma Healy-Eames: ”I was disappointed with the lack of tolerance because this is business, this is our business, we’re lawmakers, we legislated, we have to make decisions.

“It’s not defining my whole life, my friendships are important to me as well, but I think it’s very important that people know each other’s value set and a value I put great credence on is the value of human life and the gift that it is. I also believe in being tolerant and I didn’t see that in some people.”

John Halligan: “I think the whole episode wasn’t good for democracy. People think it was but it was overplayed in the Dáil, prolonged to suit the church and the pro-lifers, knowing that they had a majority and those of us in opposition had already said what we were going to say. We had said what we had to say and then all the amendments were just booted down the road without debate. It was wicked.”

Joan Collins: “I genuinely believed that every family has been touched by a situation where their daughter or someone else they know has become pregnant and they have to take decisions. It’s not hidden under the carpet like it was 30 or 40 years ago. It’s out in the open much more so now. Families have to deal with it and deal with it in the best way they can.”

Lucinda Creighton: ”Compromises in coalition are always essential, even though you mightn’t like them. I think compromises on issues of this sort cross a red line that I don’t believe is appropriate.

“I don’t think Fine Gael should have compromised on its values and I don’t think that it should have reneged on its pre-election promise. So I’ve no regrets. I think I did the right thing, I’m pretty happy.”

Interviews carried out individually between 25 June and 9 July by Hugh O’Connell and Michelle Hennessy. 

With thanks to Áine Collins, Jerry Buttimer, Aodhán Ó Ríordáin, Averil Power, Rónán Mullen, Fidelma Healy-Eames, John Halligan, Lucinda Creighton, and Joan Collins for their contributions. 

Ireland at the UN: We have ‘no solution’ for women who can’t afford to travel for an abortion

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105 Comments
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    Mute Conor
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:03 PM

    Pointless exercise. Chap is a bullshit merchant.

    147
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    Mute Brian MacCarthaigh
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:06 PM

    When’s he going to stop vulture funds raping our citizen’s???

    141
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    Mute Frank Cauldhame
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:45 PM

    It won’t happen on Coveney’s watch, he’s a proven spoofer.

    71
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    Mute Tra Hughes
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:20 PM

    Minister, according to the last census there are tens of thousands of empty/unused dwellings. Is there anything in place to make owners of such properties release same, make it a less attractive option.

    134
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    Mute Fred Johnson
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:41 PM

    Yes there is. Make it much easier to evict tenants who aren’t bothering to pay their rent.

    56
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    Mute Tra Hughes
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:47 PM

    Vacant dwellings don’t have tenants Fred.

    104
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    Mute john Appleseed
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    Jan 11th 2017, 8:26 PM

    Reduce capital gains tax. It’s just not worth selling for so many

    43
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    Mute Pat Patovic
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    Jan 12th 2017, 1:22 AM

    @Tra Hughes: Define “release”.

    1
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    Mute Charlie Melia
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    Jan 12th 2017, 4:53 AM

    Freddy testicle brain above gave the best laugh of this ridiculously scripted interview / FG Party Political Broadcast

    13
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    Mute Charlie Melia
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    Jan 12th 2017, 4:57 AM

    @Tra Hughes: Easy to make them release. Any residential dwelling lying idle for over a year should be taxed at 3-5% of total value every year. Force them to sell or get a tenant. Similar to what is being done with commercial and land banks… There is also a derelict building law which means the Councils can take the houses over, already there for councils to use……

    14
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    Mute Pat Patovic
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    Jan 13th 2017, 12:12 AM

    @Charlie Melia: So you want this country to change to communist dictatorship with no regards to private rights or ownership.

    2
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    Mute tom
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:36 PM

    Build aforable and social houses today. If developers aren’t interested then state should directly employ builders to build.

    109
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    Mute Coles
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:19 PM

    Completely agree. That is the only solution.

    Builders will never build houses for people who can’t afford to buy them. It really is that simple.

    Coveney is trying to force up property values (by jacking up rents and yields) in order to release those in negative equity and encourage them to spend money due to the perceived wealth effect. This is a central part of their economic recovery plan. This ‘recovery’ is as false as the boom conditions it is trying to mimic. It’s worse still because there is no wall of credit available to maintain it if even for a few years.

    In order to force up prices the construction supply has been strangled, migration into the country has been ramped up, rural depopulation is enforced through lack of employment, and then he expects the working poor to save for deposits to but ‘affordable’ housing? It’s never going to happen and these policies need to be reversed immediately.

    72
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    Mute john Appleseed
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    Jan 11th 2017, 8:27 PM

    God no! Look at the mess Alan Kelly made. Reduce tax for builders building social housing. Try an incentive for private enterprises

    8
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    Mute Redcaff
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:16 PM

    Why don’t the government or IDA give incentives to companies to allow some staff to work from home, but only if they move away from Dublin to a rural location (i.e. Where the person is actually from).

    This would free up housing stock while repopulating rural Ireland, keeping shops, pubs and even towns open.

    99
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    Mute PaulJ
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:27 PM

    Do you realise how bad broadband is in most rural areas?

    47
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    Mute Linda Nolan
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:11 PM

    When are they going to build?

    79
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    Mute Barnes
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:04 PM

    How many Ministers and TD’s are landlords themselves?

    71
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    Mute Frank Cauldhame
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:09 PM

    @Barnes:

    I think its 20%, according to a recent survey. 1 in 5.

    35
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    Mute Coles
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:23 PM

    @Frank Cauldhame: That was an incomplete survey. The correct figure is in excess of 30%.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/nearly-one-in-five-tds-are-landlords-registry-shows-399892.html

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    Mute Coles
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:44 PM

    Also worth noting that when asked a number of TDs and Ministers have in the past failed to reveal that they were landlords (including Minister Simon Coveney).

    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/12/09/forget-something-2/

    49
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    Mute Frank Cauldhame
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    Jan 11th 2017, 8:02 PM

    @Coles:

    Thought it might be higher alright. Then when you add in the scene they move about in….

    19
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    Mute Charlie Melia
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    Jan 12th 2017, 4:07 AM

    @Barnes: As with their Cllr colleagues most property is either corruptly undeclared or transferred in their spouse name therefore hiding these assets from scrutiny. Here in Wicklow we have several Cllrs and at least one TD who have dones this hiding millions in assets from public declarations of interests and assets……

    5
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    Mute Ultan
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:19 PM

    Will he the very least get these vulture funds to pay proper tax? Will he cap rent to reduce the profit these companies can make and maybe leave us alone? €2800 a month on rent is absolutely madness.

    68
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    Mute Science of beer
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:23 PM

    Holey moley €2800 a month on rent. Where are you living?

    39
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    Mute Ro Brett
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    Jan 12th 2017, 8:52 AM

    @Science of beer: Anywhere in D1 to 12. Tho its generally closer to 1200 per room now than 1400.

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    Mute Adrian
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:41 PM

    When is he going to resign? And none of this “I’m not a quitter guff”. The reality is he’s just not capable.

    64
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    Mute Frank Cauldhame
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:48 PM

    @Adrian:

    Spot on. Look at the mess he left our fishing industry in.

    Plus as a landlord himself I’ve no trust in his motives with regard to this issue. He needs to go, not in a few months time as is the mantra of this government but now.

    65
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    Mute tom
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    Jan 12th 2017, 12:55 AM

    As a landlord with vested interest he should step aside

    11
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    Mute Coles
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:23 PM

    Coveney said that the 4% rent increase rate was set “to give investors a decent return”

    Stop for a second and look at how headline rent relates to the rate of return on investment.

    If a landlord is currently making a ‘decent’ return on investment of 4% and then increases the headline rent by 4% per annum over 3 years the “decent return on investment” actually becomes in excess of 15%per annum.

    Don’t confuse the headline rent and the return on investment. Very different things. Coveney knows this and is deliberately misleading people in order to enrich landowners.

    58
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    Mute Coles
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:32 PM

    Red thumbs? Why?

    Do the maths. It’s fairly simple.

    43
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    Mute Frank Cauldhame
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:51 PM

    @Coles:

    The drones in the Mount St basement bunker are scrambling to red thumb every negative comment and it looks like they’re in for a busy night.

    43
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    Mute Coles
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:06 PM

    @Frank Cauldhame: Yeah, it was funny to watch. 10 immediate red thumbs on a point of fact that can’t even be disputed.

    34
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    Mute Kieran O'Sullivan
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:42 PM

    @Coles.
    Your maths do not add up. If the yield is 4% and the rent goes up 4% a year for 3 years and the property value remains static. After the years the yield is 4.5% not 16%. And that assumes the Propery price does not increase.

    7
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    Mute Coles
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:54 PM

    Thanks Keiran, but let’s look at the figures.

    For ease of calculation let’s assume a rent of €1000 is giving a ‘decent rate of return of 4%’ and is clearing €40 profit on the investment per month.

    If that rent is increased by 4% in the first year the rent is now €1040. Because of 0% CPI the profit has now increased to €80 per month. The return on investment has doubled to 8%.

    If in the second year the rent is increased by a further 4% the rent is now €1080 per month. The profit has now increased to €120 per month and is giving a return of 12% on the investment.

    Repeat this a third year and the rent is now €160 and the return on investment is 16%.

    21
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    Mute David Thomas
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    Jan 11th 2017, 8:16 PM

    Maybe the just don’t get maths coles.

    12
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    Mute Kieran O'Sullivan
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    Jan 11th 2017, 8:50 PM

    @coles, normally yield is used, but lets use your method. 1000 per month at 5% yield suggests a property value of 240,000. So using your methodology we are making 40 Euro a month profit on 240,000 in deployed capital. Or an annual return of 480 euro on 240,000 investment. Or .002%

    7
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    Mute Kieran O'Sullivan
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    Jan 11th 2017, 9:32 PM

    @coles the basic mistake you are making is how you think the 1000 per month is the investment and 40 euros profit is the return on the investment. Incorrect, the price paid for the property is the investment. The rent is the EBITA return on investment.

    7
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    Mute Linda Nolan
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    Jan 12th 2017, 12:04 AM

    @Kieran O’Sullivan: That was educational thanks.

    5
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    Mute Coles
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:27 PM

    Ask Minister Coveney when Fine Gael intend to suspend their policy of forcing up house prices.

    When he denies it remind him of this:

    http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/theres-no-housing-bubble-michael-noonan-wants-prices-to-rise-30168455.html

    56
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    Mute prop joe
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:33 PM

    Why all the empty property? Why is lpt not paid for vacant property? Why not charge for having empty units. The tallest building in the country in nearly entirely empty. Apart from the staff turning lights on, to make it look like someone is living there.

    54
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    Mute Shawn O'Ceallaghan
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:09 PM

    I don’t want to rent I want to buy. I might as well buy rather than rent. If i rent im just paying someone else mortgage. 3.5 times mortgage limit needs to be raised. 10% deposit is handy enough though.

    52
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    Mute Liam John Bradshaw
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:26 PM

    Vulture funds have soared the property’s, their a business investment company’s, in Sandy Ford alone they have 2 blocks of apartments with 2 bed properties going for €2,800 per month. The Government let the Vulture Capitalists in & have now lost the battle for the housing!

    43
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    Mute Shane Corry
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:29 PM

    Not a great interviewer, would be great to actually be able to hear more than a few words of his answers before he’s interrupted! What’s the point of asking a question and not waiting for the answer..

    41
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    Mute Alan Ball
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:43 PM

    I took the time to absorb as much as possible of the ministers replies and to be honest it became pretty clear very early on, that this was no more than a lightweight interview with questions put to the minister that had clearly been rehearsed or at the very least agreed upon beforehand.Typical journal ass licking exercise. Pointless to be honest.

    36
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    Mute Karl Monaghan
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:54 PM

    How is it Minister, you can fix rent, but you can’t reduce mortgage interest rates or car insurance gouging as this is interference in a “free market”????

    34
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    Mute Niall Cassidy
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:38 PM

    This excuse for a minister along with his colleagues do not give a damn about the welfare of anybody.

    28
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    Mute Tony Daly
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:00 PM

    1. Is there a maximum commercial yield to which any any landlord should be entitled is respect of any residential rentred property?

    2. Should landlords be entitled to evict sitting tenants when selling residential rental properties?

    3. Why are there better balanced landlord and tenant laws protecting residential tenants and longer term security of tenure in all other EU countries compared to Ireland?

    25
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    Mute David Cullen
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:11 PM

    i know this is a difficult concept for the government to understand but build council houses simple

    24
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    Mute Kerry Blake
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    Jan 11th 2017, 7:33 PM

    ” Coveney launched a major plan” ah lost interest in the article after reading that. If I got €1 for every major plan that various governments have had over the years I’d be retired and living in the Bahamas….

    23
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    Mute MattCz
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:28 PM

    The government could increase supply if they taxed 2nd home housing income at 90%+. Would he consider introducing such a measure? This would also emphasise that dwellings are a construct for living in and not for making money.

    Does he have any plans to tackle short-term rentals like Airbnb?

    15
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    Mute Is Mise jay
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    Jan 11th 2017, 10:01 PM

    Can you explain how that would increase supply?? It would actually do the opposite in fact

    6
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    Mute Nick Drake
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:32 PM

    What is the plan for non first time buyers, we’re constantly hearing of plans for first time buyers, but nothing people who had a home now rent, and maybe would like to buy again.

    15
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    Mute Brown Boots
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:16 PM

    Pointless exercise that!

    14
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    Mute Eoin Cowan
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    Jan 11th 2017, 8:28 PM

    Simon Coveney’s hairline is as disconnected as he is from the reality!

    10
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    Mute Sam
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    Jan 11th 2017, 10:50 PM

    Just listened to the interview with minister covney. Shocking is the only way to describe it. The journalist spent the first 12 minutes talking about Apollo house, did I miss something here, was this not supposed to be about renting and not homeless. She only asked 6 questions which were not priority to renters/ landlord. Coventry was long winded and some only in general terms hoping his wish list would come true. He was not asked why developers are not building and the cost of tax in construction. Why vulture funds are paying no tax on there investment. Why they have a capital gains free exit.Why are vulture funds getting 50℅ off the value and Irish citizens are discriminated against. Why an outside investor pays on 20 ℅ tax on rental income.With all the tax charges in renting has it not an effect on rental prices.Why are landlords paying 60℅ tax on rental income,of course this does not include 20℅ maintaince. Where is the money in it for landlords,why are there so many leaving this business. Why property tax is not included in a cost.There were so many important questions, it was an opportunity to seek answers but the journal failed. It very much appears from Coveny that renters must get used to renting as he appeared quite smug that this was the norm in Europe. Bluster,bluster and more bluster, i am more concerned now this man has not a clue about . Shame on the journalist for being so I’ll prepared and weak.

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    Mute Derek Lyster
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    Jan 11th 2017, 10:05 PM

    Bit late on the day for this but clearly fg are not fit for office and the homeless crisis has gotten worse by the day since you took office. Why not do the right thing and resign

    8
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    Mute Stuart McHugh
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    Jan 11th 2017, 11:20 PM

    Jesus that was awful.

    5
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    Mute Pat Stuart
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    Jan 11th 2017, 11:39 PM

    With marital breakdowns & homelessness, we now need smaller units or homes for people to move into. These homes should be built with single people or a couple in mind. They can be offered the homes on a trial period for 2 – 5 years, opting out if they decide to move on & purchase their own homes from 1-5 years as tenants & be entitled to a cash sum for freeing up a home. If they stay for the full tenancy period & build up a proper credit point rating with the local Councils they can then be moved on to a more permanent home. We don’t need people who rip their homes apart & expect the Council to put them back together for them free of charge. At the end of the 5 year period let them be judged by their Tenancy agreement with the Council & be awarded a better home when available.

    2
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    Mute Lazlo Saint Pierre
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    Jan 11th 2017, 11:20 PM

    Not a great interview but interesting to see if stands over his words considering he chose to do this interview, it’s not like he was acosted on the street. He had his answers prepared so they should carry some weight. I took some notes of the interview, paraphrasing mostly, don’t take it as being the exact words he used and review the video for clarification. One that struck me was the rent cap, 4% pa over 3 years – sure after the 3 years you calculate the loss, turf out the tenant, get a new one in and add on the loss from the 3 years? As I said these are his words, feel free to hold him to them.

    Homelessness/Apollo

    “It’s not just about beds, it’s also support, services, safety”

    “State needs to provide sufficient accomodation

    “Emphasis on social housing build program and getting homeless families into a home of their own”

    “20,000 homes to be built by NAMA by 2020″

    “. . . deliver on the promise to get people out of hotels by this summer (2017)”

    800 families in hotel accom is “not acceptable and we are going to change it”

    . . .not good enough that children are doing their homework in hotels and without kitchen facilities . . .

    “I will personally be involved in setting those targets and making sure we meet them (by the middle of the year)”

    We have a country now that has the resources available to it that should allow us to deal with this issue, my job is to force the pace and make it happen

    Rental Discussion

    Talks about the rent cap and the possibility of new rent cap zones based on RTB data

    “more importantly we need to get suppy up significantly”

    3300 Dublin apartments on AirBnb last summer – according to the reporter

    AirBnB properties will need to apply for change of use in planning if used for short term lets on a rolling basis

    We have commited as a gov to spending 5.3 Billion to add 47,000 social houses

    we have 1000′s of void local authority houses back in to use in last 2 years

    Mentions problem of over 65′s and rental problem, says FTB grant is working to improve this and allow people to buy a home, also CB rules on mortgages for FTB helps them also, and also mentioned Euro has culture of renting for life and Ireland could have the same, mentions a pension provison for over 65′s in the future possibly, rental market can change over time and become an option for long term renters

    Tyrellstown Amendment starts next week, if a vulture fund buys a group of apartments of more than 10 units the tenants are protected, tenancies stay intact under this amendment, law will not apply retrospectively in the case of Limerick situation so those tenants may have a problem

    “What we need to do is have a much more predictable calmer market,that has supply that meets demand, when we have a broken market the Gov needs to intervene to protect tenants and give certainty to LL’s, which is what we have done in the Rental Strategy, but ultimatley we need a lot more supply, in next 25 years a million more people, many will want to live in Dublin,and unless we find a way to build a lot more quality accomodation that is affordable for people, which is what we are focussing on, particularly in using public land, then we are going to have huge problems with commuting and traffic and congestion and all the other things that are all ready a probl;em in Dublin, supply supply supply in the right areas, high density and high quality in urban locations, thats what we are really trying to drive”

    Lending cap is imposed by CB, as it should be, they looked at trends and changed deposit requirement in recent weeks.

    Need much higher buildings in Dub, high quality urban living, green spaces, we need to deliver change, Im also the min for Planning, we need to do that over time, devolopers and funds are interested in investing in Dublin and other cities.

    1
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    Mute Patricia McCarthy
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    Jan 11th 2017, 6:30 PM

    Is Coveney a Landlord himself? How many properties does he own and let?

    1
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