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UK PUB GIANT JD Wetherspoon’s planned march on Ireland could be stalled after Heineken refused to supply its beers to the company’s latest venue in Dún Laoghaire.
The dispute, which led to Wetherspoon pulling the Dutch brewer’s products from all 926 of its venues, appeared to stem from the pub chain significantly undercutting rivals with cheap pints.
Wetherspoon had been charging €2.95 for pints of Heineken at its first Irish pub, The Three Tun Tavern in Blackrock.
The row leaves Wetherspoon’s without a major brand of Irish stout after losing Heineken brand Murphy’s only 6 days before the scheduled opening of its next venue, The Forty Foot Pub in Dún Laoghaire.
The pub chain has already resigned itself to trading without Diageo-supplied beers after claiming the brewer was charging a premium to supply Guinness in Ireland compared to UK prices.
Goodbody analyst Simon Matthews told TheJournal.ie that Wetherspoon’s dispute with Heineken highlighted the problems the pub company faced in making its strategy work in Ireland.
The would be effectively without an Irish stout, which is likely to be an issue for many Irish drinkers,” he said.
“Losing Heineken’s brands would be quite significant as, along with the eponymous lager, they would also lose Fosters which is their ‘known-value product’ in Blackrock at €2.50 a pint.”
Heineken is the best-selling brand of lager in Ireland.
Price cuts to lure punters
Matthews said Wetherspoon had been charging significantly higher prices per pint when they first opened in Blackrock, but they had been forced to undercut rivals to boost their patronage.
“The reason they’re at €3 a pint is because they weren’t getting the required footfall in that establishment,” he said.
I hope that Heineken UK are able to smooth out this dispute because it is in both parties’ interests – but whether the relationship continues in Ireland remains to be seen.”
Wetherspoon opened the Blackrock outlet under its banner in June and has flagged plans to open 30 pubs in Republic over the next 3 years, although its chairman Tim Martin previously said the company’s decisions would depend on how the first venues performed.
In July he told DailyEdge.ie, TheJournal.ie’s sister site, that prices were too high in Ireland and a lack of competition among suppliers was hurting the business.
Suppliers have got to start doing a lot more, and perhaps having another supplier or two in the market might help … I’m trying to be very diplomatic here,” he said at the time.
The chain’s first pub outside Dublin, the venue once known as the Newport Café in Cork, was also due to open soon, and it has spent about €10 million buying and developing 5 sites. It also recently bought the former Light Nightclub in Blachardstown and it planned to sink €3 million into the venue for the pub conversion.
No guarantees
In a statement yesterday, Martin said Heineken had recently asked for a personal guarantee for the first time in 35 years, despite Wetherspoon making a record profit of about £80 million (€101 million) in 2013.
“The refusal to supply Heineken lager and Murphy’s just before the opening of our new pub in Dun Laoghaire, which represents an investment by us of nearly €4 million, is unacceptable and hard to understand,” he said.
Heineken said it was looking for a quick resolution and it was “unfortunate that commercial issues in Ireland” had derailed the companies’ long-standing relationship.
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“Commmercial issues in Ireland” ie cartels and extortionate pricing. Ireland a great little country to do corruption in.
Thats exactly it. I remember being in Estonia a few years back and seeing a packet of 20 cigarettes for somethibg like 2 euro. Even putting the same level of tax and charges on them as we do in Ireland, it still wouldnt come to half of what we pay here. So basically, companies have wholesale different prices depending on how much they think the population of that country are willing/can pay.
So right Jason.
I don’t know if there are many hino drinks in Wetherspoon pubs these days what with all the crafty stuff available
Ok but how much was the person working in the shop getting paid in Estonia? The people employed by the wholesalers? The cost of business in Ireland is much higher, that’s reflected in the prices of things.
And our standard of living is far higher too . Mostly anywuys.
I agree Jack. But thats on the customer facing cost of things. Put another way, shops in Estonia couldnt afford even half the price that shops here pay, so the manufacturers must be selling to shops/wholesalers for far less than they are selling to us. And they obviously as still making a profit in countries such as the above or else they wouldnt go to the hassel of supplying to them.
€7.13 of the price of 20 is tax so no, that isn’t actually possible.
So who do you blame Justin. The company or the customer? Seems obvious to me the customer
yep protecting the cartels
I for one support Wetherspoons – tired of being fleeced by Irish pubs
Irish pubs along with Diageo, Heineken and the likes.
More power to Wetherspoons.
Paul Connolly everyone another person who thinks pubs produce the products they sell for free… and then magically dispense their product without paying costs… all in an effort to not survive but fleece him.
Lord Edward pint of Guinness less than 4 euro, The Castle across the road from it, 5.50 euro. And don’t get me started on The Temple Bar. So yeah, more power to JDs.
Samdither
Another example McTurkals Townsend st Erdinger alcohol free €5.70 bottle new pub around corner on the quays used to be Kennedys € 5.00 huge difference.
Fair play to Wetherspoons. Nice to see someone standing up for the Irish consumer.
They’re not standing up for the consumer. They’re standing up for Weatherspoons profits.
In this case, Daisy – its the same thing.
Wetherspoons, in embarking on their large investment into Ireland, were expecting a rough ride from the Irish pub trade.
They got it in the UK – where their planning applications were opposed all over the place – largely by local publicans who were fearful of the competition.
And rightly so. There’ll be a lot more rows – before Wetherspoons complete their Irish pub chain…
Nooooo Daisy – todays narrative is weatherspoons is good – even though they’re ‘elites’ and a ‘multinational’ it fits with our interests because it effects us directly… forget that they create monopolies like they do in England (all pubs the same, serve the same c**p).. and destroy independent business… noooo Daisy.. you see here on the journal comment pages monopolies are bad unless of course when it comes to us wanting to pay only €3 for a pint (and at the same time pay staff etc etc)… irony is for iron mongers.
“Standing up for the Irish consumer” Christ, I’ve seen a few naive comments in my time, but I think the Journal should actually create a Naive comments of the week purely based on that whopper!!!!
They’ve withdrawn an extremely popular beer from over 900 pubs Daisy. I’m not saying it’s an act of altruism but it certainly sounds like they are taking a risk of impacting profits to deliver the same service to Irish consumers that they would get if they were in the UK
So you think the VFI and Diageo have the consumers interests at heart instead? Wetherspoons want to sell you booze cheaper than those two so tell me what you would call that?
Well done “I love my country”. I’m glad you destroyed my obvious naïvety with a strong counter-argument…oh no wait
Well said, Sergeant Yates. Multinationals are bad (unless it involves cheap booze for the wuurkers).
Wrong Serg – Wetherspoons are certainly not elite (!) and are not a multinational, trading only here in the UK.
As for being a monopoly – they have just over 900 units in the UK, which has about 40,000 pubs. Some monopoly!
@KalELL – do you know what is the average % Gross profit/pint an average family run pub in Ireland make after the supply the “Irish Consumer” who Weatherspoons are so passionately “standing up for”?
Difference is in the UK people go into a pub and say what beers do you have okay I’ll have the one you sell, instead of being brainwashed into every pub sells a handful of products, and we have to have the one we have been conned into paying more for.
English pubs serve different beer depending on the brewery. They do homogenise pubs in their chain but some chains differentiate their pubs depending on location.
I don’t necessarily think the chains are a bad thing as it is unlikely to eliminate traditional irish pubs. I would hate for it it to end up like the UK brewery system
Much more than Wetherspoons are planning to make per pint seems to be the correct answer to your question you misguided patriotic divil you
@ILMC. I’m sure you will tell me (and with many quotation marks)
That’s my point, nobody knows. The average pub will take €1.45/pint before cost of goods sold (staff, standard overheads etc) are deducted into account.
Every single pub is different as it depends on footfall, geographical population, level of competition etc.
you can’t just come in and say a new company such as Weatherspoons is standing up for the Irish consumer when their cost of purchasing is much cheaper due to huge loyalty rebates from brewery’s aswell as pushing their own products which allows them have an advantage by deliberately under cutting a pub 1/2 it’s size. I’m all for competitiveness but only when the playing field is level. The average pub in Ireland in today’s market are making a wage, not much else. In this argument, Dublin needs to be separated from Ireland as they are 2 entirely different markets at present.
ILMC – we live in a free (not always fair) market.
Get used to it.
Most sales based businesses will take advantage of economies of scale. If you are against that concept then you aren’t for competitiveness at all. Presumably you only shop at local grocery stores too and not at Tesco or Lidl ?
I’ve no problem with Weathespoons at all…
I’ve no problem with competitiveness as I mentioned…
I shop in Aldi/Lidl and try support local business where I can but I like others have a budget with which I have to maximise.
My only point here which I haven’t strayed from is that I do have a problem with people saying multinationals such as Weatherspoons are standing up for consumers…. They’ll be making more profits than your average pub by this time next year so while the consumer is a beneficiary of their business model, please don’t fall under the illusion that their business model is created to benefit the consumer. It’s not.
ILMC – nobody is under that illusion.
But its good to see new competition reducing the prices of the Irish publicans’ cartel. Isn’t it?
I’ll rephrase my original statement for you then ILMC. “Fair play to Wetherspoons. Glad to see someone with a business model that aligns with the needs of some consumers who value low price products rather than a business model that conforms to supplier demands for higher prices in Ireland versus other markets they operate in”
You know making profit is what Companies are set up to do unless they are Charities, then they are set up just for the CEO to make money
What tosh, Sergeant Yates. “All (Weatherspoons) pubs the same, serve the same c**p”?! Really?
What you’re describing is the vast majority of *Irish* pubs, certainly those outside Dublin, Cork and Galway city centres. Most Irish pubs – A Diageo PLC stout, a Diageo PLC red ale, maybe if you’re lucky a Diageo PLC “pale ale” that’s missing any real hop taste, and four or more brands of foreign lager.
Weatherspoons? Most of the same brands, except cheaper, and a range of local and foreign craft beers.
@KalELL – I can live with….
@Bill Rooney… What’s the cartel fascination about? Are you telling me all pubs in Ireland are part of a cartel now?
A minor hiccup – which won’t stop Wetherspoons’ rapid expansion here. Their turnover is now approaching £1.5 billion – and they frequently have disputes with suppliers in their efforts to get the best deal.
Hopefully we will see the back of witherspoons after this.
Why?
Yeah damn those English publicans coming over here, forcing down prices, bringing their fancy competitive pricing. I think the days of the stupidity of supporting local guys who charge you more for the same product are long gone, bring on more competition for this mafioso cartel controlling pubs in this country.
In London you can hardly find a pub that isn’t a chain pub any more. They’re horrible, grotty, stinky places with no atmosphere. I understand the argument about competition – but eventually the retail in this country will be a Tesco and a Wetherspoons on every street corner and nothing else.
That’s exactly what they haven’t done in the UK, 1 or 2 pubs per City/ Town depending on demand. At the end of the day the demand will decide it, but it’ s great to have an alternative supply with the muscle to stick one to the Vintners in Ireland
Eh, didn’t you hear? Tesco is dying. Aldi Lidl and Supervalu are cleaning them out.
There are better ways than destroying the independent Irish pub – one of the cornerstones of our culture. Any large city in the UK now is overrun with chain pubs. Most pubs in central London are chain pubs.
And Heineken losing 60mil a year through the UK withdrawal may force them to reconsider.
Exactly Telbar. Ireland is world famous for it’s pub culture. How many Irish themed pubs are around the world? We’ve no need for tatty Wetherspoons or other high street branded pub chain.
The Irish pub has been dying for many years, not because of foreign competitors in the Irish market, but because they are simply not good value for money. If Wetherspoons entry shakes things up a little, then that is to be welcomed.
Are you willing to risk the market becoming like that in the UK? Pubs down the country might be dying, but pubs in the capital are hopping. Dublin is a great place for going out, loads of people in pubs. Chain pubs would destroy the atmosphere. Essentially some type of government aided resurgence of country pubs is whats needed. The capital is just fine, if you want cheap booze head to Dicey’s on a Tuesday. Plenty of bars offering specials.
Tend bar, I have had no problem finding pubs which don’t belong to a chain in Chelsea, Kensington, Victoria, Waterloo, Croydon, Twickenham, Hounslow, Wembley can’t comment on other parts ai haven’t been in them for years but can’t imagine them being different.
But we already have chain pubs! The likes of Charlie Chawke, Louis Fitzgerald etc. peddle some of the gougiest, faux sophisticate pub chains going. If Spoons force some of the larger operators out from their cosy cartel, then it will be great for the Irish consumer, IMO.
Your suggestion re the likes of Dicey’s or Copper’s is not really practical for a lot of people, as we’re not all students who can head off on the rip midweek. Neither does everyone live in Dublin. And as I’ve said, a lot of Irish pubs are pale shadows of what they used to be in any case, with multiple TV screens, an overbearing sound system etc. which make conversation difficult, if not impossible. Spoons will at least offer an alternative in that sense.
“They’re horrible, grotty, stinky places with no atmosphere ” …Telbar , that’s not the pubs , that’s just London.
Plenty of pubs in Dublin offering specials at weekends. Workmans, Globe, Sweeneys etc, all have specials on certain drinks. Many pubs in Ireland are owned by one company, but they retain different names and different decor. There’s many in Cork that could be called part of a chain, such as Sin E or Tom Barrys, but these pubs all have their own distinct character. I used to go to Tom Barrys for the crosswords they photocopied from the Irish Times for customers to do. But this wasn’t part of an initiative across all pubs run by the owners of Tom Barrys, it was unique to that pub. Same goes for Dublin pubs. Tesco is the same everywhere, I wouldn’t want that for pubs. Chains in the UK are soulless places filled with people looking for cheap booze and standarised food. There’s more to a pub than that. So much moaning about Irish pubs here, yet they are considered the best in the world.
I don’t why you keep insisting that all Wetherspoons are identikit: some are dinghy, I grant you, but there are others which are well-kept and attract a different class of customer. It very much depends on the owner from franchise to franchise, and probably the area in which they are located. There’s a lot of variance in the setting as well, for obvious reasons.
As for the Irish pub, yes, it is true that the atmosphere is renowned. My girlfriend is French and often tells me so! But most foreigners’ conceptions of an Irish pub comes from the theme variety abroad, which are often far-removed from those back home. And in any case, the likes old-fashioned pubs such as Taafe’s in Galway are becoming more and more rare, with many having been run out of business by the superpubs.
The best pubs, IMO, are those where the ambiance is natural, and comes from the chat and craic of the customers and staff. In lots of places now, one has compete with the loudspeaker, DJ or Sky Sports latest event, and it’s hardly worth the hassle.
Incorrect – no JDW unit is franchised.
All are owned by the PLC.
Where do you get your info from?
I’ve been to the UK quite a bit, identical pubs, restaurant chains like Frankie and Bennys, chain cinemas, chain shops, chain pawn stores, it’s incredibly depressing. A place is made by it’s individuality, not how many mega companies can squeeze out smaller business to make everywhere look the same. There are so many great pubs in this country, all unique and all individual, even the big ones. I will never frequent a pub that has numerous branches all with the same name.
Unlike the majority of the Worlds population, which is how brands and franchises work, people go somewhere especially tourists because they know the standards, they know whatever their getting, no gamble that the jolly Irish family run bar will be shit, as they guy can’t be bothered that day.
Sorry Bill, I should have said “landlord” instead of owner.
Ok, fair enough, that’s your choice. Other people want different things, and may not see it as you do. Ultimately, the public will decide, as with all pubs/clubs/restaurants.
Darren – they just have Managers.
And pray tell us Nosmo what amazing place you live in??
It’s laughable to think not selling that piss will halt their expansion, given all of the better beers they sell for the same price. Looking forward to a city centre Wetherspoons to shake things up
Thats it. Now if they do a deal with a few craft breweries I’ll be delighted
Not selling ‘Ken’ in South Dublin….. Damn right it will halt expansion
But surely if you want a pint of Ken, there are plenty of other establishments that would cater for your needs? I would have thought people heading to Spoons wouldn’t be too put out by the lack of big name commercial beers.
Would I be wrong in thinking that Wetherspoons have cut Heineken off from their UK outlets too?
They have. Don’t people realise that if wetherspoons succeed where others have failed we will have better competition as others will want the same deal.
That’s my point. People in that area will not go to a pub that is not stocking that product and will head elsewhere. It’s a big blow to the 40ft
I have to bow to your local knowledge there, as I don’t know South Dublin very well. But I would have presumed that an operation like Spoons- which is offering cheap booze and food, craft, cask and foreign beers etc- would attract significant footfall from outside the immediate area? Especially in a market like Ireland’s, which has been dominated by an anti-competitive duopoly for some time now.
They could always serve Dutch Gold instead of Heineken.
The removal of Heineken for wetherspoons means I’ll be likely visiting then more not less, they have far better beers on offer that are far cheaper than that piss that is available in every other cartel pub in the country, also I’ll happily give my money to someone who stands up to challenge the blatant price fixing and gouging of Irish pub goers by the VFI Diageo cartel
Wetherspoon’s don’t do Carlsberg..
I think you will find they do it in the uk . similar pricing issues means they dont have it in ireland
Oh Liam…..
No Irish stout to offer? How about Wetherspoons contact O’Hara’s or St Mels for their beautiful stouts? O’Hara’s is definitely on a par with Guinness. And how about replacing that Heineken piss with some other Irish Lagers? Irish Brewers like Eight Degrees, St Mels, O’Hara’s produce products 10 times nicer than Heineken. And purchasing Irish beer is only good for the Irish economy, Job creation etc..
Seriously who cares if Heineken and Murphys get pulled. Heineken is piss water and Murphys is only ok. Also the JDWheatherspoons house ales are far better and only 2.50 for a pint.
Speak for yourself Evan, a lot of us think ales are the worst tasting beer ever invented, and yes the words “piss water” springs to mind.
William,I’m sorry but you sound like the usual clown who drinks Coors Light or some other watery muck.You don’t have a breeze what your talking about.You’ve probably tasted about 10 different beers in your lifetime so your tastebuds are used to crap.
Coppers makes 15000 a day profiy by ripping off every one who comes through the doors, they could reduce prices and make 7500 a day but they won’t unless competition like this comes in. Just unfortunate it’s an English pub and that an Irish one didn’t do it.
In fairness Coppers is a special case…. Charging to get in helps… and pure volume of customers. It’s up to others to create an alternative.
Wetherspoons vs the VFI .
https://gaiusc.wordpress.com/2009/08/25/news-dublin-pub-breached-cartel-code-on-price-fixing-by-selling-cheaper-drink/
There were a few attempts made to sell cheaper pints down the years but all of them failed for some reason.
Said it before, you pay for what you get.
I don’t want to drink in a Tesco style pub.
Support your small local pub (yeah I do agree lots of rip off pubs, just avoid those, its not rocket science).
Why do you think hundreds of small family run pubs are closing? Was it the huge profits serving a pint at 4 euro?
They were closing long before wetherspoons came in, the public finally found them out, it’s their own fault
Matt – you pay for what you get? OK – but you get a lot more of it at Wetherspoons….
How exactly do you avoid, `rip off pubs`, in Ireland ?
Since they are all rip off pubs, and agree among themselves to keep prices high.
No Murphys?? Only devastated
Heineken is awful no loss
Wetherspoons will move quickly here – with 3 or 4 venues open, or about to open in the Dublin area. And one, so far, in Cork; but, you can be certain that they’re actively seeking sites elsewhere.
First, they will open in the large towns and cities. Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Sligo, Waterford, Wexford, Athlone, Kilkenny etc. The other pubs will be beaten on price – and just like in the UK – many will go out of business.
Objections to their arrival will be made, mostly by rival publicans – but to no avail. Publically, they say – 30 pubs, in 3 years; it will probably be double that.
They have identified a stagnant market here – and are here to take advantage. Good luck to them.
Too right Gravel. Our old fashioned Irish publican won’t know what hit them; they’ve become incapable of change and new ideas.
People, for a while, will moan about the Wetherspoon firm policy on children, the last of music/sport and ‘no sitting at the bar’ – as they did in the UK – but value for money, hygiene and service quality will win out.
And opening at 8am will not be reciprocated by your local pub! With food until 11pm. Many pubs will go out of business, blaming Wetherspoons.
But the fault will be theirs – in not moving to modern times…
Wetherspoons already have 10 or 12 pubs in NI. A further 50 (predicted) down south will change the Irish pub market dramatically.
Just one example – they have niteclub pubs, called Lloyds; these operate as pubs during the week – and become niteclubs at weekends.
Tables and chairs are removed, revealing a dancefloor – and a DJ stand appears. Dancing to 2 am!
As Will says – Irish publicans won’t know what hit them.
There were incidents in the not too distant past when pubs that did not toe the line found themselves short of stock.
Ate in a wetherspoons at Victoria Station in London last week got a full fry up including toast, hash browns and all the usuals a glass of juice and a coffee with free refills for £6:95.. Not having Heiniken won’t stop them from a regular venue in Ireland so much value for money
The Cartel are pushing back,treasure island must be protected at all costs.
I’m all for competition but weatherspoons are souless dumps. It seems like every pub in London is a weatherspoons. Dull, monotonous pubs that I hope won’t spring up across ireland
It’s the customers that give a pub it’s soul. In the olden days the bar in Amiens Street Station came alive for a few hours every Sunday morning as those with a ticket to Howth piled in. Strange that the trains always left empty :-)
Well you’re out of luck Charles because they will.
Couldn’t you make the same argument about a lot of Irish pubs? At least with the lack of sound system/ multiple TVs in Spoons, it may be possible to have a conversation with your friends, rather than having to shout at each other in order to be heard.
Pretty much the Walmart or Ryanair of pubs…
Maybe Drew – but just as successful….
People are overestimating the impact not supplying Heineken will have on JDW.
Heineken afterall does not have a huge profile in the UK and is more dependant on JDW than JDW on Heineken.
Heineken is Britain’s 18th best selling draught beer v No 1 selling beer over here, Heineken are relying on JDW to build their UK profile and gain a foothold.
There is a perception of Heineken in the UK as a weak lager , a hangover ( pardon the pun) from the time it was brewed under licence by Whitbread at 3.6%, Stella was their premium offering in the stable and they’ve since been trying to shake off this perception.
This row represents a major opportunity for a company like Molson Coors which are actively targeting Ireland and have recently bought the Franciscan Well and are committed to building a bewery in Ireland to gain a foothold in Ireland.
Heineken is easily interchangable with Canadian, Foster’s with Carling, Murphy’s with Shandon Stout.
Wetherspoons are here to stay and I’ve a feeling we’ll see both Heineken and Diageo products in their bars in the near future.
A similar row occurrred with Guinness when JDW moved into Northern Ireland and Heineken moved into to fill the void and gain a presence in NI where to up then Heineken was occasionally seen in a few off licences and the market up there was dominated by Guinness and Bass, but as Wetherspoons grew in popularity Guinness soon came running back.
The Irish pub cartel is at last being threatened by a new arrival, this will only benefit the consumer.
Pubs like supermarkets or any product you are selling, if there is no competition the provider will charge whatever he likes, as has been happening for years.
We need a Weatherspoons in Galway.
Glad heineken is gone and is replaces my Creans. Hopefully they get a good stout in, something like oharas, or galway hooker’s stout
Not having Heineken won’t make shit of a difference. Plenty beers that taste better than that corporate chemical muck.
Funny I remember about 10 years ago wetherspoons pulled out of a pub in Dublin for the same reason Guinness wouldn’t supply then then either.
Ed
Are you talking about the planned pub in Capel Street if so it never opened, never had any work done on it as they saw the recession coming and decided the time wasn’t right so pulled out
people harp on about price fixing but the same people have no problem when wages are price fixed. i believe everything should be supply and demand based
Good, overrated chain of pubs!
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