Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
Updated at 16:15
SENATOR DAVID NORRIS used official Seanad headed notepaper to write appealing for clemency for his former partner Ezra Tizhak Nawi, it has been claimed.
The Palestinian activist has been convicted by an Israeli court of having sex with an underage Palestinian teenager in 1992.
Speaking on RTÉ’s Saturday View this afternoon, Trinity College lecturer Dr Elaine Byrne said that the letters had been leaked, but that no clear recipient is known. She said further details are expected to be published tomorrow in the Irish Mail on Sunday.
However, the newspaper said this afternoon that it would not comment on what it was or wasn’t publishing tomorrow and added that Byrne’s comments are “categorically untrue in every respect”, according to Suzy Byrne of Maman Poulet.
Elaine Byrne also said she spoke to members of Norris’ campaign staff who said they felt that the presidential candidate was not forthright enough with them and they were not aware of all the relevant information.
TheJournal.ie has not been able to make contact with Norris’ campaign team today.
Two senior members of his campaign staff resigned from their positions without offering explanations, according to newspaper reports today. At least three other campaign members said today they were resigning from the youth campaign team, but without elaborating further.
Journalist Una Mullally wrote:
Enjoyed volunteering in a small role for the Norris for President campaign. To clarify, in light of new information I am no longer doing so.
Orlaith Foley said:
As of this morning,I have resigned from the Norris for President campaign team and no longer hold the role of Youth Coordinator. #aras11
Earlier this year, Norris was involved in a controversy regarding comments he made during a 2002 magazine interview regarding pederasty.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
Israel dirty tricks, smear campaigns…….. I am shocked! Davis Norris is a Liberal in all things including sexuality. I still want him for president. Lets see what the Journal poll is like on Monday.
Thats it blame the Israeli’s. If the British or Chinese had said it.Would there be a problem??
He used government paper to ask for clemency for a former partner to be given clemency for raping a child.
Yet you want to lay blame at Israel??
I’m sorry I was under the impression they leaked the letter.
No evidence to say they did.If they did though.Does that not mean we see the person Norris is. He abused his power to get a former partner off charges of sexual assault of a minor. SHAME ON HIM.
Lay your anger at Norris for his abuse of power,Not the Israeli’s. This was bound to come out.I am surprised it didn’t 2 months ago.
he didnt rape a child, he had sex with an underage teenager. hetero men have been singing about 16 and 17 year old girls in rock n roll songs for decades which nobody has thought twice about.
Barry, repeat yourself as many times as you like, you’re still jumping to conclusions. Maybe wait until the full story is out before sharpening the pitchfork or building the bonfire, eh?
Norris engaged in a corrupt action seeking clemency for a 40 year old man guilty of having sex with somebody underage and using State paper. It’s CLEARLY Israel’s fault.
Graham. Norris can’t and wont survive this.
If this is true. Not only must he stand down from the race but resign as a Senator and be brought before a Parliamentary ethics committee for abuse of power .In his attempts to get favours for his friends.
Norris asked for clemency for his ex-partner accused of a crime in Israel.
So far we don’t know what the crime is or how the case was run.
We don’t know if evidence was presented or if he copped a plea.
At the moment the jury is out as far as I’m concerned.
I don’t see this as a “blame the Israelis” thread.
I see it as a “let’s find out the facts first” thread.
Thats why the very first comment is “Israel dirty tricks”??
Look end of the day no politican should ask for clemency for friends. It isn’t ethical
Frank, having sex even consensual sex with an underage teenager is rape. Singing about it isn’t.
So you comfortable with abuse of kids ,? do you find that ok. Norris should be hounded out of the Senate,as a taxpayer i help to pay his wages and i am very unhappy about that.
If this is true then he will have to resign as a senator. Putting aside liberal, homosexual labels etc, if he tried to influence a legal case for his former partner, then that’s pretty serious.
Asking for clemency is not the same as trying to influence a legal case. You suggestion implies that David Norris tried to pervert the course of justice, and I for one would find that very difficult to believe of the man. If you don’t know the facts and you don’t know the law, perhaps its best to wait until the facts come out and the law is clear.
The question needs to be asked of Norris, why after unequivocally stating earlier in the campaign that he abhorred anyone who was involved in the sexual abuse of minors did he plea for clemency for an individual who was convicted of such a crime?
…on Seanad headed paper (ie not just representing himself, but on behalf of you and me)…
Stephen
I am with you on this one, I was with DN when I heard the initial media storm regard the interview with Magill Magazine that took place years ago, but when I read this piece about the x partner I said that’s nothing to do with him, but if he intervened as has been implied, he’s lost my vote!
Why do I get the feeling that the timing of this story coinciding with the first presidential debate is no coincidence?
Graham gosh your mad for the conspiracy theories. I am glad it came out. Truth always does. Norris should never have sent that letter . Politicans should not seek FAVOURS FOR FRIENDS. SIMPLES
Well I’m sorry if I’m not about to jump on the bandwagon for lynching David Norris just because it hasn’t actually been proven to me that he’s done anything wrong. Right now all we have is smoke and mirrors, smear and rumour. Would someone actually like to show me the evidence?
Well if its all wrong.Can you tell me.Why is his campaign team resigning and Norris refusing to comment?????
Because they’re spineless and disloyal? Because they suspect there’s more to this and they feel betrayed? Because they know its an Israeli smear campaign timed to affect our choice of President and they’d frightened out of their nuclear-powered underpants what Norris would do to them if he was president, especially if the case against his ex partner was based a trumped-up charge and they didn’t follow due process? Especially since this would be personal and they saw what Norris had done for the people of East Timor against the corrupt predations of the Suharto regime in Indonesia?
I don’t know why they failed to stand by him – its embarrassing for everyone, but I’ll wait to see what facts come out of all this before making a judgement call.
Michael
If he did send a letter to an Israeli judge, on Seanad notepaper, then it’s not the Israeli’s that are interfering, it’s Norris, as an Irish senator, who was interfering in Israeli court issues. And if he did write a letter to an Israeli court asking for clemency for a person who had sex with an underage boy then Norris’ race for the presidency is finished. But is there anything that goes on in the world that some people like Michael don’t blame Israel for?
Asking for clemency as a Senator is not interfering with anything. Its a request that justice be tempered with mercy. I’m amazed that some who posts in fluent English seems unaware of these interrelated concepts. “The Merchant of Venice” obviously wasn’t on YOUR school curriculum…
The issue is the use of State paper to get a friend off a court case in which he was convicted of sexual assault of a minor.
Gas to see people jumping to defend Norris. I wonder if it had been a Catholic Priest or A Fianna Fail Senator using Seanad paper to write to UK authorities to get a friend of a sexual assault charge would people be so kind.
Seems there will always be blind followers of Norris who see him as never able to do wrong and then there will be those that will use this as a chance to bash Israel.
I am glad the Israeli’s (IF THEY ACTUALLY DID) showed us how corrupt Norris really is.
The truth always comes out in the end,
Well said, Barry. And in case anyone wonders about my bona fides, I’m no fan other either FF or the Catholic Church.
Calm down lads. He just asked a judge to show mercy, NOT to let anyone off with a crime.
Cormac are you for real. So if a FF or FG Senator asked for Clemency for a friend convicted of sexual assault.You would also see that as ok?
Barry, you have no clue what this is about because the facts are not yet before the public. I’m in the same boat, but I’m neither offering unqualified support to Norris nor am I knocking the Israelis. I’m waiting to learn the facts, both about the case and the request for clemency.
This all shows further how unfit Norris is for President.he can’t even respect the position he was in and abused his Oireachtas position.
There is nothing to knock the Israeli’s for.There is no evidence they released it.If they did.Who knows could have been an Freedom of Info request.Asked for by Irish media or other campaign teams.
I’ve known about Ezra Nawi for years and his sexual assault only a few months ago. This was always going to come out.Even if Norris never had written a letter to help him,But his former partner assaulted a Palestinian child. This was going to happen.
Norris’s campaign team have quit and he is practically hiding.I think it says it all
What has something his former partner done got to do with Norris? He asked for clemency. Perhaps there was a potential sentence of capital punishment and he got it commuted to a prison term. You simply do not know the facts – as you have consistently proved with almost every post you’ve made. And you seem to be worried in case anything like what I have suggested is brought out. Are you suggesting that seeking clemency is somehow failing to uphold the law, or uphold democracy? Your acquaintance with either concept seems slight, if that is the case. Thanks for outing yourself.
Who if any of you have actually seen this letter? We ought all to stop jumping to conclusions and wait till we get actual proof of this.
If it was all lies.Why have his campaign team quit and he not come out this morning and said that?
No one saw the papers from the Vatican about Cloyne .Are you disputing that happened?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0713/cloyne_report.pdf – The Cloyne Report in full, learn 2 google
Norris has no chance of becoming president… there’s probably a lot more controversy to come out about him yet.
Aside from all the drama, I don’t think Ireland needs him as president. He won’t be getting my vote.
Exactly
To say that DN has been unfairly treated because he is gay, or that there is a sizeable constituency who would stop at nothing to prevent him winning is deluded rubbish.
We all have skeletons in our closet but they tend to come out during election campaigns- it’s in the nature of electoral politics and this is the first time DN has been exposed to such scrutiny- the Seanad elections hardly count at all.
We have only had two episodes- one was the digging up of an old article by the woman who wrote it…hardly a dirty tricks campaign. We still have to see who or what is behind this second episode, but we should remember the whole media storm was precipitated by resignations from the campaign, not by a leak to the papers.
Norris’ campaign has been nothing short of crap. He opted out of debates on TV3, at the Magill Summer School and his campaign responded badly to the first episode and completely exploded at the second- whether that is due to the actual content of these letters, Norris’ non-disclosure of the matter to his team in the past or just the rats deserting the sinking ship is still to be seen. Not presidential material, get over it
Senator Norris was never going to be elected president in this country, despite what the opinion polls said, there are people who simply will not allow that to happen, they will not risk the Irish White House being turned pink and a gay man elected to it. How would that look to the rest of the world, oh the embarrassment? What if he were to move a partner into the Aras, would he be referred to as the first man. Imagine the parties, and what would the neighbours say? I know it sounds a little funny put like this but if all this has been known in certain circles for so long, and obviously it has if Barry knew, then why has it only hit the media now? I like David Norris, he seems quirky and as honest as one can expect someone to be without knowing them so I’ll reserve my judgement and try not to jump to knee jerk reactionism (never a good thing). None of us are perfect, we already know our politicians and church isn’t, but if any of us were to be put under a spotlight something would be found. We all have skeletons in our cupboards, Senator David Norris is no different and, to my knowledge, he never claimed to be.
I agree Brian. …… No point attacking for or against until the facts are out there. I do have one question…..were the man being charged not his ex partner as is the leak,,,,would he then be seen as attempting to assist an Irish Citizen? which I expect happens every day of the week? knowing no facts, it strikes me that the leaked words used are well chosen….
So the journal has copies of the letters that prove he sought clemency for his ex? …no.
Well they’re not up on your website so I think I’ll reserve judgement till I’ve seen these letters until then this isn’t really a story.
Correct and well said.
Raping a child is a little emotive don’t you think? If I get stopped by a Guard pissing behind copper face Jacks. I’m convicted of exposing myself in public and have to sign the sex offenders register. Its legally correct for you to call me a sex offender but its not really true. I don’t think David Norris would protect a child abuser, but two people in a consensual relationship where the young man maybe a teenager is a difficult line to walk. There are many different ages of consent in different countries, so you can be called a child molester in Ireland but not in eg Sweden. Its time for real discussion about these issues and David Is the perfect man to start the Debate.
Leaving aside the charges.Should an Irish politican use state headed paper to write to oversea’s authorities to seek clemency for ANY charge???
Get a grip, what a load of rubbish. Sex offenders list for pissing behind Copper Face Jacks??? Stop talking rubbish. We need more details about this letter before we can make any real judgment on whether David was right or wrong. First glance looks like he was very wrong but let’s wait till we know the full facts.
If he believes the conviction is wrong of course its correct.
someone is digging very hard to find dirt on him..1992…19yrs back…jeez why dont they want him to become president..hope its not true because he could be good for Ireland.
Does that make it right what he did. 19 years ago or not?
No, he won’t be
That’s not the point, the point is about his judgement. He unequivocally stated earlier in the campaign that he abhorred the notion that he was in favour of underage sex or anyone to do with that. It now appears that he may believe their are exceptions to that stated opinion.
People change over time, but that is not the issue here. You have deliberately confused a seeking after clemency with condoning the offence. They are different things and its not that subtle a distinction.
Was it rape?I don’t see it in the article?still highly illegal and disturbing because the child was underage and in legal terms could not consent.but still I don’t like the misinterpretation of words if it is not the case.
@Julie – it was statutory rape, ie sex with a minor.
From what I am reading, the Mail On Sunday is distancing itself from what Elaine Byrne said live on air. I wouldn’t be too quick to assume she has the full facts of the case at all.
Oh, lose the Jew-hate glasses for a while, folks. If the allegations related to any other embassy, ye’d be applauding them.
Ciaran……… You are the only person who mentioned the word JEW. People like you annoy the hell out of me. The government of Israel does not represent all the Jewish faith. In fact there are many protests against the government by Jewish groups. Anti Zionism is not Anti Jew. Inform yourself on the issues before making racist posts like the one above
No but the word Zionist is now put into the old steretypes about Jews. Think of many of the old anti Jewish statements .Take out the word Jew and put in Zionist and realise how often you’ve heard that statement.
Jews(Zionists) control the world, Jews (Zionists) control the media,, Jews(Zionists) cause wars. Jews(Zionists) are baby killers.
So Ciaran is right.
I’m not going to get into a debate or bother.As you were the first to attempt to whitewash Norris and demonise Israel for it all.Shame on you.Norris abused his power and should resign as a Senator.
Granted, not all anti-Israel folk are anti-semitic but I’ve been debating long enough to know that there is a significant overlap between anti-Israel sentiment and anti-semitism. And I’ve seen it here on TheJournal.
Barry I challenge you to find the word Zionist used in any main stream news article about the middle east. Seriously its like it doesn’t exist.
At least wait until the letters are confirmed legit. Innocent until proven guilty and all.
It’s disconcerting if true that Norris used his position to get a friend off a criminal charge against someone in other jurisdiction.
However I haven’t seen text of letter or the facts surrounding the case. Will have to withhold judgement until they are known.
He apparently asked for clemency, not for the charges to be dropped.
Still doesn’t mean its right. No one who sexually assaults a minor should be treated with clemency
Mr. Williams I hope you never find yourself the subject of speculation, and judged before all the facts are known. Also I must congratulate you, you must be the most moral person in the world who has never used your, job/contacts/position/family friends etc to help a friend however small for to use your position to do anything outside that which you are autorised is technically an abuse of position. In any case it maybe that Senator Norris should resign but let’s have all the facts before we hang someone, as many of you seem eager to do. By the way I’m not connected with any political party or organisation or group, just want to make sure that people know that this post has no other political motivation other then saying let’s only judge people once all the facts are known.
One second there is no need to attack me.
The issue is Norris abusing his power.Not only to ask for clemency in a foreign country using Seanad Eireann paper,BUT he asked for clemency for a sexual assault case for a minor.
If he had nothing to hide.He would not be hiding from the media since last night.Nor would his campaign team have resigned.
Never said I was most moral person in the world.But I’d never pull favours for a friend who abused a minor.Its bloody disgusting. Norris knew this all along and has been singin Ezra’s praises in Ireland for years.
This was bound to come out.I knew of Ezra’s sexual assault months and months ago and the truth always comes out.
The issue is you putting a slant on this Barry before all the facts are known. You were far too quick to wade in with judgemental comments. So much so that I’ve formed the opinion that you’re less pro-Israeli than anti-gay. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Michael how dare you.Your so wrong its a disgrace.
Interesting turn of events. I’ll wait for clarification – but if true, it was certainly an abuse of power.
Could the Journal confirm if Ezra Tizhak Nawi is Israeli or Palestinian. All I could find was that he was Jewish, and born in Jerusalem – But it does not state what part of Jerusalem, so it’s difficult to verify his nationality.
All the articles that I have seen have described him as Israeli.
Likewise Graham – Which is why I’m trying to clarify it.
He is an Israeli Jew.Who sexually assaulted the very people he was supposed to be helping.
Norris abused his powers as a Senator to seek clemency (ie get off) for his friend. That is wrong. How dare he.If any other Senator did that.They’d have to resign.
Barry – I already stated that if true, it was an abuse of power.
Clemency (ie. Mercy; lenience, as in- an appeal for clemency). Google it!
Cormac are you actually trying to justify what Norris did? You consider it ok.
No wonder we have the level of corruption in this country when even people like Norris are abusing their power.
No Barry, what I’m saying is all we know at the moment is he asked a judge to show mercy, not to let anyone off. Perhaps we should wait for the facts before we burn him at the stake. If he was out of order then I’ll light the fire with you.
Mercy why should anyone who assaults a child be given mercy??
Conor would it be ok for a Senator to write to a judge in America to show “MERCY” to a Priest who happened to be on trial of assault of a child???Can you answer that
Everyone deserves mercy, even a royal right wing pain in the butt like you Barry.
I know nothing about this specific situation but there’s a lot of politically-correct groupthink going on in these debates. Let’s think about some of the issues. There was a time, not so long ago, when all gay sex was illegal in this country. It’s not unthinkable that someone could still be prosecuted for breaking the law by having gay sex thirty years ago or whenever, when it was still illegal. And that’s regardless of the age of the partner. (This may become less unthinkable if “mandatory reporting” has its way.)
In some countries all gay sex is still illegal. So if a politician wrote in support of someone facing the death sentence in Tanzania (or wherever) for having sex with a 35 year-old, would that be wrong? And if not, where is the line to be drawn?
David Norris is an old-fashioned liberal with a great sense of humour and a scathing disregard for groupthink, whether of the Left or Right. Personally I’ll hold my fire until I know the facts, and I suggest others do so also.
LGBT rights in Israel are way ahead of Ireland. And it wasn’t “gay sex” and I take offence to you calling it that. Its was sexual assault with a minor. Wrong no matter what country.
Unless of course he was in over 14 and in Italy, right Barry? Any sign of a learning curve yet on the definition of “minor”?
For the record, I was pointing out that the justification for indignation rested on a statutory rape charge the standard for which is not universal – sex is legal at 14 in Italy.
Let’s see…. would it be acceptable for an Israeli parliamentarian to intervene in the Irish legal system in such a manner? And would the Israelophobes defend their right to do that?
People will know from previous debates here that I’ve been favourably disposed towards Norris but not any more.
Depends on the nature of intervention, and it is still unclear what the actual letters were (at least in the wider public domain, although campaigners have clearly seen them).- A character reference might be permissible but an appeal for clemency probably wouldn’t. Neither of these interventions would be interference in the strictest sense though. However, if he wrote letters on Oireachtas paper in order to unduly influence (a la Trevor Sergeant) then he should stand down.
One thing is clear to me- and I know some will disagree- but Norris’ judgement (or lack of it) and his inability to keep his own counsel makes him unfit to be President.
What’s you connection to Israel Ciarán?
:-) :-)
None whatsoever. Unless feeling that a country suffers unfairly from biased press coverage worldwide counts as a connection.
Ciaran.I wouldn’t bother with Michael. He is here to tarnish anyone who speaks out against Norris as homophobic and believes this is all Israel’s fault.
Did Israel hold a gun to Norris’s head and make him write that letter??NO.
I don’t recall tarnishing Ciaran – I asked him a question. I wanted to narrow down his likely motivations. Once again, Barry, you’re only source of exercise seems to be jumpaing at conclusions and making unfounded allegations – thanks for playing.
Barry your assuming that this is true.
This is not a report from the Gardai its a leaked letter with no recipient which in itself is strange(who the hell leaked it if there is no known recipient).
So please stop assuming this is true. Everyone commenting here thinks that paedophilia is disgusting.
No one is arguing with you about that.
What people are doing is letting the justice system determine whether these allegations hold any merit before labelling an individual in the way you are doing.
Imagine someone fabricated a letter and said you created it.
Imagine if the general public were as reactionary as you are being and decided to dispel the justice system and assume that you are a disgusting despicable human being.
Stop with the higher than though elitist view. People should not be harassed in the comments section for daring to consider a man innocent until proven guilty.
Surely if that was the case his campaign team would not have quit.Nor would Norris be dodging the media from his home.Nor would Ezra be like wise refusing to comment
And yet many on this board wo
Citing politicos running away as a reason for believing in a smear campaign?
Pul-lease!
Happy to stand corrected Susan, but sometimes its hard not to cal la spade a spade.
Seems like a certain delight in some of the posts. Bigots just waiting for an excuse to let loose on mr Norris. What a country! Going ballistic about events they no precious little about! Homophobia is oozing out today. And still the church, bastion of pederasty is allowed to prevail unchallenged. Get a life and go and have a good ride. Mr Norris has my vote.
Oh here we go again.Any criticism of Norris is automatically homophobia. PATHETIC.
Norris abused power,He should be treated like any other politican and forced to resign.Giving him special treatment because we are afraid of being accused of Homophobia is not progress its PATHETIC.
Fair play Barry, I was shocked the card wasn’t played earlier. IF he did wrong he should face the consequences.
What abuse of power? He sought clemency – he didn’t lead a campaign to try to have him cleared!
Barry Williams, you’re a liability to yourself with some of the stuff you’re coming out with, and you’re also lowering the tone of this entire discussion. Maybe you should step back from this until you’re in a more objective state of mind.
Carefull Liz. He just used caps lock on Johnthemull.
How ? What have I said thats lowered the tone.
If he had tried to get a judge to have “mercy” on a Priest convicted of sexual assault there would be outrage. The same level of outrage must be shown to Norris and I believe he MUST STAND DOWN AS A SENATOR. His abuse of power is the type of corruption I can’t stand about Ireland anymore.
Seriously Barry, Liz is right. You do seem to know more about this than the rest of us but we also need to get the facts before we start Norris bashing.
Barry, you cannot see the moral difference between coercive sex with a preteen by a much older person in authority merely using them as a sex toy and consensual sex with a teenager where there is no authority over them and there is a relationship.
Also you seem to think the Irish take on what constitutes a minor is written in stone and universal. It isn’t and this is a legal minefield waiting to explode in the EU and elsewhere.
The world is not black and white and where the Israelis are concerned you have to take into account that Ezra was a known Palestinian sympathizer. You have a lot of learning to do.
And please stop using CAPS – it just draws attention to your political and moral naivete.
Michael would you be happy for your son when he is 15 to have sex with a 37 year old man?
Answer one question why would a 37 year old man want sex with a boy aged 15?? Its warped and those rushing to defend Norris ,Most have the decency to say what Norris wrote and did was wrong. Your actually trying to defend what Ezra did .Which is very disturbing giving the fact this country has had an awful time with priest abusing children,
I didn’t defend Norris’ partner having sex with a teenager.
I defended Norris’ right to make an appeal for clemency to the Israeli Court.
Where did you get the boy’s age? Please cite your source.
If he did send a letter to an Israeli judge, on Seanad notepaper, then it’s not the Israeli’s that are interfering, it’s Norris, as an Irish senator, who was interfering in Israeli court issues. And if he did write a letter to an Israeli court asking for clemency for a person who had sex with an underage boy then Norris’ race for the presidency is finished. But is there anything that goes on in the world that some people don’t blame Israel for?
Nobody is blaming Israel per se.
Here are the documents
http://thesystemworks.wordpress.com/2011/07/24/my-take-on-the-norris-campaign/
Thats the blog that broke the story.I see no Embassy getting involved.Or are we back to bashing the Israeli’s??
This has nothing to do with homophobia. And to say such is an attempt to silence and smear those who wish to speak out.Is criticism of Shatter anti Semitic or Barak Obama racist? Norris is Church of Ireland.Is this a anti Protestant campaign too??
Some of us can look beyond peoples sexuality,.race ,religion and colour and don’t need to dwell on it.Or use it to silence peoples genuine concerns of abuse of his position as a member of Seanad Eireann
Some people seem to think that writing a Blog makes them competent to think of themselves as Journalists. It doesn’t – when making critical comments they should check their sources VERY thoroughly. Case in point. The blog you liked to cites a report on this site.
http://www.think-israel.org/oct09bloged.html
The current topic, apart from a pretty picture of an Israeli garden is this
ISRAELI COLONEL REFUTES DAMNING GOLDSTONE REPORT
Posted by Kenneth Timmerman, October 30, 2009.
The Goldstone Report criticized both the Palestinians and Israel. Here is an excerpt from that blog.
“Gruber also refuted oft-repeated claims by Goldstone that Israel used white phosphorus bombs during the Gaza operation. He showed photographs of real phosphorous bombs exploding, and compared them to actual footage of the bombs Israel used in Gaza. “We did not use phosphorus. Period. We used smoke bombs. You could walk through the cloud of smoke without feeling anything.”
Goldstone and his small team of U.N. investigators held two days of public hearings in Gaza last July and visited 36 sites in Gaza where local residents claimed that Israel had committed war crimes.
Israel refused to cooperate with the investigation because it was performed under the auspices of the United Nations Human Rights Council, a body where Iran, Libya, Syria and Cuba sit and they are slanted against Israel and the United States. ”
So, denial isn’t just a river in Egypt.
And what does this source of knowledge say about Ezra?
“”Nawi, a Jerusalem plumber, was convicted in 1992 for committing an indecent act on a minor, for illegal use of a weapon, growing and possessing drugs, entering a closed military area and transporting illegal Arab workers into Israel from the West Bank.”"
No detail, maximize the smear.
And what does “the blog that broke the story” say?
“Few are aware that Nawi was convicted of sodomizing an underage Palestinian Arab boy in 1992,”
So “committing an indecent act with a minor” becomes “sodomizing an underage Palestinian Arab boy”?
And you’re citing BOTH of these “sources” as full and authoritative and unbiased?
I don’t think so.
As I posted above, you jumped at conclusions and you’ve been told you look like you have an anti-gay bent to your posts.
Now, instead of waiting until the facts are exposed you’re scrambling to justify them, without properly checking your sources for signs of bias.
I notice both you and the “bloggers” you cite conveniently gloss over the fact that Ezra received widespread support from people of international standing quite apart from Senator David Norris, a known human rights activist himself.
If you’re going to present issues as fact, as opposed to opinions – check your sources!
Attack me all you want Michael.
I go away for an hour and come back to a torrent of abuse from you and accusations of Homophobia.What next accusations of being anti Protestant.
I sat down and read Norris’s letter which he sent last night on Seanad paper. its a disgrace.His arrogance is shocking.
Yes there are different situations all over Europe for sex,but in Israel the law is sex between two 14 year olds is legal BUT sex with someone older the 3 years and seen as abusing power is illegal. EG Ezra aged 37 having sex with a minor. That was 15 .Thats wrong
Would you be ok Michael with your son aged 15 having sex with a 37 year old man??
Could Michael answer this question.Would you be so happy if Norris had defended a peado priest.??
I mean 3 years as in a 15 year old and 18 year old is not illegal .But a 15 year old and 20 year old would be if there is evidence of abusing your power over them.At 15 even if the boy bloody wanted to Ezra should not have gone near him.Its disgusting.
I am attacking the quality of your argument and the parochial nature of your views on teenage sexuality. Feel free to defend them in the light of ht issues I have raised.
Parochial?? What parochial about saying Having sex with a 15 year old when your 37 is wrong??Even if the boy consented its wrong.
I am no longer going to actually debate with you.I find your ability to try and defend Ezra’s behaviour disgusting and I am glad Susan warned you about your abuse. Your attacks against me for the last hour have been pathetic.
Complaining to the Journal has removed some posts that were addressed directly to posters, but not the important ones that addressed the arguments by the poster. Truth cannot be silenced by complaints.
I usually manage to guard against ad hominems. I am happy to stand corrected and said so.
I am equally happy to comment on the documentation on the RTE website that shows the headed paper was used to give a reference and nothing more. The representation to the Israeli Court was entirely above board and on plain paper.
The argument against David Norris appears to have imploded.
Commentators should always check their facts before posting.
Commentators should also be careful what they post.
I defended David Norris’ right to seek clemency.
I did not, and do not condone or excuse the original act of his former partner.
However, as it was statutory rape, I have pointed out that we should look at the varying standards that apply in Europe and cited Italy as an example.
BTW I didn’t condone sex with a fifteen year old.
I pointed out that the age of consent is 14 in Italy and in the Vatican City.
I would appreciate a defence of the quality of the sources.
The interpretation of the the original comments here http://thesystemworks.wordpress.com/2011/07/24/my-take-on-the-norris-campaign/
The provenance of this blog which dismisses criticism of Israel and denies phosphorous bombs were used http://www.think-israel.org/oct09bloged.html
The issue is bias and factual reporting, not Israel-bashing
The link provided by Barry Williams is a far right blog where, along with an unhealthy obsession in supporting hardline Israeli politics and attacking anyone who doesn’t see the Mideast conflict in such stark black and white terms, the author is also one of 4 (!) people to “like” the hate site set up by a family of religious extremists in Mayo to attack the Civil Partnership Bill and David Norris personally, using some of the most vile and crude homophobic language out there. A supporter of Palestinian human rights AND someone who also happens to be gay must be a red rag to a bull for people of that mindset. There are also other other examples of extremist views on the blog/Facebook.
I would also suggest to Mr Williams that he exaggerates the influence of some obscure far right blog in “breaking” this story. The vast majority of people only became aware of it when it was published in Saturday’s Irish Times.
@Adam.
Go check your sources. The blog about Norris was published last monday. So yes “it” broke the story.
Maybe you could remind us all what day did the newspapers report on it??? Days after the blog.
@Barry Williams
Reread what I posted without your own added spin. My main point is that it was only when the story was reported in the mainstream media that the vast majority of Irish people became aware of the story, and not through an obscure and previously unheard of extreme right-wing website.
Look, I have no interest in engaging with you at any length because you are not posting here in good faith and just like your blogger friend, you are clearly working to an entirely agenda that has everything to do with smearing critics of certain Israeli policies and absolutely nothing to do with concern about a case involving underage sex. It’s also very revealing that you have nothing to say about the author of the blog “liking” or supporting the anti-gay hate site I referred to, particularly in light of your own (feigned) outrage at being labelled homophobic.
Susan. God help you! You have to read all this crap!
Ya I agree people are quick to jump to conclusions.
It’s like somebody’s putting together the script for the Irish Harvey Milk Movie…
Norris has many fine qualities but danger is that if elected President, there is a real danger that future leaks and revelations might seriously damage the office
Does anyone have a link to the actual case? The age of consent in Israel is lower than Ireland 14-16 and what were the circumstances behind the case? I really don’t see why half this debate has descended into Israeli bashing anyway. I can just see Boaz Modai reading this and going mental “What!! They blame us for this, they blame us for everything. Next they will be blaming us for Jedward!”
If the age of consent is lower in Israel (14 – 16) then you could only get a conviction if you had sex with someone aged 13 or less.
No Stephen, the 14-16 group is something to do with the older person being 3 years older or more than the younger. So the youth could in fact be 15. I don’t know really the facts of the case so thats why I was loooking for more info.
I didn’t see the link between Israel and Jedward before now. Thx.
Some of the comments on this post have been removed in line with TheJournal.ie’s comments policy: http://www.thejournal.ie/comments-policy/
Why do I sense a “mature recollection” moment is about to be unleashed on us by Senator Norris?
I doubt it – he knows his own history as well as the likelihood of all this being dragged up. I doubt its escaped his forward planning team. But then again, he’s not a strategic thinker, he stands for what he believes is right and supports it even when its unpopular.
Brian. Well said. Thanks.
I never claimed David Norris was being unfairly treated, whether he is gay or not. I do believe that, despite his popularity, he was never going to get elected and I have no idea if the man is snow white from here on, I’d like to think so. I’m well aware that politics tends to air your dirty laundry, publicly, as you said its their nature, but when you use phrases like “dirty tricks campaign” and “nothing short of crap” or “Not presidential material, get over it” I can’t help but get the feeling you don’t like Senator David Norris, I could be wrong.
The letter is available on the rté website http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0730/norrisletter.pdf
The covering letter is addressed to Barry Tsinn Esquire at 0097226251755 which seems to be an Israeli fax number. It seems to be on a Seanad Fax headed paper.
The reference letter is a general letter and seems to be on the same headed paper.
However the representation to the Israeli Court dated 29th August 1997 does not appear to be on Seanad headed paper..
I wonder what other facts may have have been misrepresented in this case.
No. Just the inhumane persecution of Palestinians.
Regardless of what issues this might raise that are specific to the Norris campaign (and we await further details on that), the fact is that David Norris has been subjected to a sustained and orchestrated smear campaign primarily motivated by homophobic prejudice, and aided it would now seem by a foreign embassy and the aggressive lobby that supports it.
That is one of the broader issues here and to suggest that anti-gay bigotry is not a factor is either extremely naive or downright misleading, depending on where you are coming from. Senator Norris has been held to a different standard and asked lurid questions about his beliefs and private life that no other candidate would dare be asked, simply on account of his sexuality (one unwelcome import from across the water particularly comes to mind here which I won’t dignify by calling a newspaper). That should be a cause of deep concern to all of us who are interested in politics and who are openly gay, of which there are many, and indeed to all fair minded people. It appears that there still exists a small but vocal homophobic minority in this country who will try to do down and prevent any LGBT person attaining high political office, and who cling to deeply unpleasant and utterly discredited stereotypes about gay men in particular.
But in the midst of all this nonsense, I’m glad of the fact that sexuality is not an issue for the vast majority of Irish people, as evidenced by the fact that Norris has been the most popular candidate in every single poll on the Presidency and other surveys on the likes of marriage equality (73% support and rising) also reveal that we are most definitely moving in a progressive direction. But, unfortunately, it seems this strong message has yet to reach some powerful and obviously well connected people.
I will be surprised to find the Israeli Government are directly involved.
I think this is a parochial smear campaign which is an attack on the man, not his policies or beliefs.
Look how some people on this thread have misrepresented Norris or anyone who defends his position as supporters of sex with people under the statutory age of consent.
Norris asked for clemency, citing Irish case law and practice to support it and wrote a letter to the Israeli Court.
For the record Norris also cited instances where he has lobbied in support of Israel as evidence of his impartiality and unwillingness to be seen as acting improperly.
I don’t see the moral Mary’s dissecting that endeavour, or worrying over whether it was on Seanad headed paper.
In short I see nothing wrong with that in law or in principle or morally or ethically with Norris actions.
Those who say this his lobbying evidence that he condones sex with minors are defaming him.
The case was decided as I understand it and this was about seeking leniency in sentencing.
Lobbying against sentencing is also practised widely here, in Britain and in America.
So in summary, underlying the smear campaign I sense a massive homophobic undercurrent, since nothing else seems to warrant it or justify it.
He says he is against paedophilia and I believe this. But then he looks for clemency in another jurisdiction for a convicted paedophile on government headed paper. This is not the behaviour of a head of state. Enda Kenny criticised the Vatican for interfering in our jurisdiction.
Define paedophile.
While as far as I’m concerned when you use the headed paper from any Irish government body, you are calling to a certain degree on the Irish peoples agreeing with you…Even if it was only a shoplifting charge or maybe a public display of affection that is illegal in said country, it is wrong to intervene like he did….I would like to hear a full explanation on the matter…
On saying this, I must say I find it odd that out of all the people in the presidential race, he is the only one that dirt seems to be dug up on? Have to say with him being an independant in the Seanad for a few years now, is it not amazing that none of this has been discovered before now.
He was wrong to intervene, when someone had broken the law, in the way he did, but I cannot help but feel that its going to be a dirty race to the aras:)
If you can show how it is wrong to make a humanitarian representation as a Senator please do so. Personally I don’t agree that it is, either morally or legally.
Michael every country has their laws, laws are not supposed to be broken…when he wrote on official irish government paper he done the wrong thing, there is nothing humanitarian about this case…
Actually the portion of the letter addressed to the judges was not written on seanad headed paper. Also it is anyone’s right to make a plea for clemency, and it happens quite frequently in our own justice system. He wasn’t asking for amnesty for the crime, simply lenience based on extenuating circumstances and the manner in which the case was heard, ignoring precident previously set by a similar case in Israel.
Can I suggest people read the documents before commenting here again?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0730/norrisletter.pdf
The covering fax note and a letter of reference are on Seanand headed paper.
The address to the Israeli Court is not shown on headed paper.
It is not even clear that the address was sent with the fax note or letter of reference, since the cover note appears to be silent on the matter.
The humanitarian aspect is the seeking for clemency – not the facts of the case.
well firstly i read the letter before i commented
secondly seeing that anyone who disagrees with you is subjected to a barrage of comments it is here i will bid you adieu
Having read the correspondence in the public field and heard the explanations, it strikes me that there is one big smear campaign going on here. Who’s to benefit? Perhaps the blueshirts, after all their morality so far in giving written and recorded promises to get elected and then reneging on them is quite in question – and I’m sure that they would prefer a honeymoon factor of Gay Mitchell getting the Arus to smokescreen all the austerity and other cuts they wish to get through. for me, I’d prefer a president who is gay rather than Gay who would be president.
I’d prefer a president who will help to bring about a value-for money public service but none of them seem willing to grasp this thorny issue, which I accept strays into political territory. Simply publicising Ireland as “a nice place to do business” doesn’t cut it IMO, and standing back from this whole debate for a minute, there is a huge implication for Ireland’s international stance if Israel actually was behind this. Perhaps we should give Israel a good lash if it comes out that they were trying to influence the Irish presidency.
However, having seen Barry’s Williams recent posting of some sources I’m not certain that Israel was anywhere near this. I saw an anti-Norris website the other night and it seemed to rest clearly on parochial politics and mores, not a tit- for -tat by a American client state. I suspect this is simply dirt-digging by pseudo Christian homophobics and the quality of his support team not being up to the mark to weather this storm.
http://www.universitytimes.ie/?p=3369
“The University Times has learned that staff were becoming increasingly agitated by Senator Norris’s inability to be managed or to take advice from his team of professional operatives. At the time of publication, it was understood that no official communication would be coming from the Norris campaign in relation to these claims.”
Hmmm. Curiouser and curiouser. Sour grapes?
The general thread here seems to be he shouldn’t have used official govt paper. If you read the letter you’ll notice he wrote to Nawi’s solicitor on headed paper (and he wrote an open letter character reference on headed notepaper). The letter to Nawi’s solicitor states he has enclosed the ‘appeal for clemency’ which is NOT written on headed notepaper. It is this letter that questions the validity of the case against Nawi and questions the severity of the sentence.
have your say