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IRELAND WAS TOLD by the UK Government thirty years ago that using water cannons on rioters in Northern Ireland could be “more lethal than plastic bullets”.
According to a confidential government document released under the 30 Year Rule, the claim was made by the UK’s Secretary of State for Northern Ireland James Prior in a meeting with Irish Foreign Affairs Minister Peter Barry in October 1983.
During the course of the Troubles, 17 people were killed by either rubber or plastic bullets. Eight of these deaths were to children under the age of 18.
These weapons were often described as “non-lethal” by the security forces but the deaths plainly show that this was not the case.
Rubber bullets are often prone to ricocheting and hitting unintended targets, sometimes grievously or fatally. The same is the case for plastic bullets which were introduced later and are lethal at close range.
All but one of the 17 who died from ‘baton rounds’ were from the Catholic community in Northern Ireland.
In the Hillsborough meeting, Minister Berry appeared to be seeking reassurance that alternative crowd control methods were being examined, but Prior defended the use of plastic bullets.
The minutes of the meeting recall the exchange:
Mr. Prior said that only two bullets had been fired in September…He felt that this element of control had an effect. They were not being indiscriminately used as in earlier times. The last death had been in May 1982.
Barry sought information on whether “there was any progress in developing new tactics that would obviate the need for plastic bullets.”
Prior said that ‘tests with water cannon had indicated that their use might be more lethal than plastic bullets”.
Water cannons were eventually introduced in Northern Ireland in 2008.
Maze Prison escape
The two minsters also discussed the IRA’s Maze prison escape which had happened the month previous. The Irish minister expressed concern for the IRA prisoners who were still in prison, saying the Government had received information that they had been ill-treated afterwards.
Thirty-eight IRA members broke out of their H-block cells in was seen at the time as a major coup for the IRA, the British Government faced calls to resign following the escape.
Prior himself acknowledged that the escape had been a “major victory for the IRA”.
Barry said that the Irish Government had received information from a number of sources that prisoners had been ill-treated after the breakout. He added that “there seemed to be a lack of control over the prison officers”.
The NI Secretary responded that, ‘some prisoners had been injured at the time of the escape but that one had to bear in mind that a prison officer had been killed (in the escape) and another seriously wounded.’
He added he was not aware of any other incidents but asked his private secretary confirmed that he was aware of at least one incident where a prisoner had lost his front teeth.
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8 children murdered by the british and all we hear about is how bad the ira were. 17 out of 18 murders were of catholics but of course the british weren’t biased and protected both communities.
The IRA killed more Catholics than anyone else. And accepted British rule at the end.
This article is about the British Army’s disgraceful use of plastic bullets, not the PIRA. But since you raise it, the PIRA certainly killed more children than the British army eg the two young boys in Warrington.
How many children killed by the IRA, a lot more than 8 anyway.
The ira killed children so its ok then that the british state only killed 8. Also they killed 8 with plastic bullets and not in total. Seriously, get some perspective.
No its not ok for anybody to kill children. Get some perspective, I have perspective, the army were being fired on on a daily basis in the early 70′s, at best they were being stoned or spat on, at worst they were being shot or blown up. What was their response to be?
PIRA/SF abuse of children was even more widespread that those killed by bombs: http://www.thejournal.ie/abuse-paramilitary-1772981-Nov2014/
Do ypu have any data to back that assertion or are you just rehashing old lies
Jayo
Lets not make this about what the ira did but i suggest you go check your figures. The ira did not kill more catholics than anybody else.
Ruairi.. You are trying to paint one side better than the other based on the total number of kids each side killed.. Get some perspective and MORALS yourself.
This is a news story about 8 children killed by the British army and then you try to defend them. You’re sick.
@ M Bowe – Check out wesleyjohnston.com – IRA killed more Catholics than anyone else.
Ruari
Check out wesleyjohnston.com
If somebody was firing breeze blocks or petrol bombs at me I’d shoot them with a plastic bullet, wouldn’t need a second invitation.
Journalstasi
The article is about the british state murdering people with plastic bullets. I pointed out some facts. None of my comments defended the ira killing children but you and others are doing a good job of turning this article into being about the ira.
Jayo
I did check it. Add the catholics killed by loyalists and catholics killed by republicans. Loyalists killed more catholics. Fact
If people are highlighting British army killings then it’s obvious that others will highlight the IRA too, especially as republicans only want to focus on the British. We all know who killed the most people, we all know who maimed the most people. Republicans will use any wee thing they can to slate the British army, this article for example, I prefer to look at the conflict as a whole and pass judgement on it as a whole. I know and everybody else knows that every single year of the conflict the IRA murdered more people than the British army. That isn’t even up for debate.
Antrim
Are you trying to say you are impartial? Every one of your comments is slating the ira yet the article is about the british.
Ruairi, you brought the PIRA into this discussion in your first comment..
Difference is that the British security forces were supposed to be protecting people, not going around injuring, maiming, killing and in some cases (MRF/FRU) murdering people with impunity.
Diarmuid
And……….?
Im a bit of a realist ruairi, if somebody is trying to kill a soldier and he fires back at them and kills them then it’s tough luck, that’s the way the world works.
I agree Brian but their position was impossible at times, they were in constant face offs with aspects of the nationalist community who provided a protective blanket for the IRA. It’s surprising that more people wernt killed when you take into consideration the amount of confrontations. You seem to overlook the fact that 600 odd soldiers were murdered too and 6000 wounded.
Antrim
Thats not being a realist. I dont know of any incident during the troubles were children were firing at soldiers. I know of very few incidents were the ira fired at a soldier and the soldier fired back and killed him. It wasnt open warfare. None of those killed on bloody sunday fired at soldiers either.
Children were on the streets when rioting was taking place, efforts should be made to keep children away from that environment, the army couldn’t do much about who was standing in front of them, all the could do was try and hit the right person. You know how a plastic bullet works, it’s designed to ricochet, they bounced them off the ground first and it went into the crowd.
There were many times when the army returned live fire and shot IRA personnel. Look up Kevin McCracken or Joe McManus as examples.
How many breeze blocks do you reckon were fired by these murdered children?
A lot of what you say there is true antrim. However i have no doubt that the british purposely killed civilians. They also had death squads driving around nationalist areas murdering at random.
So it’s just a numbers game then Antrim?
Is that what happened on Bloody Sunday when 13 unarmed civilians were shot down in cold blood while participating in a civil rights march? Is that the way the world works? Maybe that was the way the world worked in nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia!
Antrim , a quick look at the cases where children were hit would show that they were not standing in front of a riot but were in fact no where near one. One girl was hit by a shot fired from a moving Landrover, a boy was standing outside a shop chatting to 2 girls, another boy standing in a playground where there was no rioting, the list goes on.
BTW, they wer supposed to be bounced but in reality the Brits fired them directly at their targets and thereby causing much more severe injuries.
Between 1969/1998 there was 23 under 5 yr old deaths, 24 aged between 6/11 and 210 aged between 12/17( some of whom were combatants aged 16/17).
Republicans are responsible for 90, loyalists 74 and British forces 67. Clearly showing that no one element can attempt to claim a higher moral ground than another. .
As for Catholic deaths loyalist are responsible for 47.6%, Republican 24.7% and British forces 20.5%. 7.2% are unknown. .
Of civilian deaths,Loyalist groups are responsible for 87.2%, British forces 54.4% and. Republicans 35.6% of the total deaths attributed to them..
This is not posted as a point scoring exercise as all deaths and injury was as is regrettable. But more information to debunk the myth of a one sided conflict being continually flogged.
All facts and figures and sources can be verified at thepensivequill.am/2011/11/statistics-of-conflict-and-conflict.
And when you ard a young teenager in derry on bloody sunday watching innocent people being shot by british soldiers does the same criteria apply??
There was no riot going on when my friends sister was hit in the head by a plastic bullet fired by a british soldier from a passing landrover.
Many people died or were injured when there was no riots taking place. The majority of plastic bullets were fired in riot situations though.
Bloody Sunday shouldn’t have happened but again it was a civil rights march that descended into a riot, that doesn’t excuse the actions of the soldiers though, they should have showed greater restraint and their actions that day took them down to the IRA’s level. British military are better than that.
Notice you did not say Irish Catholics-
It was not the IRAs fault that 100s of British soldiers that they executed were Catholic- the Brits did not run around with a big sign on their uniforms- Loyalists accepted the new Article’s 2&3 of the Irish constitution which is wrote in the GFA- maybe you should give it a read some day kid-
I support the GFA myself. It’s not perfect but it’s better than bombs and bullets.
Your comment even in its contradiction proves you haven’t a clue what you are talking about! Pure waffle! The british army murdered people on Bloody Sunday but it’s not really bad murder! What a plank you are mr. Antrim
maybe go home!!
their tactics were what caused the deaths of innocent children and if these projectiles were designed to bounce and ricochet then they were wrong to use them. It happened a loty. How many innocent men, women and children were injured by these “non-lethal” rubber bullets??
I am home already
How many soldiers and police were hurt by thugs throwing petrol bombs and bricks? How many were shot dead by thugs? How many were blown up by thugs?
The same Britain that now own several water cannons. Clap clap
Yes that’s right, Boris pushed to get one for London after the riots.
Three water cannons were purchased for London after the “riots”.
Looking for movies/tv series/documentaries/books to educate myself on the troubles
Any recommendations?
Check Amazon for books, the choices are almost limitless. YouTube also contains almost every documentary ever aired on the troubles.
Any Tim Pat Coogan books are often a good start – it’s worth getting a book that looks further back than just the Troubles, to get the background,
To all the red thumbs, Unfortunately the education system wasn’t comprehensive enough to fully understand a time period this 20 year old missed.
Here is a good round up to get you started.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/provos/
“A trilogy of Documentary Series on Northern Ireland Conflict – Provos, Loyalists and Brits. BBC documentary series looking at the history of the IRA and Sinn Fein over the past 30 years, an intimate account of the lives of loyalist paramilitaries and the role of the British armed forces in Northern Ireland, made by journalist Peter Taylor.”
I was looking for something a little more impartial than the BBC.
Or more partial to your own preconceptions?
No, I don’t find BBC impartial from watching their coverage of the bank bailout, Scottish referendum and UKIP.
Never watched their coverage of the troubles but if how they cover Scotland is anything to go by ill pass.
Hevin
The bbc did some good impartial programmes on the troubles. Better than rte or itv anyway.
Every documentary, book and bit of research on Irish history is going to have some sort of angle to it so you will have to read and watch as much as you can and then make up your own mind.
Peter Taylors stuff is fairly balanced in my opinion, it’s simply a historical archive rather than something that was made up by himself, the main people in his documentaries tend to be those he interviews, they make the documentary what it is.
You could try voices from the grave, book and documentary. Endgame in Ireland is a good documentary series too and it’s on YouTube.
Luckily I don’t watch rte or tv3.
Thanks for recommendations people!
Check put that pensivequill.am.it list all the resource material used in its post.
@ Hevin Northern Ireland; An orange State by Michael Farrell starts in 1922-8 to give you background then covers some of the early years of the conflict. It is invaluable in the detail as to how & who it erupted so suddenly to the eyes of the outside world. Lethal Allies by Ann Cadwallader is a good insight into Loyalist/security force collaboration.
They never used water cannons or plastic bullets during the London riots.
The motivation behind the London riots was vandalism and theft that only happen for a short period of time . Riots in Ireland was a fact of life that happen daily with the intentions of causing physical harm .
Maybe you should read up on the London riots to see how much physical harm was done.
I never said no harm was done I said the motivation was vandalism and theft unlike in N.I where the use of petrol bombs and anything else that could be pick up and use to cause physical harm . What’s your answer to the Batton gun . I don’t think walking up to rioters and saying can you move on please will achieve anything .
Tommy, you always condemn the actions of the IRA but I’ve never once seen you condemn the actions of the British army in Ireland. The fact that you were a member of this foreign army is most likely the reason for your rose tinted comments. I wonder if you’d been born in the Ardoyne or the Bogside would you have joined the IRA? You probably wouldn’t have had the balls to.
TR less the one percent of the population of NI took up arms that means 99 percent didn’t . 99 percent of the population that simply wanted to getting on with lives .
Life’s
The nature of guerrilla warfare is that a small difficult to detect group prosecutes a war against the larger enemy but that does not imply that the rest of the population don’t support the broad aims of the 1%. The number of people who joined the IRA was well in excess of 10,000 so even you 1% is highly questionable. Look at the turnout for Bobby Sands Funeral from a Catholic population estimated at the time to be 38% of 1.5million, that is 570,000.
People did simply want to get on with their lives but endemic state fostered discrimination prevented them hence the Civil Rights campaign. They were batoned of the streets too so when peaceful means were exhausted the riots began. they in turn were batoned off the street, so guess what happened next?
So why did it continue for 30 years then even after the Stormont govt was abolished and direct rule from London was introduced in 72? Republicans wanted a United Ireland, not civil rights.
Timmy, if you removed Military organisations such as BA & UDR & RUC they would have never took up arms and carry out an act of murder. The IRA came from their own community & felt they were protecting that same community. The British Army were and were seen as a foreign army.They saw themselves as no different to the French Maquis resistance against the Germans. There is a difference between wishing death on your fellow country men and actually carry out an act, that is why the British paid mercenaries to do their dirty work, the Nationalist community had to do it themselves. Also the pseudo gangs (UFF,UVF,RHC) run by the British committed their more outrageous acts. That way they could look down their noses & condemn ‘terrorism’ from ALL sides. The sheer hypocrisy is breathtaking.
People became politicised & realised that the best way of guaranteeing these rights in perpetuity was to strive of a united Ireland.I doubt many started out with a UI in mind but kick a dog often enough & it will eventually bite.
Ted there is a difference between wishing death on your fellow country men and actually carry out an act . People may have supported paramilitary organisation but they would have never took up arms and carry out an act of murder . You remove the paramilitary organisations on both sides and the remaining 99 percent of the population will find other ways of settling there differences .
The IRA never ill treated any prisoners. The IRA never used live ammunition or plastic bullets; they used water pistols.
This article is about british soldiers! Any comments about the actual piece?
The Sutton Cain Index has some stark figures on organisations responsible for deaths during the troubles. It attributes 1707 deaths to the IRA and 297 to the British army:
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/tables/Organisation_Responsible.html
Not a single murder in that period was justified and from the republican viewpoint the whole thing was counter-productive as support in the north for a UI remains woefully low.
The number of people kill by PIRA is pointless . It doesn’t take into consideration the attempted murder of thousands more that where injure who s life’s where save by the emergency services . It also doesn’t take into consideration that 70 percent of PIRA activity was compromise and prevented by the security forces . 49000 where injure during the troubles.
The army did a fantastic job curtailing and eventually defeating the IRA cold-blooded murderers.
It’s “water cannon”.
have your say