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Updated at 9.13am
A GROUP REPRESENTING some second level students has issued an 11th hour appeal to teachers, as pickets begin at schools around the country.
Members of the ASTI and the TUI are striking today, after the latest round of talks aimed at ended the long-running dispute over Junior Cycle reform collapsed last week.
“I respect the teacher unions and their concerns in relation to the Junior Certificate reforms. However, as a Leaving Certificate student I am only ten days away from sitting my mock exams,” Irish Second-Level Students’ Union Education Officer Joanna Siewierska said in a statement.
This second day of strike action is disrupting mine and my fellow students’ education at a very crucial and important point in time.
“It is adding unnecessary confusion to the JCSA discussion and it is equally unfair to all students in second-level school.
“The closing of secondary schools needs to stop.
Again, we respectfully ask teachers to return to talks with the Minister for Education and Skills.
Teachers
In a joint statement this morning, the ASTI and TUI reiterated that they are willing to engage in talks without preconditions in a bid to resolve the dispute.
Teachers had “no option” but to proceed with today’s action, the statement said.
“We already have an independent, objective, transparent and rigorous State examinations model which maintains public trust, and teachers fully support a move away from an excessive reliance on final written examinations.
“However, we believe that the introduction of school-based assessment for certification poses a serious threat to the credibility of the examination process,” TUI President Gerry Quinn said.
ASTI President Philip Irwin said there were “serious and justified concerns over the capacity and school and system level to deal with the current proposals”.
Union bosses will meet in the coming weeks to consider further industrial action.
The changes
Under the new proposals, teachers would be required to grade 40 per cent of their students’ work internally. It had initially been proposed that teachers mark 100 per cent of their students’ exam work.
The changes have been defended by the Department of Education as giving pupils a more balanced educational experience that places less emphasis on an end of course examination.
Some 27,000 teachers also went on strike last month over the issue — resulting in a day off school for around 330,000 students.
Speaking to RTÉ News yesterday, Education Minister Jan O’Sullivan said teachers assessing their students at exam-level was “practised widely” abroad.
The [union] leadership needs to go back and look at why they are so entrenched in their view and cannot move at all.
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My daughter is doing her LC this year. She arrived home from school yesterday with the books she needs to do plenty of study. She is not viewing today as a day off, she is using it to focus on her more troublesome subjects. A random strike is not going to determine whether a child performs well in an exam. They have to put the work in themselves.
You may be right, Andrea, but not every child has that support or initiative. In some ways, studying at home can be more productive (no moving between classes, distractions), so why not give kids in leaving very year 2 or 3 days off a week? I know you are trying to say “it’s not that big a deal”, but for some, it is – and it just distracts from the fact that no current student is going to be affected by these proposed changes, yet they are the #only# ones that have to deal with it.
For most students one day won’t make a difference but there are some for whom the uncertainty that they feel the build up to these strike days brings proves a huge distraction.
If they were given 2 days off regularly, they wouldn’t get through the curriculum.
As stated below, some of my daughters classes still haven’t got through the curriculum in English and biology. This is the second day off (on top of planned days off, in service days etc..). The attitude is if you want to get through the curriculum, then you have to do it yourself, or grinds. Maybe more ‘home days” are required for leaving certificate cycles, with reduced numbers of days with specialised tutors.
A teacher asks her class in the Mock, “If there are 5 birds sitting on a fence and you shoot one of them, how many will be left?” She calls on little Ralphy.
He replies, “None, they will all fly away with the first gunshot.”
The teacher replies, “The correct answer is 4, but I like your thinking.”
Then little RALPHY says, “I have a question for YOU.
There are 3 women sitting on a bench having ice cream:
One is delicately licking the sides of the triple scoop of ice cream.
The second is gobbling down the top and sucking the cone.
The third is biting off the top of the ice cream.
Which one is married?”
The teacher, blushing a great deal, replied, “Well, I suppose the one that’s gobbled down the top and sucked the cone.”
To which Little RALPHY replied, “The correct answer is ‘the one with the wedding ring on,” but I like your thinking.”
Alien, it’s only January! I wouldn’t worry too much if there are still parts of the curriculum to complete, there are still 4 and a half months left in school. Maybe teachers would get through the curriculum faster if class sizes weren’t increasing and resources decreasing.
Andrea, they are doing their mocks in less than 2 weeks – they should have at least covered the curriculum by then, and revise gaps for the remainder of the year. Now they are completing an exam without the material required to answer every question.
I know that there is a lot of moaning about resources or grants being cut, but the number of students (720) is the exactly the same as when they started, the school employs exactly the same number of teachers. You don’t think the reduction in the number of cleaners makes that much difference?
Cleaners? Try SNA’S for the kids who need help to keep up. When they lose theirs (as my son did), the teacher has to try to keep the class moving at a particular speed whilst also trying to ensure that kids with special needs don’t get left behind. And don’t be ridiculous about the questions, the teachers don’t include questions on the areas that aren’t covered. And in the instances where there may be a question just like that (unintentionally), the students can ignore it. Exams haven’t changed all that much, they still have multiple choice.
My kid has learning problems and could do without this.
It’s only January.. Why would a 2 year course have to be finished by now?
Depending on the subject the curriculum should be done either by Christmas or just after the mocks revision of topics is really only a guarantee for April and May.
Having teachers grade their students work is not going to work, there will be a tendency to mark a little easier and will skew results, teachers care about their students and that is why neutral markers are needed for exams..
Teachers already mark their students exams at Christmas and summer in first year, at Christmas and summer in second year, at Christmas in third year, at Christmas and summer at fifth year and at Christmas in sixth year plus all
the smaller exams students have.
I don’t see how the Junior Cert is so different to all those exams especially as so few rely on it today.
This is about teachers being expected to do more work with no more money in return. The whole marking their own students exams is a complete red herring.
If other countries manage it, why can’t we?
It works in other countries because their university admissions process is not centralised.
Competition between schools is bad enough with the points race and league tables. The pressure from parents and schools on teachers for their students to “improve” will lead to a further dumbing down of the education system.
I’m with the teachers 100%.
All those exams are in house exams, although somewhat diminished in value, the Junior Cert is still a state exam and as such should be marked accordingly, as someone posted below it would be like a driving instructor marking their learner drivers exams..
Try getting into university with a junior cert! With Conor on this.
@Reg, this is a first step. Although it is ‘just’ the junior cert at present if these changes happen the next step would be to use the new assessment procedures for the leaving cert. if that happens our education system would be seriously undermined.
I’m not a teacher nor work in the educational sector.
Because they’re state exams you lemon
Reg do you seriously believe that if this gets through then the LC won’t be the next target?
I’m not quite sure what the problem is.
Are the teachers saying that they can’t be trusted to be fair?
Odd stance for any profession to take, maybe I’ve got it wrong.
Jim there will be a serious conflict of interests. The teachers should not be put in that position.
No it’s simply intelligent to make a system that can’t be messed around what a troll
Continuous Assessment at third level is graded by the lecturers who set it.
CA can take you within spitting distance of a pass.
What’s the difference?
Connor and reg make perfect sense, and put forward straightforward Siemens, but the teachers brigade are 100% behind striking for what they are told is “quality of education” – no dissent, not one teacher putting forward that maybe this might make sense, save money and release it to employ more young teachers. Nothing, just tow the union line. No wonder so many of you end up in FF/FG/Lab parties, exactly the same blind faith in their clique there.
I agree with your comment Diarmuid…and the 40% rule would mean 40% of students get a better grade while 60% get a fair grade. On the whole I side with the teachers but they should not have strikes. They should have given all students an A1 grade in the state exam. It would only need to happen once and when CAO could not function it would revert back to the old method and all the papers would need to be re-graded fairly. It’s pretty shocking that a teacher could end up grading a family member, how are they supposed to get a fair grade? Or imagine some scag dad calling round to some nerdy maths teacher and squaring up to him because he wasn’t happy with his child’s grade. I remember the scags in school, many years ago, used to get away with murder, all because their parents would come in all guns blazing with rubbish about their child being victimised because they were disciplined after kicking eight shades out of some poor kid. It would be a similar situation with grades, they would get something that they didn’t deserve
It is about saving money. I am one of those young teachers. I have twelve hours a week and do not get paid for holidays, like nearly twenty percent of the teaching population. I will never get a permanent contract. I am however not gullible and naive enough to think the savings will be put back into an already decimated education system.
The community and personal feel of a secondary school cannot be compared to third level. They are mature students who don’t sometimes act the clown. They are a number, not a neighbour, a friend’s kid, the bully, the timid kid… I get to know these students for three years and know their family backgrounds.
I have taught in this proposed system abroad and the pressure from management, parents other teachers is immense. If it’s not bribes it is threats. Countries are changing back to our system as they have realised they are promoting an unfair school league table.
One town with two schools will have completely different exams and corrections which will further promote an already widening gap, socially and educationally. We have the fairest state exams in the world. Why change this?
This is all about austerity. Bringing in a single exam for important subjects like science is ridiculous. It will bore the able and alienate the weak. I’m sick of repeating these arguments on here. Austerity is killing education, which is the key for future generations to excel.
Students making a last minute appeal not to have a day off school? The students doing this are the type who remind the teacher they haven’t given any homework and who are roundly and rightly despised by their colleagues.
Indeed, but now their moaning about being given a whole day extra revision time which would have been a gift when it was coming up to my exams. These ones are only concerned about themselves and are failing to see the bigger picture and obviously haven’t been taught about the general running of things, does make you think about the lowering of age to vote debate
Students today are more mature and value their education, they realise that their progress in life is highly dependent on the upcoming exams and 10 days away from their mock exams teachers decide to take a day off; and you are calling them snitches? Grow up, you spoilt pretentious twit.
In fairness, tis the students ‘appealing to the teachers at the 11th hour’ that come off as a bit pretentious.
It’s one day. Lá amháin! It’s not going to cause an academic meltdown in students with enough ambition to be on student councils.
If their mock exams are in 10 days they should have already covered the material and should be using the time off to study, not writing up pathetic pleas to their teachers!
Ask any student has their teacher fully covered the curriculum. (Hint: they haven’t)
What a sweeping generalisation. This is about protecting education standards in Ireland. Shame on you if you cannot see that.
Excuse me but I’m a Leaving Cert student who has her Mocks in a few weeks & I would like to you know that yes, we have covered most of our curriculum. Except for the big subjects like Biology and Maths, everything is done in English, History, French, Music and Irish. And regardless, we’re taught to study at home in the evenings and weekends so why should one day off make a difference? The teachers are striking for something that is right. They shouldn’t have to grade any of that work because it’s unfair and dangerous for both student and pupil. So maybe get both views on things before you start shooting your mouth off, please and thank you.
He did get two views. We’ve all heard the teachers views and this morning we heard the students views.
What you really meant was why doesn’t he just listen to your view.
How intellectually stunted do you have to be to post a comment like that? All I meant was that he needed to get two full views, because the woman posting throughout the comments was saying students don’t have their courses completed and in fact, we have 90% of it completed.
And good luck to you Shannon. As Andrea stated above, it is not expected that the curriculum is completed in all schools. I am not sure what level you are at (Honours/Pass), or what size school you are in (don’t reply with this as it is private to you), but not all students or schools are in that position.
I’m always interested in listening to both views, but there is only one dominant view online today. Articles related to teachers are heavily one sided, more than any other subject – but can you be devil’s advocate – do you know why the change is being made to the junior certificate by the department of education. Not why teachers have been told to strike, but what benefit it has and the research that has been completed into it. I have all viewpoints, are you sure you do?
actually, forget being nice – you don’t call someone “intellectually stunted” and then go on to say that you have all courses completed. All 90% of them. All. 90%!
If you want to get by in life, don’t insult people because you disagree with them. You might need the doctor sometime.
As a student, I can confidently say that 99% of us are delighted with the the day off! Furthermore, the protests are validated by the fact the proposed changes are ridiculously open to favouritism and corruption.
Jesus I would have been crying with happiness of they went on strike when I was in school. Study at home of you are that bothered otherwise enjoy the day watching DVD,s or dossing with your mates like everyone else. Besides that they are right to strike. Anti workers rights already at that age is worrying
Teachers correcting their own students is like a driving instructor performing the state driving test on their learner drivers
My young fella was delighted and I was happy to see him happy – and he likes school .
The odd day is no harm at all – I’ll tell him about O’Connell and Parnell and show him how they are nothing like the current shower, then I’ll show him the Penal Laws and ask him – Who does Enda remind you of ?
Education is everywhere !
He’s in for a treat so
If it was really one day off then I’d have to agree…however, at my child’s school the first strike hit in December, then they were off December 8th, then a day off the 15th for a “study” day before Christmas tests started, running until the 23rd, and then two days off on January 5th and 6th (while the rest of the country seemed to get back to school) to start school again on the 7th and now another day off. It feels tiring and disruptive.
Saying all that, I feel that Ruari Quinn made changes for change sake and wasn’t in the position to implement it and now Jan O’Sullivan is trying to pick up the pieces in an initiative that she did not invent. Whatever the decision, I hope they come to a resolution which makes sense and benefits the students.
Yeah – it used to be my favourite part of school – Irish heroes of character , It seems to have been cut from the curriculum now.
Parnell was instrumental in opening minds to the ridiculousness of no divorce …but people forget that because as kids we looked at the Kitty O’Shea thing as the Catholic Church being bullies …
Look at it this way … Seeking
Last year your school had a really good gaelic football team that won the all-Ireland – This meant that the children all missed more days in school than other schools that didn’t loose days to big matches.
This year your team will be knocked out in the first round and you will have a load more days in school .
The results between this years and last years will actually not be that different believe it or not and the great thing about a strike is that it effects every student equally – every student that sits the leaving Cert this year will have missed today – can’t get fairer than that !
I often think that sometimes people worry about the wrong aspects of education – When do parents ever actually question what their children are been taught ? We assume our children are learning the same thing as us – but are they ?
Jan O Sullivan lasted a year in teaching before going abroad to do montessori. A failed teacher as minister for education. Sums up the hypocrisy in this country and government. She should take her head out of the sand and realise these changes are simply not going to work. 27,000 teachers, they can’t all be wrong.
Actually, most of the best education systems in the world have eliminated rote learning and high stakes state exams in the middle of the secondary school cycle. Finland is a good example. We should aspire to best international practice in Ireland too.
Agreed, how many of us have learned stuff off by heart without understanding what it meant, same could be done in majority of college courses too!
‘The equal angles of an isosceles triangle are wandering lonely as a cloud’ – Bismarck
Yup,still got it
Nail on the head, Ian. The finish system is very progressive and equal. Can you imagine how a proposal to abolish the junior cert and change the way every teacher has learned how to teach would be accepted here?
(BTW: for teachers, it would mean continuous assessment in 3rd year, and marking your own exams if that sounds familiar)
God forbid the teachers might have to do some extra work,cushy number, must get 3 + months in days off
Trickytrixter you are some clown.
Take your head out of your a##e and look at the bigger picture. This is about student welfare. Trying not to dumb down our national exams.
Also if you have a problem with the holidays and cushy number teachers have then why not get yourself your degree, postgrad and teaching qualification and join them.
After all it is easy, isn’t it?
Or is this just petty resentment because you didn’t quite fit in yourself in school so therefore you hate all things educational?
Sure teachers are the enemy afterall.
Just shows you have no idea what the profession entails.
Lol and you sir are the catch of the day
Fair play teachers! At the very least your union has a backbone
It would be a breath of fresh air if the media actually reported on the other elements in the department’s proposed reform of the JC.
The introduction of common level subjects, with the exception of English, Irish & maths. This would result in an immediate lowering of standards in these subjects & then the standard of the LC would have to follow.
If students and parents alike knew this, then they would be out alongside the teachers.
Brace yourselves, Newry.
That’s unfair, amos – every school I passed today has between 4 and 5 teachers on the picket line;
I would have thought that having a large picket would make more of an impact, but either a) teachers don’t really care, it’s mandatory to be in the union so let them strike but don’t expect me out or b) some are using the union’s mandated strike as a day off – no loss to teachers who don’t bother picketing, just so long as the union gets something to threaten the government with. 1913 lockout, it certainly isn’t.
They’re not allowed to picket at once.
Ok allen
@Alien8
You are very misinformed about striking.
1. Mass picketing is illegal. Groups of 4-6 people is recommended.
2. All members of the two unions must strike, with certain exemptions on medical grounds. All members of the two unions will lose a days pay for the strike, no exceptions.
3. Being in a union is not mandatory, there are a good number of teachers not in either union. It doesn’t mean these teachers don’t support the strike. Granted, some may not support it.
Why don’t they strike during the summer?
The idea of a strike is to inconvenience, if they did it in the summer, nobody would care. It would be like bus drivers striking at 3 in the morning…
Because they are wise.
Because majority of them dont work during the summer!!
how about September?
Because the January sales aren’t on during the summer.
I believe the talks were still ongoing in September. Imagine if they had gone on strike pre-emptively? They would never have heard the end of it..
Ah Cause there’s no school…!!!!
Absolutely no objections to JC reform from the majority of teachers. We are on strike not about the reform but for the assessment of our own students work. There is no doubt that if this goes through for Junior Cert that the same will happen for Leaving Cert.
It appears to me that most parents and students are supporting teachers on this matter.
Its a disgrace. Let’s be honest the real problem is that involves extra work for teachers. The argument being put forward that there is a conflict in interest by grading students holds no weight. Maths, science, geography, business, all languages basically 90% of the subjects are not subjective so either the answer is wrong or right. Exceptions to this are English, History and art which may have an element of subjectivity but surely this can be worked around.
On a side note I notice that most teachers are striking in shifts. In other words doing 45 minute shifts and then having the rest of the day off . if you want credibility at least protest for the full day. Why not protest during the summer holidays too your actions are only affecting the students that you claim are your main concern.
I am expecting a lot of red thumbs for previous comment but I take solice in knowing that they are all coming from teachers. I suppose teachers agreeing to doing more work is akin to turkeys voting for Christmas.
Eamonn, I don’t always agree with teachers, but they are dead right on this one. These changes will ruin the education system, and no self-respecting teacher should support that.
I’m not a teacher but when the last strike took place, someone pointed out that the teachers are actually not permitted to strike all at once and for more than 3 hours (that could have been 2 and a half hours, I can’t quite remember but it was certainly longer than you’re suggesting).
Eamon, they are doing 45 minute shifts because the unions said it is illegal to mass picket.
It is illegal to picket en masse- that is why they picket in shifts. Get your facts right before you teacher-bash!
The marking of the exam is one element- did you know that each individual school will set its own curriculum for each subject?
Then they will set their own exam.
Then they’ll mark their own exam.
Where is the logic in that?
How can any standards be maintained nationally if exams are set on a school by school basis?
Illegal to mass protest. Don’t believe everything the unions tell you. So you are telling me that if say 30 teachers are protesting outside a school the guards will come along and arrest them and charge them with a public order offense?
Illegal or not allowed by the gardaí- take your pick!
Think of it, when workers in a big hospital or factory strike, do you see 30 there at a time? Perhaps it’s a public safety issue, whichever, it’s considered best practice in Ireland.
Even if it was about Teachers having to do more work for less money is that not still a reason to strike?
In reality if the proposed Junior Cert goes through, the Leaving Cert will be targeted next. It will destroy our Education system. This whole thing is just about the government trying to save money.
Do you have any idea of the pressure that will be on students to get good results from schools, boards of management and parents. Its not fair.
And no I am not a teacher of any sort.
I couldn’t find this on the statute books – In a hospital, mass picket would be discouraged as it would have an impact on patient safety (i.e. non-picketing nurses would be allowed to work). Is this also the case that teachers who want to work (say leaving cert teachers) would be allowed to work.
I would say it’s a red herring – what is the point of no teacher being allowed to work by the union, and then not able to participate in the strike?
When you have a minister who says yes I will talk to the teachers, but there will be no change. That is not negotiations, why do we still retain the Junior Cert, they can’t leave school at 14 / 15.
People have got to realise that this issue isn’t about teachers salaries or working hours it’s about the quality of the students education.
I’m delighted that the students are beginning to have a voice in this conversation. How about reviewing the university’s admission policies. The points race is driving this.
oink! oink! oink! ah bless god forbid they have to work one more hour then needed, don’t people know their teachers damn it!
The junior cert doesn’t matter for jobs but it’s great practise for our über needlessly “well rounded” state exam
Personal opinion on irish. How many hours wasted so I can speak the odd word when I don’t want a foreigner to know what I’m saying
My father sat his leaving cert in the 1938, I sat mine in the 1977, my youngest will sit hers in 2016. In my father’s day the key was to pass the Leaving, pass with an honour of possible. In my day it was about how many honours and “complimentary honours” you got. My daughter’s generation now talk about A1′s and 600 points. Essentially the broad thrust of the exam system has remained the same throughout those three generations, its just the results expectation that has changed. It is essentially about cramming as much knowledge of a course into your brain to regurgitate it during a single three hour exam in June.
The method that the education system uses to achieve these results has changed over those three generations too but it has only changed to cope with the demands of the exam system. I recently heard one of my daughter’s pals talk about learning “an essay off.” While this is only one facet of what these exams have done, learning a formulated essay is to spew it out in response to a question in June is not educational in my view.
Exams need reform and the Junior Cert is the right place to try to change it. In a modern education system continuous assessment seems a fairer way of getting the most of many ways of acquiring knowledge that now exist. It is worth a try.
Teachers have consistently spoken about how this dispute is not about money and have citing their willingness to forgo two days pay while on strike as a proof of this. My experience of life tells me that any strike is always settled by money and I suspect that if the Junior Cert reform was sweetened by a 10% pay increase we would not be where we are now. If it is really not about money take your strike action against the Junior cert reforms by refusing to supervise or mark the Junior Cert in 2016 but leave the hard pressed Leaving Cert students alone.
Excellent point john
Whole school closed here and only 4 teachers out picketing
Stay away from Newry. Teachers shopping on future earnings correcting the Junior Cert.
This big fuss about it being unfair on everyone involved for a teacher to mark a portion of their students exams is ridiculous. Teachers have been doing so in other countries for years with no issues, why is it a problem in Ireland? And it is unfair to be taking days off just before an important exam. Students need their teachers, and some students panick if they aren’t around before an exam, studying at home be damned.
have your say