I have a feeling it might have something to do with GEEFOR,anyone else think that?

We’re just pawns that’s why.. the Irish government would give over any and all information if requested by the US government. Your ‘nationalistic pride’ that we aren’t part of the surveillance scheme is misplaced. The fact of the matter is Ireland is just a small, insignificant country (much less than many US cities) and that is why we weren’t mentioned…

@David my point was broader

There is a big diff between your gmail/slkype to an American being scanned n recorded and us turning into the US.
My pride comes from knowing if the govt locks me in a cage Gitmo style the courts would free me absent hard evidence of wrongdoing.

°It comes from knowing our polices authority comes from community’s respect for them not from fear or armed force + that even when they use their firearms someone rarely gets killed.

°It comes from knowing nobody at G2 can do a search on my name n have all my past chats n info to blackmail me with

°It comes from watching Vincent Brown and knowing we don’t have the preening ‘too close to power’ bias of the US press and that we would not threaten a journalists spouse with jail for not opening access to his laptop in an airport as retaliation for their spouses story, as they did with Greenwalds partner

°It comes from knowing if I wanna protest at a party conference I’ll b allowed n I won’t b put in a razor wire cage like in the US (google ‘free speech zones’ even the name has Orwellian chill)

I’m without a doubt the most critical contributor here of the Irish state, I’ve called us a neocolony, a failed state and I’m writing a book that suggests the rots so deep we need to dump the whole thing n start over..but I’m a damn proud citizen when I see these contrasts.

If the government changed the law and enacted a PATRIOT Act, your pride won’t get you far.

The “pride” thing is a bit far though. Does the UK really do what you mentioned? You’re just picking the worst parts of the US. Lots of other countries (Holland, Sweden, Germany, France etc) also don’t behave like the US in these matters.

Ireland is a very small country but we really do just bow to UK and US interests. More so than Sweden, Holland etc. so you’re pride is honestly ridiculous. It can be summed up as: I’m proud to be 1) Not the US and 2) a small, insignificant country. Lots of countries meet this criteria…

Also, I love Ireland.

https://wikileaks.org/aus-suppression-order/?gag

The journalists spouse example was at Heathrow Airport.

So they seized this guys partner as he was going through an airport, to intimidate Greenwald into stopping his reporting, threatening him with jail etc. The longest detention in standard immigration screening is never longer than an hour in 97.2% of cases, they kept him for 9 hours with zero evidence of any actual wrongdoing. Attempting to intimidate the press into silence is one of the many hallmarks of a police state.

We think of the UK as a very benign power because we share so much culturally with them. An Irish tracksuit brigade head and a Brit ”scally” are identical, a south Dublin rugby jock and one from west London are identical but for their accents, we watch the same TV shows, share the same cultural references with south park, the simplsons etc but you gotta remember the UK is one of the ”five eyes” part of a global survalance network that before the Bush-Blair era was focused on terrorism (with a few economic exceptions) but is now part of this hydra of a big brother system. They do not have a constitution…really think about that…there is no constitution within very very very very broad grounds the UK govt can do anything it wants and it’s courts are FAR more deferential to govt power than ours and even the states are.
Remember what they did in the north, the wonton torture etc google ”Operation Demetrius” you will see how innocent people were locked up in dungeons after soilders crashed through their houses at 5am.
There was an incident at an Iraq war protest that was utterly bizzare and chilling, the police intercepted the two coaches on their way to a site, surrounded them, and forced them to travel with them to a protest site the police had selected miles away from their own chosen site, when the people tried to get off the bus the police beat them and shoved them back onboard even holding the doors closed!

As to the other countries sure…absolutely, Switzerland etc don’t have these abuses, I DID NOT SAY IRELAND WAS UNIQUE I just said I was proud we were not turning out like the US and UK.
We may indeed not be unique but we are in a very very small club of countries that has real genuine republican traditions.
We do not ”bow” to the US thats utter nonsense, let them f___ing refuel planes as we do Russian planes and every other planes thats not ”bowing” to anything, we did not participate in the Iraq War or even the legal and perfectly justified Afghanistan war.
We bowed to nothing.

@Tony that made me breathe a sign of releif…I was half braced, after my flag waving rant, to see IRELAND ENGAGES IN GAG ORDER WITH THE US AND UK TO SUPRESS EVIDENCE OF NEW RENDITION PROGRAMME.

I would have just crawled under my bed and not posted for about 5 years.

@Ryan Some good points there and I wholeheartedly agree RE Britian and their potential power over their “subjects”. Their lack of constitution etc is a disgrace and monarchy a joke.

@David Andrews,

It might surprise you that the UK is perhaps worse than the US for the spying capabilities. GCHQ has more sweeping powers of mass surveillance lacking constitutional safeguards, not only on foreigners but even its own citizens.

As for Ireland, I often feel we could do with an annual reminder (Independence day/ Constitution day) that the liberties we enjoy were very hard earned. The further a country gets from its liberation, the more complacent it gets in sacrificing liberty for security it seems. We also need to get off the US foreign policy bandwagon.

I travelled regularly between Belfast and Glasgow in the late 80′s as I was at college in Glasgow. It was a nightmare. It was a nightmare. Anyone travelling as Irish was immediately a suspect. Special ‘terrorist’ room before travelling back. Regular stop and searches. As soon as I said my name straight away, can we check your bag etc. My experience was nothing compared to that of males you were often detained for hours, even days. No respect for Britain and civil rights.

What’s a GEEFOR?

That’ll do pig,that’ll do.

Yeah but do you lift?

Don’t be so naive. Our constitution has been eroded and EU law supercedes it. Have a quick read of the amendments in our constitution and you will see it is pretty worthless. Once the EU gets its federal union you can kiss goodbye to our beloved constitution. I’m pro-Europe but Anti-EU. I wish to see the collapse of the EU and just go back to basics of being trading partners with fair rules.

@Ian EU law superceeding our laws , NOT our constitutions, that’s a very important disctinction. I means an EU directive overrides our law…sure…but it only does that in an area we CHOOSE to pool power in. That was the peoples democratic choice every single step of the way and we had eyes wide open and vigirous debates on it.

I’m getting really sick of the hysteria and EUSSR references they’re utter nonsense, the EU has it’s flaws but it’s not a big brother monster, it’s a tiny weak hobbled power structure, and it’s nothing near a federal state it does not even have a single leader yet.
I don’t even know why you would bring the EU into a my point, the EU has never engaged in Big Brother surveillance in fact the EU bodies have been the victims of it.
There are real and serious threats out there to our liberties and it does not help the public discourse when people begin ranting about the EU and the Bilderbergers and the bio chip implants all those separate things are phantom threats, warrentless spying, rendition etc are real tangible real life threats

There is nothing the EU is doing to force us into anything I stood proud about above, NOTHING.
They don’t spy, they don’t kidnap, they don’t torture…they do some dodgey trade deals…an issue…sure..they’re hypicrits on free trade…sure..but I can debate that with them in my suit with a mocha-chino in front of me nice and calm, I can’t do that with the CIA guy stuffing me into a van because I share the same name as someone on a watchlist and he got his wires crossed nor can I do it with the NSA as they hoover up who I been talking to on Facebook learning what secrets my friends have etc.
The EU irritates me, it does not WORRY me the way the NSA does.

A federal EU, would, IMO be a vast improvement over the monstrosity we have now, it would have more clearly defined powers, a single elected leader a clear constitution

Ryan… EU law supercedes our constitution. It is in our constitution. We’ve been lied to and misled by our own government and the EU to get the Lisbon treaty passed and the Stability Treaty. The EU cannot be trusted just the same as the US.

6° No provision of this Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State, before, on or after the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon, that are necessitated by the obligations of membership of the European Union referred to in subsection 5° of this section or of the European Atomic Energy Community, or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by—

i the said European Union or the European Atomic Energy Community, or institutions thereof,

ii the European Communities or European Union existing immediately before the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon, or institutions thereof, or

iii bodies competent under the treaties referred to in this section,

from having the force of law in the State.

Ryan,
I would imagine one Mr. Ian Bailey might disagree with your assertion that we live in some kind of blissful Utopia of modern justice that respects the right of any individual to be investigated in a fair and reasonable manner.
In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Ian Bailey wishes that he never ever set foot in Ireland – a country whose police force, up until two recent high profile resignations anyway, could happily do away with due process as long as they “got their man” on the basis that “Jaysus yeah, sure he has a guilty look in his eye – now just let’s do what we need to do to nail him”.

@ian I’m sorry but cop the fk on, we choose to give the EU more power it can’t b equated with a police state you are talking utter bollox.

As for the rest of you stop reading things I did not say.
Nowhere did I say we were perfect I just said unlike the us we are a free country.

IB got a trial, he was not kidnapped in middle of the night and tortured.
Your making childish nonsense comparasion

Ah, insults, first resort if the stupid.

Ah come on, I asked nicely!

Ok then!

Wesole some of us here have a habit of only posting on stories whos topics we know a lot about, some of us do know what were talking about.

One of the classic methods of attacking whistleblowers, be it in industry, politics whatever is to get people to diver their attention away from WHAT is being reported and cause the discussion to be about WHO is reporting it. Since nobody out there, absolutely nobody, has zero skeletons in their closet, or at the very least everyone has SOMETHING they’d not want made public, an embarrassing decision/habit/sexual fetish whatever, a mistake in their past…they then assassinate their character and their cause by association (”you’re not with HIM are you??”)

Forget about the made up charges on Assange, lets focus on what they reported, and it was highly disturbing criminality and unethical esponage by the worlds most powerful country. The US does not need to tap Merkels phone to protect national security, so what are they doing it for? To get economic information they can use in trade talks, that’s not what a national security agencys for, they should not be wasting their resources trying to get a slight edge in trade talks when they ought to be focused on terrorism and North Korea/Pakistans unsecured nukes etc

Wesole – no charges exist. and no deaths have been attributed to any leak.

Facts must be uncomfortable for you.

Wesole ; your words ;
“A traitorous, treacherous organisation ”
then …
“Ah, insults, first resort if the stupid.”

why do you come here and display your stupidity for the world to witness ?

You should note that the U.S. has just passed laws as a result of WikiLeaks exposure of their breaches of personal liberties ..

Im with Joe its all a false flag , you might think your looking at the Journal but in reality its all a US backed homsexual Jewish conspiracy to steal all of our red lemonade, thats whats REALLY happening , lucky we have people of Joes intelligence to foil these government agencies. Russia Today should give you a slot mate your hilarity is wasted here !

No-one foxes with our Red Lemonade …no-one !
Joe – to arms our red lemonade is under threat !
Russia today is at least an alternative ; I am off the opinion that if the shit hits the fan then Vladimir, Elizabeth , Francois, Barrack, Benjamin and a whole host of “leaders” and their inner circles will all go to a safe zone , play golf and not give a flying pig about the rest of us ; they keep meeting and shaking hands and smiling and they are supposed to hate each other , or more importantly we are supposed to follow their lead and be afraid of the big bad wolf which is always the other guy funnily enough and every single security agency exposed as being little more than a bunch of spying bigots trained on religious or loyalty grounds !
Probably just an excuse for some form of a perverted orgy every time they meet up for “high level” discussions ! Glorifed speech readers the lot of them !

Where do you get this idea being in NATO makes us the US’s buttboys?

France and Germany are in NATO, so were a dozen other countries that opposed US actions like the Iraq War, NATO is a mostly defensive alliance. The collective security thing is what the UN was set up for, one gets attacked, we all protect and help the one who was attacked and turn on the aggressor.

We have no air force, leaving us open to a dozen nightmare scenarios that we could not deal with, and asking for RAF help would kill vital time. A squad or two of jets would cost around 2-300 million. We are not willing to make room for that in our budget ATM, so we lay naked and open to say a hyjacked jet coming from the west attacking a nuclear plant on the Welsh coast and causing a Chernobyl right on our coast. Joining NATO gets us allied air patrols and that problem solved, under a similar deal to Iceland (who also didn’t have an air force). We’d have joint training missions that would be very beneficial for our military., Shannon could become a NATO air base that would be HUGE investment for the region esp if Cork naval base was expanded as well.
The other NATO members are condemning Israel so thats not a valid fear.

We ought have a referendum on NATO v REAL neutrality and make a CLEAR choice one way or the other. If we pick neutrality no foreign military forces ought to be on our soil and we need to invest in our OWN national defence the way Sweden does.

Thanks Ryan the last line explains it to me ; cheers dude ; sorry for yanking your chain ..
It’s just that we share different views on what NATO are .
Just one thing you might consider ; what other than “condemning” Israel have these Nato countries done ; have they moved for sanctions have they expelled diplomats ….
and one other thing ; you point to wales being a possible nuclear threat , let’s say it happens , do you not think that Shannon as a NATO hub would not be the same thing ?
To push Ireland to making money out of military is the same as loading the guns of Israel as far as I ma concerned …. you may not see it that way , but remember the ARMS RACE was the cause of two world wars , to be part of it is to invite our destruction i.m.o.

Being a NATO state, even if we had Cobh turn into a NATO naval base, and say Shannon and Baldonnel turn into NATO air bases would not necessarily make us a target.

I’ve no time for Islamic terrorism in any form, but their gripe is with the Americans and anyone who supports them in attacking muslem land (As they see it, the reality is more 3D of course), and we’d not be doing that, being in NATO does not = blind US support.
As OBL himself said ”why do you think we do not attack, for example Sweden?”.

The nuclear reactor example is something I worry about because it could cause unspeakable devestation, and in the aftermath of that kind of attack 200m on a squad or two of fighter jets would seem like small change, since the cleanup bill and costs of such an attack would run well into the billion.
Whereas, even if NATO bases here were attacked, they’d be attacked by conventional bombs, truck bombs etc, stuff infantry guarding the bases are quite capable of dealing with.

I think you need to stop dragging Israel into it, it’s a separate issue, unconnected. I would never say money/investment should be the SOLE reason for making a millitary decision or supporting millitary aciton, never, or that it should rank above the rights and wrongs, what I’m saying is that if we are going to join, then it would be an added bonus.
Again keep in mind NATO membership does not mean participation in every operation the US does, as a member we can block NATO missions too that could be used to halt agression as much as adding to it.

On the topic of making us a target, you might want to consider this. As you’ve already figured out I’m very into this kind of stuff, even more than sociology and economics which was my main area of study. In reading up on nuclear warfare I came across some declassified Soviet documents (declassified by exwarsaw pact states not Russia) and you may be surprised to learn that in the event of a nuclear attack on NATO at least 3 nukes were slated for Ireland. One on belfast, one on Derry and at least one on Dublin (there was discussion on lobbing two small ones in, one at the port one at the airport). Shannon was getting conventional bombs as was the navy base. Our neutrality was not gonna protect us. Why would they bother you might ask?
We’d aid in UK recovery post-strike, and they wanted the USSR to recover first. Simple. Brutal.

Tell that to the Spanish Ryan ; the bombing there wasn’t long getting Spanish troops withdrawn from the U.S. led war and no bombs there since a s far as I know .
I’m not “dragging Israel into it I am merely pointing out that it is very handy for America to be aligned to countries that say the right thing but who then do s.f.a. in real terms about it .
What I read from the Russian plans is this ; they did not see the west of Ireland as a threat … but turning Shannon into a Nato hub would change that battle plan would it not ?
America had military plans to invade Britain in the 20′s ……
with relation to your contention that Ireland would not necessarily join every operation ; we have soldiers stationed in Africa in direct contravention of our Constitution …so do you think our leaders are that savvy when it comes to keeping Ireland out of harm’s way ?
My preffered option is the Swedish model of Neutrality and I see no reason why we can’t ; The C.I..A are noted for suitcases of cash Ryan …I’ll say no more , you can have the last word if you want !
But I will finish with this very simple saying ;
If you play with fire expect to get burned ; “you” in the general ,excuse the pun, sense .

The Spanish were bombed because they were active supporters of the Iraq war…but being a member of NATO did not automatically mean you supported it.

How can you read that from the Russian plans? They do see us as a threat, they recognized the reality that we were an economic and political (if not millitary) strategic ally of the US and UK and would help them recover post-war. Remember we had a large agricultural surplus, lots of free space, the north-east wings blowing the UK fallout away from us…post-nuclear exchange we would have been one of the best off countries in Europe/western world, and we would have helped the US and UK recover, they knew that, so by nuking our main port-airport and attacking our two western atlantic bases, they removed that threat
Western bases would have been critical for Operation Reforger even before a NATO-WP war went nuclear, and even more so after for aid and resupply for Europe.

There is nothing in our constitution about neutrality, just that we can’t join a military alliance without a referendum. The African troops were peacekeepers in 90% of cases. The only exception was the Rangers we sent when a sharper tool was needed to pacify the rebels harassing innocent people, and they did an excellent job, p1ssing their pants at the mere mention of the Rangers coming.

I don’t understand this notion of being ALL on one side, regardless of the specifics, or ALL on another, if the facts and reality is split both ways. You have to be universally pro -US and anything that it does OR you have to b1tch about everything they do in every instance.
F__k that, I’ll go with the facts, the reality and the logic of each case by case.
NATO membership makes sense, big brother does not.
I can hold both opinions without conflict.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dx25oBZzVRIQ&ei=tUrYU4yDDK3b7AbJtYC4BQ&usg=AFQjCNHYivW5uzsFuwkgw-1zpv7TAko4zw
Ryan look at this – Obama’s speech in Poland …
Note three things ;
1. Lech Walesa recently called for Poland to unify with Germany.
2. John Paul is mentioned , pause , bell , catholics like bells.
3. Article 5 of Nato ..he reiterates the Alliance outlook that dragged the world into 2 world wars …
If we join NATO then according to Artcile 5 we must go to war if any other Nato member goes to war – you may be missing this point in your assessment of NATO …..
oh and finally he failed to mention that Poland had a “rendition programme “

Ryan ; Article 1 guarantees out neutrality through our commitment to traditions , the Lisbon treaty confirmed our neutrality and our corporation tax ..you may be too young to know this !
our Dail is very clear on our neutrality and yet you seem to keep making this point …I can’t understand why … but anyway you have your opinion and that is all it is – no offence but it is wrong and that’s not a criticism but a fact , you can ignore it if you wish !
One last point ; if you contend that Ireland is not neutral again then we will agree to differ , but I know we are and I don’t tell lies on such important things , not accusing you of being a liar for we all make mistakes !
I will get a paper copy of the Irish constitution that confirms it for you …the ammendments to guarantee this are not on the online one …..
remeber ryan when one uses common search engines ones one only searches about 1% of the interweb ! …if you rely solely on the internet then you are not getting the full picture !

Article 5 is only when a member is attacked and ti’s only been invoked once.
Once.

It’s not that if one goes to war we all go, it’s if one is ATTACKED we help them, that means for example after 9/11 we might have sent special forces to Afghanistan to help hunt for AlQaeda…hardly the most radical proposition in the world, sending 25-50 guys..

NATO kept western Europe safe from the spectre of Soviet attack from the 50s right up to the late 1980s. Without that we might have ended up with a v diffrent Europe to what we have now. Imagine the only real supermarkets being open only to the elite, shortages of bread and other essentials with a q around the block for it, not knowing if it will b there at the end of the que. Imagine you want to oppose the main party and for that can get sent to prison.
You think if we had taken the suggestions of the ant-war movement and removed the nukes from Europe, had France and the UK disarm their nukes, the US theatre nukes withdrawn, demobilizing the BOAR…that they’d not have tried to push inward and taken over? Of course they would, be real, any powerstructure esp one as fanatical as the USSR is going to take that opportunity.
NATO was and is a good thing.

world war 1 only started once and world war 2 only started once Ryan ; once is enough to catch a bullet for corporation mundial !
ryan did you look at Obama’s speech ?

Meds related insomnia has me up debating neutrality with a stranger at 3am..sigh…well….I’ve been in politics since I was a young teenager I remember Lisbon, and the lies, just fine.

The gaurentees with the Lisbon and NIce treaties were legally meaningless ‘clip ons’ nothing more.
Article 1 has no mention of foreign policy, there is another section that commits to pacific settlement of disputes, who we’d be in one with though I don’t know…
Article 29 opts out of the EU common defense…that’s it, there are no references to neutrality in the constitution.
The Lisbon treaty requires us to progressively improve our military capacity.

I keep making the point for one simple reason: NEUTRALITY IS NOT IN OUR CONSTITUTION, THE WORD NEUTRALITY DOES NOT APPEAR, NO OTHER WORDING THAT COULD BE INTERPRETED AS NEUTRALITY APPEARS EITHER.
I also keep making it because:
1. Contrary to what people think, we did not set out to be neutral from the get go, and the neutrality policy evolved from a childish distaste for being on the British side in anything.
2. We tried to set up a separate defense treaty with the US when NATO was created (for reason1) and were rebuffed, sore and hurting, like the geek knocked back from hanging out with the cool kids table we basically said ”oh yeh well…er…we totally wanted to be neutral anyway so there! we don’t need to be in your cool club!”
3. Our policy in WWII war born out of reason 1 as well, as well as hedging our bets to see if a defeated UK might be pressured into returning NI to us.

The policy has an inconsistent and poorly defined history, riddled with total hypocrisy and lacking any of the attributes (like a 3 branch millitary) normal neutrals have.

Not sure what the search engine thing means..
Our neutrality may be a (loose, half arsed) govt policy but it’s not in the constitution, it’s never been voted on, and it’s never been properly defined. The word neutrality is not in the constitution.

I don’t look at Obamas speechs, I judge him based on what he actually does, not what he says.

He talks a good game, but when you see how he governs you’d think he was a republican.

ryan for someone to be interested in politics and not interested in a breakdown in propaganda and how it works is somewhat strange i.m.o. but as you said it’s late ..anyway good night !

Dermot the arms race was largely the result of, not the cause of, two world wars.

It may not feel like it at the moment but the principal of mutually assured destruction has led to a period of relative stability between the world’s superpowers for the past 70 years. Yes, there was the cold war – now re-ignited – and a series of (relatively minor on a global scale) proxy wars, but each superpower knows what the consequences of all-out warfare would be.

Lizard people

Or you Ryan are not a paid member of a secret US agency that’s role is to discredit the facts about the above…:)

It’s a big story, a multinational cover up of corruption where an Aussie court is gagging foreign heads of government (where the hell do they think they have the power to do that???)

It’s just that after the NSA revelations everything else is going to seem less shocking, I’m personally glad it was not something to ‘out boom’ the NSA revelations, my faith in the worlds political leadership is already in the sewer since were living in the world the Robocop movies portrayed back in the 80s, something to ‘out boom’ the Snowden revelations would just make us all wanna open our wrists.

Ryan. The point I am making is Wikileaks have an Anti Western Agenda. All of their time and energy is aimed Westward. Never once have they even tried to expose what Russia or China are doing. It’s as if they didn’t exist. Yet both have massive Intelligence Apparatus, both do things that have a global impact but Wikileaks completely ignore them.
I read People on here crying about the NSA or GCHQ listening to their phone calls or reading their e mails but never give a thought to that if those two can do it so can the FSB or China’s MMS.

Mick consider this to your point above – why would china or Russia spy on us – we are no threat , but America sees us a vital cog in a NATO jigsaw – that’s the way I see it …
Maybe there’s a WikiLeaks for Russia and China as well .
Two points about Russia and China ….. Russia is in the Ukraine “defending its borders ” the Russians have dealt with first Napoleon and then Hitler ; who killed 20 million Russians – do you expect Russia ever to respect incursion into their sphere of influence after 20 million of their citizens were killed . The death toll in the Crimea was miniscule compared to other invasion s we have seen under the American flag.
China is doing a fairly good job at fighting corruption in its Civil Service .
Are Russia and China babes in the woods – not for one second but the West is no beauty either !

No point in replying to Mick, he can’t see it won’t see it, the blatant hypocrisy of a nation that claims to be the greatest on the planet, the protector of the world against all evils, with it’s plundering of nations, bully boy tactics, subversiveness, duplicity, operation gladios: propagation of terrorist groups, and that’s not even looking at the usurping of it’s own people, list could go on and on, the America that we all grew up believing to be this beacon of everything that’s good in this world was long infiltrated by some very sick people, Mick knows this but he couldn’t give two sh!ts he loves it, time for the reset button.

I think the rest of the world sees the hypocricy of the US, but does that mean that human rights abuses by China, Russia and others shouldn’t also be highlighted?

Mick is right about wikileaks having an anti-US agenda though. Case in point – how the “Collateral Murder” video was edited to deliberately withhold some of the context and mislead the viewer.

Dermot. Do you think all of the Chinese and Russian Espionage is only about Politics. Ireland is one of the world leaders in Pharmaceutical R&D we are also up there with the big boys in IT R&D. The Chinese have probably the world biggest Hacking program going for industrial espionage. You think the Russians aren’t far behind?
Look at Snowden. Who did he run to first. China. He thought that they would take him in set him up in a nice villa somewhere like Shanghai. They took him in took all the info he had and tossed him away like a used condom. So he ran to Russia. And you can bet the FSB got everything the Chinese got. And the only reason they didn’t toss him out to was just to piss of the US.
Then look at Assange. He set up a vulnerable mentally ill young man in the full knowledge of what was going to happen to him when he was caught. But Assange didn’t give a shi t. And where is he now. Holed up in the Ecuadorian Embassy after jumping bail and costing people that thought he was a friend their home because they put it up as collateral. Assange only ever cared about the glory of Assange and his personal likes and dislikes. And because he had some hair up his arse about the US and the West that is what Wikileaks was set up to aim at.
.

@Mick the point is CHina and Russia were known to be police states, the US was supposed to be a beacon of light. liberty and republicanism, not a big brother police state.

As to the Snowden point I’d encourage you to look past the filter and actually read Greenwalds book, No Place To Hide, and you will discover the real reason Snowden choose Hong Kong, cos it was autonomous from the Chinese govt and had a history of protecting people from the powerful.

You are factually incorrect about the information ,flat out, they did not take one iota of information out of Snowden, he never met with any Chinese intel people, and every single iota of data he brought with him was NSA-standard encrypted which the Russians can’t break nor can the Chinese, he even invented some new ways to encrypt them himself as a double protection, also bringing laptops that don’t connect to the net so there was no way they could even get the coded data and work on it later.
So that’s just wrong, you don’t get to have your own facts, facts are independent.

Wikileaks does not have an anti-US agenda, they have an anti hypocrisy agenda, and thats the distinction, it’s no great shock to us that the Russian regime is abhorrant, and we didn’t need leaks to tell us that…it WAS a shock to learn it about the US, the US were meant to be the good guys.

Did Assange set up the soldier or did the soldier go to him ?
Mick as far as I’m concerned it’s the citizen of every country against maniacal control freaks they are each as bad as the other , but if I ma “anti-American ” , a which I ma not then it is just that they are influencing our Government more it would seem and don’t worry I see Conor Lenihan working in Russia ….
Mick America in principle is the best of them , their constitution is a masterpiece but not unlike our own those who are mean to use it as a guide are way off the reservation when it comes to its application .
Mick I may be wrong but it seems all these leaders exist to cause a sense of confusion so that you and I and more like us will discuss it all day every day and not do anything about it !
Anyway have a good one and watch out for the leperacains ! ….I saw Darby O’Gill for the first time over the Christmas and I can’t get the little fellas out of my head and they riding around on horses the size of cats ; the funniest thing I have seen in ages !

This is what they do with a whistleblower…make it about the personality not the cause. That is why Snowden does no interviews on TV networks, he didn’t want it to be about him, but the debate on how far we want the national security state to go.

Lets talk about the issue, the personalities are not important, I don’t care if Assange gang raped 100 chimpanzes or Snowden is poly-sexual and a secret freemason, it’s the issue and the facts that matter to me.

“China and Russia are known to be Place states”
So that makes it ok then? Give them a free pass. Don’t hold them up for pubic scrutiny is that it?
How are they ever going to learn if nobody chastises them. The thing a Police State fears the most. Is the World knowing what they are at.

A three term elected one, someone obviously thought she was doing something right.

Still a c u n t though.