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LABOUR COUNCILLORS WEREN’T too happy when the list of names to receive the Freedom of Dublin was made public yesterday.
To be clear — they didn’t have any problem with either soccer legend John Giles or Brother Kevin Crowley, of the Capuchin Day Centre, being put forward by Lord Mayor Christy Burke.
Rather, the lack of women was an issue.
“I was very disappointed last year when no women were considered and I raised the issue privately,” Councillor Rebecca Moynihan told this website yesterday.
This year when I heard that there were no women nominated again, I contacted the Lord Mayor, Christy Burke, to discuss this and suggest women’s names.
What woman would you nominate for the honour?
Remember, the recipient doesn’t necessarily have to be from the city — Brother Crowley is from Cork, for instance (for that matter, obviously Aung San Suu Kyi is from Burma).
Anyway… Over to you.
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the strangest thing about this case is the location, who on earth would accept going on a first date in a stranger’s car to the mountains?
@Scundered: he said they were taking the scenic route. I have gone driving on a date around howth head before. I would assume something like that. Both stories seemed very off to me. A hard one to prove.
@Deborah Behan:
To prove guilt or to prove innocence?
@Scundered: They agreed on “a spin and a coffee”, seems normal enough for a chat to get to know someone. Being driven to the middle of nowhere is I’m sure not what she expected.
@Rochelle: No, definitely not normal to get into a complete stranger’s car.
@Nick Allen: You don’t have to prove innocence! You start with innocence.
@Lorem Ipsum: ya you just have to prove 90% guilt, 89% and your perpetrator walks free.
@Scundered: and what
@Lorem Ipsum: nothing innocent about this creep, he’s a convicted rapist.
@Scundered: Its Not the stranges thing about the case the strangest thing is the garda charged the guy with rape. she when on tinder the next morning looking for another hook up . What woman that has been raped the night before who log on and chat to other men.
It’s interesting that when someone is found guilty of rape they are guilty (rightly so), yet when they are not, people say we will never know!
@Whingy McWhingy: Well yes, that’s often the case. The jury did not determine that he was innocent, for that was not their role; they determined that they could not say he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
@Derek Walsh: what happened to innocent until proven guilty.
@Joe Mc: an outdated phrase… it’s not practical in the real world.
@Scundered: so by your law the minute you step into a courtroom you are guilty. Hmm. North korea comes to mind
@Whingy McWhingy: because that’s how the law works, he was acquitted, not proven innocent.
@Joe Mc: not innocent not guilty. While we have an understanding that this is an important part of law, although it is not codified in the Constitution. In the law, it goes something like “no person shall be tried save in the course of law”, which is typical Irish vagueness.
In this case he was declared innocent, and we have to accept it – like OJ – even though we will never know, or agree with the outcome. Sean Fitzpatrick on the other hand will be eternally untried, and cannot claim he was proven innocent or guilty.
@Gulliver Foyle: Jesus Christ. This is nothing to do with Sean Fitzpatrick you hopeless muppet.
@Joe Mc: Ok for example, a teacher is reported for child molestation, do you let them continue teaching or remove them from practice until the case is heard in court?
@Gulliver Foyle: Actually, Seanie Fitz was found not guilty by direction of the trial judge.
@Whingy McWhingy: We’ll never know.
@Heroin Chic: That’s an interesting observation. So all throughout the years of criminal justice, going back hundreds or maybe thousands of years, no accused is really innocent , as they were only acquitted . Does the judge not ask the jury any more. How do you find the defendant,Guilty or not Guilty.and in the case of the jury giving a non guilty answer, Is that not a statement of the defendant’s innocence.
@Eoin Byrne: Actually in the Sean Fitzpatrick trial , the judge did not direct the jury to find him innocent. The judge had dismissed the jury and declared the evidence against him was inadmissable. There is a difference.
@Just Me: you are wrong on that one.
@Heroin Chic: that’s not how the law works – everybody is presumed innocent unless found guilty. The presumption was not rebutted, therefore innocent.
@Gulliver Foyle: Your grasp of constitutional law is worse than a first year undergrad
@Lorem Ipsum: oh ffs – who gave the muggle a copy of Bunreacht na hÉireann?
@Derek Walsh: what are you in about. He was acquitted by a jury of his peers. He is innocent of the charges brought against him. You cannot assume anything else.
@Gulliver Foyle: proved innocent of being guilty.
@Derek Walsh: the report above states that the unfortunate man was found to be innocent. Why do some women do this? And persist with a false accusation throughout a trial..very bad form
@Adolf Hitler: *not guilty
Someone leaving his own Criminal court case yelling “I’ll get you!” to the Detective Garda doesn’t seem like a very pleasant fellow!?
@Dub_Right: … And being returned to custody.
What an innocent charmer, eh?
@Dub_Right: He should have been hauled back in and charged with that at least, plenty of witnesses.
@Dub_Right: sounds like he feels the garda were trying to get him no matter what.
@Dub_Right: Then again it’s possible he was stitched. Pleasant or not, the Garda might be as big an A-hole
Genuinely baffled by this outcome. She said no, they still had sex at his insistence. What part of that isn’t rape?
It was said earlier in the week that going for a drive, the victim had consented as a drive meant they were going for a ride? Right, grand, fair enough, some people like casual sex with strangers. If she CHANGED HER MIND that doesn’t give him the right to rape her.
Am I missing something here? Why would you accuse someone of rape if they didn’t rape you? Even if she had been sending him dirty pictures and texts and talking about having sex with him, if she changed her mind right beforehand that doesn’t mean it was ok for him to force himself on her because of what she had previously agreed to. It’s not cool to bail on previously agreed plans, but the outcome of that shouldn’t have been rape.
Everyone keeps saying “Well, she got into a car and went up the mountains with a stranger” – I don’t see how that is relevant. Because she went for a drive with a stranger, the rape was her own fault?! Maybe they were going up the mountains to smoke a joint or just chill at a viewpoint, under the impression that it might lead to something else. It didn’t. She said no. He still had sex with her. That’s rape, regardless. Actually baffled at this result.
@Rachel: I agree, this is disgraceful. Rape is far more common than people realise and it’s under reported. Decisions like this just make it even less likely to be reported.
@Rachel: me too. From reading the account over on the indo I can’t see how anyone would have thought sex was still on, after shutting him down the guy left her in the middle of nowhere with no phone reception before coming back to get her. Letting her know that he controlled the situation, proving his desire for power, which is what rape is all about. No one is going to be up for sex after that. How is abandoning someone in the middle of nowhere goin gnome to make them *more*receptive to your advances? If anything it puts them in a position where they feel powerless. Which is exactly how she said she felt.. Whaton earth were the jury thinking? He said he was expecting sex, he clearly had a tantrum when he wasn’t getting it. I’m sorry, but this stinks.
@Rachel: But there was no evidence to prove either side of the story, that’s the problem, the exact truth may never be known.
It’s in everyone’s interests to have a little cop-on when it comes to meeting total strangers. You can be as black and white about the rules but still folk need to show some responsibility for themselves too.
@Scundered: lack of cop on does not excuse rape.
I’ve read the indo. have a read of this too.
this is a messed up story where neither side seems to be telling the whole truth.
@Tony Daly:
Nobody said it did. Simply put, If you choose to put yourself in danger it’s the same as walking through a dodgy part of town at night, if you take careless chances the probability of something bad happening is a lot higher. Dating isn’t rocket science.
@Rachel: She spoke with other men afterwards when alleged rape victims are supposed to lock themselves up and cry for their lost innocence. Because she didn’t do this, obviously she’s a predator out to trap men.
/sarcasm.
@DaisyChainsaw: if you were raped would you be on tinder 36 hours later saying that you had a naughty side and would you add the person who raped you to your previous sexual partners on your phone?
the stories from both sides in this unfortunate case don’t add up.
@DaisyChainsaw: a predetor? Is she a victim. The questions about her being credible are fair. She lied. Deleted evidence. The mans not a saint but she aint one either.
@Tony Daly: Rape did not happen. Can’t you read?
@Rachel: I think you’ve completely missed the point by a wide margin. It was just proven in a court of law and a jury of his peers that he DIDN’T force himself on the complainant. Which part of that don’t you understand?
@Rui Firmino: if it’s unreported you cannot say it’s happening as you simply do not know unless it’s reported.
Scary!! You’d wonder why people dont meet in more decent places where there are people around to avoid such situationships!
Dangerous women who can’t accept they wanted casual sex too but because of out dated stigmas and name calling can’t believe that they are only human too.
@Rorisang Thato Tladi: Working in the legal profession, you will always find that there is at least one side lying, sometimes both sides lie. Guilty people get off, innocent people get jailed. Her behavior after the incident seemed inconsistent with her accusations. Convictions must be beyond a reasonable doubt.
@John Cusack: The lady’s story was just weird. She deleted messages, didn’t call the guards immediately, she waited for some time before reporting it. I’m not suggesting a crime was not committed but if you are raped, the first thing is to call the police and get yourself checked. Or?!
@Rorisang Thato Tladi: People have to be allowed to meet up somewhere private without being raped OR being accused in the wrong
You could say either party in this case left themselves open to one crime or the other being perpetrated against them but either way the fault lies with the person committing the crime, not the victim
It’s also possible that both parties believe they’re in the right
@The Girl: That is a gross assumption and responsibility to place on victims of sexual assault. There are myriad reasons why someone wouldn’t be running to the nearest Garda station, one being shock. Then there’s victim blaming. It can take a person years to build up the courage to say something happened,and when they do they should be believed.
@The Girl: Is it the first thing? Is it really? Because most victims aren’t believed. It’s usual to ask what they did to deserve it or what they didn’t do to prevent it. Look at some if the comments here. Even when reported, finding justice in this country is near on impossible. For many, the first reaction is to erase what happened and it’s on reflection they want the person responsible published. At that point, many still can’t bring themselves to report.
@Felicity Hensen: the responsibility of ensuring the rapist is jailed lies on the victim, unfortunately. Don’t destroy evidence if you want justice. That’s all I’m saying.
@The Girl: Actually the first thing isn’t always to go to the garda or get yourself checked out. People deal with it in different ways, some want to pretend it never happened and others are too scared to report it to garda or feel ashamed/embarrassed.
@The Girl: What the actual fu*k. What the actual, actual fu*k. I hope you’re being a troll, because if that’s what you really think, you’ve just shown why so many people don’t report sexual assults.
While the exact details of the encounter are not available,I honestly could not give an opinion on the verdict,however,that said,I believe that the womans right to say no was ignored.If this is how we can expect our courts to deal with similar cases in the future,I feel that it will in some cases legitimise rape up to a point. Their should be no verdict handed down in any court anywhere that undermines a womans right to say NO….The jurors should be fkn ashamed of themselves.
@Alan Ball: ..There should….my mistake!
@Alan Ball: why should they be ashamed of themselves. They did hear the evidence and found him not guilty. Completely agree that a woman has the right to say NO, and this should always be adhered to.
@Alan Ball: There is a lot more detail about her testimony on the Irish Indo story. It makes for very uncomfortable reading.
@Alan Ball: You actually contradicted yourself before you even finished the first sentence of you statement.
@Alan Ball: Her word/version should just be accepted?
@Alan Ball: I sincerely hope you’re never on a jury in a contentious case. Coming to a verdict based on your own pre-standing opinions and beliefs, rather than on the evidence before you and the principles of law that must apply.
@Rosie Murray: There rarely ever is in rape cases, that’s what makes it so hard to prove. Falsely accusing someone of rape is a disgusting thing to do, but there is something not right with this story. Again, check out her testimony on the indo story.
@Alan Ball: u just didnt give you an opinion on the verdict, with as you say the exact details not being available
@Alan Ball: not what he said. Accordingly she went mental when he ejaculated inside her and that’s the reason she pressed on with the false rape allegation. Yes there are a lot of evil rapists out there, but at the same token, obviously not in the same numbers, there are also people messed up enough to meet up with strangers for sex. There are also those who find it ok to falsely accuse somebody of crime and have no issue with that same person serving time in prison unjustly so.
@BevinArmageddon: agreed. He drove off and left her in the middle of nowhere, then came back, drove her down another lane and hopped on her. How on earth did the jury think that someone would be up for it after that?
@BevinArmageddon: Yes. According to the evidence, the alleged victim was not the one to call the gardai, but her flatmate after she had said the sex was’nt good. It appears that 36 hours later she was in contact with 6 men on tinder. It’s important to hear the evidence fully as the jury did, before commentating on a half story article.
@Just Me: ‘a half story article’. There’s another thing. It’s now almost 90 minutes since the Independent put up the story with the further details that some others mention here. Yet The Journal story still says ‘more to follow’. Why the delay, I wonder?
@Just Me: so she was chatting with different people on Tinder? I believe that’s a pretty normal thing to do. The he said/she said situation is one of the hardest scenarios for a jury to have to deal with. They have to pick one side, and it wasn’t unanimous. personally, I think they were wrong. He sounds like a stand-up guy though…. still in custody for other offenses. Nothing sketchy here at all.
@Just Me: So women who’ve been allegedly raped shouldn’t be talking to men afterwards? They’re supposed to retreat from life and shrivel up and die because they’ve been defiled?
@BevinArmageddon: if you had just been raped, would you seriously be on tinder 36 hours later saying that you have a naughty side. would you add the person who just raped you to a previous sexual partners list on your phone?
both sides to this story are dodgy.
@Alan Ball:
“I honestly could not give an opinion on the verdict,however,that said,I believe that the womans right to say no was ignored.”
Quality comment there Alan
@gjpb: who cares how many guys she’s been with? I believe this girl changed her mind and he forced himself on her. If she hadn’t been raped, why follow through with such a painful experience of dragging yourself through the Irish court system? I know someone who had an incident with a guy and they didn’t fully realize it was rape until they actually shared what happened to them and never they reported it.
@BevinArmageddon:
maybe cos he treated her like crap and she wanted revenge?
I never said anything about how many guys she has been with in the past. that’s not relevant. what is relevant is that if you were raped, would you seriously be looking dates the very next day and telling some of those guys how naughty you were?
only the 2 of them really know what went on unfortunately. all of us are only speculating.
if he did it, he obv deserved to get punished. as I said, both sides to the story don’t add up.
@Alan Ball: So you don’t have the details, you couldn’t voice an opinion but yer man’s guilty and the jury should be ashamed. Would you ever FO back into your self righteous shell
What part of not guilty do people not understand…
@Neil Farrell: just because they found him not guilty doesn’t mean he actually is not guilty
@Frankie James: exactly, it just means they couldn’t definitively prove that he did it. So it’s wrong for people to say the women is a liar. We simply don’t know.
@Heroin Chic: “It’s wrong for people to say the woman is a liar” Can you point out any post that states the woman is a liar.
@Frankie James: That’s exactly what it means
@Frankie James: oh but as he’s a man he’s automatically in suspicion despite the verdict because ….reasons!
The defendant sounds like a lovely fella – I think sometimes other offences and previous convictions should be divulged to the jury, especially in he said she said situations.
@BoggerBlogger: you make a great point. The guards may be dealing with a serial murderer and they can’t disclose this during a trial. Crazy
@BoggerBlogger: Just because someone has committed one crime, doesn’t mean they are guilty of all. If past crimes are divulged to a jury they are more likely to just convict on the basis that he is guilty of something. Makes it very easy for Gardai to pin stuff on the usual suspects too because convictions will be easily secured.
@Karen Doyle: And then ppl don’t want the alleged victims’ past sexual history brought up. You can’t have it all
As a wise man once said ‘ Consent is no longer enough , hold out for enthusiasm’
@just readin: this is so ignorant.
@just readin: best comment of the day. People do change their minds even after the fact. Then they pursue “justice” to justify their guilt.
@Tom McHugh: do you have any proof of this tom? Or just your ignorant opinion?
He said he did not rape her, but freely admitted whilst giving evidence in court that he came inside her without wearing a condom, despite knowing she did not want him to do that. That is admitting, in court, to an act of sexual assault, regarded legally as rape in a lot of countries. His charming remarks afterwards speak volumes too. Amazed he was not convicted.
Sadly rape is difficult to prosecute. We’ll never know the truth now, only the who were there will.
@Heroin Chic: *the two
@Heroin Chic: If at least one of them is a lady, I would say they don’t know the truth either.
What person if they were raped would go back on the site in which they met their alleged rapist and message six other men???
@Shauna Mooney: People react in myriad ways after getting raped. Please do some research into this before commenting victim blaming and myth spreading comments online where other survivors might read them. There are plenty of books available and resources online you can find. Why not spend your internet time doing that, instead of doing the above. Thanks!
I seriously doubt the average woman fantasizes about casual sex with some stranger in the Dublin Mountains. Now I am not exactly Louise O Neill’s biggest fan, but when she complains about the low conviction rates for rape, this case is exactly what she is talking about. I think it is rape.
@John Frank: That’s exactly what he’s suggesting. It’s effing weird
I just hope that this serves as a warning to men and women to be very careful on these “sex”sites.
Because that’s all they are.And this individuals outburst threatening a garda in court with such abusive language is worrying.Stay safe.
@gerry fallon: I met my partner on that ‘sex site’. I met several other nice men in the course of meeting him. None of them raped me on a detour. Suggesting that it might have been a contributing factor in this case throws the focus on the action of the victim, not the rapist and is lazy, ill-considered and dumb.
@Sarah Hempenstall: in this case there is no rapist according to the law
Getting away from the guilty not guilty debate but there is another issue here with regards safety! If you are a girl or a guy for that matter you should never be putting yourself in that situation with a complete stranger.
Hire a proof reader. Last two lines repeated.
Alot more facts available on why was not guilty, we will not know but was proven her story was not fully true.
@ginger tomatoes i9: I disagree. There was doubt in the Jury’s mind as to guilt.
A lot of comments on this thread are coming very close and some comments are victim blaming ,whatever your view on this case the woman in question believes this was rape,i hope that every body concerned gets the support to heal.
Guilty. Injustice
@George McCarthy: Good man. You get the torches, I;ll get the mob going.
Dipstick
I know of someone who said no – he didn’t accept that because her friend went back with a guy too. Dressed in jeans and a jumper, not drunk but she didn’t report because for example some of the comments on here and the upset and doubt it would bring her an her family.Ireland is so behind the times with accepting when someone has been raped mostly taboo and journalism. That said I am confused with this case though because I don’t believe you would be straight back on the site messaging other guys unless you had mental health issues – I wonder was she assessed for trauma / mental health …on other charges shouting threats it does make you wonder – glad I wasn’t on that jury.
There’s more to this than meets the eye
Why the stitcheup comments
What s really going on???
@DaisyChainsaw: The issue wasn’t whether he was a nice guy or not. The issue was whether he was a rapist, and he’s been found not guilty. Any other alleged crimes are irrelevant to this case
@Alastair Langwell: Inlcuding sexual crimes?
Hmmmm
@Paul Roche: ¡¿
Let’s hope he’s not up on another rape charge.
@Steve O’Gorman: he is currently in prison. On a sex charge.
None of you know so STFU !
@Terry Cahill: yip. A trial lasting over a week is condensed to a few paragraphs. The people who listened to it made a call. Hate to have to listen that for a week.
Time tough sentencing was introduced as a deterrent against those who clearly make false claims & try to destroy people’s life’s.
@DPentony: And how will they decide if an accusation was false? Just based on a not guilty verdict or will there be evidence required and a fair trial?
@DPentony: she didn’t make a false claim
This man has had a fair trial and been found not guilty of a crime. Yet many of you have found this woman guilty of false accusation without a fair trial. No conviction does not equal false accusation!!!
Why the hell are people complaining about “false allegations”?? You have no idea if this allegation was false or not. So he was found not guilty. He is legally innocent That doesn’t automatically mean that the woman lied and he didn’t actually commit a crime. If your house is burgled but they don’t successfully convict someone for it, it doesn’t mean it wasn’t actually robbed. Attacking women like this will only serve to lower an already shockingly low reporting rate because they will be afraid of being accused of lying if the perpatror is found not guilty because there is not enough evidence. Remember that false reporting of rape is very low, and many many more women will be raped than men falsely accused!!
Remember ladies, unless you can 100% guarantee that the perpetrator will be found guilty, don’t report being raped because if they are found not guilty then you are a “liar” and “a danger to society” because of your “false allegation”!
It’s an app purely for sexual encounters; what was to be expected? Watercress sandwiches & tea followed by a stroll on Bray promenade? You’ll reap what you sow.
The judicial system in this country gets more baffling with every case.
@Adolf Hitler: why would you feel for him?
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