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Niall Carson

Opinion Support for suicidal woman was complicated, not assisted, by abortion legislation

The legislation introduced last year has proved itself to be barbaric and unworkable.

ENDA KENNY’S ABORTION law has fallen at the first hurdle, and has left a tiny baby, born to a vulnerable and distressed mother, struggling for life in a neo-natal ICU.

This is an appalling situation, and the compassionate support required for the young woman involved was complicated, not assisted, by the abortion legislation which has now shown itself to be barbaric and unworkable.

Last year, medical experts and pro-life advocates argued that the legislation would lead to exactly this scenario, where an obstetrician, knowing that evidence-based medicine did not support abortion as a treatment for suicidality, was forced into an impossible situation of deliberately delivering a baby prematurely.

Now the unthinkable has happened. Everyone knows that prematurity can have very serious and severe consequences for a baby, including brain damage, blindness and long-term developmental problems. This baby is extremely premature, and the risks of serious problems are very high. The Master of the Rotunda, Dr Sam Coulter Smith, has commented that the problems the baby now faces are ‘enormous’.

Added to that potential outcome is the dreadful prospect of the child being taken into care by the HSE, a body which, as report after grim report, has shown, does not serve our most vulnerable children well.

The fact is that doctors dealing with complex and difficult circumstances arising in pregnancy have been placed in an impossible position by the new law. Where the outcome, as in this case, is a living child is the doctor liable to be sued, as surely the State must be, by the child who may be physically or mentally impaired because of forced prematurity?

Is a mother who sought to have her child’s life ended also entitled to sue if the baby has lived? Far from providing clarity, the law has caused more confusion and more difficulties for doctors, mothers and for their babies.

We have seen how other jurisdictions have learned to deal with the nightmare scenarios that can arise following the legalisation of abortion. In Britain for example, our nearest neighbour, unborn children who have survived abortion have simply been left to die.

It is to be hoped that the young mother at the centre of this case will continue to receive the ongoing support and care which reports indicate she so badly needs. Many of the potential threats to her security and peace of mind have nothing to do with abortion at all, but should prompt the government to take action on how asylum seekers are treated in this country.

As we previously saw in the tragic case of Miss C, who we later learned had been brought by the State for an abortion without her full knowledge, this young woman’s distress is being used to further an agenda of abortion on demand. Abortion campaigners would not be remotely satisfied with a law allowing abortion in certain circumstances: they want abortion legalised as a matter of ‘choice’, freely available and paid for by the taxpayer.

It has also been revealing to read the comments on social media from abortion supporters – and from taxpayer-funded bodies such as the National Women’s Council – who have failed to express even a shred of concern or compassion for the tiny child now battling for life in a NICU. The strongly implied message running through their posts is that their preferred outcome would be if this baby were dead. It is an extraordinary callous position.

We would do well to recall the testimony of some of the most senior medical experts in the country to an Oireachtas Committee last year when the legislation was under discussion. They agreed that, in their collective experience, they had not come across a single case where an abortion would have been the appropriate treatment for suicidal thoughts in pregnancy.

They warned that if a woman was ‘profoundly depressed and mentally ill she would be advised not to make major life decision at that time’, and advised that ‘the notion of doing a emergency termination at that time was completely obsolete for a woman who was extremely suicidal’. Psychiatrists also advised that the treatment for suicidality is to make sure that women are safe, that they have appropriate support, medication and psychological treatment.

The experts were ignored – and the responsibility for this appalling outcome now lies squarely with Enda Kenny who pushed through this legislation against all the evidence. Given that the appalling scenario envisaged by critics has immediately become a reality, an Taoiseach should now act to repeal possibly the worst piece of legislation that has ever been rushed and coerced through the legislature.

Niamh Ui Bhriain is a spokesperson for the Life Institute.

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219 Comments
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    Mute D
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    Aug 18th 2014, 2:46 PM

    You failed to mention that the teenager was raped and she requested a termination at 8 weeks! Her request would have been permitted everywhere else in Europe.

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    Mute Emilio
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:24 PM

    @D

    Facts? How dare you mention FACTS!? This is a YD faith-head talking here. Facts do not matter.

    223
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    Mute Sailtee
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:51 PM

    She is correct, the buck stops at Enda Kenny for this appalling situation and abuse of this baby’s rights. The insistence from the pro-aborts on the only good outcome being a dead baby is actually seriously creepy and horrible.

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    Mute Nick Beard
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:55 PM

    Because “pro-aborts” protest every happy birth. Even of our own children. Fact.

    The issue couldn’t possibly be the treatment of this woman, it’s just that we want to meet our quota of “dead babies.” Please do feel free to use that argument in a future referendum.

    225
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    Mute Sailtee
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:05 PM

    Are you happy the baby is alive so? That’s good to hear. Do you only support early abortions or right up until birth?

    40
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    Mute Nick Beard
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:10 PM

    I’m first and foremost upset and outraged that this woman was ignored until the point of viability then forced to have a c-section. Aren’t you? Because you didn’t mention it in your comment. If she had been able to access an abortion at 8 weeks, when she originally sought one, it would have been an early abortion, well within the first trimester.

    As you acknowledge, an early abortion would have been preferable. If the government hadn’t delayed, she could have had one.

    223
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    Mute Nick Beard
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:12 PM

    Also, Saltee, I take your comment to mean that you believe an early abortion is somehow better than a later one? That’s a bit off Youth Defence talking points – don’t you all believe that an abortion at 2 weeks is just as horrible as 30 weeks?

    Or have you come to realise that most people disagree with you? A law in Ireland which allowed medical abortions in 12 weeks would be a lot harder to argue against.

    142
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    Mute Nigerian King
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:28 PM

    D ,

    Just because somebody else is doing something does not make that something right

    If other Countries in the EU have water charges , that does not make water charges right

    if other Countries in the EU have property taxes , that does not make property taxes right

    if some other Countries in the EU have Abortion , that does not make Abortion right

    Its up to the Individual or Country to decide whats best for them and their Society , to follow blindly , just because another country is doing something is childish , reckless and irresponsible behaviour

    58
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    Mute Sailtee
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:45 PM

    So are you happy that the baby is alive? Do you hope she’ll make it out of the NICU? And do support abortion until birth. Answer the question.

    40
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    Mute Nick Beard
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:49 PM

    So abortion at an early stage is more acceptable than abortion a week before birth? Tsk, tsk, Sailtee, what would David Quinn say to that? Here I was thinking you considered it to be just as horrific an hour after implantation! All of my illusions ruined.

    Also, how many comments can you make where you don’t even mention the woman who was forced to undergo a medical procedure against her will?

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    Mute mary carey
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:55 PM

    I’m sad for the baby. Who has an enormous task ahead just to survive physically. Who – at this point, and at the point of conception – is not & was not wanted.
    I am sad for the mother who pushed for termination when any awareness of what was happening by the embryo would not have been a factor. I am sad that she will be torn between hating and loving something which, on it’s own is completely innocent, but which is a product of something disgusting & against all human rights.
    This whole thing makes me sad. Sorry if that’s a little un-opinionated for this forum. But the fact is: the baby is here now. No amount of arguing about this case will change the fact that ther is a massive struggle ahead for both mother and infant…

    156
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    Mute Sailtee
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:04 PM

    So I take it that you don’t want the baby to live. What a horrible outlook. And you support abortion until birth. I presume that’s for any reason at all? Janey, you are v extreme

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    Mute Martina Murray
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:09 PM

    ” is not & was not wanted.” Every child is wanted by someone even when not wanted by his or her natural mother and/or father or biological family.that is why there are couples willing to adopt.Possibly though, if the child is disabled, the chances of adoption are lower.so “unwanted” not true, no child is a mistake either before or after birth.

    46
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    Mute Nick Beard
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:11 PM

    So at what point does abortion become unacceptable, Sailtee?

    And in the vein of Niamh, you’re ignoring what people are actually saying – that the way this woman was treated was heartbreaking. As pointed out to you facetiously, no one is baying for blood, we’re angry that this woman was ignored until she went on a hunger strike, then forced into a procedure. You seem to be totally ignoring that and deliberately confusing that with calls that all abortions should take place as late as possible (rather than listening to what I said – abortions should happen as early as possible, something denied to this woman.)

    I guess it’s easier to argue with a straw man, but you look a bit silly and by the looks of it, you’re not convincing anyone. And who’s Janey?

    87
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    Mute D
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:11 PM

    Nigerian king
    I find it disturbing that you compare this case to water charges and property tax! This issue is relevant to women in this country who are pregnant with unfortunate circumstances!

    97
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    Mute Joanna
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:19 PM

    So you’d prefer a deformed and suffering baby?

    14
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    Mute Martina Murray
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:25 PM

    an abortion would also be horrendous treatment of this young woman.The claim that it would be a cure for her mental state,is not true.

    32
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    Mute Reality Cheque
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:27 PM

    Martina Murray,

    Firstly, there are plenty of children in state care who would be delighted to be adopted by a family who would love and cherish them. Why are these children not being adopted by these couples, do they only love babes, and “healthy” babies at that? Secondly, are you actually suggesting that a woman who was raped should be forced to remain pregnant to provide a child for another family? Do you have any compassion for this woman who has been brutalised by a rapist and then by the state at all?

    110
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    Mute Ciarán Masterson
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:37 PM

    @D

    Maybe the medical experts who were on the abortion panel were unable to make the decision on her case sooner because of pressure of work; they probably have dozens or even hundreds of cases to deal with.

    8
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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:51 PM

    Abortion is not a cure for suicidal feelings. Otherwise we could administer abortions to anyone who felt suicidal and stop them feeling that way.

    To be honest anyone who tries to make that claim is a moron. No one ever claimed this was how the legislation was supposed to work.

    If the pregnancy has caused sufficient distress to the woman that she is considering killing herself rather than continuing the pregnancy – THEN she is constitutionally entitled to an abortion (allegedly – this case shows that not be be the case in practice).

    What’s your suggestion for a woman who would actually rather die than continue her pregnancy?

    59
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    Mute Reality Cheque
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:11 PM

    Ciarán Masterson,

    If that is the case, then the guidelines clearly do not work. Your argument reinforces the point that it is impractical, not to say inhumane, for a woman to be assessed by a panel of three doctors. In this case three doctors did certify that she was suicidal as a result of an unwanted pregnancy and yet she was no able to avail of her constitutional rights and receive the abortion she was legally entitled to.

    46
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    Mute Getyercoat
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:31 PM

    What is the cure, Martina? Do you know the stats around suicides in pregnant women, and new mothers?

    27
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    Mute Maureen Cullen
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:58 PM

    most women in ireland who find themselves in crisis pregancies, and who feel suicidal, travel to england for their abortion, this poor young girl, because of her immigration status could not, what a shame for her, that ireland was her country off choice,

    50
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    Mute M Bowe
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    Aug 18th 2014, 7:49 PM

    Why did it take 4 wks for this 3 person panel to even be convened, when timing is crucial in these circumstances. Then they take a further 13 to 15 weeks to make a decision. A referendum was held and passed by the people and if these people cannot work under the requires time frame they should stand aside and take no further part in these panels.

    38
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    Mute Ciarán Masterson
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    Aug 18th 2014, 8:22 PM

    @Reality Cheque

    It’s possible that she was mentally ill and thus not in a position to make a rational decision.

    7
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    Mute Reality Cheque
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    Aug 18th 2014, 8:50 PM

    Ciarán Masterson,

    Ah, I see, a woman is forcibly impregnated by a rapist: a pregnancy over which she had no choice. But because she becomes suicidal as a result of being forcibly impregnated, we should ignore her choices and wishes over what happens to her body?

    So, what we do with a woman who is raped and violated is we should violate her and ignore her choices again. How can you justify her being coerced into a C section if she is unable to make a rational decision? In that case, her rights were violated a third time.

    I am sorry, but that logic does not stand up. The woman asked for an abortion when she found out she was pregnant from rape. She could not have an abortion in Ireland because, unbelievably, it is illegal to terminate a pregnancy resulting from a rape. We have legislation in place that provides her with a right to abortion if she is certified as suicidal as a result of pregnancy. But, no, this woman could not avail of her constitutional right to have an abortion even though she was deemed suicidal. What happened was that she was forced to remain pregnant, against her wishes, forcibly hydrated and then coerced into a C section.

    50
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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 10:10 PM

    It’s “possible” that she was mentally ill. But it’s not certain.
    As has been explained, mental illness is not prerequisite for suicidal intent. All someone needs is whatever set of unfortunate events leads them there.

    18
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    Mute Ciarán Masterson
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    Aug 19th 2014, 1:23 AM

    @Reality Cheque

    So you think that doctors deserve to be hauled over the coals for saving the lives of the mother and the child? The C-section meant that the mother to wait longer to give birth. The fact that the child was delivered early meant that the mother’s ordeal was brought to an end.

    You’re essentially saying that it’s a crime to save the life of a child.

    6
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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 19th 2014, 1:48 AM

    Ciaran,
    I’m struggling to make sense of part of that comment – the whole bit about the c section and timing.. Could I possibly ask you to try rephrasing that so I can better understand what you mean?

    9
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    Mute Reality Cheque
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    Aug 19th 2014, 9:35 AM

    Ciarán,

    This woman did not want to be forced to carry a pregnancy that was the result of a rape. She was so distressed at having to do so she became suicidal and went on hunger strike. She was forcibly hydrated and forced to remain pregnant against her will and this really, really concerns me. In fact it enrages me. Can you try to consider this woman’s distress?

    The real problem in this scenario seems to be timing: why was this woman not offered the possibility to terminate this pregnancy in its early stages, as it seems she requested? Please do not twist my words. What I am saying is that this woman should have been able to exercise her rights so that a situation like this would never occur.

    14
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    Mute Ciarán Masterson
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    Aug 19th 2014, 11:20 AM

    @Shanti

    The carrying out of the C-section reduced the length of her ordeal, i.e. not having to wait until the normal duration of pregnancy had passed and also not having to “push”, which is what would have happened if the birth was to take place vaginally.

    2
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    Mute Ciarán Masterson
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    Aug 19th 2014, 11:24 AM

    @Reality Cheque

    The doctors who treated her are not responsible for the failure of the abortion panel experts to make a decision on her case at an early stage. It was too late for her doctors to carry out an abortion. What do you think they should have done, let her starve and dehydrate?! C-sections take place all the time. The sanctity of life is more important than worrying about having a scar on the abdomen.

    I would welcome another abortion referendum but it’s not going to happen in the near future, not on this side of the next general election anyway.

    3
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    Mute Reality Cheque
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    Aug 19th 2014, 1:10 PM

    Ciarán Masterson,

    Let me point out to you, that what I said was the delay that occurred in this woman’s treatment is unacceptable and resulted in a forced C section.

    You say “C sections take place all the time.” That is true, I have had one myself, but it would not be the preferred way to give birth. It is a procedure that should be performed because birth cannot happen vaginally for medical reasons. Let me tell you very clearly that the scar on your abdomen after a C section is the least of your concerns. A C Section involves major abdominal surgery, the stomach and womb are cut into, both of which take a very long time to heal. Major surgery requires months to fully recover from. C Section, in this girl’s case, was totally unnecessary, invasive and coerced. This woman’s enforced pregnancy should have been managed properly at the outset and her wishes should have been heeded.

    9
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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 19th 2014, 4:16 PM

    Wow, Ciaran, this was already explained to you – of the two – pushing is always preferable, from a medical standpoint.

    A woman can be up and on her feet much quicker after a vaginal birth than a c section – with a c section there’s 6 weeks at least healing time.

    The ONLY time c sections are “preferred” is by celebrities with more money than sense opting for a tummy tuck after their pregnancy. It’s not good for the woman and it sure as hell isn’t better for the baby.
    By being removed via incision the baby loses the benefit of having the amniotic fluid expelled from their lungs from the compression in the birth canal – meaning they are higher risk for respiratory problems, they also don’t get to pick up the flora that will become their gut flora – leading to decreased immune function.
    To start with..

    You appear to have little to no concept of what the difference is, and despite me explaining to you on another story that concern has been raised over Ireland performing too many C sections you keep making this hair brained assertion that only someone who hasn’t much experience with the subject could ever dream of making.

    C section is not “preferable”, even terminations carried out for medical reasons around this stage of pregnancy are done by induction because vaginal birth is far less risky than a section.

    6
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    Mute Joy Herron
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    Aug 19th 2014, 8:33 PM

    You implying Nick is unhappy that the baby was born alive because she was denied an early abortion is like me implying you are happy that girl was raped because it resulted in a baby being born.

    Personally I’d prefer if that young girl was never raped.
    failing that that she hadnt become pregnant as a result.
    failing that that she had of gotten emergency contraception to prevent implantation.
    failing that that she had of been granted a medical abortion at the earliest juncture

    The government have managed to upset both the prolife and prochoice groups equally with this f~~ked up legislation.

    11
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    Mute John Everyman
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    Aug 18th 2014, 2:44 PM

    A direct question for Ms. Ui Bhriain:

    Why should a woman be forced to remain pregnant against her will, especially since no form of contraception is infallible and intercourse does not equate to consent to pregnancy?

    291
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    Mute Dave Obreen
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:14 PM

    John,

    why should an unborn child be forced to die against their will ????????

    70
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    Mute Reality Cheque
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:31 PM

    Dave Obreen,

    Can you explain to me how an unborn foetus has “will”?

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    Mute Nick Beard
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:40 PM

    Because Dave is psychic. I’m not sure what kind of relationship he has with his mother (sorry, mammy, I think you should have been forced to have me even if you were raped and suicidal), but there are plenty of people who would be horrified at the thought of their mothers being forced through that. I love my mother and the idea that she’d be forced through that would break my heart.

    But not Dave or the foetus he psychically understands?

    97
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    Mute Nigerian King
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:43 PM

    Reality cheque ,

    if someone is too weak and vulnerable and cannot speak for themselves , they need someone to act as a voice for them and defend their interests.

    This is what the pro life people do , speak out for the unborn and defend their interests agains the Abortion Industry that wants to make money out of making sure the unborn have no voice at all

    45
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    Mute Dave Obreen
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:49 PM

    Reality ,

    do you really think an unborn child would choose to die if given a choice

    38
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    Mute Paddy Hannigan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:55 PM

    @nick. I pointed that out the other day . I meerly said given the choice between never have been born in the first place or knowing that my mother was put through a situation like this then I would choose never to have been born.

    I was basicaly told I must have mental issues by some of the anti choice crowd.

    They are quite happy to put other peoples lives on the line because of their beliefs.Whether the other person shares those beliefs or not.

    That is the bottom line of their argument.

    87
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    Mute Reality Cheque
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:56 PM

    Dave,

    The fault in your argument is this: the unborn foetus is not capable of choosing anything, its brain is not yet developed enough to think conceptually. You may not like that fact, but it is a fact. The woman who was (it seems) raped, forefully fed and seemingly strongarmed into having a C section CAN think and choose. Her choices were completely ignored. Would you care to address how her choices mean less than a foetus that cannot think?

    99
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    Mute Reality Cheque
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:59 PM

    Nigerian King,

    Nobody is stopping you from expressing your advocacy for the unborn foetus. I defend the rights of a woman who has been prevented from choosing for herself, having (it is claimed) been submitted to rape. Do you want to keep rape victims forcibly pregnant? You also lose any rational line of argumentation when you start speaking about the “abortion industry”. Tosh!

    86
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    Mute Martina Murray
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:29 PM

    except that whenever people are expressing suicidal ideation or clinically depressed as this woman reportedly was, they are not of sound judgement.Plus no can can confirm or deny whether or not she was raped.Plus a pregnancy where the mother is mentally ill is still a physically healthy pregnancy and therefore not actually a danger to the life or health of the mother.Abortion is not a cure for a womans/mothers suicide ideation.

    27
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    Mute Reality Cheque
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:38 PM

    Martina Murray,

    Your lack of compassion for this woman is astonishing. Your first line of argument is to doubt the woman: doubt she was raped and doubt her choice not to be pregnant as a result of that rape? You also trot out the usual line about abortion not being a cure for suicidal ideation. Nobody claims this to be the case, but don’t let that prevent you from throwing straw men into the debate. What is at issue is whether her unchosen, and probably forced, pregancy led her to become suicidal. Your distrust of women is horrifying.

    87
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    Mute Nick Beard
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:51 PM

    So basically, Martina thinks that no woman has ever been suicidal solely due to pregnancy.

    I would suggest she research statistics on pregnant women committing suicide in the UK before the Abortion Act.

    66
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    Mute Reality Cheque
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:55 PM

    Exactly Nick

    37
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    Mute Paddy Hannigan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:57 PM

    Why would any woman in Ireland who suffers depression or sucidal thoughts willingly present herself for treatment if she finds out she is pregnant after hearing about this clusterf*ck ?

    She might as well save herself the trauma and book a flight while she can.

    Having a mental illness does not automatically remove your right to bodily integrity.

    I’m sure there will be woman who will suffer in silence because of the fear of something like this happening to them.

    65
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    Mute thetruth
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:00 PM

    Well keep.your outdated nonsense to yourself Martina. I have great joy in telling you that if and when this comes to a vote, your folk are gonna lose and badly

    53
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    Mute Bridget
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:09 PM

    That’s why some people like to defend those who can’t defend themselves

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    Mute John Burke
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    Aug 18th 2014, 7:14 PM

    Hi reality, horrible situation and difficult social situation but has it not been shown that babies in the womb have sleep paterns and feel pain?

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    Mute M Bowe
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    Aug 18th 2014, 7:38 PM

    So a weak vulnerable non national woman, in a strange country and culture, impregnated by rape and believing she has the “devil” growing within her. Who is well capable of speaking for herself has her voice and wishes ignored and is forced to continue with this pregnancy for a further 13 weeks after requesting termination. Forced to undergo an invasive medical operation she did not freely opt for. For to know she has Bourn this child now. Forced to deal with physical scars on top of the mental scaring the rape has undoubtably left.
    This is grotesque in so many levels.

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    Mute Reality Cheque
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    Aug 18th 2014, 7:40 PM

    John Burke,

    This is a slightly different question to the issues of will, choice and conceptual thinking raised above. There is no consensus on when a foetus in the can feel pain. A study from University College London in 2011 concluded that a foetus in the womb can distinguish painful stimuli from general touch at around 35-37 weeks gestation – just before an infant would normally be born.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 8:16 PM

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1440624/
    “Conclusion
    The neural circuitry for pain in fetuses is immature. More importantly, the developmental processes necessary for the mindful experience of pain are not yet developed. An absence of pain in the fetus does not resolve the question of whether abortion is morally acceptable or should be legal. Nevertheless, proposals to inform women seeking abortions of the potential for pain in fetuses are not supported by evidence. Legal or clinical mandates for interventions to prevent such pain are scientifically unsound and may expose women to inappropriate interventions, risks, and distress. Avoiding a discussion of fetal pain with women requesting abortions is not misguided paternalism but a sound policy based on good evidence that fetuses cannot experience pain.”

    No. Foetuses cannot feel pain according to available medical evidence.

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    Mute Emilio
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    Aug 18th 2014, 8:24 PM

    Uuuuh, facts. Scary facts. I’ll hold onto my feelings and crosses thank you very much…

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    Mute Daisy Chainsaw
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    Aug 18th 2014, 2:58 PM

    It’s an appalling situation because the likes of the Life “Institute” and their prurient obsession with other people’s sex lives.

    The psychiatric experts were ignored by an obstetrician who compounded a rape victim’s trauma by ensuring she was denied the medical treatment agreed by her doctors concerning her suicidal state. In order to satisfy the criteria for the 8th amendment, she was force fed and subject to a forced birth.

    For you to say that her mental state have “nothing to do with abortion at all” is typical of the lies pedded by “Institutes” of your ilk. This young rape victim was prepared to die rather than have to have a baby.

    The 8th amendment needs to be stricken from our constitution and the likes of the “Life” “Institute” needs to stay out of my vagina.

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    Mute Martina Murray
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:19 PM

    pro life people are absolutely NOT obsessed with peoples sex lives, they are concerned with the right to life of preborn infants.

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    Mute Matt Connolly
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:35 PM

    The obstetrician did not ignore the psychiatric experts – by the time they actually sat down to review this poor woman’s case an alternative to aborting had materialised and he/she was bound to take the option where both lives could be saved, otherwise he/she would be dabbling in the area of death by necessity which is a legal minefield in every legal jurisdiction.
    The real issue here is why did it take so long from the victim presenting herself to the 3 person panel reviewing her situation. If her situation was actioned immediately, the only outcome would have been to abort. One tin-foil-hat-wearing theory is that this delay happened on purpose to cause the end result. Personally I think it is more likely to be yet another clusterfcuk by the always-inept HSE. And whomever dropped the ball on this one will most likely get a/another promotion.

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    Mute Tim Stephen Hendy
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:46 PM

    Completely agree with Matt. The idea that this was some deliberate attempt to remove a woman’s rights is an unnecessary explanation for something that is more easily accounted for by bureaucratic blundering. It may be that it’s an inevitable consequence of an unworkable law, or, it may spur the authorities into making sure it never happens like this again.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:56 PM

    It was actually one of the problems the pro choice side had pointed out in the drafting of this bill – remember all that stuff about the shortage of prenatal psychiatrists and the like?

    It was joked that the amount of time it would take to be given a decision would probably exceed the gestational term.. I think most people were hoping that the urgency of this sort of situation would have necessitated a bit of speeding up.

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    Mute Jack Ripper
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    Aug 18th 2014, 2:47 PM

    I am working on the solution. As soon as I complete my time machine there will be a portal available offering free passage back to 1950 for Niamh Ui Bhriain and others who wish to live in that time.

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    Mute Emilio
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:24 PM

    I think you misspelled 1650.

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    Mute Jack Ripper
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:46 PM

    My mistake!

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    Mute Dave Obreen
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:17 PM

    Jack Ripper,

    if something is wrong , its wrong , regardless of what year it is

    taking another life is wrong regardless of wether its 1950 BC , 1950 AD or 2014 AD

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    Mute Ben Dover
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:23 PM

    It’s wrong to force a baby out of a woman’s womb ..

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    Mute Jack Ripper
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:32 PM

    “taking another life is wrong regardless of wether its 1950 BC , 1950 AD or 2014 AD”

    Of course, that’s why we don’t eat meat or chop down trees…. oh wait!

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    Mute Jack Ripper
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:41 PM

    BTW was slavery wrong when Jesus condoned it?

    Was killing people, rape and slavery ok when God ordered his chosen people to destroy entire cities and keep the virgin girls for themselves?

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    Mute Nope
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:44 PM

    ‘Taking another life is wrong’

    Well then Dave, really hope you’re a vegan or is it just what you choose is life?

    See the right to choose feels good doesn’t it? Now we need to give up this nonsense and grant it to women, I’m sick of listening to other people’s opinions on what I can do with my body

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    Mute Dave Obreen
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:09 PM

    Nope ,

    so in your eyes a pigs life is just as important as your childs life ?

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    Mute Nope
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:31 PM

    A life is a life is a life.

    People, pigs, dogs, spiders, cows, ants are all living are they not? I just find it so hypocritical that people call themselves pro-life when all they really are are pro-human-foetus.

    People choose to believe what is life and what isn’t. If you accept that you have choices to do that then you should accept that women want that choice too.

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    Mute Jack Ripper
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:00 PM

    In fact, many animals are sentient beings who can think, know they exist and that have feelings and emotions. The same cannot be said for an early-stage human foetus.

    If it is bad to kill living things, surely it is far worse to kill a living sentient thing than a non-sentient thing?

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    Mute Nope
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:14 PM

    Jack, unfortunately that much logical thought is too much of a stretch for some people.

    We can only hope they get there one day

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    Mute Emilio
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:44 PM

    Or they stop voting because they have passed Away. All the same to me.

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    Mute Bridget
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    Aug 18th 2014, 11:36 PM

    Nice

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    Mute Rosanne Deegan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 2:48 PM

    Surely this is an outcome that pro-life should welcome.
    An abortion was prevented and a child has lived.

    Logically, if an unborn life has primacy, every other right is secondary.

    This inevitably means that any woman who threatens to have an abortion (& who cannot be convinced to change her mind through persuasion) *must* be detained & forced to bring the child to term.

    That is what primacy means.
    Pro-life campaigners should say that & welcome outcomes like this.

    It is the only logical, inevitable conclusion of their demand for primacy.

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    Mute TheLoneHurler
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    Aug 18th 2014, 11:15 PM

    Why would anyone welcome a very premature birth that seriously risks the quality of life for the child?

    Your logic that “if an unborn life has primacy, every other right is secondary” is incorrect. The life of the unborn is equal to the life of the mother, except when a case arises that there is a serious risk to the life of the mother, then the mother’s right to life will be prioritised.

    That is what the law said up until Jan 1st 2014 – stop trying to spread mis-information.

    Since 01.01.2014 the law has been amended to include suicidal intention.

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    Mute Aoife Nic
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    Aug 18th 2014, 2:57 PM

    The logical outcome of the pro-life / pro-criminalisation of abortion position is that pregnant women are forced to continue pregnancies against their wills, incarcerated if they do not wish to do so, and have every facet of their bodily integrity compromised in order to keep the foetus alive against their will. This woman’s story is the logical conclusion. It’s horrendous.

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    Mute P O' Neill
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:09 PM

    I will never understand why and how a government has the right to legislate for what someone does/does not want to do with their own body. And this panel of experts is akin to the Spanish Inquisition. Can’t imagine what that woman and baby went through. Why should anyone have the right to dictate what happens to someone else’s body and health. People must put their bigoted views and stubborn ideologies to one side and mind their own God damn business!

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    Mute Bridget
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:23 PM

    Exactly why should Someone else have the power over someone else’s life.

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    Mute Ryan Carroll
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:36 PM

    The argument they make, and how they get around the personal sovereignty / harm principle argument, is they say they are protecting another human life.
    By fudging the issue and framing it as when ”life” begins (a plant is a life) they stop you considering when ‘personhood’ begins, which is the real question and that’s why most countries define the abortion limit at around 12 or so weeks when the fetus cannot survive outside the mother.

    You’re living in a country that’s never had much respect for personal freedom though, we were arresting people for being gay right up to 1993

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:59 PM

    Caveat
    In order for it to be considered a life that you but out of – it must be capable of existing without a placenta attached..

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    Mute Joe Travers
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:25 PM

    Bridget. If you don’t want an abortion don’t have one. But don’t tell the women in my life that they should adhere to your opinion. That’s for them to choose. Religious nut jobs have done enough to this country as it is. And destroyed more kids lives while they were at it. So where we’re those kids rights then. Bunch of self serving hypocrites. Evil.

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    Mute Bridget
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    Aug 18th 2014, 8:47 PM

    Abortion is not just a religious issue.. No one bringing religion in here but yourself

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    Mute Joe Travers
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    Aug 18th 2014, 9:02 PM

    RCC brings it seen as they are the number 1 lobby group for the pro lifers. I just want a person to choose, according with their own beliefs, and not be forced by the beliefs of others.

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    Mute Bridget
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    Aug 18th 2014, 11:45 PM

    They may be a lobby group but i can assure you they are not the only one..
    Not that it is any if your business but I was Pro Life long long before I ever became a practicing catholic

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    Mute Florence Nightingale
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    Aug 20th 2014, 1:12 AM

    @Bridget

    “Exactly why should Someone else have the power over someone else’s life.”

    My irony klaxon is screaming considering the content and slant of all your previous comments.

    You’re absolutely right though. No one should have the power over someone else’s life, except when it comes to the state and pregnant women in crisis, right? Because you seem perfectly happy that this woman was forced, against her expressed will, to remain pregnant.

    But then many of those who are anti-choice have huge double standards…

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    Mute D
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:00 PM

    Niamh you and your brigade are personally responsible for this. You demonstrate your craziness further by writing an article about it, are you proud of the article or the situation? You should be ashamed for both!

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    Mute Proinsias Ó Foghlú
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:06 PM

    Niamh is correct to state that; “ENDA KENNY’S ABORTION law has fallen at the first hurdle, and has left a tiny baby, born to a vulnerable and distressed mother, struggling for life in a neo-natal ICU.”

    She is right because the legislation is so weak that this poor girl was denied an abortion as is her constitutional right!

    The 8th Amendment is an abomination and must be repealed. No one will be forced to have an abortion if it is repealed, it will be by choice!

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    Mute Bernie Linnane
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    Aug 18th 2014, 2:50 PM

    Like vultures they circled until the tragic circumstances of a raped teenager presented them with their chance to swoop. Their barely disguised glee is stomach-churning to witness.

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    Mute Bridget
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:28 PM

    Exactly

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    Mute Gaius Gracchus
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:29 PM

    Context > http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/a-smack-on-the-head-is-just-what-you-get-coir-youth-defence-and-the-catholic-right/ The Life ‘Institute’ is merely a rebranding of Cóir & Youth Defence in an attempt to present a more palatable image to the media, it’s all the same players in the background though.

    To be fair, I thought the article was sticking to the facts and actually surprised me, until the Daily Mail link (which is a completely separate issue and deflection), after which the wings caught fire, one of the engines fell off and eventually the whole article exploded in a gulf of flames.

    Until the day I die, I will be puzzled as to why the Catholic far-right are so obsessed with abortion, and the irony of women who have been indoctrinated into doing the bidding of the bishops and archbishops (who nowadays hide in their houses) who lead one of the largest misogynistic organisations in the world.

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    Mute Garry Coll
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:18 PM

    There is no great mystery Gaius, the obsession is not with abortion, in fact most would accept that abortions are a necessary medical procedure on rare instances to preserve the life of the mother or where the foetus is not viable.
    What they care about is the unborn child because they believe life begins at conception and that all life deserves protection, and that abortion on demand/request is a huge threat to a human life that cannot defend itself.
    This is not to ignore the mother carrying the child, her right to life and health being equally precious.
    There are those who do not share that belief and argue that it is possible to define the commencement of life in some other way, thereby convincing themselves that there is a valid reason for an abortion outside of a medical necessity.
    So the endless argument goes on.
    As for the hierarchy, people will listen to what they have to say, but generally will make their minds up for themselves.
    In relation to the tragic case being reported today, I think it would have been better if a more complete outline of the situation had been made instead of the sketchy information provided so far.

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    Mute Gaius Gracchus
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:33 PM

    Thanks for taking the time to explain that Gary.

    I am aware of the pro-life position on life beginning at conception, but as it is really a philosophical answer to a philosophical question, it’s not good enough in my view, and it shouldn’t be good enough for them either, hence my puzzlement.

    Agree re: the current case, some facts but no the whole picture.

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    Mute Nigerian King
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:38 PM

    Gaius ,

    I was wondering how long it would take to use the catholic card ,

    using peoples anger at what went on with the catholic church to switch them to the opposite side of a debate seems to common practice nowadays on the Journal and Irish Media.

    All kinds of people oppose abortion – Jews , protestants , muslims , non religious , the make-up of people who oppose abortion is quite wide ranging and diverse and is not limited to one religion.

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    Mute Garry Coll
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:47 PM

    Gaius, I don’t think they look on it as a philosophical conundrum, the meaning of life perhaps but not life itself.
    They look on life as a gift from God and do not feel they need any further proof.
    It is probably a question of perspective.

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    Mute Gaius Gracchus
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:02 PM

    Nigerian Prince, I am referring to Ireland, where the largest religion is catholicism, which is an anti-choice religion and organisation. The overwhelming majority of practising catholics are anti-choice. I never said there was no such thing as an anti-choice person from other denominations or none. The history of the movement in Ireland spawned from the teachings of the RCC, it’s key spokespeople are all hardline catholics, who are also opposed to SSM, our constitutional position on abortion (and many other issues) was heavily influenced by the RCC, all of these things are just coincidence I suppose, and to say that people are pro-choice because of what the RCC did in this country is quite insulting to peoples intelligence and untrue.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:05 PM

    “This is not to ignore the mother carrying the child, her right to life and health being equally precious”

    Except because of “pro life” ideals there’s nothing equal about it.

    No human has the right to use another humans body without their consent. Even if it is to preserve their life.

    The “pro life” position elevates the foetus to a position of primacy – it gets rights that no other human is entitled to. The right to use a woman’s body regardless of her feelings on the matter.

    Perhaps you can’t get your head around this – but there’s many reasons women may opt for abortion, health reasons – which you claim you support, are specifically excluded in this country because of “pro life”, in the case of rape – a woman still is denied the right to evict the product of her attack from her own body. Even if the child won’t survive birth the “pro life” stance of our government forces her to ensure the torture of continuing that pregnancy if she decides it’s too much for her.

    No one is saying that abortion should be the standard operation in these cases, simply that the choice should be available and made by the person who has to live with it.

    Quite simply, it’s none of anyone else’s goddamn business.

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    Mute Dave Obreen
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    Aug 18th 2014, 7:00 PM

    shanti ,

    Nobody has ownership over another living being ,

    Nobody can own another persons life ,

    if you dont have ownership over something , it is wrong to destroy it regardless of where its location is.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 7:34 PM

    Dave.

    One thing the woman does have ownership of is her womb, and as the foetus has no right to be in there without consent it cannot expect to remain there. Nor can you expect to force a woman to carry it within her.

    Up to a certain point of pregnancy a side effect of this removal will indeed mean death – but simply because the foetus is not capable of sustaining it’s existence without being inside that woman’s womb.

    There intent is not to explicitly kill the foetus – simply to remove the pregnancy from the womb. The day they invent synthetic wombs to transplant the foetus into will indeed be a jolly day but until then – if the foetus does not have consent to use her body, then she must have the right to remove it.

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    Mute Siobhán Mc Kenna
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    Aug 18th 2014, 9:41 PM

    Eh?! Aren’t we taking about the law in Ireland? I think you’ll find that religion plays an awfully big part in the Irish law on abortion.
    Those wizards just can’t help themselves. Giving women choice? Now that’s just logical. The RCC doesn’t deal with logic. That would mean them having less control over matters that don’t involve them. The big boys club couldn’t have that!

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    Mute Siobhán Mc Kenna
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    Aug 18th 2014, 9:48 PM

    Proof? Gift from god?
    Where’s the proof? Does’ god’ sign all the birth certs? Busy ‘man’

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    Mute Joanna
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:22 PM

    There could have been three potential outcomes to this situation:

    1. Deliver the baby prematurely causing untold complications to its life.
    2. Force the woman to have the baby, causing untold complications to both lives.
    3. A safe legal abortion.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:44 PM

    Niamh.

    Let’s lead with the agreement – with regards the fate of that poor child. It’s prematurity does indeed put it at a huge disadvantage, being in the care of the HSE another. The fact that children with special needs are frequently passed over for adoption yet another in the list of obstacles this poor child must now face – yay – it’s life was saved, but at what cost? There’s a difference between living and simply existing. My heart goes out to that baby, it has gotten the worst start in life imaginable.

    Now; I take issue with your misrepresentation of what the suicide clause was intended to do.

    The only people claiming that abortion is being used as a cure for suicidal intent are those who wish to rubbish it. Those on the pro choice side know that the suicide clause of this legislation is meant in an incredibly specific way – it is only engaged if the pregnancy is the thing causing those suicidal feelings.

    One does not need to be mentally ill in order to be suicidal either. One need just be faced with a situation they cannot handle – finding out you are pregnant with your attackers child for example.

    Wasn’t it your campaign who had the moving billboards that claimed abortion would be carried out here up to 9 months? Do you retract that statement now that evidence shows after 24 weeks it will in fact be delivered instead? Like those on the pro choice side pointed out was in the legislation all along..

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    Mute Martina Murray
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:33 PM

    ” it is only engaged if the pregnancy is the thing causing those suicidal feelings.” Explain how the abortion would apparently cure her of those suicidal feelings and acknowledge the fact that abortion itself has also caused suicidal feelings.Plus the fact that a physically healthy pregnancy is healthy and unjustifiable by people who see themselves as the middle ground,neither pro life or pro choice.It really seems that abortion because of suicidal feelings is simply abortion on demand because the mother just doesn,t want the baby, not a special mitigating circumstance that could actually be categorised as saving the life or health of the mother.

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    Mute Matt Connolly
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:57 PM

    An abortion may not “cure” suicidal feelings – but where pregnancy through rape has CAUSED suicidal feelings, then termination of pregnancy must be pursued.
    I’ll try dumb-down the crux of the x-case which this legislation has followed. Where both lives are at risk, even by the risk/threat of suicide, steps should be taken to save one of those lives – the mothers, through termination of the pregnancy (which is not confined to abortion).

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:11 PM

    If the pregnancy is what is causing her to be suicidal then removing the pregnancy removes the reason for feeling suicidal..
    I would have thought that was clear enough.

    Perhaps you should try and get your head around the fact that not everyone skips with glee at discovering a pregnancy – for some it’s the most positively terrifying experience in their lives.

    And how does this equate to abortion on demand? Feeling suicidal as a result of pregnancy is pretty rare and in this case was related to the fact it was the product of a rape.

    You’re not trying to insinuate that in countries where abortion is available on mental health grounds that women say they’re suicidal to access abortion are you?
    Because mental health is a far wider scope than just women at risk from suicide, and trying to claim that these criteria are anything alike is quite dishonest.

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    Mute M Bowe
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    Aug 18th 2014, 8:01 PM

    Martina if this pregnancy was not the driving factor of this girls mental condition, on top of the rape, what then was the criteria for an early c section.
    For this invasive procedure to be administered the decision that the pregnancy was a major problem had to be have taken.

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    Mute Emilio
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:17 PM

    If people like your kind in the Life Institute didn’t exist, the country would have never needed this legislation in the first place.

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    Mute Briny Boy
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:46 PM

    Exactly what we all need right now. An opinion piece from the spiritual leader of the monstrosity that is Youth Defence. Was God by your side when you wrote it, Niamh?

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    Mute Mick Roach
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:26 PM

    The day De Valera handed over the country to the church was a bad bad day for countless generations of Irish people. And yet we have historians like Diarmuid Ferriter rewriting history to portray Dev as some sort of hero. He wasn’t! He was a Yank of Spanish descent. Just look at his legacy now, all this stems from his power lust.

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    Mute Dave Obreen
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:06 PM

    Mick ,

    No worse than the Day Bertie and Fianna Fail handed the Country over to the EU ,

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    Mute Jess O Conor
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:22 PM

    Good thing Niamh isn’t in charge of anything important or the woman would have been strapped to a bed for nine months.

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    Mute Brian O'Sullivan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:04 PM

    Some facts for Ms Ui Bhriain:

    1) The Constitution is clear that a pregnant woman has a right to life, equal to that of the unborn.
    2) The Supreme Court has ruled that this means an abortion is permissible, where there is a substantial risk to the pregnant woman’s life.
    3) The people have twice rejected attempts to remove this constitutional right from pregnant women who’s life is at risk from suicide.

    Whether Ms Ui Bhriain likes it or not, Section 9 of the Act cannot be repealed as to do so with be unconstitutional. She needs a referendum to get it changed, and I don’t fancy her chances on winning that one.

    While I too am concerned for the health of the premature baby, what realistic alternatives did the doctors have? The psychiatrists agreed she was suicidal, and there was a substantial risk to her life. Restraining the woman against her will until she gave birth would only have exacerbated that condition, and may even have resulted in her taking her own life before reaching term. Meaning the loss of both mother and unborn.

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    Mute Conor Buggy
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:05 PM

    Tut tut Brian, the “Life Institute” aka Youth Defence and Coir do not like facts. They prefer to deal with judeo christian mythology. You shouldnt bother them with facts.

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    Mute Martina Murray
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:20 PM

    radical left wing feminists are one group that are not concerned with facts,not just christians I assure you……And how does an abortion cure a woman of suicidal ideation.

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    Mute Martina Murray
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:39 PM

    how would that happen when people are put on suicide watch(not only pregnant women who are suicidal).

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    Mute Brian O'Sullivan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:52 PM

    @Conor

    I know, but it’s a compulsion of mine. Don’t judge me!! :-)

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    Mute Martina Murray
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:59 PM

    no use voting down,just acknowledge the fact that there isn,t special mistreatment of suicidal pregnant woman when they are put on suicide watch because anyone who is suicidal is put on suicide watch and fed intravenously if they refuse food.

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    Mute Brian O'Sullivan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:08 PM

    Martina, I’m not sure why you’re posting this in response to my comment. I’m pointing out that the constitutional right to life extends to all pregnant women, not just those whose life is at risk from a physical illness. And in case it’s not clear why, that’s in direct response to Niamh’s call for Section 9 of the act to be repealed.

    I don’t see the relevance of your comments to mine. Or are you saying you want this constitutional right to life removed from pregnant women who’s lives are at risk from suicide?

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:16 PM

    As explained numerous times – abortion doesn’t cure suicidal feelings.

    If on the other hand the woman would rather die than continue the pregnancy, removing the pregnancy will remove her reason for feeling suicidal, and is the only circumstance this law applies to.

    We must be in for a bumper harvest – with all these straw men around they’re bound to keep the crows away..

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    Mute M Bowe
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    Aug 18th 2014, 8:06 PM

    When the suicidal ideation has come about because of rape leading to impregnation.

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    Mute Tim Stephen Hendy
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    Aug 18th 2014, 11:05 PM

    And also, ‘suicidal ideation’ is not a thing you either have or don’t have, it’s an opinion, from a professional, based on their assessment of your past behaviour in an attempt to guess your future behaviour. It’s not a mental illness or a personality disorder. You could, in theory, “cure” it by removing the thing that may (or may not) have caused it. But, I might be suicidal because I don’t have a job or a house, is the government then obligated to give me one of those? It’s legally tricky and it’s not a good precedent, which is why we have to rely on professionals to give an opinion. Which is a longwinded way of saying the law is silly, but it’s also the way in which the legal profession has stuffed the medical profession and passed the responsibility onto them, one they’d rather not have.

    The big problem (or one of them) being, that if the possible suicidalness is a result of the pregnancy, then the law allows for one course of action, while if the condition is pre-existing or a result of other factors, then no medical professional will advocate that same course of action, since no mentally ill person is deemed capable of making lifechanging decisions for themselves particularly if they have previously shown willingness to carry the child – something you can’t judge well in a country that didn’t make that an easy choice, like Ireland.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 19th 2014, 12:08 AM

    Comparing this to property ownership is perhaps a little callous, there’s a difference between owning the roof over your head and being forced to grow another human inside you and give birth to it.

    This can have permanent effects on your health – not owning your own house merely means you must rent.
    Being homeless means that you must engage with homeless services or sleep rough – none of which is good – but it’s a little different to having your body used by another against your will.

    There shouldn’t have to be the requirement to be suicidal. We should just accept that it’s not an easy task and one that none of us has the right to force upon another.

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    Mute Tim Stephen Hendy
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    Aug 19th 2014, 1:20 AM

    No, of course it isn’t a comparison – but if we can use the threat of ending our own life to get what we want, even if that thing is perfectly within our moral rights as we see them, it’s a bad precedent. There are things that are more personal than property ownership, for example some aspect of your physical self causes stress and suicidal thoughts, such as being transgendered. The Law as Ireland has it doesn’t recognise a woman’s right over her own body in this respect (or any person’s over their own body in other respects), so we have to deal with what we’ve got.

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    Mute CAK
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:47 PM

    Niamh and her merry band of commentators are disgusting human beings. I cannot understand those who have zero compassion for a DEFENCELESS YOUNG WOMAN, who was RAPED, FORCE FED and SLIT OPEN by the state. Not only do they not care less about this poor woman, Niamh is actually advocating that the state had continued to FORCE FEED this incredibly FRAGILE AND SUICIDIAL woman until she came to full term with the pregnancy she was FORCED to have. Its horrific.

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    Mute Dave Obreen
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:13 PM

    CAK

    resorting to personal attacks on people is not going to advance your cause

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    Mute Martina Murray
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:22 PM

    its a terrible irony, that she would also have been violated by the surgical act of an abortion on her body.how would an abortion have cured her of mental illness??

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    Mute Martina Murray
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:59 PM

    no point in voting down,just answer the question I posed.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:18 PM

    Who said she was mentally ill?
    She was suicidal, this doesn’t require a mental illness, just a situation that the person cannot cope with – like a pregnancy which is the result of a traumatic rape for example.

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    Mute William Nunan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:23 PM

    Cak.
    Raped.
    I don’t think that the Gov can take the credit for it.
    It appears that it happened before she came to the country.

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    Mute Michelle Manning
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:40 PM

    Shanti you are wasting your time with Martina. You have explained to her several times the difference and she just ignores it and states the same thing over and over. I tried to explain the same thing but it doesn’t suit her to listen.

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    Mute Getyercoat
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:48 PM

    Niamh, some questions for you.

    What treatment do you propose for a raped, suicidal 8-weeks pregnant woman?

    Medication? Not compatible with pregnancy I’m afraid, despite Pharma’s claims to the contrary.

    Counselling? There’s months-long waiting lists for that if you don’t have hundreds of euro to spend privately.

    So what’s it to be then?
    Drugged up on psychotropic medication unsafe for a foetus and in many cases, the patient, or waiting, suicidal, for counselling, unsafe for the suicidal person?

    Can anyone answer me please?

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    Mute Gaius Gracchus
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:16 PM

    The likes of the author do not do open, uncontrolled debates, take a quick look at the Youth Defence (of which the author is a founder) Facebook Page, they delete ANY comments that do not agree with their position, as recently as yesterday someone asked the admin why they were deleting comments, the response, nothing. Yet they are happy to leave comments like this up;

    ‘A total disaster, it’s being reported that this was rape and that the rapist wanted the baby dead. The pro-aborts are on his side, they are not baying for his blood… How messed up is that.’ – The person who made this comment is also an acquaintance of the author.

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    Mute Emilio
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:23 PM

    Niamh Ui Bhriain… she certainly has moved on from Operation Rescue days… not.

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    Mute Zoe Daly
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    Aug 18th 2014, 2:50 PM

    Very good article. We knew that under the new legislation, that scenarios like this were going to happen.
    But Enda Kenny would not listen. He forged ahead with the legislation, determined to push it through.
    All of the Pro Life groups warned about this possibility. And now it has happened.

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    Mute Irish Red
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:02 PM

    You did not know. How could you know that there could be a 13 week delay!? In your wildest dreams, nobody could think that this state would be so I compassionate towards a woman!

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    Mute Irish Red
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:05 PM

    *uncompassionate

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    Mute Brian Madden
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:13 PM

    Zoe, you are completely right, they won’t listen! They need to let let women decide what is best for them.women need to have a choice.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:57 PM

    Zoe.

    Abortion in cases where there is a risk to the life of the woman – including if that risk is from suicide – has been legal in this country since 1992.

    Since the Supreme Court interpreted the 8th amendment in the X Case and the people upheld it via referendum. It’s just – there was no way of finding out whether you qualified and doctors had very little to go on in terms of how big that threat had to be.

    The ECHR ruled in A, B & C vs Ireland that there was no means by which a woman could determine whether she qualified for the strict circumstances abortion is available here – effectively blocking pregnant women’s constitutional rights. They ordered the government to sort that out, and there were penalties for failing to do so (given that it had been 2 decades already).

    To lay blame at Edna’s feet is hopelessly misinformed.. The people voted for this Zoe, this was Ireland’s choice.

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    Mute Martina Murray
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:03 PM

    when a woman is considered to be suicidal the pregnancy is physically healthy,that is not strictly to save the life or health of the mother.This legislation including the suicide clause is nothing more than a cover for abortion on demand.”because she just doesn,t want the baby” is not a valid excuse in moderates stance(moderates who are neither pro life or pro choice).so you are showing extremism.

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    Mute Nick Beard
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:17 PM

    I believe you’ll find you’re the extremist, Martina. Most Irish people do not consider a rape survivor who is willing to starve herself rather than continue a pregnancy to be ending a pregnancy on the whim.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:25 PM

    1. Please explain how the suicide clause equates to “abortion on demand”
    2. As I advocate people being able to make their own decisions, please explain how this is “extremist”.

    I’m not the one trying to excuse forcing a woman so distressed by the fact she is pregnant that she is willing to kill herself to continue her pregnancy.
    I’m not the one trying to impose my will upon anyone.

    YOU ARE Martina.

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    Mute Julian Hough
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:51 PM

    Love getting my comment removed when I don’t use foul language. A regular occurence on thejournal. What I meant to say was Niamh Ui Bhrian is a wonderful, inept, medical genius, with modern, progressive views of women. My sincerest apologies for any offence caused to her, please don’t sue.

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    Mute Sailtee
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    Aug 18th 2014, 11:00 PM

    what age are you? Dipstick

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    Mute Mark Dowling
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:31 PM

    So what happens next? The child will be in NICU for probably 15 weeks if not more. Figure out how much that will cost the HSE. Hopefully it beats the odds and won’t have significant deficits that again, the State will cover the cost of. But those aren’t issues that really matter because the State pays for a lot worse so we’ll let that go.

    THEN, let’s see the pro-lifers stand up for this child when someone realises – hey, this kid doesn’t have an Irish citizen parent on their birth cert, so shouldn’t we deport it per the 27th Amendment? Watch the concerned Ionas and Life Instituters melt away into the shadows because the only Amendment they worry about is the 8th.

    This child was born at 25 weeks because the medics, knowing they were doing wrong and knowing that inevitably the story was going to get out, couldn’t stomach forcefeeding and restraining this woman and so cut her open at the earliest moment, and after that it was paediatrics problem, not theirs.

    Notice to the women of Ireland – if you become pregnant by accident, design or assault, go and retain counsel. Just because they did this to a woman with little English and no ability to access the right to travel for want of a visa, doesn’t mean they won’t try this, or something akin to it, on you.

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    Mute Padraic Beatty
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    Aug 18th 2014, 2:35 PM

    Could have sworn that was Saul Goodman

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    Mute Michael Reilly
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:34 PM

    God help this poor migrant woman and her child. They are just fodder for the legal and medical professions. According to weekend reports she was taken before a panel of three high paid consultants then to the High Court where not lawyers but teams of lawyers including a team representing the yet unborn child. Anyone representing the hapless taxpayers I guess not.
    Then the pro and anti abortion groups were out of the traps with the usual well worn mantras. No middle ground or common sense to the plight of the mother and child. Even a celibate bishop seems to have expertise in this area.
    In this and previous cases how is it always a hapless traveler or migrant ends up as the fodder.

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    Mute William Nunan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:11 PM

    Michael,

    Does being celibate impair cognitive ability?

    Should such a person be deprived of an opinion?

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    Mute Bernie Linnane
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    Aug 18th 2014, 8:44 PM

    The celibate bishop should not be deprived of an opinion, merely of the right to have that opinion make national headlines.

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    Mute William Nunan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:32 PM

    Nobody is happy , pro or anti abortion lobby.
    Get a new referendum up and running as soon as possible.
    This is not a solution, we are left with the same dilemma.
    Who will provide the “service” ?

    We are abhorred at incidents of cruelty to animal and rightly so.
    We can legislate all we like, we cannot insist that doctors go against their Hippocratic oath.
    ” I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgement and never do harm to anyone.”

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    Mute Niall o' Sullivan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 7:00 PM

    Irish doctors don’t take the hippocratic oath. It’s a common misconception.

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    Mute Diana Walshe
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:52 PM

    This is a ridiculous article – I can only presume the journal is printing such a piece of rubbish in the interests of not showing bias to one side of this debate.

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    Mute James Horkan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:54 PM

    would some of ye prefer to see the baby Murdered

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    Mute Ben Dover
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    Aug 18th 2014, 4:27 PM

    That baby has been as good as murdered by the obstetrician .

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    Mute Bridget
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    Aug 18th 2014, 8:53 PM

    Hardly

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    Mute Bridget
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    Aug 18th 2014, 3:26 PM

    Well said Niamh

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    Mute Conor Buggy
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:02 PM

    Said no one ever…

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    Mute Bridget
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    Aug 18th 2014, 8:48 PM

    Well i have just said so & countless others, there’s more to this country than the commenters on here ;)

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    Mute Conor Buggy
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    Aug 18th 2014, 9:18 PM

    There’s more to this country than catholicism too! Thank gawd!

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 10:07 PM

    “Countless”??

    Is this taken to mean so many you couldn’t possibly count, or you couldn’t be bothered counting? It hasn’t even got to a few hundred comments yet and many of those come from the same few of us.. It can’t be that hard to count them surely?

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    Mute Bridget
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    Aug 18th 2014, 11:47 PM

    Abortion is not only “catholic” issue either!

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    Mute Bridget
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    Aug 18th 2014, 11:52 PM

    Shanti
    There’s more to life than whats written on the journal you know..
    Don’t just go but what’s on here :) there’s a big world out there that thankfully don’t agree with deliberate abortion either..

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 19th 2014, 12:04 AM

    Pity there wasn’t enough of them to further restrict abortion when given the chance eh Bridget?
    Pity there aren’t enough of them answering in such a fashion for opinion polls either..

    I’m well aware there’s more than just the journal Bridget, are you aware that there’s more to life than black and white?

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    Mute Holly Fawcett
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:14 PM

    I absolutely agree that the law needs to be repealed, but honestly trying to legislate for all possible scenarios is an ethical minefield. It would be more practicable and ethical to enable women to make their own decisions and provide services for women who opt for termination for any reason. After all, it is their decision.

    The public don’t need to qualify or speculate a person is eligible to make this decision and make them Monday morning headline news when truly they need support, compassion and privacy.

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    Mute Sarah White
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:39 PM

    Great article. I’m absolutely astonished/horrified by some of the comments on here. Some people seem to be furious that this poor little mite escaped with her life! Just WTH is wrong with some so called people!

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    Mute Michelle Manning
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:43 PM

    Personally I have a problem with a woman’s body been abused twice. Also have a problem with a woman been held against her will, forcefed and strong armed into having a c section.

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    Mute Huib Zegers
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    Aug 18th 2014, 7:32 PM

    I hope that this poor woman will get a good lawyer to sue these docters who brutally violated her human rights and had no respect whatsoever for her bodily integrity. The conduct of those docters is absolutely unethical.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 9:19 PM

    Well said Huib and HI!

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    Mute Peter Connolly
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    Aug 18th 2014, 2:53 PM

    Wow I’ve discovers time travel I’m back in the 70s.

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    Mute Orla Mcdermott
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    Aug 19th 2014, 3:12 AM

    And YES, abortion is safer than birth.
    The risk of death
    associated with childbirth is approximately 14
    times higher than that with abortion. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22270271/

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    Mute Ciarán Masterson
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:40 PM

    “It has also been revealing to read the comments on social media from abortion supporters – and from taxpayer-funded bodies such as the National Women’s Council – who have failed to express even a shred of concern or compassion for the tiny child now battling for life in a NICU.”

    Spot on! The existence of the National Women’s Council, whose members are unelected, is an insult to women in this country because it implies that women cannot speak for themselves.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:20 PM

    Who do you think are their members??

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    Mute Ciarán Masterson
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    Aug 18th 2014, 8:18 PM

    @Shanti

    Did ordinary women vote for the members of the NWC? The marriage bar, the ban on divorce and the Magdalene laundries have been consigned to the dustbin of history. Ordinary women don’t need the NWC.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 10:02 PM

    Well thanks for telling women what they do and don’t need Ciaran, I’m sure they really needed that..

    And perhaps you just proved exactly why they exist..

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    Mute Ciarán Masterson
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    Aug 18th 2014, 11:06 PM

    @Shanti

    The taxpayers’ money that is spent on the NWC would be better spent on public healthcare. Sex discrimination in Ireland is largely a thing of the past. The Church doesn’t run the country anymore.

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    Mute Sean Beinead
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    Aug 18th 2014, 6:30 PM

    Any civilised society should not have abortion as it is the murder of an unborn child.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 8:23 PM

    You may want to invest in a dictionary.. You seem to have some issue with the meaning of stuff..

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    Mute Sean Beinead
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    Aug 18th 2014, 8:29 PM

    @ shanti

    Explain professor please ?

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    Mute Bridget
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    Aug 18th 2014, 9:01 PM

    Don’t pay to much heed to shanti she has a habit of getting nasty after a few comments

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    Mute Sean Beinead
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    Aug 18th 2014, 9:06 PM

    Shanti is just reaching out for friends.

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    Mute Conor Buggy
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    Aug 18th 2014, 9:20 PM

    Dont pay too much attention to Bridget, she has been indoctrinated by religion to not think for herself.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 9:23 PM

    I suspect she is refering to your use of the word murder, which is technically incorrect. Post birth, murder is the correct term, pre birth the term is abortion. This is because the foetus is not a sentient being and is entirely relient on the mother.

    Simple english. I don’t think Shanti is being nasty but just pointing out the error.

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    Mute Sean Beinead
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    Aug 18th 2014, 9:26 PM

    @ connor

    Cant recall bridget bringing religion into it did I miss something??

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    Mute Sean Beinead
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    Aug 18th 2014, 9:33 PM

    @ ailbhe

    Shanti is nasty always
    It is murder though ailbhe no matter how you gloss it up, abortion is supposed to be a more acceptable word, its the same thing, murder is murder hunny bun xx

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 9:40 PM

    Well maybe if you took Shanti’ s advice and looked it up in the dictionary, you’d see she is right. It’s not your fault or by design. It’s just the English language. If you choose yo equste abortion to murder, then that is your opinion, but you cannot simply adapt the English language anf change definitions.

    And please do not patronise me, you are being just as nasty as you accuse Shanti of being. Condescension is not necessary.

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    Mute Sean Beinead
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    Aug 18th 2014, 9:50 PM

    @ ailbhe

    You need sleep hunny bun xx, dont be getting ratty because your tired now, you contacted me sweet cheeks remember that, I am after all the class clown, im well aware of its definition technically but as far as im concerned it is murder, killing a child that hasnt even taken its first breath, a defenceless vulnerable child , I stand by the use of the word murder, please open your eyes, its plain wrong.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 9:51 PM

    Ailbhe is correct.

    My comment referred to your inappropriate use of the English language. Grammar is very important, and your labelling abortion as murder is incorrect.

    Murder is defined as “The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another:”
    Now, don’t get me wrong – in not saying the foetus is not human – but abortion is a legal procedure (even here in limited circumstances) so it is not murder.

    Also, for the human to be “being” it would need to be capable of such without the use of another humans body. If you remove the pregnancy before a certain point of gestation the effect will be death – but that does not imply premeditated killing – it implies the removal of the pregnancy. Death is merely the outcome of that removal.
    At the very most it could be considered manslaughter. But murder, no.

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    Mute Sean Beinead
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    Aug 18th 2014, 9:57 PM

    @ shanti

    Im more concerned for the unborn not a technical definition, I am fully aware of its definition although thank you for the clarification buddy.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 10:00 PM

    Well you’re entitled to your opinion, but it’s factually incorrect.

    As for your prioritisation of the foetus above all else, that too would be your choice (if you only had a womb), me – I’m of the opinion that the person who has to live with it should be the one making the decision. I have no right to enforce my will upon others. Unlike the pro lies side – I respect the concept of consent.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 10:04 PM

    So you’re only capable of condescension and not capable of understanding the English language. Shanti I wouldn’t waste my time on this guy.

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    Mute Sean Beinead
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    Aug 18th 2014, 10:09 PM

    @ shanti

    I prioritise both lives, if a mother is dying and the child has a chance of course save the child as long as all chance for the mother isnt possible and vice versa but mental health reasons as in suicidal ideation,no I dont agree other than the scenarios ive mentioned as medical intervention hasnt worked to save either life.

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    Mute Sean Beinead
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    Aug 18th 2014, 10:11 PM

    @ ailbhe
    Thanks pet, love always xxxx

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 10:12 PM

    So if a woman would rather kill herself than continue a pregnancy – what is your suggestion then?

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    Mute Sean Beinead
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    Aug 18th 2014, 10:14 PM

    @ shanti
    Dont want to be rude and not reply but we have both laid out our stalls and I have to sign off for the night so thanks for the chat im sure we’ll cross paths again.

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    Mute Conor Buggy
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    Aug 18th 2014, 10:16 PM

    @ sean having observed Bridgets comments on a wide range of issues I can state that religious based morals objectify everything she says. So she brings religious ideology into everything without directly referring to it.

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Aug 18th 2014, 10:23 PM

    Sweet dreams Seany, don’t forget your blanky. Hope somebody is there to tuck ya in……MWAH

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    Mute headwreck
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    Aug 18th 2014, 10:42 PM

    Shanti is a very good poster and very informative

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    Mute headwreck
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    Aug 18th 2014, 10:46 PM

    The only time the foetus should be prioritised is if the women makes that decision, if she ‘chooses’ that her life be prioritised well so be it and no one has the right to impose their opinion or possition on her end of.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 10:53 PM

    Alright so Sean, good night – as you say we are bound to cross paths again.

    And cheers Headwreck (no matter what way I choose to phrase that to me it sounds sarcastic because of your username – touché!)

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    Mute Bridget
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    Aug 19th 2014, 12:09 AM

    Just because something is legal does not make it right..

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    Mute Bridget
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    Aug 19th 2014, 12:16 AM

    Conor talking nonsense, I don’t regularly post on different topic but I can guarantee you, I have never ever once used religion as a reason to detest abortion..
    I have been accused of it several times tonight but its simple not true…

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    Mute Conor Buggy
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    Aug 19th 2014, 7:47 AM

    Says the woman with a christian religious symbol for a picture…..

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    Mute Bridget
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    Aug 19th 2014, 10:03 PM

    So…
    google what it is a symbol of.

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    Mute Orla Mcdermott
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    Aug 19th 2014, 3:15 AM

    I just wanted to clear something up. To those of you who say ‘abortion is murder’ ‘don’t kill the ‘child’ and so on, it was NOT a child, it was a fetus. And they CANNOT feel pain until at LEAST 24 weeks from conception. Early abortions save lives and remove the fetus before there is any suffering. Here are the facts;
    Both the Journal of the American Medical Association and the British Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists,
    (Not to mention smaller studies from researchers at Harvard University
    College London and elsewhere.) agree that “what we know in terms of the brain and the nervous system in a fetus is that the part of the brain that perceives pain is not connected to the part of the body that receives pain signals until about 26 weeks from the last menstrual period, which is about 24 weeks from conception”.
    And to all the ‘pro-lifers’, if you want to respond with something productive, please provide evidence from a non religious, non pro life, but neutral standpoint.

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    Mute Martina Murray
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    Aug 18th 2014, 5:56 PM

    if one only believes in abortion in the case of rape,then is it always the case that its impossible for women to lie about being raped even if she happens to have for example ,schizophrenia, so just abort the preborn baby in case it resulted from rape?? Also why won, t those pro choice people who call themselves ‘feminists’ argue for the death penalty of the rapist instead of the unborn infant conceived as the result of a rape?

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 18th 2014, 8:22 PM

    Wow, so much utter bull$h1t in one place!!
    What would schizophrenia have to do with any of this?
    And are you trying to claim that we should assume that all women who have survived rape are lying? I don’t disagree – it is entirely possible for someone to lie, but to tar every woman with that brush because of a few?

    Are you *actually* female, or is that just the username you chose to comment here?

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    Mute Maura Molumby
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    Aug 18th 2014, 11:47 PM

    It was always clear that t his barbaric new law could not work, and now we seem to have the first real example of it in action. This poor distressed girl needed total support, compassion and instead she just wanted to have her child killed, obviously because she was not given any of the compassion and support she so badly needed. There seems to have been no medical reason to deliver her baby so prematurely, and now the mother is probably as distressed as ever, and her child is fighting for its life, thankfully, with all the huge advantages of medical science available. I have known a few babies in recent years who decided to arrive in this world at 24 weeks, 2 in particular, and TG they are both now totally normal healthy 15 months old bouncing babies. Lets all pray that this baby will be so lucky, and then surely the”!pro-choice” people will have to admit that this is a child, right from day one, not a “foetus”, or a clump of cells. How can people be so blind, it boggles my mind, but Enda Kenny may very well need this example to make him see what he has done, the Lord has strange ways of bringing His enlighenment to people, so my friends, get praying. We need this baby to survive and be normal to, hopefully, convince the general public, and in particular our TDs, of the enormity of what they have done. In hope.

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 19th 2014, 12:13 AM

    You gave the impression that you had compassion for her, but then you advocated completely ignoring her wishes and compelling her to carry a pregnancy she didn’t want because of *your* morals.
    What’s so hard about accepting that as there is no hard and fast answers to this situation and instead all sorts of complex and individual circumstances that perhaps it should be up to the person it directly effects rather than anyone else?

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    Mute Shanti
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    Aug 19th 2014, 12:19 AM

    Oh and with regards calls to prayer (what your religion has to do with a strangers womb is beyond me) but I refer you to the following from the Gospel of Matthew..
    “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.”

    It’s perhaps best to keep religion and this discussion as far away from each other as possible.

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    Mute Brian O'Sullivan
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    Aug 19th 2014, 12:32 AM

    Maura, if you object to the early delivery as a means to save the mother’s life, what alternative actions would you have taken? This is a clearly distressed, vulnerable woman of just 18. The psychiatrists agree her life is at risk from suicide, she’s started a hunger strike, and there’s a court order allowing forced hydration.

    What steps would you take to protect both her life and the unborn’s in those circumstances?

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    Mute Frankie Mangan
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    Aug 19th 2014, 2:20 AM

    Enda Kenny is the poster child for pro abortionists, Is it too late to abort him now?

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    Mute Ailbhe O'Nolan
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    Aug 19th 2014, 8:28 AM

    So are you for or against abortion. You criticise yet condone it. You seem confused

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    Mute Dermot O'Reilly
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    Aug 19th 2014, 11:01 PM

    Can Enda Kenny or Minister Fitzgerald produce one case where a pregnant women in Ireland died from self inflicted suicide?

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    Mute Bill Houlihan
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    Aug 20th 2014, 3:35 PM

    everybody is missing the point. the baby(s) are pawns in the quest for feminism. that why they say foetus and not baby. if they would just stop living the lie and say we want to say who lives and dies. all the nonsence about suicidal tendenicies is lies. everybody could everything if they say they are suicidal. women rights overide mens and childrens rights everyday of the week.
    do women realise that we need every baby possible to stem the tide of depopulation of europeans

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    Mute grainne coughlan
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    Aug 20th 2014, 7:02 PM

    I find it frustrating to comprehend how the Journal can allow such writing to be part of its content. bias, withholding of facts can not create informative journalism. As an advocate of pro choice, I am finding it increasingly hard to comprehend the abortion debate, on one hand Pro Life groups rally for a totalitarian reaction to all abortion, pro choice groups now spend energy fighting for abortion for where there is a risk to the woman’s life, why should any group debate what I do with my body under my own circumstances?

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    Mute Pauline Mott
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    Aug 20th 2014, 7:22 AM

    So the unwanted spawn of a rapist is in the NICU where every effort is being made to save its life so it can go on to a miserable existence with no parent to love and rear it. Or will some pro-lifer adopt it so it can be shown off at rallies as the saved foetus. Abortion sure sounds like the kinder option.

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    Mute Annette Mcloughlin
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    Aug 20th 2014, 2:04 PM

    I cannot get my head around this case at all please correct me when i say “why did this girl not go to a european country that condones abortion “???????????????surely she knew it was not allowed here !!

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