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Updated 5.40pm
ENDA KENNY has said that Leo Varadkar “spoke as Minister for Health and he spoke in a personal capacity” in a speech that has reignited the debate on abortion.
The Taoiseach was responding to Varadkar’s comments last night during a motion by ULA TD Clare Daly to repeal the 8th Amendment. The Minister described the current laws as too restrictive.
“While it protects the right to life of the mother, it has no regard for her long-term health. If a stroke, heart attack, epileptic seizure happens, perhaps resulting in permanent disability as a result, then that is acceptable under our laws. I don’t think that’s right,” he told the Dáil.
Similarly, it forces couples to bring to term a child that has no chance of survival for long outside the womb if at all. Forcing them, against their own judgement, to explain for weeks and months to all enquirers that their baby is dead.
He also called for more balance in the abortion debate, and said: ”We need to approach this issue with compassion rather than with cold certainty.”
Speaking at Government Buildings this evening, the Taoiseach said that abortion was “a very socially divisive and complex issue”.
He said the government had brought in legislation last year on abortion that needed to be “monitored very carefully” while adding that he understood there are individual circumstances that fall “outside the legislation”.
Kenny was asked whether Varadkar had cleared his comments with him beforehand:
Video: Nicky Ryan/TheJournal.ie
Kenny added that he would not give any commitment to holding a referendum to repeal the 8th Amendment after the next election.
He said he would not get involved in “any knee-jerk reaction or immediate reaction to situations that involve human life”.
In other reaction to Varadkar’s comments, the Action for Choice group called for the Minister to take action to “eliminate the danger” that Varadkar said women are placed in by non-conservative abortion laws.
“Stop talking and take action,” one Facebook post read.
The Pro Life Campaign, however, was extremely critical of the Minister’s speech.
“There is nothing in the new legislation to prevent two psychiatrists who view abortion as harmless from signing off on abortions, secure in the knowledge that they don’t have to meet any evidence-based test,” Dr Ruth Cullen said.
Paul71 / TwitterWhat's Leo Varadkar talking about? The #abortion law in Ireland is far from restrictive. In fact, it's very liberal. #rte @rtenews
— Paul71 (@Paul71) December 16, 2014
“Contrary to what Minister Varadkar now claims, there is absolutely nothing restrictive about such a law in practice,” Cullen added.
While Varadkar described the Eight Amendment as having a “chilling” effect on doctors, Cullen said it was ‘chilling the way the unborn child has been totally written out of the discussion’.
Jungle Bells / TwitterFair play to Varadkar for a pretty even-handed speech there but to say we need more debate on abortion is ridiculous. #Repeatthe8th NOW.
— NeverEnding Stóirín. (@EXECUTIVESTEVE) December 16, 2014
Cora Sherlock / TwitterAs a woman with epilepsy, I am deeply offended & shocked by @campaignforleo where he supports abortion on demand @epilepsyireland
— Cora Sherlock (@CoraSherlock) December 16, 2014
- additional reporting from Hugh O’Connell
First published 8.35am
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Remove the Church from medicine and politics.. make rational decisions…….problem solved.
Remove the church from Medicine and half the hospitals would close … Like wise with Education … And don’t tell me the Gov will step in and make up the shortfall … They can’t even find the 2 million for Childline
Same church won’t pay their victims of abuse either. Church and state should be separated that includes schools and hospitals
Childline is of no use anyway. It is merely a gate keeper to keep victims trapped.
Everyone knows this since 1996.
As k the children in corporate care and you will soon learn how it operates.
But we are happy to ignore church teaching on same sex marriage, IVF, pre-marital sex, contraception and everything else. So maybe church teaching isn’t the important factor?
How about you engage in the discussion instead of pretending it’s all the evil influence of the church. I don’t think it’s credible to pretend we ignore the churches teaching on almost everything but follow it slavishly on abortion. Perhaps Irish people are capable of forming their own opinions.
Actually, we are going to ignore the church on this one too. It is our politicians that are still highly under the influence here not just in Ireland but in many other countries too.
The reality is that Irish people are much more in favour of a more liberal abortion legislation than the current one than the church is (which gives a guideline of zero tolerance, but hey).
Look at other countries influence and you will see the extremes that the church supports. Yes, those places aren’t Ireland, they simply are more under the influence than Ireland is.
There is also another influence, votes. Even if not a majority, a big non majority is still very much against abortion in most shapes. No party wants to lose that chunk of the electorate (specially because losing that chunk does not guarantee gaining the rest). The current political divide means nobody wants to risk such loss, so no big party will take on changing abortion legislation any time soon until that big non majority becomes a small minority.
Hence the 20 year time frame. Basically when the old school dies.
And why is it that those 65+ seem to be so much against abortion? Because when they grew up they grew up in an Ireland profoundly controlled by the catholic church. The church in Ireland today doesn’t have the omni-presence it had then. But the older electorate don’t see the world that way.
But the walls of the church are crumbling away. 20 years. Number your days.
And by the way, beware of that ‘we are a catholic country’ thing when saying that a liberalisation in abortion won’t pass. The example of Spain with currently very liberal abortion laws, where the current party in power wanted to implement a new law that would revert back to mid 80s (still way more liberal than the Irish legislation anyway).
Despite Spain being considered a ‘catholic country’, the law never materialised and the minister for justice who was behind the draft had to resign.
So beware this false perception of a country being a catholic country. People and the church leaders don’t share all the same ideas or thoughts.
@Linda what do you mean half the hospitals would close? I wasn’t aware that a significant portion of the 16 billion euro annual health budget came from the church. If you are referring to historical capital ownership by the church, then surely given that it was bought with public monies, then they should be in public ownership. And sure anyway, given that we let the church off hundreds of millions in abuse payouts that they will never make and will be made by Joe Public, I’m sure we could turn a blind eye. Imagine how great it would be to be free. No more farcical situations such as in the last decade when oncology clinical trials could not be performed in the Mater because the requirement for mothers to use contraception to prevent medication side effects in the unborn was not acceptable to the religious patronage. Yes, in the Mater, if you had cancer, it was more important that you did not have impure thoughts rather than a potential new cancer treatment.
Deludional Emilio. Where do you think future pro abortion voters are going to come from? Considering that the very ones who are pro abortion now are the ones aborting and contracepting now I can’t see how that is possible. The “old school” as you like to put it are also the ones with all the children.
You seem to forget that you too will die off. Differnce is you have no one replacing you!
Linda, the state funds public hospitals and pays for their staff.
“Considering that the very ones who are pro abortion now are the ones aborting and contracepting now” The idea that couples who opt to end a pregnancy and couples who have children are mutually exclusive are a myth. Over half of women who have an abortion are mothers, and many others want to wait until they can give a child a better life. Very few of those children (or adults, of course) believe their mothers belong in jail for their decision.
Rare moments of ministerial competence.
Has Leo joined the Labour Party
He’s just reflecting a widespread sentiment in society that cuts across all parties. Pretending that it’s just the Labour Party that is pro-choice is a distraction tactic.
No Linda,
Just the 21st Century.
Think we all know what year it is Sean
written by whom ? be sure it wsnt leo
It sounds like he is letting us know, that was Leo talking for himself,not the rest of us. He cast him adrift.
I think that he reflecting on a future papal visit to further distract voters from this governments cock-up’s in nearly everything they have put their finger on.
Yep, because outlining qualified support for loosening the laws on abortion will make a potential papal visit more likely. Not.
Cora Sherlock, speaking from her default position of “offended and shocked”, tells a blatant lie.
The minister quite clearly said he did not favour legalising abortion on demand.
How will we ever have a civilised debate on this issue with this sort of knee-jerk reaction to the most measured statement ever made by an elected representative on the abortion question?
He said the same about Joan Burton, when she said the water charges would be under 200 euros per household, I see the tyrant FG whip kick in again.
Just legalise it, rather than sweeping it under somebody else’s carpet as we do with emigration.
The God-squad will always say their heavens will fall in and the country will go to hell in a handcart if things are changed (‘Hello divorce, goodbye daddy).
The only thing that would actually change would be the amount to which they could dictate the choices people make in their own lives.
Just legalise abortion move on Ireland.
Just legalise the destruction of the foetus in the Womb and remember you can’t call it a baby because the Journal will delete your comment
Linda people should have a choice like obviously your choice is to protect the foetus life. I would hope most would protect the foetus but I wouldn’t shove my beliefs down people throats let them decide for themselves. Every situation is different and who is for anyone to judge.
Cause it’s really that simple
Linda,
Are you genuinely claiming that simply calling a foetus a baby is enough to have a comment deleted?
Sounds pretty much like rubbish, given that many comments make the same point and go undeleted.
Giving people choice is really that simple. However when a person has a biased agenda it never is simple.
If you don’t agree with abortion, don’t have one.
The vocal minority on social media hardly make intelluctually convincing argument for a silent majority in a Christian Country such as Ireland:
Expressing an opinion is a human right.
Often referred to as the right to free speech.
Selective fanaticism on any subject creates the impediment to logical thought and inability to interpret even the written word unless the words defer and cringe in favour of the fanatic.
Placards proliferate claiming “This is my body and I have the right to control over my body” etc.
The unborn child carries the same placard …”this is my body and I have a right to control of my existence, I want to live”.
Use of the internet as a phone, personalised, one on one is a joke.
The Journal is not a chat room.
Moderators are tolerant on the Journal because their value for advertising depends on views and commenters.Anything goes …
Most commenters might get a room for two or send an email, text or use the bell telephony system.
‘Just dropping into the parish pump from time to time.
My space is elsewhere.
Dandahan4.com
Satire, Script and other stuff.
The vocal minority are Iona, Youth Defence et al. This is not a Christian country, it’s a democratic republic supposedly. Church and State are legally separate, the church still have too much influence on the state but far less so than a few decades ago. I’m afraid you’re deluded if you think the ‘silent majority’ are anti-choice and religious.
This is the kind of quagmire of a mess you get when you let religion ,interfere in politics
You wrongly assume anyone who is pro life is so on religious grounds.
Ah but you see, most are. And the Catholic Church has had a sinister grip on this country for a long time. So your old chestnut is invalid. The church has a lot to do with this issue.
No not everyone but the church interfere too much in the running of this country
“You wrongly assume anyone who is pro life is so on religious grounds.”
Maybe, but a huge chunk of those who are not just pro-foetus but radically so, are religious and have those ideas because of their faith.
You mean when you let God into politics
Are you anti foetus Emilio?
Go away Cian u religious papist nut!
Very good confident speech last night that made sense, and must have not been easy for him knowing the divide on the issue. The issue needs to be addressed. I have confidence he might be the man to do it after that.
so he has a good speech writer and he is a good reader and that gives you confidence …..
he is right but there had been enough debate action needs to be taken now. What the hell has epilepsy got to do with abortion, some of the prolife will use any excuse to push their agenda.
What are you on about
Cora and her “As a woman with epilepsy, I am deeply offended & shocked” As i said what the hell has epilepsy got to do with abortion its not something than can be detected by blood tests or scan while in the womb. Its a non runner and barrel scraping for excuses.
Some medications are incompatible with pregnancy. Should a woman be forced to stop taking the drugs needed to live a normal life once she’s found to be pregnant? It’s just another aspect of choice taken away from the woman. The non-sentient foetus supercedes her in importance and she’s reduced to status of vessel.
As has been said time and time again, the women who are currently of reproductive age have not had a say in this. I’m naturally weary as to why Varadker has chosen to speak out, but I’m glad he did, and what he said was balanced and measured. But its not enough. Let the women whom this legislation affects have their say. #repealthe8th
No Lola it’s called democracy and all you far left people will have to accept the democratic principle of a country
We will, howzat, once we’re given the chance to actually vote on this issue.
Your comment lacks sense. Do you want another try?
Lola just for you it’s not about reproductive women only sorry to burst your bubble
We all have a vote
I know I know I hate that
But hey
That’s what we fought for in 1916 democracy
” the women who are currently of reproductive age have not had a say in this”
I don’t get this line of argument. There are huge parts of constitution that people today have not voted on. We don’t have an inherent right to have a vote on everything we want.
You are twisting my words there mate. You’re making it sound like I only want women to vote. Though their vote is more important, I would never stop a man from having a choice and opinion. And also because I trust most men to be rational when it comes to their mothers, sisters, wives and girlfriends health and bodily autonomy.
David, in this case we are talking about something that affects women of child-bearing age on a constant basis, and that we have no say in. If there is another aspect of the constitution that does the same to another group, then let’s hear it.
Jane
You do not have any right to cherry pick the constitution
Everyone is equal
You need to deal with this regardless of your or mine opinion
Howzat, the constitution is changed every time we have a referendum. Now who’s cherry-picking?
Sorry I don’t follow your argument
One vote one equal vote for every citizen that’s my point
Well, every citizen over 18. Great, we’re all agreed – there should be a referendum on the Eighth Amendment and everyone eligible should vote!
No need for debate. Repeal the 8th!!!! My body- my choice.
Very liberal of you to want to shut debate down
Completely ignoring the fact that someone else’s body is growing inside you of course.
Did y’all hear the “POP”? That was the can of worms being opened again… This is gonna get interesting.
The journal will need to take on extra staff
Leo will now be flavour of the month with the far leftists on here a change from calling him every name under the sun.
Cian what on earth is a far leftist?
Until they remember his 3 euro a week slur.
Ah cian, you getting annoyed because more and more people are moving on and doing what’s best for women?
It’s only a matter of time.
The people pressing the green flag
Cian, I don’t consider myself a far leftist or far rightist but I am pro choice. I people don’t want to have an abortion they don’t gave to have one. It’s a free country…oh wait, it isn’t. Women who can’t afford to travel, even women who are suicidal because of a pregnancy are denied a say in what should happen to their bodies.
This whole abortion debate and debate about same sex marriage simply shows what a deeply flawed document the Irish constitution.
A document which requires a public vote on whether a woman has control over her own reproductive health; or whether a minority group should have equal civil rights is clearly an unsafe document.
Well, we need something incendary to distract the electorate from the Irish Water debacle. Desperate times call for desperate measures and all that. It was either this or another Garth Brooks gig.
So true zozzy
So Clare Daly brought the motion to the floor to distract from Irish water?
Hmmmm
Seriously, David? Clare Daly has been in favour of repealing the 8th since before Irish Water was a twinkle in Enda’s eye.
And Ansbacher and above all else fraud in Bord Gas – people getting their gas turned off and some one making a packet out of the place potentially ….
Is Irish Water not part of Bord gas ?
It’s so confusing it’s a separate utility company but it is part of Bord gas , it won’t be privatised but the commercial wing of Bord Gas was sold without referendum …
I think Enda has promised the big boys something he can’t deliver !
I can’t help but feel like he’s trying to distract from the A&E emergency by engaging so heartily in this emotive topics. It’s a headline grabber unlike “woman waits 72 hours on trolley in Beaumont”
RTE just happened to put the Aras Attracta out the night before the water protest last week …. Even there at it …
Yes it’s all a conspiracy….
Is Clare Daly in on this conspiracy ?
I wish Enda would step aside and let Leo at it. I think he could make a good and able leader and could see myself voting FG if he is at the helm.
I always find quite interesting that a lot of pro-foetus subscribers state that pro-choice legislation is being pushed by the abortion clinics as they are private businesses. As if this was a bad thing on its own.
I wonder if they have stopped and checked on the financial cost of a pregnancy.
Just saying, because the argument can simply be inverted and say that pro-foetus legislation is being lobbied by the maternity hospitals as a means of increasing the number of women that go through their facilities.
I know, sounds like I’ve had too much coffee today.
True, Emilio. Also, if you’re going to bring the argument down to economics, how much money leaves the state every year when women travel for abortion?
Emilio you are hilarious. Calling people pro foetus as though that were a bad thing!
Vad
You have destroyed Beaumont hospital literally
Outside the robots on this app what justifies your existence in this role due to your incompetence
I think you need to consult a dictionary to find out what “literally” means.
Bernie
It’s passed right over your head have a cup of tea
Another swing and a miss there, champ
Literally destroyed woykd imply the hospital has ceased to exist, it does not function in any capacity and cannot ever function again. Your use of the world literally’ is incorrect. That seems to have passef over your head howza
Actually, howzatme, it’s your head that it’s passed over, metaphorically!
To try blame Leo for Beaumont Hospital is just moronic.
Yeah, I mean, sure we’ve had overcrowding issues for years and years but the 5 months Leo has been Minister for Health is definitely what caused it!
Are we sill talking about the church? Thought we had moved on. Embarrassingly almost 25 years since I campaigned with youth for choice in the No Yes Yes referendum. Can we please move on in an orderly fashion.
It would appear the Irish government has taken a page directly from the GOP in American. When facing a large amount of opposition on important matters like war or the economy, through a few wedge issues out there for the public to fight over while ignoring the real problems.
Have an unpopular war? Why not shift the conversation to gay marriage or abortion?
The same works if you have people protesting in the streets over water charges.
Any topic which people feel strongly about that will help change the focus and at the end of the day has no real effect on foreign policy or the economy is a great wedge to use to distract the voters.
I can multi task and be angry/motivated by 2 issues at the one time!
Me too.
That’s good. Because right now auld Leo has not only the water charges going on but also the abuse of the children that happened at the hands of the Irish State and of course the more recent abuses going on in care homes.
…And he is out in the media talking about abortions and gay marriage.
Will Leo ever be pregnant? NO.
Will he ever need a termination? No.
Will he ever know the feeling of either ? No
So what business is it of his.?
We managed just fine before the Romans came to civilise us – I mean to put us back into the dark ages, because we were a threat as an evolved equal society.
Most have forgotten that in those days it was only the business of the wombman. Then She was turned into a vessel for berthing under maritime law and thus began the control and profit from berthing persons/corporations. Most are clueless, sadly.
In fairness to people who’ve forgotten, they weren’t alive at the time.
Romans coming to Ireland, maritime law – you’re gas!
Emmm,
He’s the Minister for Health?
Legislating laws on health kinda makes it his business…
Catherine. I am absolutely no fan of Varadkar but your question ‘So what business is it of his?’
Well he is the Minister for Health isn’t he? Just saying like.
The rest of you comment is……eh…eh….. an interesting perspective….to say the least but ‘most are clueless, sadly’ is about right.
@Catherine Mill, suppose the minister for health was an infertile woman, or a woman who decided not to have children – should she then not be able to have an opinion if she will never be pregnant? This is a societal issue that ALL are completely entitled to have an opinion on.
Again in the role of Devil’s Advocate ,…..
Is abortion a health matter or a criminal matter ? …. as the law currently stands !
Sorry, I must have missed the bit in Agricola’s account of his Prefecture in Britain where he says he invaded Ireland. As far as I know the Romans never invaded Ireland.
It’s a health matter made criminal by misogynist dogma
Stupid, feminist bullshit. Sexist too. Completely ignore the opinion of a father over the life of his child. You also seem to advocate for a world where only those who are directly affected by legislation can have an opinion on it.
Look out Enda .. Leo is behind you..
Pro-life, Pro-Choice or even neutral… we are damn lucky to have the right and ability to have this debate to begin with, free of repercussions!
As for those who get offended by these types of conversations you are entitled to, as am I or anyone else but you cannot use that to limit the speech of someone else.
“I disagree with what you say sir, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” – Thomas Paine
This is a distraction attempt and nothing else.
Playing the Devil’s advocate here ….
“With an abortion clinic in Belfast then isn’t this abortion debate just about not having to pay for abortion as opposed not being allowed to have one , or is this just designed to keep the focus of Irish Water and make it look as if the Government have some purpose rather than falling – same-sex marriage is up again as well I see ..”
If I was a political strategist that’s the way I’d be looking at all this !
correct Dermot. FG do this all the time. They spend a fortune on a PR and ‘communications’ team. Media playing the game as well.
They are taking us all for fools.
No, Dermot, it’s about giving women the choice about their bodies and about them being able to implement that choice HERE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY. Also to remove the obstacles for women who can’t travel out of the jurisdiction for immigration reasons.
Speaking in a personal capacity has become the habit of ministers in this government. I
At least Mr Varadkar’s true colours have been revealed. Thank you, Clare Daly, for helping to flush out the closet abortionists in Fine Gael.
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right.
Oh oh Leo made a boo boo and edna is panicking! Leo you are not allowed to reduce the parties popularity below zero!!
leo the kite flyer
When a member of government especially a minister stands up in the Dail during questions/debates he/she is not speaking in a personal capacity but that of the departments policy so this BS about personal capacity by Enda is total horse manure. The Minister of Health has spoken candidly regarding a very sensitive topic and I have commented on the lines he spoke about last night. Ireland will more than likely never have abortion on demand, the 8th amendment will eventually be removed and our women will not have to travel to the UK due to foetal abnormalities etc
*Test*
*icles*
Art wins the internet today…..
Hats off to you, Art!
Thank you Art :D The reason for that was a lickle bug I was reporting, needed to post a comment for a screen cap :)
Clearly Leo and Fine Gael are pro abortion
We have the most liberal abortion legislation in Europe.
Fine Gael before the last election stated clearly that it was pro-life!
Who changed Fine Gael Policy?
Hrmm…these seem to be the same comments from an article on abortion yesterday.
Anyway, there sure are a lot of elected politicians in office making statements in the Dail which after the fact our government likes to throw out the added caveat of ‘those comments were made in a personal capacity’.
Why are our politicians saying things ‘in a personal capacity’ when they are asked about them in an official capacity, while they are on the clock in the Dail?
have your say