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THE COMPANY DEVISING Ireland’s new Eircode system has removed more than 90,000 combinations that could be deemed offensive.
Liam Duggan of Capita Ireland told the Oireachtas Communications Committee that ”rude or offensive words” and real names have been removed from the system.
“As an exercise we bought online scrabble and so on and we looked at all the four letter words and three letter words and so on,” he said.
“If you put ‘F’ and anything in the next field and then a ‘CK’ it looks like a word. So ‘FECK ‘will not be in there.”
Duggan also confirmed that the letters ‘IRA’ would not be combined in that order.
He added that employees who visually went through the combinations that were left found some “unexpected things”, like the fact two ‘V’s’ beside each other look like a ‘W’.
The system includes 25 characters, meaning there are 390, 625 possible combinations for the second-half of the code.
Each code will consist of seven digits – a three-digit ‘routing key’, and 4-digit ‘unique identifier’.
Capita has also removed letters and numbers where there is potential confusion. For example, ‘O’ and ‘Q’ are not included, but ’0′ (zero) is. Similarliy, ‘l’ and ‘i’ have been removed so as not to be confused with ’1′.
The letter ‘M’ has also been removed for “verbal recognition” reasons as it sounds too like ‘N’.
Duggan said that when the system is introduced, by mid-2015, Eircode’s website will include a ‘look-up tool’ that can be used for free about 15 times a day, and more often in the run-up to Christmas.
A contact centre will also be established to deal with public queries.
Duggan noted that Eircode is in with Google Maps about embedding the system in its service. He also said there would be a code of practice in place regarding selling on the postcode database to service providers.
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Two V’s together look like a W.
This vvas unexpected apparently.
My nine year old could have told them that and only charged them a kinder egg in consultancy fees.
Heads up lads, she also knows that 80085 looks like “BOOBS”.
I’d be more concerned that that codes are totally random. So your neighbours house code will be the polar opposite to yours. No sequential system.
I see your point James but what happens if you live in a rural area and in 5 years time there’s a new house built between you and your neighbour. that’d really throw a spanner into the works if the whole system was sequential unless the government plans on banning one off houses which opens up a whole new can of worms.
On a side note I’m in favour of the postcode system and I’m just hoping the government dont screw it up as badly as the have with other projects.
I hope they have not used either F or S, as they sound quite similar over the phone.
S’s and F’s don’t usually get mixed up when they are in a commonly known word or name, but when you have a random sequence of letters then this could be a problem.
It would be better to avoid these letters altogether than to run the risk.
Dan only aspects of the code need to be sequential to be useful, Sticking a house between you and your neighbour does not create a problem at all for codes such as Loc8 code. It will not in the slightest throw a spanner in the works.
The sequential argument is a red herring used to justify a bloated, expensive database that can and will be sold to interested parties.
In an ideal world there probably should a ban, or at least heavy restriction, on one-off housing, and there’s a whole load of sound reasons for that.
The problem is that we have very poorly planned towns and villages, so a lot of rural people still see the one-off house as the ideal or best solution to their housing needs. And they’re not wrong.
An emphasis on creating strong, well serviced towns and villages that are suitable for and attractive to families and communities is probably the first thing that should be done before we pull the brakes entirely on one-off housing development.
Rob, Loc8 deals with that as well as many other issues in its design – in public use since 2010!
Did Mr Duggan say he used Scrabble or Scramble to design Eircodes?
Did they spot that if you use uu it, it would look like a ω.
What about leet speak/text? How are they going to avoid that as well? Bunch of N00B5.
Another Φne mεss ωε’vε gotten ourselves into.
Waiting patiently to see the hames the government will make of this one. How much is it costing us again?
I heard the Eircode CEO on Newstalk a few days ago say it costing €25 million to launch.
Scrabble ? Real companies write algorithms for this type of thing.
So you’re probably not paying for that either.
€27 million actually, €10 millon of which was given to an post who incidentally lost the postcode tender…not bad for 2nd place
Some say Irish water will have the eircode.. IW 1APRL
€10m to An Post to use their address database – a commercial transaction not a consolation prize.
As it stands, the Postcode system is already dead in the water as it’s functionally not fit for purpose.
Or FG or FF
or SF
why do we meed a private company to do it.
is there no one in the civil service who can do this?
…or even use the much simpler system that was offered for free…
“Not in my contract”…
Brown envelope politics.
Think you got your N mixed up with and M there… it’s need not meed… good job it wasn’t for a postcode you could have ended up on the wrong side of the country.
You’d really trust the civil service with somethin like this!? You’d have a post code like ASS O0O0….or BOOB :)
Because they lack the expertise and it would be more expensive.
Because the company would own the rights to it and could charge an post, and any other company fees for using it on their website or for making deliveries etc.
Nothing in this world is free.
The British multinational Capita PLC that won the tender also lack the expertise, they have never rolled out a postcode before and their previous experience in IRL was purchasing NAMA loans.
Liam Duggan, MD of Capita was asked some technical questions at a GIS conference recently and responded by saying “ask me something about sport, i know all about sport”.
This Government and the puppet master in chief have complete contempt for the civil service. I am pretty sure the civil service would have done a better job with Irish water than the much vaunted experienced utility did and I am pretty sure that the rabid kerryman at the centre of things is largely responsible for that debacle. I still struggle to understand why a six digit GPS code was inadequate as a post code. I guess consultants (=failed accountants) have to create justifications for their existence.
Why did the government need to “re-invent the wheel”. The ‘Loc8′ code system was developed by an Irish company and is in use with the Garmin Sat Nav and was offered to the government a few years ago. It was possible for a property owner to locate their property on a satellite street map so the code would be highly accurate. Also, it was possible to get a code for the nearest bus stop or best point of entry to the property to provide accurate navigation for the visitor.
Because the company owned the codes and could easily charge for its use. So courier companies, websites, government agencies would all face bills.
Nothing is free in this world, why do you think they tried to get their system in?
Nothing is free? So water is………………………
Brian,
if Loc8 became a National system then Loc8 would not be making decisions as to who paid for it. It is a matter of public record that Loc8 was offered to the State for FREE but this was never explored.
Capita now propose to charge for Eircodes and what’s more members of the Cpaita consortium, including Bearing Point and Autoaddress, are already selling their own servives (seperate to Eircode) to help companies get ready for Eircodes. Just to be clear, they are filling their own balance sheet by revenue from insider knowledge…!
I don’t really think anyone has any concerns about Loc8 – it has been in use FREE of charge since 2010 – tried, tested and proven!
Loc8 was offered to the state for free. But government instead got John Tierney to recommend an antiquated code and then got a British PLC capita to delivery postcodes at a cost of €27,000,000.
Do you think Loc8, already part owned by Enterprise Ireland would have charged €27,000,000?
The government don’t even own the trademark for EIRCODE it is British owned.
Totally agree, this Eircode will never work and just like Irish Water will see thousands of euros go down the drain and who will end up paying. They will add another Tax – Eircode Tax!!!
This scheme needs to be scrapped now and give it to the Company with the Proven Track Record….
And in spite of all of the money already spent, An Post have confirmed that using postcodes will be voluntary – they will continue to deliver all mail with, or without, postcodes as per usual.
So in summary, here comes another Government misadventure worthy of a boycott!
If you’re not required you’ll boycott but you ARE required you’ll co-operate? Ooh, what a bad-ass
No.
What I meant that there is no stick and no carrot here – the carrot would have been having your mail delivered and the stick would have been the postcode. But since it will all be delivered regardless of whether you use postcodes or not, a passive boycott of the system will be easy to implement and over time the general public will just learn not to bother with something that companies / emergency services can if they wish. No “active” boycott will be necessary and the whole expensive and pointless system can be largely ignored by the general public.
winding_down, they are seeking voluntary compliance and I imagine that over a long period of time this will change. An Post have systems that allow for the automatic sorting of mail with non-unique address but this is nearly impossible with unique address of which Ireland has the largest by far in the EU making accurate delivery of postal services to the door quite difficult. They are also liaising with all public bodies that use large scale mail-outs to get them to use the code (e.g. Revenue, Social Protection, Agriculture etc). Hence, if you receive mail from any of these bodies it should contain your unique postal code. If you dial the emergency services your unique postal code should allow a speedier and more accurate despatch of services to your door. Why would you want to boycott this service if it is voluntary and, presumably, not boycott it if it is obligatory? This seems silly. Have we reached a point that no matter what Government do people will boycott it just because they can?
Finally the cost of the service is largely the once off set up. After that it is maintenance i.e. adding new addresses so the costs will be far far less.
I don’t think you understand the carrot & stick metaphor. Getting your post delivered is the carrot. The post code is the means by which the carrot gets to your mouth. There is no stick.
The carrot is that in theory your post will be less likely to get lost if you use the postcode. The stick is that if you don’t use the postcode your post is more likely to get lost.
It’s common sense that they’re not just going to tip the no doubt at the start huge amount of uncoded letters into the bin. It’ll just become more standard practice as time goes on. The main push will, in fact, probably come from private companies, who probably WILL start requiring you to provide postcodes for your bills to be sent to, or deliveries made to.
Mr. Rice,
1. Tell us what GPS manufacturers have stated they will support for EIRCODE
2. Tell us how the 2GB EIRCODE database will fit on a 2GB satnave and still have room for maps
3. Tell us how useful EIRCODE will be to the emergency services for “non-dwelling”accidents like RTAs
4. Tell us what safeguards are in place to stop the database being hacked or reverse engineered
5. Tell us what testing EIRCODES have gone through with emergency services, logistics industry, tourism bodies and general public?
EIRCODE is not tested, not proven and NOT fit for purpose.
John R – you speak of the idea of a postcode. But we are not not at the stage of justifying a postcode – that passed in 2006.
We now need to justify Eircode specifically as the chosen Irish postcode.
Can you justify Eircode above other proposals/specifications?
Thanks for that clear concise synopsis given. All makes sense now. Glad to hear GPS co-ordinates involved. I just hope an Post can inform us of that info. We don’t want another huge misunderstanding. ??
I’m completely lost.
If you use Eircode’s “look-up tool” it keeps showing Enda Kenny!
There will be no post codes I mean soon ISIS will start protesting again and beheading all around Dublin ,villagers raped and pillaged and then sher the yanks will have to invade and sher wouldn’t you know after the Insurgents Are gone back comes Troika with a new bailout programme and new fresh air metres shed the whole country’s ruined
“Crapita ” have become a bye word in the UK for enormous IT projects, mainly for the Government, which suck up huge amounts of money and which are failures requiring expensive remediation.
We don’t need post codes. Being doing perfectly fine without them.
Why not, most modern countries have them, and they work perfectly well, so why not us?
Ever try to buy anything online ?
No we haven’t “being” doing perfectly fine without them – http://www.thejournal.ie/ambulance-cot-death-961306-Jun2013/
An Post said we don’t need them. But what would they know? After all, they’re just the people who manage to visit every house in the country five times a weeks for sixty-odd cents.
This is about conforming with the rest of Europe and not feeling left out / inadequate / backward rather than an actual practical need for postcodes
An Post don’t need them, because the postman knows where everyone lives. He knows that the Doyles live in the white house, the O’Connors live in the cottage, and which Murphys live where. For couriers, utility workers, takeaway delivery drivers, taxis and the emergency services, a way of differentiating one house from another is invaluable.
Don’t need one of those new car thingies, sure my horse will do me grand.
Spot on Derek, and for people trying to serve Court warrants as well!!
@Derek, what if you are knocked down far from a house or dwelling? Or were injured hiking on a mountain or forest. How many road traffic accidents do you know of that occured to dwellings?
Get Lost, if im up a mountain how do I get a loc8 code?
Depends on the mountain :)
If you have mobile coverage you use the Point8 app on your Android or iPhone smartphone to generate a precise Loc8 code using your onboard GPS. The current Point8 apps submit their GPS location to a server and the server returns a Loc8 code.
This is done via a simple computer algorithm and in future the obvious possibility exists to write apps that allow on device generation of Loc8 codes without the need for a live internet connection. So right now your mountain needs data coverage but in the future this will not be required.
http://www.myloc8ion.com/products/point8
Garmin GPS on the other hand can currently do on device Loc8 code mapping, no internet connection is required. Simply enter a Loc8 and a Garmin will plot it and allow you to navigate to the precise location.
John i must ask are you genuinely interested in Loc8 because you seem to have difficulty understanding simple Loc8 concepts on previous threads and articles.
You are not by any chance trying to muddy the waters and look for inadequacies are you?
What have you to fear from a low cost, modern navigation code?
Get Lost, I wonder at any product that feels the need to scaremonger to try and get people interested in it.
You have claimed Eircode is a Tax…
You have claimed Eircode will cost lives…
As for muddying the water, as a possible client of Loc8 I am fully entitled to look for inadequacies, and the fact that some people have issues with that seems to lead me to be suspicious of Loc8.
Oh and by the way, you stated earlier there was no tender for Eircode, where as Loc8s director Gary Delany stated there was “Loc8 was unable to tender because a minimum turnover of €40 million was set “
Can you please point out what product you know of that feels the need to scaremonger to get people interested in it. Point to official sites of the product in question and where they scaremonger. We’re waiting..
EIRCODE costs 6 times more for a lookup than an equivalent lookup in the UK. Any device, GPS or phone app will require database access to be used. There is a cost for access to this database and their is a cost to update and maintain this database and users will pay that costs. We’ll call it a postcode tax, you call it what you want.
The Irish Fire and Emergency Services Association have claimed it will cost lives. And already today i have hi lighted 3 reasons it will cost lives. But please carry on as before and ignore any answers that don’t suit you.
Why don’t you contact Loc8 directly, their owner Gary Delaney contributes here, call him, email him point out what you perceive to be inadequacies. In fact point them out here so we can debate them. But you have to listen to answers and you have to admit you have been told something and stop asking the same stupid questions.
I STATED THERE WAS NO TENDER FOR THE DESIGN OF THE CODE. THERE WAS NO TENDER FOR THE DESIGN OF OF THE CODE. IF YOU THINK THERE WAS A TENDER FOR THE DESIGN OF THE CODE PLEASE SHOW ME THE TENDER. That’s why we are in the mess we are in and why Liam “ask me one on sport” Duggan is playing scrabble in Capita’s offfices. Design had nothing to do with the tender so nobody had a chance to show off their technology.
Do you understand John, this is an answer OVER.
Who do you mean by ‘we’? An Post says it doesn’t need them because it uses a proprietary system and being a former state monopoly has a vested interest in shutting out competitors. Using Optical Character Recognition (OCR) technology, which reads whole addresses rather than just postcodes, may be user-friendly for An Post customers, but by not making the details of its system public disadvantages new competitors. A closed shop.
New Zealand Post also argued that OCR made postcodes unnecessary, despite having had a postcode system for presorting mail in bulk since 1977, but introduced a postcode system for all mail in 2006, which has been mandatory since 2008. Only DX Mail addresses don’t require them, but that’s because DX Mail has its own receiver boxes, and aren’t sorted by New Zealand Post at all. http://www.justice.govt.nz/contact-us/sending-mail-to-our-dx-address-is-easy
That said, having unique addresses and postcodes is not a panacea, and nor is competition, as even Royal Mail staff send correctly addressed items to the wrong address, while TNT in the UK, owned by the privatised Dutch postal service, has distinguished itself in London by dumping letters in bushes.
UVF, UFF, LVF, DUP, UUP are also all offensive. Then what about USA, GBR, NIR, ETA, JEW and the most offensive of all could be LAB.
SEX, COK, DIK, PUS, TIT, SLT, GEE, BUM, NOB, CUM, SUK, SPA, SAP, HIV.
What if you had an ex girlfriend you now hated called AMY for example, could you request a diff code.
Back to the IRA is IRB and ICA also offensive?
Even switch to sport like to a Man Utd fan having a postcode with LFC could make them move house.
Actually to save all that what about a US style zip code. Dublin 50001, Cork 22222 etc would save on this system
What about YR MA??
Yes Joe but it would not be a system that was geo-tagged to your actual property it would just link to a large clump of properties. This system is the equivalent of a GPS coordinate for your home. The system in use in the USA and the UK are not. Of course they introduced their codes decades ago. There are some benefits to being late adopters!
Sorry it is NOT the equivalent of a GPS cordinate for your home.
Loc8, Open Postcode and GoCode would be the equivalent of a GPS co-ordinate for your home.
EIRCODE is a reference for a database, a big expensive database that looks up your GPS co-ordinate. So you either need the database at €5,000 per seat or €0.10c per lookup over 3G / 4G which is 6 time s more expensive that the UK postcode database. And if you have no 3G or 4G you have no lookup.
We will NOT see ANY benefit for business, the general public or tourists as LATE adopters.
EIRCODE IS A TAX
I presume this is another new scam then? What was wrong with the old system?
Ask anyone who has ever tried to get the emergency services in rural Ireland.
Hmmm, valid point. I was listening (really listening, not joan burton listening) to the CEO of Eircode the other day and he was saying that An Post have the GPS locations of every house in Ireland. Surely it’d be easier for An Post and the ambulance service to share this information rather than change the national postal address system?
What about private deliveries?
This will only help for emergencies in dwellings but only for dwellings for which you know the EIRCODE as they will be secret. Imagine a tourist driving in a rural area, they spot a fire at an isolated house, they WILL NOT know the EIRCODE to call this fire into the emergency services.
Also codes Like A65-ABCD and A65-ABCC may be 100km apart and will cause confusion especially for non english speakers.
For rural road traffic accidents EIRCODES will again be NO use as they are for dwellings only. Also no use for farming accidents, forestry accidents, hillwalking and mountaineering accidents, cliff accidents, aircraft crashes etc etc.
Eircodes are not tested, not proven and are waste of money and will be so expensive to implement in GPS devices they will end up as a postcode tax.
EIRCOES WILL COST LIVES
I stand by my original statement so ….another new scam, it’s par for the course at this stage.
Get Lost, How will Eircode Cost lives?
Ah I see so what your saying is LOC8 will save the day. Hope they are paying you well. Why not just use GPS… no confusion there
Not being paid a red cent nor do I want to be just want the best postcode for Ireland. Apologies for wanting the best from our public services.
No confusion using GPS ???? REALLY
Original or ITM Irish Grid
What length or accuracy
or perhaps you mean Lat/Long in that case
Degrees, minutes and seconds?
or degrees and decimal minutes?
or decimal degrees ?
Will we use north and south and east or west
or will we use positive or negative degrees
If using decimal degrees what level of accuracy how many numbers after the decimal point?
You just didn’t’ put any thought into your post did you?
Loc8 is a solution to confusion
Yes it will, can you not see that John?
I don’t think it is. The system is as flawed as the one it pretends to be better than. Its as secretive, as you claim. Its limited to one sat nav system which is hardly fair to anyone who does not own a Garmin. And you still haven’t told me how on a mountain I get a loc8 code.
I have told you but you appear incapable of understanding simple instructions. It appears a common trait with you.
You ask questions already answered, see problems where there are none.
Hi John
Get lost is correct regarding the GPS co-ordinate systems, problem is that there are several different systems and they are confusing….
Loc8 system is excellent, its free, and we use it commercially for deliveries and we also use it when we respond to missing persons reports when we initiate a search. It gets our search teams to the correct locations every time and also if an item or person is found the team leader can immediately relay the exact location using the point8 app on android, hopefully this answers your last question as to how one gets a loc8 code while on a mountain.
You said that the Loc8 system is flawed, I would be interested if you could be more precise and elaborate further.
@ John Rabbett Over 100,000+ people already own a Loc8 capable Garmin in Ireland. But for all the people feeling left out I will tell you for the second or is it third time today that there are apps called Point8 available on the Android and iPhone app stores.
Do you think that is fair, do you understand OVER.
A tourist would never know the post code of any random house no matter what system is used
Incorrect Ian.
Please download the Point8 app for Android or iPhone and you can generate a Loc8 code for anywhere on the island of Ireland.
Currently the apps needs a data signal to translate a GPS position into a Loc8 code but in the future apps could be written that do this on device, Loc8 is after all based on an algorithm not a database.
Download the app and try it.
BTW you will NEVER be able to generate an EIRCODE from a GPS position as they are secret.
SH1 T?
A55
Ar5e
7I7S…… LUB3…. Hope I get a naughty one.
P15S
The codes will help deliver the water charge bills, quicker.
Good, the sooner I don’t pay it the better.
EIRCODE will be good for Property Tax, Water Tax and TV Licence if it was meant for anything else it would be useful….
Can you believe it. A company which is earning €27 million from the Irish tax-payer is talking about using scrabble to develop a National Postcode! If you design a code properly you don’t have to play word games Mr Duggan. Are you sure it was the English language version of Scrabble you were using because there is nothing random in that?
Loc8 developed Loc8 Code starting back in 2005/6 and it is tried tested and proven for years since – no scrabble needed, just good design!
….and then Mr Duggan also stating that Eircode is talking to Google! On one hand the Data Commissioner is saying that Eircode may be a breach of privacy and on the other hand the Capita Consortium is talking about giving everyone’s Eircode to Google! Is joined-up-thinking not a useable word in scrabble?
Loc8 has no database to give to Google, Garmin, TomTom or anyone else to breach privacy and cost millions. Just a simple idea suitable to everyone, no ongoing costs and used by Garmin since 2010.
Maybe Mr Duggan should have bought Monopoly instead as the sums of money may have been more suited to Eircode and he might have managed to get passed “Go” !
C’mon Gary the code was recommended by the Postcode Working Group chaired by none other than John Tierney of Irish water….did you expect a success?
“He added that employees who visually went through the combinations that were left found some “unexpected things”, like the fact two ‘V’s’ beside each other look like a ‘W’.”
Really, that was unexpected?
Though I see The Journal “hsa” invented a new word. I wonder will that feature?
“The letter ‘M’ hsa also been removed for “verbal recognition” reasons as it sounds too like ‘N’”
Why was there no tender for a postcode design?
Why is an untested, unproven, antiquated design being foisted upon the Irish people by a British multinational?
As late adopters why couldn’t Ireland have a postcode design that would be useful for road traffic accidents?
Why is EIRCODE so expensive to design, use and maintain? Have the government learnt nothing from the Irish Water debacle?
Did everyone miss the point where he said the online look-up tool could be used FOR FREE up to 15 times a day.. Does that mean we’ll have to pay to use the service outside of those limits? If so how will they start to charge, will you need to log-in just to use the look-up tool?
YES an if you have no broadband or no 3G or 4G coverage you get no lookup. When you do end up paying for it the cost is 6 times that of the UK database so essentially EIRCODE IS A TAX
But then again the database will be hacked in no time an we will probably all be able to download it from some Russian website for free.
Capita Ireland is a wholly owned subsidiary of Capita PLC a British multinational and headed by headed by Liam “Ask me one on sport” Duggan. Crapita specialise in collecting council tax in cities like Birmingham. They are being paid €27,000,000 to play scrabble, sorry to deliver the most modern postcode in the known universe even though they have never delivered one before and know nothing about it but it is only for thick paddies after all.
It is the most modern postcode in the known universe even though the Freight Transport Association of Ireland say is its not fit for purpose and wont use it and the IFESA (Fireman’s Union) say it will cost lives. But these are minor issues, who want’s to save lives anyway it is the spending of €27,000,000 that is important.
It is very much is needed for collection of Property tax, Water tax and TV licence so you are right, hunting people down for money and making it easy for Crapita to be come the “collection agent” for Irish Water. We won’t privatise Irish water we’ll just privatise water charges collection for Irish water.
EIRCODE will be a great success, no body will use it , people will die unnecessarily because of it but it will be a success because it is the most modern postcode in the known universe
EIRCODE SUPPORT EXPECTED TO LEAD TO MAJOR JOB LOSSES AT AN POST
Liam O’Sullivan, mails operations director with An Post, said “the postal service was fully committed” to the new EIRCODE postcode system today at the Committee on Transport and Communications.
In order to fully support EIRCODE An Post will be required to equip every postal delivery worker in the country with a copy of the EIRCODE database via a handheld computer with built in navigation. Each handheld computer will have a database of EIRCODE postcodes and ultimately the exact GPS position GLE of every house & business in the country.
The use of EIRCODE will subsequently deliver significant cost savings for An Post in two main areas….
1. Firstly using EIRCODES the 4 mail sorting centres (Athlone, Cork, Portlaoise and Dublin) will now be able to sort mail right down to local route level with no need for any sorting at the delivery office or walk sorting. This will allow a reduction of staff at local delivery offices and ultimately a reduction in the number of postal staff employed due to increased efficiency.
2. Secondly local knowledge will no longer be required to deliver mail as all a postal delivery worker will have to do in the future is follow the GPS and do what it tells them. This means that staff can be redeployed at short notice with no need to learn the route. It also means in the future that agency or temporary staff can be drafted in at short notice due to staff shortages through illness or at busy times of the year such as Christmas or even in the event of an industrial dispute.
Essentially EIRCODES will facilitate the dumbing down of An Post’s delivery service
Surely using LOC8 would lead to the same job losses
Loc8 is not designed for An Post – they said they did not need a postcode! They sort using post town names and deliver using local knowledge – better than any postcode. But everyone else needs a solution to finding places – that’s what Loc8 does!
An Post won’t really be using EIRCODEs, they stated they will be supporting it FULLY two days ago but the reality is that it is already on-the public record that full adoption will cost an post between 25 and 30 million but now they appear to be able to do it for 1 million.
Rest assured An Post will NOT be using EIRCODE or any other postcode. The DCENR got An Post to pretend that they are going to use EIRCODE as a damage limitation exercise after the FTAI said that EIRCODE is not fit for purpose and this article is part of the PR charm offensive.
Suffice to say an envelope addressed to John Rabbett, A65-1234 will NEVER get to you using An Post.
GetLost, then why have you said “EIRCODE SUPPORT EXPECTED TO LEAD TO MAJOR JOB LOSSES AT AN POST”
Seems that you are trying to scare people away from Eircode for some reason
If An Post were telling the truth on Wednesday an they are going to FULLY support EIRCODES then the will have the capability to sort right down to route level. This will remove the need for further sorting and subsequently remove the need for the people who do the further sorting.
Previously an Post and PA consulting have worked out the cost for An Post to adopt EIRCODES will be between 25–30 million euro.
So if An Post are telling the truth and but are now saying that FULL adoption can now be done for €1 million not €25-30 million then this MUST be the net cost AFTER payroll savings are taken into account. I can think of no other way to reconcile their statement on Wednesday,
Letting go 500 people on €40k pa would save €20,000,000 per year. So you read right if An Post are telling the truth.
I don’t know any postmen getting €40 k per annum,I have heard the post will come pre-sorted,from the start of a duty to the end,so no need for letter sorting,an post will still need staff for packets and parcel sorting,postmen generally do 1-2 sorting in the morning,this time will be used instead for actual delivery of mail,which will mean longer duties and less staff
What does this mean? “Eircode’s website will include a ‘lookup tool that can be used for free about 15 times a day…’
Will we be required to ALSO pay for this??? Public information and a public service yet again handed over to a private company so that they can make a profit on the backs of people!
EXACTLY EIRCODE IS A TAX
Everybody will be notified of their new postcode. But what happens if you want to post a letter to somebody else? do you have to go to the bother of trying to get their postcode first?
Stephen, no you don’t especially if they live in a town or city. An Post can cope.
@Stephen Eircodes will be a secret unless told to you.
@ John R it must be embarrassing having to go online as part of your job and justify a system you don’t fully believe in?
@Get Lost Eircodes.
I didn’t realise Gary was on here I was asking you becuase you seem to support them so much. and I am not supporting Eircode I was asking questions. I am very familiar with Post/Zip codes used in other countries; not so much with Loc8 or Eircode.
I Use a database table of every Street, City, Country, postcode, and GPS Co-Ordinates combination for 40 countries in Europe also The USA, Canada and a few other countries its provided by a well known GPS service provider and is maintained by them. (almost 10 Million Rows in this Table) Total Size is 1.97Gb. (And this table probably needs a lot of cleaning up) Where are you getting 2gb for the Eircode DB? Have you seen it?
How is Eircode Not Routable if you have the GPS co-ordinates? UK PostCodes (BT3 9AE for example). Does not tell you where an address is just that it’s in Belfast somewhere. Typing it into my DB tells me the Address. and The Co-Ordinates. All other postcode Systems are the Same. You can try this in Google Maps.
Your argument over RTA’s is not really accurate either, I drive through plenty of areas where I don’t know the name of the Road, or Area. nevermind the Post Code. How will any postcode sort that?
Gary makes fair points. But I think there are more important questions to be asked by the Communications Commitee than if a Eircode looks like a bold word. This is going to be a major issue for every DBA in the country next year and a giant pain in my ass for the best part of the year. I don’t think enough information is forthcoming from DCENR or Capita.
Plenty of Loc8 fans around the country, over 100,000 codes have been issued and are in daily use. We support it because it is simple yet sophisticated and easy to adopt it truly is a 21st century postcode (navigation) solution that needs no maintenance.
Eircode are saying they will have up to 5 iterations for every address in the country this is why the DB will be unnecessarily large and quarterly updates are required to keep up to date.
I think you should look into Loc8 and see how useful it is. A Loc8 code can be generated for ANY point on the Island of Ireland north or south. This can be done using an iPhone or Android app. Currently the apps (by independent developers) needs to be online but it the whole code generation requires only a short amount of programming code so in the future offline versions of the apps would be simple to create. Even now Garmin GPS suppport Loc8 codes in offline mode so no 3G or 4G connection required and support is free.
Going back to your RTA scenario imagine you are driving somewhere in the back of beyond you have a crash, you need assistance, you have a phone signal, you can use the app to generate a Loc8 code. The emergency answering service for 112/999 already accept Loc8 code, they can guide the emergency services to within 6 metres of your location. Thats how Loc8 will sort that!
Thanks Daniel and Get Lost Eircodes
Just to say that Loc8 was added to An Post Geodirectory in 2011 and is offered and in use with An Post customers. This being the case DCENR has the capability of advising every property owner of their Loc8 Code if they wish right now but they have chosen not to do that because Loc8 was not in a position to offer them €9 million like Capita was!
Loc8 is flexible enough to be used for any location. Yes as a result of an App, but also by reasonable public safety infrastructure such as public signage. The Water Safety agency in Ireland through Local Authorities is already supporting Loc8 Codes on ring buoys along waterways and there is absolutely no reason why the NRA and others could not do the same thing. Poles and bridges already have local authority codes on them which can only be interpreted by the local authroity during working hours. If they were replaced with Loc8 Codes they would satisfy both the Public and the Local Authority needs at the same time.
Unfortunately, Eircode is being introduced in a vacuum without any interest in the wider need or good. No consideration of public use of the codes was underatken and the focus appears to be on property identification rather than finding places. My article here http://www.loc8code.com/news – “Postcodes Wrong Way Turn Back” explains how Eircode will not solve Ireland’s addressing problem or improve public safety but will in fact make it worse. The Irish Fire and Emergency Services Associaton (IFESA) was very quick to recognise this and state that they would not support Eircode. see http://www.ifesa.ie.
Eircode is a landline solution in a mobile age and what’s worse is trying to justify itself by applying blinkers to the horse that has already bolted when Loc8 has long since shown the way!
And what is wrong with landlines? Your office has a landline phone and fax number – a good thing too, as I wouldn’t take it seriously if it didn’t! Surely. Eircodes can be as easily allocated to temporary structures as to permanent ones, just as telephone numbering ranges are allocated to mobile as well as landline services.
I’m wondering, since they’re blocking f3ck on the 4 digit part, who will get the wonderful post code ‘fec k0ff’..it would in theory pass their filters after all.
And a few criminal organisation abbreviations need blocking.. Ranging from nazi Germany, to the terrorist and freedom fighter groups up north, to ISIS, ISIL, and finally FF, FG, Lab……
I’m wondering how Loc8 make their money? Maybe “Get Lost Eircodes” can explain thier business model??
Did they tender for the contract? Why were they turned down? Will they be effected when Garmin pull loc8 in favour of the official code?
An Post Unions (Not An Post) have been resisting Postcodes ever since P&T was split into AnPost and Telecom Eireann in 1986 precisely for the reason that it will make the system more efficient and require less staff to operate.
An Post are not the experts they claim to be, I live in a townland that straddles two villages. I continually get mail that has been returned by one Post Office to the Sorting centre then re-routed through the other office for delivery. I generally get post only on a Monday or a Thursday. and often get mail that is not for me but for my neighbours. It’s a Joke.
And as for not being a benefit to business. as I work in the Logistics and SCM industry I can tell you the amount of failed deliveries and returned shipments that will be eliminated by eircodes will save us a fortune in time, fuel and labour every year. Like every large business we will buy the database from eircode so that we can find addresses, route deliveries and collections and also give clear and accurate pricing.
Daniel,
Loc8 was unable to tender because a minimum turnover of €40 million was set – this was found by an EU investigation to breach EU regulations.
Loc8 has being delivering its service since 2010 and doing fine. The limitations of Eircode will ensure that Loc8 will continue to grow in use.
An Post do not need a postcode for sorting mail – others need an address code for finding places.
UPS/DHL/Fedex/DPD and others as part of FTAI have said they will not use Eircode. They have a need to solve the problems you describe but Eircode is not the solution! Loc8 is already used by many who drive for a living!
@ Daniel why don’t you just ask Loc8, phone number on their website and their inventor is online here too, why ask GetLostEircodes? Loc8 were not allowed to tender due to unfair tender rules that excluded small business. DCENR staff keep trotting out mistruths about the tender process but the European Commission said tender was unfair. Just because Pat Rabbitte lied about it doesn’t make it true.
Garmin will have to be paid to support EIRCODE and the EIRCODE database is so big it won’t fit on most existing GPS devices and the question has to be asked will the Data Protection commissioner allow every satnav in ireland to carry a database of the full country…i doubt it but money talks.
An Post are on the record since 2005 as saying they have no need for postcodes. Simple fact of the matter is they WILL not use it, it will cost them up to €30 million to adopt, it doesn’t make business (or union) sense to them. Suffice to say a latter addressed to Daniel Scott A64-1234 will NEVER delivered to you by An Post.
EIRCODES is not routable so the saving in time fuel and money will not be as good as is possible, why settle for substandard why not insist on the best available. The random nature of the EIRCODEs will mean drivers and sorters wont be able to memorise locations for van loading and this will considerably add to the expense also a single digit error could send a parcel off by up to 100km unless validated. FTAI said they wouldn’t use it even if it was free that says lots. Also how will it help delivering to temporary events, Bloom, Electric Picnic, Ploughing match or even building sites….it wont.
Do you know database access will cost €5,000 per user.
I think the logistic companies won’t use these new codes because they are not sequential and therefore delivery vehicles have no way of plotting delivery runs in an efficient manner. I’m not sure why they can’t use GPS in conjunction but that was their argument anyway.
Because sequential codes affect house prices. By making them random they won’t have an affect on house prices.
You will still have your current adddress on letters and parcels, courier companies can sort on these as they currently do.
Logistics Companies Generally have the GPS/Postcode Database in their system already which they purchase from the data provider (this is how companies like centrica make their money.) Enter the Code… It gives you the GPS co-ordinates,. the same as any post code.
true and in the UK street level postcodes are FREE to use on the web and in SatNavs – Eircode has no street level capability – so no FREE element for Irish users!
Loc8 Code has Area and Locality elements as well as precise destinations
My point is factually correct. Logistic companies have not bought into this system yet as far as I’m aware. UK postcodes go to street and not house level so there is a difference.
There is also a data protection issue with a post code identifying an actual residence.
I bet that they haven’t looked into the Gematria of these codes.
Someone could unknowingly end up with the Devils number.
The most obvious question was not addressed. Will every individual have unique personal number. Post codes and zip codes relating to area work great in other countries.
That’s not the most obvious question and I’m struggling to make sense of it.
Every dwelling and Buisness will have their own.
Every individual person has a PPS number
Kerry, no every address (home or business) will a unique identifier. This will go much further than zip codes in other States as it will be unique to your own dwelling/business and will link to a GPS coordinate in a database which is your precise geographical address.
John_R – your reply is NOT factually true. Businesses in the same building will have the same code. If your business does not have a mailing address (Workshops, Dairy Parlours etc) then it will not have an Eircode. There is no direct link in Eircode to coordinates – you need a database, software and an address interpreter to get coordinates from an Eircode! In other words you will have to mine to extract coordinates from an Eircode – mining is expensive and not everyone is able to do it!
Kerry the following will NOT have an EIRCODE.
Workshops, farm buildings, windmills, piers, jetties, fields, large fixed assets, lay-‐bys, points of interest, lanes, archaeological sites, roads, natural features, intersections, accident black-‐spots, pylons, parks, motorways, junctions, antennae, wells, graveyards, pumping stations, viewing points, manholes/utility access points, car-‐parks, beaches, level‐crossings, transformers, bridges, forests, bogs, lakes, playing pitches, cycle-‐tracks, picnic areas, public toilets, walkways such as the Wild Atlantic Way
P15 51N6 will get your letter delivered to Met Eireann.
The postcodes are another way devised by this government to spy on and control the citizen’s of Ireland. Every house will have a unique indentier – handy for tracking down the property/bondholder tax, the broadcasting/RTE/propaganda tax, the totally discredited water charges and any other taxes dreamed up by them in the future. This is truly 1984 BIG BROTHER stuff. And of course the information on their database will be priceless, so it will be sold on to commercial companies and most definitely stolen. Capita are a British company, so straight away we are handing over this information on Irish citizens to a foreign country and it’s security services. Of course this mad idea is the brainchild of Soviet KGB loving Pat “sure that’s what you do at elections” Rabbitte. Resist and stop this crazy idea now!
Identifier …
They bought online scrabble but that’s FREE. Can’t understand the Scrabble logic. Example given R2GF would not be recognised in scrabble??? A good proof reader would quickly sort the M N issues
With all the new technology for learning out there, why do people here ask the most idiotic questions, propose the most stupid ideas, and make so many inane remarks?
Wouldn’t it be lovely if we all started learning from the internet instead of just trolling.
I don’t understand why we couldn’t have incorporated a similar block postcode system similar to the UK. Simple and effective, why does every property need a unique code. Surely a house number inside a block coded area is sufficient
4 reasons
1. Property tax
2. Water charge
3. TV Licence
4. Big brother database for sale
is capita ireland a private company? if so, how much are they being paid? Also why do we need this? i live in the arse end of nowhere and the postman has no trouble finding me. Could this possibly be for the pupose of hunting people down to take their money to give to the troika? Maybe im just being cynical, forget the health service, roads, education ect the main thing that needs fixing is our terrible postal service that people are always complaining about. Yup. sounds legit.
Why not use a free numbering system as in the US? The ZIP system works fine over the entire country, There is the 5-number ZIP to show the state/city/town and section. ZIP plus four drills down to a specific block within the section, so you have 02138-1568. 021 is Boston and 38 is Cambridge. 1568 is a block. There is an additional set of two numbers used by the postal system to identify a house address. 02138-1568-14 tells the postman exactly what address to deliver,
ZIP is free and has worked well since the early 60s,
And you don’t have pay royalties and check scrabble games.
Because we can have better…something more modern, more accurate and more useful.
DCENR just don’t realise that.
They just go around taking the fun out of everything.
Please, PLEASE, have an email address and not only have a phone number for enquiries. Thank you!
Give each county its unique 2 digit code, divide each county up (by city or towns including surrounding areas) to provide the second 2 digit code. You can add 2 characters for a specific area in a city or town that make up the second 2 digit code. How easy can it be …
Check the Dutch way: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_codes_in_the_Netherlands
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