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Updated Monday, 3 November 2014
LAST WEEK THEJOURNAL.IE contacted 225 Oireachtas members to see who intends on paying water charges – and who doesn’t.
Of the 171 politicians who responded, 17 told us they would refuse to pay their bill. Mary Lou McDonald, Pearse Doherty and Gerry Adams have subsequently said they will NOT pay, bringing to 20 the number of elected representatives refusing to comply.
The following TDs, and one senator, belong in the ‘no’ camp:
Some of them elaborated on their decision. Here’s what they said:
Tommy Broughan wants Irish Water to be abolished and for local authorities to re-take control of water services.
I’ve always been opposed to water charges, I walked out of the Dáil when the Bill went through.
The water tax is the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Richard Boyd Barrett
The level of non-cooperation and non-engagement with Irish Water shows that the Government should just give up now.
Dessie Ellis
I’ve made it clear I won’t be paying them, but I’m leaving it up to others to make their own decision.
I can well afford to pay water charges, but in solidarity with those who can’t, I will not be paying them.
I think it’s an unjust charge. Irish Water will eventually be privatised, the way it’s been set up is appalling.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn
I’m not paying, but I nor Sinn Féin are advocating a ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ stance as it is an issue of personal choice and reflecting personal circumstances.I will stand with families regardless of their position on payment/non-payment.
Catherine Murphy
I am not opposed to a conservation approach to water charging; i.e. everyone gets a free allowance sufficient for cooking or hygiene, using the average consumption figures from other countries, and over and above that excess could be charged for.
I also don’t believe a big quango is required.
Senator Marie Louise O’Donnell
It’s a tough question to answer. Unless it’s enshrined in the Constitution that it won’t be privatised – then, under the current loose legislation, it’s a ‘No’. Though I do believe water must be paid for.
The following politicians don’t know if they will pay the charges or not:
Seán Fleming is one of the deputies on the fence, telling us:
I’ll wait and see … maybe water charges will be dropped before a bill arrives.
Senator Fidelma Healy-Eames is also undecided:
Irish Water needs to be disbanded and the Government needs to start again. It’s a complete mess.The Government needs to make up its mind whether its goal is water conservation or collection of a tax. You can only have conservation when everyone has a meter so that is not working.There is no public confidence in Irish Water. From what I hear and see, I expect there will be a protest of mass civil disobedience against payment and I’m talking from rural Ireland too, not just urban Ireland.
Maureen O’Sullivan
[The Government] should put the whole thing on hold until there’s a fairer deal, but also, in principle, I have a problem with the way water has become a profit-making commodity.I wouldn’t encourage people to break the law and the legality involved is really the only reason I would even consider paying the charges.
Independent Senator Gerard Craughwell said that while he intends on registering for water charges, he will refuse to share his PPS number. Fianna Fáil TD Willie O’Dea did not repsond to our survey but recently said he would also not be giving his PPS number to Irish Water.
Craughwell added:
I would support a referendum on the ownership of Irish Water as I have a real fear that it will be privatised.
123 of the 169 politicians who responded to the survey said that they intend to pay.
Some 24 TDs and Senators said that they are not eligible to pay the charges as they have private wells or are on group water schemes.
The following members of the Oireachtas, including Environment Minister Alan Kelly, did not respond to the poll:
Sinn Féin TD Seán Crowe told us that he didn’t want to share whether or not he’d be paying water charges in case it influenced others to follow his lead.
*Senator Jimmy Harte is currently recovering from a head injury incurred during a fall last year.
Additional reporting: Hugh O’Connell and Dan Mac Guill
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Well done Charlie. Another boost for economic migrants,welfare tourists etc. We are a great little country
@Leo Lalor: most Irish citazens returning home to live here with their foreign wives/husband’s are actually highly skilled. Also the government for once is sorting out immigration paths for those impacted by brexit. Absolutely it will need to be policed properly but it’s making the immigration policy fairer.
@Leo Lalor: you seem to have missed the part where these ‘migrants’ will be working and paying tax. We have an extreme skills shortage in many sectors in Ireland. By your logic all Irish people should only partner with their own kind and if not feck off to their partners country to work. Would that make the Irish person an economic migrant and welfare tourist then? oh it’s so confusing when you put the shoe on the other foot. Oh I get it now there is no logic just prejudice.
@seanmccann: Exactly and having to go through a similar process myself there are plenty of checks carried out for both the applicant and their spouse. It’s not the “one for everybody in the audience” type of thing that some people believe it to be.
@Leo Lalor: The Irish partner will have to show evidence that they can financially support the non eu partner. Over the last 10 years, they were pretty strict on this
@seanmccann: ” Also the government for once is sorting out immigration paths for those impacted by brexit. ”
Brexit has nothing to do with it really.
If an Irish citizen was over in the UK, they are exercising their EU Treaty Rights. While we can not normally use EU Free movement rights while in Ireland (and thus have to rely on Irish immigration law, which has its issues) , in this case, where the Irish person returns to Ireland, after spending 1-2 years in the UK (6 months might suffice), with their non EU partner/spouse, they can invoke EU law.
Why does that matter? Better protections. EU law give the Irish government SFA discretion. You meet the conditions, boom, you get a decision which should be successful and entitled to a quick decision (well, that is what EU says) . Relying on Irish law, a lot of discretion is afforded.
@Leo Lalor: Leo, I’d be grateful if you could share with us how to take advantage of the welfare system without first working, paying tax, paying PRSI etc. You seem to be in the know. Even free dental work would be sufficient. Thanks
@Christy Dolan: look at what Boris is doing with residencey rights in the UK. Many Irish citazens are going to choose to leave as their residencey is no longer gauerenteed. Join the dots.
@LittleBee: and so many on the take little bee. As for logic I never mentioned stick with your own. Open your eyes. Look at the social welfare immigration lawyers bills and housing and accommodation bills for these spongers. I have no problem with people who contribute to our economy. I have a problem with being hammered by the tax man to pay for people who won’t work and no matter what s done for them find fault. We are fools.
@Leo Lalor: totally missing the point again. This is referring to the partners of Irish people who want to return home to work and is specifically so the non EU partner can work as soon as they get here where previously they had to be supported by their Irish partner for up to a year. They cannot claim any benefits as they are non eu in fact they cannot even be considered as a dependent of the Irish individual if they were to claim benefits because our system only considers the income of a de facto partner for means testing but not for the payment of benefits. You know what else is a drain on society …tax evasion and high earners with hot shot accountants finding all the loop holes. But like your arguement that has diddly squat to do with the actual topic in the article.
That’s absolutely brilliant news, if it turns out to be as good as it sounds. At present the most suitable place for me and my Brazilian partner is Australia. We both have PR and enjoy our time here however while I respect the rules etc and understand the need for checks and balances, the thought of coming home to apply and being the sole earner for one year was taking the piss. It was a big off putter on me deciding to come home. This is a big change. Most welcome. I’m sure there’s plenty of us out there who welcome the efficiency.
Why does our government feel the need to have such an open door policy toward immigration?
@Pat Baker: because sometimes people who aren’t from the same country fall in love and get married and they should be allowed to live in the same country as each other. Should we all just never leave the country and never let anyone in and only let Irish people marry other Irish people?
@Sam Harms: Absolutely agree. But it needs to be policed properly to prevent abuse. In many industries worker are internationally mobile. If Irish citizens want to come back home then they and their families should be welcome. I was in a generation where many had to leave to find opportunities to work. Most of these people learned valuable skills and their return to the country enabled the high tech economy. Having seen the hoops they had to jump through to get visas for their spouses was rediclous. It was practically anti family. Also this legislation is coming in as a result of brexit.
@Pat Baker: Its not an open door policy it’s called preclearence. The procedure is the same but the checks are done before you enter the country meaning you have permission to work before you get here or even have a job lined up. It is simply removing the financial burden of waiting a year to get your working visa. It means partners of returning Irish can work and pay tax as soon as they get here. Why would you be opposed to that.
@Sam Harms: ignore him.
@Pat Baker: It’s a sensible policy for realistic scenarios and it’s not the open door policy that you’re making it out to be. There’s plenty of information that would need to be provided for the application to be successful such as proof of a relationship, proof of living together…
@LittleBee: he’s opposed to it because some people see the word “immigration” and the racist, intolerant, bigot switch turns on. They can’t see past that to look at the positive impact that immigrants have on a country, like bringing new skills, paying into the tax system etc.
@Sam Harms: It is so tiresome
@Pat Baker: It is NOT an open door policy. There is pre clearance required. You have to prove the relationship and you have to prove financial ability to support partner.
Before this, you had to apply for a visa for the Non EU spouse (who might need to visa) simply to enter the country. That can take 2-4 months, maybe more. Sometimes you need to appeal.
Once they enter, they then have to make a residency application, which can take anything from 1 week to months.
This scheme seeks to do all in one go, before they come, before they risk over staying after the visa expired.
They still need to prove that they are a legitimate relationship. It is an Irish person bringing home their family member. Hardly the same as some scam artist “asylum seeker” from a safe country .
@Pat Baker: I’m not aware of the government having an open door policy towards immigration, but one reason I can think of, is the various benefits that immigration brings to the country.
In many cases immigrants are already highly educated and highly skilled, as as such help contribute to our skills shortage. Also being highly skilled, and thus highly paid, they’ll also be highly taxed…
@Pat Baker: you mean like the ones that absorbed millions of Irish emigrants over the centuries?
I’ve experience with INIS and there’s no grey area if your papers are not in order forget about a visa.
@Marianne:Has Regina decided whether they need the PSC to apply for the passport?
Anything possible of diluting the anti fg voters who are a rock of sense and are sick of the waste of tax payers money and multiple scandals
Great news. This would have been a not insignificant deterrent to Irish expats who wanted to return home.
Great news. Lot of Irish groups abroad have worked hard for this to be considered. Lot of us Irish have great partners from around the world we met while working abroad, who are highly educated and see Ireland as a good option to raise a family at some stage. No doubt so many can contribute greatly to our communities. This removes some doubts about any move home. Having had my Canadian girlfriend visit home recently who comes from an immigrant family herself she got the greatest welcome from my closest family and friends I could have asked for. Sometimes I forgot how great people at home are. Bigots really are a minority and tend to act as keyboard warriors unfortunately I have to see here online. Some people just have no comprehension of change being positive
Very sensible move by the Government here. Will definitely help reduce the financial stress upon a couple moving back to Ireland where one of the couple is not an EU citizen.
Who makes these decisions
How long will this process take
@Marianne: you’d just have to meet the criteria and provide evidence if I understand correctly
The Irish partner has to be a CSEP holder, not just any one bringing their non EU partner home can apply. Very misleading article
@Caoimhín O Neill: My understanding of that link is that the csep holder is not Irish either and wants to bring their partner. Same as the Australian visa system.
What the journal is referring to is de facto partners of Irish citizens, who, as they are Irish, do not need any special status such as csep or visa to work here. Why would we only want Irish citizens to return if they held a csep?
@Caoimhín O Neill: the CSEP announcement is from April. This is separate by the looks: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/press-release-new-preclearance-process-to-be-introduced-to-help-non-eea-de-facto-partners-of-Irish
What about refugees from Brexit land?
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