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Updated 8.47am
SCHOOL CURRICULUMS NEED A “built-in system” of mental health education, the founder of Console has said.
Paul Kelly said that Irish schools need more programmes where children are taught about, and how to handle, mental health issues.
He said that the ‘fragmented’ and ‘overstretched’ state of services means that, in some cases, children might not know who to turn to. There may also be delays in seeking professional help.
Kelly told TheJournal.ie:
Young people need to realise that it’s quite normal to face difficulties, and that, above all, there’s hope. They should always feel comfortable talking them through.
“Better education would mean we can better identify who is at risk, and to be able to ensure they can get the support they need.”
Kelly noted that in many schools, cuts have affected the role of the guidance counsellor, who previously would have acted as a point of contact for children facing issues:
“Those roles have been diminished. Cutbacks have badly affected these people on the front-line who would acted as a point-of-contact for children seeking help.”
He was speaking after the body of a 15-year-old girl was found in south Dublin yesterday. The incident is being treated by gardaí as a personal tragedy.
There has been contact between the school close to where she was found, Cabinteely Community School, and the National Educational Psychological Service (NEPS) in order to provide psychological services to anyone affected.
“Our sympathies go out to the whole family, the school, the parents,” Kelly said, “This can be hugely traumatising for a school community.”
Local Fianna Fáil councillor Jennifer Cuffe echoed Kelly’s call for increased support for school guidance counsellors, and said that improving services nationally needs to be made a priority.
“It’s not high on the agenda,” she said. “We have to be able to help people in difficult situations and to ensure that the stigma behind mental health is removed.”
Helplines
Samaritans 116 123 or email jo@samaritans.org
Console 1800 247 247 – (suicide prevention, self-harm, bereavement)
Aware 1890 303 302 (depression anxiety)
Pieta House 01 601 0000 or email mary@pieta.ie - (suicide, self-harm, bereavement)
Teen-Line Ireland 1800 833 634 (for ages 13 to 19)
Childline 1800 66 66 66 (for under 18s)
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What is wrong with some people.
Religion does completely stupid things to people
Always had my doubts about Adele
Religion is just an excuse!
Just Di – religion is the catalyst.
It’s not Alan in many cases it’s just a tool that extremists use to manipulate minds.
And the Bible promotes sexism, homophobia & murder…
Islamic fundamentalism wouldn’t be a problem if it weren’t for the fundamentals of Islam.
I think you will find it’s the other way round. People do crazy things in the name of religion. All of the worlds religions share central core values of peace, understanding and promote a moral code to the benefit of humanity. Islam in particular has been twisted beyond recognition to justify all manner of insanity. I suspect many muslims feel the same sense of shame and horror as we did when people were blown to pieces in Britain in the name of Irish freedom and Catholic equality. Same savagery, different flag of convince.
Convenience!
Yes David but let’s not forget that Islam is not the universal religion it sometimes appears to be…the faith has more offshoots and schisms than Christianity, has unique regional variants and practices unacceptable to say Sunni and Shiah and like Christianity, while the central theme is present, it is lost in the regional practices and in radicalism.
So I think we can all agree that religions are inherently evil and the world would be a much better place without them.
Emer it all comes down to one thing RELIGION. The greatest scourge ever.
Islamic fundamentalists have declared war on the West and all other religions, we need to deal with this. Don’t forget that this Islamic ‘peace mission’ now extends from Chechnya right down to Nigeria [and beyond] It is all interlinked. Comparisons to historical events and other religions are odious as the dead are counted and laid to rest in Kenya and Pakistan and Syria and on and on.There is no justification or excusing the murderous march of fundamental Islam.
Theoretically, If a country were to ban all Muslim immigration, would it be better or worse off? (Genuine question)
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion”
Steven Weinberg
A lot of good is done in the name of religion though Alan.
Far more damage is done in the name of religion. The world does not need religion to promote morality or as a catalyst for good deeds. Basic human nature provides enough reason to be a good person.
Yes Adam but that carries an assumption that if you remove religion you remove the good … Those same acts of good do not need religion in order to be carried out. …
And likewise if you remove religion evil will still be done but we’ve all heard of people who gained a strength to overcome an addiction or through mourning from religion.
You can’t say more evil than good has been done in the name of religion, obviously extremist actions over the past decade have given a warped image of a bad use of religion but that’s only one half of it.
It always amuses me how Alan Burke blames religion for all his woes regardless of the story. I’ve neen seen him relate the problems of the GAA and a riverdance court case to religion. Must have had a tough childhood or something to grow up to be such a sad little excuse of a man.
Everyone’s entitled to their opinion Marshall and I don’t see the harm in debating religion.
Marshall are you getting personal with me?
This story is centered on religion, hence the majority of comments are criticising Islam.
If you can refute any of the comments made then feel free to join the debate.
If you have nothing constructive to add then why bother commenting?
Angela you have my vote for comment of the week.
@Scarr – some right wing parties particularly in the States and Australia are calling for a ban on Muslim immigration arguing that Muslims do not assimilate into society and want the implementation of Islamic sharia law – I honestly haven’t read enough evidence to say better or worse off either way
Simon the integration into society is a massive problem. One only needs to look at the UK and Ireland to see that the muslim populations do not integrate. The purposely segregate themselves and stick to tight knit communities such as our friends in Clonskeagh.
Simon – are they? Don’t know how that would play here. It was something I was thinking about yesterday. Certainly there would be a reduction in terror related activities to almost nil. The uk would have saved a purported minimum £13,000,000,000 every year. It seems that Islam, or certain branches at least, are incapable of gelling with whatever neighbour they have. Even the Buddhists are fighting back. BUDDHISTS!!
@ Adam I think widening the time sample of a decade – the atrocities carried out in the name of religion, the abuse, the control & corruption far outweigh any good that was done … your example of an addict overcoming addiction through religion does occur yes – but equally using a strengths based approach through addiction counselling can also be extremely successful …
Really?! Did you even read it? Not one religion says kill anyone, not one!
Stupid people do stupid things in name of religion.
@Marshall why can’t you just make counter arguments as oppose to making personal attacks – quote and critique a point about religion if you feel it is unjustified
I have a copy of the Qu’ran, Ellie, have you? Open it up to an-Nisa 4:89 and tell me what you see. Or maybe go to the 9th Sura (9:5) and read that passage. Both speak of killing or slaying non-believers. And there are MANY MANY more besides.
A lot of those evils would of occurred had religion not existed. Look at the policies of Imperialism & the dictatorships that arose throughout the 1900′s.
WWI & WWII weren’t caused by religion nor were the massacres to create a soviet superpower motivated by a religion.
The Koran says to convert the ‘kuffar’, (infidel) by the sword if necessary. It’s all in the interpretation of ‘kuffar’, in my opinion. Originally, Christians and Jews were tolerated because of Muslim reverence for the Jewish prophets and Jesus who is revered as a prophet. But these days the extremists seem to think all non-Muslims and even any Muslim who doesn’t agree with them are fair game.
It’s not religion, per se, that we need to worry about. It’s people and their need to worship something. What occurred in Nazi Germany could indeed be described as religious in nature. A mass population of believers, unwilling to doubt, bowing before idols (swastikas, fasces, knights, Hitler), reading from a venerable book (Mein Kampf) with a ferocious zeal and willing to fight and die for their beliefs. It sounds very much like the modern Islamic fundamentalism we are currently witnessing. The same can be said for Stalin and his cult (building of statues, paintings, face on currency) and a willingness to die and kill for the sake of communism and the motherland.
Education is the key. Education encourages people to think for themselves, and not to simply lie down as sheep and follow the masses. What do fundamental Islam, fundamental Christianity, the cult of Stalin or Pol Pot, and Nazism all have in common? Poverty and a lack of, or withdrawal from, education.
Really? Have you ever read the Bible? Let’s just be thankful that we don’t see fundamentalist Christians acting on every word of their book of fairy tales in the same way that Islamic fundamentalists do.
Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of t girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, ‘Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.’ (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
All of those verses bar one are taken from the Old Testament/Torah.The teachings of Christianity are centred mainly around the New Testament.Christians have learned to ignore/disregard the nastier verses of the Bible and in comparison to the amount of nasty ones in the Koran they are few and far between .
I’m not sure what your point is,but I find it unhelpful especially when a blind man can see that it is Islam that we need to be focusing on.
I think that you should change this to “people do stupid things to religion”
Apologies, my comment was meant to be in reply to Ellie Yusupova’s earlier comment where she claimied that “Not one religion says kill anyone, not one!”.
What about the “damage” Stalin and Hitler caused in the name of anti religion?
@Paul, have you ever taken a look at the societies that existed at the time in both those countries? While not necessarily fitting the strict definition of religion (belief in a supernatural force with an explanation for life after death), most of the trappings of those societies were religious in nature. Belief without question in a particular doctrine (Nazism in the case of Germany, Communism in the case of Russia), the erection of idols and statues (swastikas, rallies, parades, marble subway stations in Moscow complete with busts of Stalin), condemnation of non-believers, the belief that your own particular group are the chosen ones (the Soviet Man vs the capitalist swine; the blonde-haired, blue-eyed Aryan), etc. etc. They may have been anti-religion in theory, but they went about it in a very religious manner.
Better off. (Genuine answer)
I am Muslim and I am proud that I am. But those ppl that commit such acts in the name of Islam, are just pathetic lunatics. The biggest sin is to kill yourself and in my country ppl that commit suicide are not allowed to be buried in the same graveyard as ppl who die. And those stories ah they are going to heaven where they are going to be awarded with so many virgins are just brainwashing that ppl who are behind this use.
As for not being part of society, lots of crap. I work, have Irish friends, my hair is not covered I go out. My daughter is not going to a Muslim school. I don’t eat pork but thats my choice and I don’t look for halal meat I buy where ever is cheaper. I am sick of women being treated like nothing in some Muslim countries and even here. I think if you live in another country you should follow their rules and not enforce your own.
This is true Scarr. And Sharia courts have been set up in Britain.
I used to think we in the West and in Russia were picking on the poor Muslims but I’m starting to change my mind when I add the two and two of a long list of terrorist activity over the last twenty years or so,all carried out in the name of Islam. Bombings, kidnapping and execution-style murder of innocent kidnap victim, to say nothing of the killing of other Muslims.
5:33
Blondie girl
Well said. You could be anyone of my French Muslim colleagues living quietly their religion
Good on you
Actually Ellie, with the greatest of respect at leastvthree religions are quite specific about this. The Old Testament is full of innjunctions to kill people, witches, gays, those who don’t worship the One True God, and the New Testament was quite sanguine about Ananias and his wife being struck dead for lying to St Paul about – you guessed it – money! While the Koran specifically enjoins conversion by the sword. So only Buddhism advocates nonviolence.
Copy and paste I hope!
Nice one COLM
A bit of a simplistic view of northern troubles. Would you believe when troubles started they were actually marching for ” one Man one vote” it had more to do with human rights than religion . And I do not believe in violence.
Comment was in response to David Harris
Religion only helps them rationalise their already psychopathic tendencies.
Couldn’t agree more Phillip. Add to that the zeal of the convert and radical Islam and it’s a dangerous mix.
@ Paul Breslin I’m not in the least surprised that there has been silence from Clonskeagh. After all the children of the Immam have gone to Egypt to support the Muslim Brotherhood. Actions speak louder than words.
What’s the bets Sky News will call her an Irish woman.
Most of the Irish media are saying she is Irish so what’s your point. By definition she is Irish.
I’d bet my house on it.
She’s probably a Protestant Muslim.
The point is Tiger. If she murdered the queen sky news would call her Irish.
If she saved the queen, sky would hail her as British.
The British can be very selective about how they portray people from the north.
Just remember. They called Seamus Heaney a “British” poet when he won the Nobel prize.
Given that she is an Irish woman then they probably will.
I see your point Derek and it is correct. Barry McGuigan from Monaghan was British when he won and Irish when he lost. Andy Murray is a Scot when he looses and British when he wins.
Tiger
Being born in Co. Down she would be entitled to hold duel citizenship, just like everybody else born within the 6 counties of Northern Ireland.
Irish British ? Nutter that’s all – no matter where she is born!!!
Too much attention being paid to the murdering cow ,we need to show sympathy towards the families of her victims.
Ha too right !
@carcu – u don’t hold a British passport if from county down. You hold a passport from great Britain and northern Ireland. If you are born on this island u are Irish.
Indeed…. And they try to claim Bono as Briti….. On second thoughts, let’s not argue that one.
Christ, guys. If she was born in NI, she is both Irish and British and there’s going to be linguistic wobbles back and forth in reporting. It’s not always a giant conspiracy.
This witch is better off dead and the only people who should mourn her are the family who lost her to extremism years ago. The rest of us should breathe easy that yet another terrorist has killed herself.
Imagine no religion, nothing to kill or die for, living for today. J. Lennon
Hopefully one day man. I long for the day when humanity can finally break free of the chains of religion and embrace it’s true potential.
Spot on Kevin
Hope everything has calmed down for ye all
Its a long time since I been on here its the same old rant and bitch @9:30 am leave it to you guys better things to do
Ah Christ almighty & Jehovah, why bring a dead insect into it.
Great quote Kevin. Imagine what humanity could achieve when people realise that life isn’t a rehearsal
Nah
Its not the fault of religion
Rather the morons that follow it
The religion actually tells them to “kill the infidel”.
The religion is very much to blame for indoctrinating these people.
Factually incorrect, Alan. You’re as misinformed as they are.
Quran (17:16) – “And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction.”
This religion is very clear throughout on the calls to arms. Islam is a warrior’s religion, that is its key strength and appeal and the reason it is causing so many problems in today’s world.
Sounds a bit like destruction of property, I don’t see the words “kill the infidel”, written there.
@ Alan…..the quote is taken out of context…as are many quotes taken from holy books to prove a point (or initiate war!). As Colin C says, you are as misinformed as them.
Kate can you shed aome more light on it then and provide the true context? Those words seem pretty clear to me.
There is no excuse for Islamic barbarity.
@Kate The quote is not taken is taken out of context.The Koran is full of similar ones.Do some research
I don’t see ” kill the infidel” in there, Alan. Is that really the best you could google?
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. – 9:5
Idolaters being the infidels against Islam here.
My use of quotations was misplaced but it is quite clear that the Quran promotes and blatantly calls for extreme violence against non-believers.
If there is another interpretation or context for these quotes I am quite open to hearing it.
first, take into account when the Quran was written…, also verse 9:5 is about the Muslims fighting Pagans for Mecca (who were a stronger and richer community at that time) in an effort to conquer Mecca.
Just like the Bible, there are many stories that are outdated…. I understand your point Alan but we are then using the same versus Terrorists use to further our point of view.
@al shamen…you do your research!
Kate the time the Quran was written is irrelevant as these verses are still used even today to promote this type of violence.
The religion actively teaches these verses as the word of Allah and encourages it’s followers to obey every word.
I cannot see how any intelligent person can establish an alternative interpretation of these words.
The historical context is that at this time, Mohamed and his followers were in a war for survival with other Arabs who were following the old polytheistic religions. The sacred months were a period of ceasefire, and the verse is an instruction to resume the war after the ceasefire. But the rest of the verse commands the early Muslims to show mercy to those who lay down their arms and join Mohammed’s followers. It is not an incitement to go out killing non-Muslims generally and for all time. In fact if you go to other parts of the quran, there is much more specific instruction on how to behave, particularly to Jews and Christians who are considered also to be people of the book. The fact that some current Muslims wilfully ignore these verses and misinterpret the one above, is no reason for non-Muslims to wilfully do the same.
I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.
Quran 8:12,
I already have Kate.The Bible does have many outdated stories although nowhere near as many warlike ones as the Koran and Christians are not being inspired by them to go out and commit mass murder.
And what do you mean by ‘we are then using the same versus Terrorists use to further our point of view’. What the hell is that supposed to mean?
Again, Morticia, this is talking about a war that was ongoing on the Arabian peninsula 1,500 years ago. It’s not an instruction to go about killing innocent people in times of peace. Try again….
Colin none of that changes the fact the Islam teaches these words to be truw and uses them to justify mass atrocities today. Ergo the religion commmands its followers to commit such acts. Ergo the religion is inherently evil.
Your interpretation of these words would be fine if that is how Islam preached them (as historical record and not a guidebook) but it does not as evidenced by the current state of Islamic extremism.
@Colin C
Who are you to say they have misinterpreted when there are many Muslim scholars who would back up their interpretation.’ there is much more specific instruction on how to behave, particularly to Jews and Christians’
Yes Colin those Jews and Christians who have accepted their second class status as’ Dhimmis’ and pay the ‘jizya’ tax
@Kate. You would be a brave person to tell a Muslim that the quotes are outdated. Unlike the Bible their book is the literal word of god. Not a translation or interpretation.
@ Keith, may I redirect your comment to Colin C and the other apologists for Islamic barbarity.
Well Alan, the Islamic world has its problems, as does the Western world. But step one is at least to not accept ignorance. Ignorance is at the heart of conflict, and by going around tarring Muslims with the same brush, we’re not doing anything to try to heal the rift. It’s a big job, but step one is trying at least to clear up the myths. S for the other guy who asks what right I have to my interpretation, well “my” interpretation is actually the pretty standard scholarly one. But Islam does not have a church system like the Christian world does. There is no Muslim pope. So of course here are corrupt imams who will use religion to further political issues. They are the noisy minority. It’s like saying all Americans are tea Party supporters.
Morticia – I wouldn’t accuse Colin of being an apologist. He is adding ti this debate by discussing interpretations of Quranic text.
Colin I would surmise that the extremists are currently in the majority. I find it disturbing that our friends in Clonskeagh have not publically condemned this atrocity. If they did so and clarified that these actions are not condoned by Islam or the Quran then your argument would have merit.
As it stands their silence is deafening.
To be clear to Morticia, I deplore what happened in Kenya. Absolutely and without quibble. What I contribute to this debate is a counterbalance to the view that these actions are compelled by the Koran, or that they are representative of Muslims generally. Personally I have known many Muslims, and still do, and would not expect any of them to have to explicitly condemn what has happened, any more than I would have to explicitly condemn rape because I am a man. Muslims I know have the same values I have when it comes to taking innocent human life. The Islamic world has its issues, no doubt. But I’d point to another book which talks about splinters, eyes and logs.
The “apologist” comment from Morticia has goaded me into revealing something here. I was at Liverpool Street on 7/7. I missed that explosion and the later one on the bus through sheer luck. I have seen Islamic terrorism in action. I doubt most people here have done anything but read about it, and googled a few well worn verses from the quran without any understand ping of what the quran is, or the historical context it was written in. Contributing to that understanding is absolutely the opposite of condoning Islamic terrorism.
Why should the mosque in Clonskeagh t condemn it ? They have nothing to do with some terrorist groups 3000km in a different continent who claim to a temporary I their religion. Should every Catholic like a little old lady in Mayo have to condemn a rapist priest halfway across the world as well ?
There are billions of people in each religion with many many variations. 1.t billion Muslims should not have to condemn what some crazy idiots claim to do in the religion they coincidentally share.
@Paul , have you forgotten the Clonskeagh 4 who rabble roused in Egypt? The Muslim Brotherhood have their European HQ in the very place you mentioned.
So Colin C was on a bus and nearly got killed. I was in Aden many years ago and didn’t get killed either but I know chaps who did. I’m sure that Islam will catch up with civilisation at some time in the future but meanwhile it is at war with us like it or not.
One thing the world should learn from Ireland is that putting a people down does not help them to “catch up”. What is needed is more understanding across all peoples and not fictions that we are somehow at war with each other, and the other side is the devil. That attitude in itself belongs in 1600′s Europe, so maybe you are the one who needs to do the catching up.
@Paul Breslin
They should not only condenm it,they should be out on the streets waving placards that condenm it.Why should they do this?They shoulld do this because if some makes a cartoon about the prophet thousands are on the streets protesting.If someone burns a Koran thousands of them are on the streets protesting.If someone writes a book thousands of them are on the streets protesting.
But if someone commits mass murder in the name of their religion,not a peep.
If someone beheads a priest in the name of their religion,not a peep.
If someone shoots a pregnant woman in the name of their religion,not a peep.
It’s all about perception,and the perception to most non-Muslims who have their eyes open,is that Muslims care more about someone drawing a cartoon of the prophet,or writing a book they consider to be blasphemous,than they do about the victims of mass murder commited in the name of their religion.
It’s all well and good Colin to say most Muslims don’t follow these outdated and out of context quotes. But why do we never hear condemnation from these moderates?
And why is it so easy to radicalise Muslims? I’ll tell you why, because most of them believe its right, that’s why. Sure, they might not be willing to do the fighting themselves but they quietly support it.
Islam is an evil scourge on this planet.
What does it matter who comes out and condemns it…does it make it any better? Generalising all muslims saying they believe the same as Islamist militants is rediculous!
Islam and Islamism are very different. While the former is a religion, the latter is merely a political, “anti-” ideology that spews hatred.
Ignorence is obviously not only alive and well among Muslims but fairly prominent in the western world too (especially reading some of the views on here!)
Education is key!
Maybe you don’t hear the condemnation from Muslim leaders because you don’t look for it. http://allafrica.com/stories/201309230775.html
And manonthestreet, that kind of thinking in the uk during the NI troubles led to a lot of anti-Irish nonsense there. We don’t need to repeat that mistake here with Muslims.
@Kate
Nobody said all Muslims are militants.But most militants or terrorists are Muslim.
‘Islam and Islamism are very different’ That is an extremely misguided and nonsensical statement.Islam spawned Islamism.They are extremely closely related as the Islamism doctrine is derived from the Koran and Sunnah.
‘Education is key!’ Yes it is the key to radicalisation and with Saudi funded Wahabbi Madrasses being built across Europe(one to be built soon in North Dublin) and other places,it is not going to stop anytime soon.
The’ ignorant’ one is the one who refuses to believe when all the evidence is in plain view.
@Colin C
A couple of wish washy words from some Imam that everybody will forget in a day or two.We have heard it all before.Actions speak louder than words.
OK. Move the goalposts. People were wondering why Muslims weren’t condemning this. But now “you’ve heard it all before”. Way to be consistent.
Al
Just to thank you for your posts, thoughtful intelligent and fair
Latest reports say the White Widow was killed yesterday
Good riddance to the Evil wench
So now she gets to see her ‘paradise?’ She’s in for a shock then is say. Good riddance to narrow minded rubbish.
Does she get the 147 virgins?
147 virgins get a go on her.
Shane, why wouldn’t she ‘get a go’ on them??
Hope they have 147 bags to put over her head ugly bitch
Kirby, do you comment on the appearance of male terrorists or just the female ones?
Tommy what point are you trying to make?
That people like Shane and Kirby are misogynists and the issue at hand doesn’t really matter to them.
The issue matterw to us all as Islamic Extremism is growing in the western world and it won’t be too long before we see such terror on our own shores.
We are right to question and ridicule this religion to show it up for the ridiculousness it is.
You’re a miserable sod,i was trying to inject some humour into the comments.we are not all miserable gits like you.
@Alan C
You seem to be suggesting that we are all mis-interpreting the Holy Text in believing it to be encouraging violence and non-tolerance of others.
Regardless of the interpretation that the commenters have on here, the logic of your argument is that all the Islamic fundamentalists have it wrong too as they are the ones attacking in its name.
It doesn’t matter if she is Irish or English, bottom line is she is/was a gobs*ite and the rest of the world is better off without her. I feel so sorry for her family though,they must be devastated.
If you are a champion golfer or pretty drug mule from over the border, The Journal wholeheartedly embraces you as being ‘Irish’ However, if you are a terrorist they label you as British…odd that
Probably something to do with the surnames.
Lewthwaite is a fairly Irish name alright Angela.
The journal were quoting other sources who were referring to a “British woman”. They themselves did not label her as such
The title is “Co. Down born”. Don’t think the Journal gets their headlines from HM Govn sources..
Plenty of British newspapers labelled the pretty drug mule with the hair as British, yet she was still described as Irish here.
Doubt the surnames matter, George Best, Phil Coulter…hardly Irish yet we consider them as our own don’t we…double standards perhaps?
I don’t see the problem if shes from northern Ireland she’s technically British we will just have to except that for now
She was travelling on a British passport. The Kenyan authorities called her British. You want to claim a British terrorist as Irish, go ahead, personally I think we’ve enough already.
No Angela. I’d consider then Northern Irish or British.
She has travelled on a British passport
So does Rory Mclroy
She described herself as Irish!
Amy, her father was a British army soldier sent to NI during the troubles to quell the irish, who then married a local Protestant girl. When choosing her passport, she chose British. Honestly I don’t think she grew up dancing jigs and singing the fields of athenry.
I’m talking about the girl caught with the drugs in Peru! In the video that shows them being questioned she said she was Irish!!
As a matter of interest, which of these disqualifies her as being Irish. Being Protestant, not doing Irish dancing or singing Irish folk music? I know a lot of people you should inform are not actually Irish. They’ll be shocked.
Sorry Amy, took you up wrong. Colin, context, read the comment again. The point isn’t that all Irish people do, it’s that British people certainly don’t. Jesus, spoon feeding eh?
We’ll let the Brits have this one without any argument.
which is the most important ? if she is Irish or if she murdered men women and children ? only i Ireland could this discussion be about what passport she carried . FFS!!
One Brit Media source are describing her as from the “Home Counties” and the daughter of a British Soldier, I doubt she considers herself Irish…
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/white-widow-samantha-lewthwaite-profile-1175021
well said Patricia!
@Amy, I just don’t see why these are even litmus tests for being Irish. If you were English and using these narrow stereotypes of what qualifies one to be Irish, I’d think you were pretty ignorant of Ireland. Why not throw in a bit red hair and freckles in there too.
She lived in Aylesbury, doubt if she lived long in Banbridge at all,
She also wants to set up an Islamic state in Somalia, so I doubt the whole Catholic/Protestant thing is of any interest to her.
Hard to be a feminist Islamic extremist when you can’t drive yourself to the shop for supplies.
why is it always the ugly ones?
Might be prettier with a niqab
People killing over “ideas” and fairytales written in books once again
Google white widow and cannabis plants offered :-/
Nasty nasty piece of work: typical fanatical convert. If she is dead it’s a good thing.
How her family must be ashamed. Lots of fall out when a family member ends up a terrorist.
White Widow, Mmmmm lovely!! :)
Don’t think religion has anything to do with it, some people are just evil, and use it as a cover
Show me a religion that justifies shooting dead an 8 year old girl -an I will show u a liar, u would have to wonder killing a load of shoppers in Kenya what would that achieve in the
Whole terror world, seems to me a few terror suspects hiding out in Kenya got bored and attacked here cause they couldn’t go anywhere else- in the name of religion or some belief
Christianity does a pretty good job there
“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
@Alan Burke.
That is taken from the Old Testament.The teachings of Christianity are based for the most part around the New Testament.I.m not sure your agenda is but if you are trying to say Christianity is just as bad as Islam you are being disingenuous.All religions are not the same.
The old testament is still preached as fact today in churches and schools (genesis, creation, moses etc).
You cannot cherrypick the bits you like and disregard those you do not.
If the old testament is now irrelevant then surely the vatican would announce as such and remove all reference to it and refute all of it’s claims.
I stated Christianity is based mostly on the New Testament,around the life of Jesus Christ.That is a fact.And yes Christians do cherrypick from the Bible and disregard the nastier bits and that’s a good thing.
If only Muslims could do the same,but Islam has not been through a Reformation and an Enlightenment.
@Alan I’d second that, no amount of selective theology or moderate interpretation can excuse the aggression at the heart of most major religions. Nor can it excuse the fact that they’re all based on fairy tales and nonsense irregardless.
Yes, they use it as a cover. They do tend to pick the one specific religion for that cover though.
Irish, English, Martian. Doesn’t matter. Good riddance to the b#%ch. if ever there was a reason to wear a burka there it is. ‘Beauty is only skin deep but ugliness goes right through to the bone’
C yoU Next Tuesday
The religion of peace.
Stalin was an atheist and managed to be responsible about 20 million deaths, Something atheist tend to forget that .
I don’t think Stalin ever user his non-belief to justify his murder.
Communism was his religion, as fascism was for Hitler. Atheism, by definition, doesn’t require belief in anything that isn’t immediately obvious.
Stalin was officially atheist, but we can never know for sure what his true beliefs were. Remember, he did train to become an Orthodox priest.
Actually the Soviet state was committed to the destruction of religion.It destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with atheistic propaganda, and generally promoted ‘scientific atheism as the truth that society should accept….. So Stalin did use his non-belief to justify murder !
I stand corrected, Pól, although I don’t think a comparison between theism and atheism is relevant in this context. People do keep banging on about religious ideology being behind most of the world’s horror, and this article is specifically about someone who is murdering because of a possible religious motivation. We are all aware of the ludicrous thinking that is theism and the quite clear good sense behind atheism, but a debate on the moral horrors perpetrated by a now defunct atheist state is not necessary here.
She might get her own mural before George Best does.
Ding ding the witch is dead
A quick scan through the comments,and I can see most poster are blaming religion,as if all religions are to blame and there all equally as bad as each other.There not and it’s a lazy way of thinking.It was one religion that was the inspiration for this madness and for over 90% percent of all terrorist attacks.
It was not Buddhism.it was not Taoism.It was not Hinduism.It was not Sikhism.It was not Judaism.It was not Christianity.It was not Zoroastrianism.
Indeed in recent years Islam has been the underlying factor in the majority of these atrocities.
However one must not forget or forgive the historical atrocities committed in the name of other religions. It shows that any and all religions can be a catalyst for violence.
Comparisons to historical events and other religions are odious as the dead are counted and laid to rest in Kenya and Pakistan and Syria and on and on.There is no justification or excusing the murderous march of fundamental Islam.
Most of the other religions have reconciled modern day values with their more barbaric customs and none commit daily mass murder on the scale that Islam does.Islam is still rooted firmly in the 7th century.To talk about all religions as equal is a P.C. Leftist fallacy.
Atrocities have been committed under the guise of Christianity in the last 50 years (magdalene, child abuse etc.)
It is true that there have been no mass murders but perhaps these crimes are more serious. To dismiss them and is disingenuous.
As a member of ‘Mothers against Armed Nuns’ I too was appalled at the carnage and bloodshed in those magdelane laundries and was glad when the Sisters converted to the RoP.
Historically, christianity was in no way adverse to genocide. Religious other than Islam have moved away from overt aggression because it became detrimental to their spread, violence generally being inverse to the degree of civilisation. Islam is still at a stage where mass murder is considered a reasonable theological tool, civilisation will change that, education will eventually make Islam an irrelevancy.
I’m not dismissing anything Alan.But no priest was inspired to commit child abuse by the teachings of Christianity.They were not religiously inspired to commit these despicable acts.I can just as easily say atrocities have been commited by the BBC etc etc.
You are the one who is being disingenuos with this line of thinking.
@Shane
I admire your optimism that things will eventually improve through education,but I do not share your it.Education in the Muslim word especially the Middle Eastern countries is carried out for the most part in Madrasses(Islamic schools).They bare little resemblance to their Catholic or Christina counterparts where (despite what a lot of posters here might say) for the most part kids get a good education.
They are more concerned with Koran recitals than and actual education,and in many cases especially the ones with Saudi or Qatari funding are responsible for the radicalisation of young Muslims.Centres of education they are not.
And now because of the toxic doctrine of Multiculturalism one of these centres of ‘educational excellence’ is being built in North Dublin backed by Arabian investment.Madness.
@al shemen, I have been reading your comments trying to get a feel for your agenda here, however your last comment is absolute crap and I would like to know where you get your facts from especially in relation to Qatar of where they fund radicalisation of young Muslims….I cannot speak for Saudi as I have not lived there! However the majority of schools here are American or many students are provided funding to attend schools in the west. Or was that just another sweeping statement?
When there is reference to lack of education, it is mainly focused on North Africa.
I have no agenda except the truth.Judging from your comment I’m guessing you live there.Surely you know the state religion of Qatar is the extreme Wahabbi version of Islam? Surely you know Qatar funds Islamic extremists in Syria?You know those nice people that chop apostates heads off.
When I talked about funding for religious schools I was not talking about in Qatar itself the Qataris are already fully indoctrinated into their Wahhabism ,I’m talking about in places like Pakistan,Afghanistan and even Europe.Are you even aware that Doha has a Taliban office?
@ Al shamen
I cannot speak for Kate but I do live in Qatar and am fully aware of the state religion. I am also fully aware that people here can practice Christianity, can drink alcohol and can purchase pork, things many in Ireland think are banned. I also have a number of friends teaching here and all would testify to the completely false view you hold on schools here. I would guess you have never visited Qatar or indeed anywhere else in the Middle East otherwise you would know these things.
As for the politics of the country, I have a number of issues with it and whilst I don’t agree I can say the same for many countries. Eg, USA/ France/UK are backing a number of groups in Syria with suspicious origins/motives which has led to the delay in lethal weaponry being supplied to them.
As for the Taliban office, it was opened and closed within a week. It was hoped that some form of peace deal could be negotiated between them and the Afghan government, Qatar offered to facilitate this and an office was opened. Upon the breakdown of the talks (over a flag flying at their office) it was subsequently closed.
As you have no agenda I assume you will accept this as the truth from someone who lives here.
atrocities have been carried out in the name of many religions, although repeatedly pointing this out as though it were some profound insight is unhelpful. Are we not to condemn these acts of terrorism and instead feel bad about ourselves because of what people in the past who shared some of our beliefs did? Atrocities have been carried out to stamp out religion too.
Apart form the Taliban office being closed down,I already knew all of these things
.Like Dubai and Abu Dhabi where I have been before to answer your question about whether I have been to the ME,Westerners and others(mostly slave labour from the Indian sub-continent)are facilitated to keep their oil industry running but as I’m sure you are aware they are still subject to the hideous Sharia .Maybe you should read my comment again regarding the schools, I doubt it very much your friends are teaching in Wahabbi madrassas.
I agree with you re. USA/France/UK policy in Syria.It’s madness
@al shemen
You have raised so many other topics with your last comment, we could be here all night discussing them. As Paul G has already pointed out the Taliban office was only opened to facilitate communication and was closed a week later. I will not even start a debate on the Syrian conflict, as I don’t support either side. As opposed to getting carried away and going off topic, my first statement still stands…. I don’t see the point of expecting a statement from a Muslim mosque in Dublin on the situation in Nairobi. As for being to Dubai and Abu Dhabi, they are very liberal and progressive which makes me wonder how you came to your conclusions on Islam. I may be inclined to merit your comments if you had lived in Saudi or North Africa.
I already acknowledged what Paul said about the Taliban office.For the Westerner who does not break the rules mayb ,but If you believe Dubai and Abu Dhabi are very ‘liberal’ and ‘progressive’ it;s obvious you know little of the true nature of the regime that runs these places http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/22/us-emirates-norway-pardon-idUSBRE96L0F720130722 .
Exactly
You have already used the word: enlightenment
Intelligent questions posed > 200 years ago
Prefer Voltaire to the Koran
Hrar, hear.
To be fair Alan – the greatest mass murdering dictators in the 20th Century had nothing to do with religion (except with cult of the personality) – Mao (atheist), Stalin (atheist), Pol Pot (atheist), Hitler (nominally a catholic but never used religion as a justification, nazisim was the religion). If there was no religion people would find another convenient cover for committing acts of evil. Saying that the removal of religion removes the problems of the world is simplistic. It seems to me atheism is taking on the trappings of religion with the fervour of it adherents.
Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot as communists, Hitler as a fascist were figure heads in a different belief system, merely religious surrogates and like all religions, the early years were steeped in blood. The difference being that modern methods made the scale of the mass murder all the more horrific. Remember, religion is as much about the foundation of a belief system as the existence of a supposed after life.
Not correct many Nazis thought they were doing God’s work. Certainly Goebbels did. Their belt buckles said ‘God is with us’.
Hitler referenced God many times in his writings before and after being Dictator.
well said Rob. All belief systems can be used to dehumanise others, and political ones are a lot worse than the more traditional ones.
Tim, I can’t really think of much worse than being burnt at the stake for being a heretic or a witch. Burning at the stake was almost exclusively the punishment for being of the “wrong” faith. Witch burning became all the rage after the publication of the “Malleus Maleficarum”,written by two Jesuits and full of the theology of the day concerning all things witchcraft. And the interesting thing is that while most women witches were burnt at the stake male witches were mostly strangled.
How quickly the massacre of 81 Christians in the All Saints Church, Peshawar,Pakistan has slipped from the headlines to be replaced by lots of concern for a nutter from Down.
Who’s showing concern for a nutter from Down?
Declan did you read the part where I said I was not condoning this lunatic. I was commenting on the fact that the British government has known about her activities for years. She was hardly a megre extremist, this is hardly a shock for anyone whose ever read about her.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/who-is-the-white-widow-samantha-lewthwaite-29599011.html
How can the lefties call anyone racist when questioning this cult? The ideology which is Islam has no place in the western world especially in its 7th century barbaric form
Here’s an interesting article on the Beeb about Lewthwaite and the process she may have gone through to become the belle of the bomb: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-24218189
I have been informed by a friend in the British military that they have active boots on the ground assisting to help the Kenyans,the yanks are there too.ive worked with the Kenyan army before with the un and their standard of soilder is poor.such a needless loss of life
I think the term “Technical advisors” is a colossal wink towards that fact anyway.
She was more dedicated to her cause than any of the men I’ve read about. Not applauding or condoning the horrible crimes she has committed but she seems more of a mastermind than a follower.
Are you for real. ..
That’s something new … Feminist Islam. Should go down a treat in Saudi.
Back to bed there Michelle
lol. feminism alive and well.
@silentbob2012 are you serious, or do you genuinely not follow the news? Have you never heard of the Black Widows, otherwise known as the Brides of Allah? This particular group of female terrorist goes back to 2000. I remember living in Russia at the time of the Dubrovka Theatre siege, in which there were countless of these female Islamicist terrorists. And what about these female Muslims: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/01/iran-calls-on-islamic-states-to-form-joint-military-power/
True Brian. There were some women terrorists in the seige at that school in Beslan. Women are allowed by fundamentalists to play a role when it suits their agenda.
Just a touch of irony there Benny… put your soapbox away for another while.
Tks Alan, and it’s 72 virgins.
Michelle, on a side note, use the reply button and your comments will stay connected to those you wish to reply to.
Cheers;)
The revenge of the White Widow.
doesn’t matter if she was irish ,british or from the planet zog, the sooner the human race realises that there is no god, no allah, no supream being of any kind or name, the better. ALL religions use terrorism of one sort or another to ‘spread the word’, wake up world ! religion is just a bunch of men who want to extoll power over other men, nothing to do with invisable beings, miracles or any of the other bull shit that the so called leaders of these religions would have you believe, end of the day those that run these religions are only after your money, your possesions and your land. it’s the worlds oldest and biggest con trick.
You are a light hearted soul aren’t you!!
actually david i am very ‘light hearted’ though i cant say im “a light hearted soul ” as i dont believe there is such a thing as a soul, except of course an ‘arse soul’ of which there are many!
Such as yourself?
C’mon the PWA
Haha
The dead in Nairobi and Peshawar are not yet cold and the journalistas are queuing up to justify the slaughter. Sickening.
Sad thing is her granny has been hospitalised due to stress being related to her and had carry a personal alarm in case she was contacted by her . Didn’t I read she was killed in the attacks .?
I’m sure granny is not deluded in any way. This woman has been at the fore front of extremism for years.
Cardiff has a large Somali population which has been there for ages, wonder if any of the terrorists came from there?
Yet another ‘gift’ from Northern Ireland – another religious nut
It appears that she was born in Aylesbury, in England rather than Co Down. Although her parents did live there briefly.
She has issues!
She doesn’t have them now, Paul. She’s dead apparently.
Just a quick question about Islam and the Koran. Now I know that the bible is pretty muddy in that it’s been translated and retranslated many times. Has the Koran been through anything similar?
The Koran is preserved in Arabic. It’s translated, but the Arabic version is the master copy.
The Torah used in Jewish rituals is still copied by hand as far as I know. The Bible has an original Jewish version the Masoretic(?). If you read a translation -I’ve only got as far as Genesis – you’ll find it’s like and yet unlike our Old Testament as the original Christian translation (a Latin translation by St Jerome) was an interpretation adhering to Christian values.
I haven’t seen a comment blaming everything on the yanks yet…..disappointing day on thejournal.ie :P
F CKING BITCH.
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