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“WHO WOULD MAKE a woman grow a baby just to watch it suffer and die? It’s barbaric and it really has to stop.”
That’s the plea of one woman who had to travel to the UK to terminate her pregnancy for medical reasons.
A number of women from the support group TFMR Ireland will tell politicians of their journeys from conception to mourning at a briefing in Leinster House this afternoon.
A documentary by Luke McManus, featuring some of the couples and women who lost their babies, will be shown ahead of the launch of Clare Daly’s proposed amendment to the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act.
The group is hoping for cross-party support to allow for the Bill which would give hospitals permission to terminate pregnancies where the babies are incompatible with life.
TDs and Senators will hear from six families, all of whom had to travel to the UK after receiving fatal diagnoses in Irish hospitals.
“Babies are precious in our families… It was a time of great excitement,” remembers the Edwards, while the O’Donnells recall “shopping for buggies and cots and everything”.
“We were blissfully unaware that anything could be wrong,” they say in the documentary.
“It was a Tuesday and the scan was at 5.30pm so Dave could come and we wouldn’t miss work,” another woman reveals.
Ruth Bowie, one of the founding members of TFMR, says: “In my gut, I felt there was something wrong. But then I thought I was being paranoid. I’m a nurse and sometimes we think the worst. I was kind of looking forward to being reassured.”
“I went in on my own at 26 weeks. The doctor went silent,” recalls Sarah McGuinness.
Other women recall similar moments.
Straight away, I saw her face. I knew something was wrong.
“The tone changed and the pace changed.”
The sonographer said I needed to call my husband.
“Rightly or wrongly, they started to tell me before John [my husband] came. They told me my child had no brain and no skull.”
‘I’m really sorry it’s bad news guys.’ She went through all the problems – no kidneys and fatal spina bifida, one of the more extreme cases she had seen.
“She’ll die because her heart will give out under the strain of your body, crushing her, basically – or in labour in distress, or if she was to survive those two cases, she would have been born in a lot of pain. They would have the pain team there and the palliative care team to medicate her. She would last minutes at most.”
It’s completely incompatible with life. You need to go home, think about what you need to do and come back to us in the morning. We can talk more about it then.
The couples will tell TDs of their shock at finding out that they would be required to leave the country if they chose a certain treatment path.
The doctor said we had two options – you can continue and we will scan you weekly. Or else you can travel. “
Sarah remembers, “At this stage, I was 26 weeks. I was six and a half months pregnant, I was quite big. My husband just said, ‘So will Sarah get a section then?’ He wasn’t even thinking about his wife being put through labour. I was thinking the same. But she just say, ‘No’. And I went, ‘Induced?’ and she said, ‘no’. ‘As it stands you will have to go to full term’.”
Gaye Edwards adds, “We felt like fugitives… we really did. We didn’t want anyone to know where we were going in case they tried to stop us. We had to leave the jurisdiction obviously. That phrase made it very clear to us that it wasn’t available in Ireland.”
The women and their partners discuss how the travel to the UK heightened the tragedy for them and their families.
We went on the boat at the 2.30am sailing. My partner drove up through the night to Liverpool. He was awake for 24 hours before we got there.
Ruth adds, “We went through checking in, through the security, feeling rotten, going and waiting on the gate and the plane to board. You see business men, people going on weekends away. It just felt so wrong to be in that situation.”
They brought us in to do the procedure where they’ll stop her heart. That was really sad. It made it really definite. This is really happening. They were really kind. They took their time. It was quick in the end. She said, ‘She’s gone now’. That was a hard moment.
Julie remembers, “It’s kind of like a normal labour actually. Which is nice in a way that you get to have a natural birth. I remember being really scared. Little things you hadn’t prepared for. We had a little outfit for him.”
Another touching memory shows a father having a moment with his daughter.
She was born then at nine o’clock in the morning. I still remember that you could hear people going to work, and you could hear the traffic. It was very peaceful when she was born. She was born very suddenly in the end.
I didn’t realise she was so ready to be born. I had sent the midwife out for something, when she came back she was born. Dave had caught her. Which was nice, I suppose, that her Dad had delivered her. He cut her cord.
The Edwards were also allowed some time with their newborn son.
“When Joshua was born and the midwives dressed him. We brought him back to the room in the hospital. We spent time as a family and a meal was brought in to us.
I remember one of the midwives said to us, ‘No matter what anyone says to you, you’re a mammy and a daddy now’. That was really, really important to us.
“We didn’t know what he was going to look like. He was beautiful. He was almost perfect. He was tiny. We spent a few hours with him,” Julie says on the documentary, in tears.
Ruth, who had her procedure carried out in a clinic, had a less empathetic experience.
We were there for about an hour, maybe, and they said, right you can go now. If I had been in my right mind, I would have just said we had nowhere to go because our flight back isn’t until tonight. I said OK but then we had nowhere to go.
“So we just got our taxi into the centre of Birmingham and we literally just wandered the streets and went from coffee shop to coffee shop. I remember at one stage we contemplated going to the cinema so we could sit down somewhere.”
They did everything they could to make it bearable but there came a point we had to leave the hospital and leave him behind. That was the hardest thing.
Many of the women point to the fact that they have other children that they have to leave behind in Ireland to travel for the procedure.
I discharged myself from hospital. I just wanted to get home to my own bed, to my daughter, to my family. Whereas, if you were able to do it in an Irish hospital, you wouldn’t feel the need to rush back as fast.
The documentary also hears from the mothers’ husbands and partners.
“To go back to an awful hotel room in the evening? That was the worst pain,” says James Burke.
Then flying back on a cheap flight from Liverpool to Dublin on a Saturday morning with hen parties celebrating and having a great time while we’re just after going through the worst period of our lives? That was the worst thing ever.
Families also said that they felt an added pain because they had to leave their children in the UK because of restrictions on carrying human remains.
“All our family and friends would have loved a proper ceremony and would loved to have supported us. But that wasn’t really an option,” explains Sarah. “With Liverpool, there is an issue with bringing a body home. All of that really compounds the absolute misery and heartache that couples have to go through.”
Julie and her partner flew back for the cremation of Aidan but, again, had to leave him there
The ashes were posted back to Dublin. We weren’t allowed bring them on the plane and carry them with us.
The Edwards also don’t have a grave for their son.
His cremated remains were delivered by courier a week or two after he was born. A courier van arrived at the door with a jiffy envelope with a cardboard box where his remains are.
“I can’t rest. I even feel I can’t get over my own anger until it is changed because it’s happening to people every week and it’s totally unfair,” says Ruth.
Sarah adds, “There could be 1,000 couples a year that travel. But we can’t get statistics. Because once you leave the care of your maternity hospital, you are not on the records anymore.”
“Government in the last 13 years has consisted of pretty much every major political party,” says Edwards. “They’ve all chosen to ignore this. They’ve all chosen to pretend that it’s not really happening.”
The O’Donnell’s bring up another issue important to the TFMR campaign.
“Abortion is a conversation and there are two sides to it,” they say. “You can understand the pro-life and the other side of it. This is completely separate subject that needs to be given the consideration it deserves.”
Gaye Edwards also highlighted how long this situation has been unchanged.
When I saw the other women from TFMR appear on the Late Late Show and being on the radio and in the press 11 years after we had gone through ours, I felt a certain amount of shame that we hadn’t been able to change things for them.
Clare Daly will introduce her Bill on Friday which would, if passed, enable provision for terminations of pregnancy to be permitted in cases of fatal foetal abnormalities.
Ahead of the Dáil session, Daly and TFMR Ireland have invited TDs and Senators to watch the documentary and to vote for the amendment next Tuesday.
“Many TD’s and Senators across the parties have already expressed support for a change in legislation on this issue,” TFMR has said in a statement.
“While we are grateful that so many politicians have gone ‘on record’ as supportive, expressions of support for change without a willingness to enact that change is actually only adding insult to injury.
“We continue to maintain that this is not a debate about abortion or the right to life of the unborn,” they continue.
“This situation only arises where the right to life cannot be engaged because of a medical condition suffered by the foetus such that it is incompatible with life outside the womb. The proposed amendment includes a provision that two suitably qualified medical professionals (an obstetrician and a perinatologist) jointly certify in good faith that the foetus in question is suffering from a fatal foetal abnormality.
“We feel that this, together with the fact that in reality no parent will undertake a medical or surgical procedure to bring about an end to their pregnancy on the basis of a single medical diagnosis offers sufficient safeguards and is in keeping with the constitutional requirement to protect life ‘as far as practicable’.
“This amendment, if passed, will enable parents to discuss the options available to them with their own medical teams. If they then make the decision to bring the inevitable and tragic end to their pregnancy forward, this choice would be available to them.
“By enacting this Bill, the stigma associated with these decisions will fall away, parents will be able to deliver their babies in Ireland with their own medical teams and with the support of their families around them.
“They will no longer have to ‘flee the state’ feeling like fugitives. They will not have to smuggle their baby’s remains back into Ireland or else leave them behind either to be buried abroad or cremated and delivered to them by courier. Families will be able to have their own funerals which will enable them to grieve normally with the open support of their families, friends and community.”
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They’ve already broken promises. This programme isn’t worth the paper its printed on. FF and FG have a track record of disregarding programmes and doing business as usual for the 1%.
@The Risen:
That’s actually laughable coming from a person who voted for Sinn Fein.
@Just Some Guy: I voted for PBPs Gino Kenny, but nice try (not)
@The Risen: shinnerbots are going into meltdown…you hate to see it ;)
@The Risen:
You certainly put me in my place. People Before Profit? The same party who organised protests when people couldn’t give their loved ones a proper burial because of COVID
@Just Some Guy: Just correcting you.
@The Risen: an honourable hard working man by all accounts. Lucky to get elected, if I remember correctly., after being caught in the SF up swing.
@The Risen:
You are very confused politically.
You supported a extremist right wing conspiracy theorist for President. You say you voted for an extreme left wing candidate in the General election, and you spend every waking minute advocating for Sinn Féin on the Journal. On top of that you have no idea how our democracy works.
It’s very hard to take you seriously.
@Feardorcha Ó Maolomhnaigh: whatever else about The Risen, the broad support for his comments on here indicate that a hell of a lot of people ‘take him seriously’.
You? Not so much.
@Diarmuid: that doesn’t say much about the people on here does it? His statements are total rubbish. And speaking as someone who voted for SF they do far more harm than good. They make SF voters out to the total muppets
@Just Some Guy: from a faceless account you’re the one that’s laughable
@Diarmuid: It is very funny how you and @We love Katamari: respond to defend the Risen. It’s just like you are a little team.
I wouldn’t put too much credence into the number of thumbs on his comments. A little team of posters can easily manipulate the thumbs up on any comment.
@Shazam37: Most of your posts involve insulting people. Now you’re insulting the ‘people on here’. Well done.
@Jim O Brien Tech: god.
You people.
@Shazam37: What’s childish is you calling everyone who you don’t agree with idiots and morons. This is a comments section, not your tree house.
@Shazam37: He posts no more nonsense that the rest of the Sinn Féin posters on here. You included. If the murder of 1800 people doesn’t damage a brand, then your, Dermot’s or the Risen’s comments aren’t going to make it any worse.
@The Risen: I see your pants are on fire there Risen! SF Bot#1
It’s time to play the music
It’s time to light the lights
It’s time to meet the Muppets on the Muppet Show tonight
It’s time to put on make up
It’s time to dress up right
It’s time to raise the curtain on the Muppet Show tonight……….
@Sinead Ni Coscraigh: So, reduce our options in relation to the import of liquid natural gas and so increase the cost of gas (quite clean compared to oil) and increase the import of oil. Makes no sense. While increasing dependency of imported gas from the Uk, using our uk gas inter-connector, under threat of tarriffs due to a pending hard brexit. hmmm.
@Sinead Ni Coscraigh: ladies and gentlemen I give you the Gruesome Threesome, staring Mehole Martian, Leonardo Veruka and Smiley face himself Amen Rie Anne
It’s ok. All promises will be broken by the end of this year.
@Madra: by the end of the week even!!
@Madra: yep they will blame it all on covid 19
@Madra: what’s this baby box for new parents?
@Madra: except any that involve taxing us more. Did they need the greens that much that they gave them so much? So much nonsense in this I’d consider voting SF next time just to end this nonsense. They should’ve held another GE.
We’ll have a crowd that only 7% voted for dictating what kind of house we get to live in, what kind of car you are allowed to drive and how much tax we have to pay for the privilege. There’s no doubt that the greens are serious bad news especially for anyone living in rural Ireland who wants to stay rural.
The only good that can come out of this is that they’ll fail so spectacularly they won’t be able to form a government next time between them even if they bring labour and the soc dems in
@Quiet Goer: Car tax in East Eu is 50 euro per year driving whatever you want eg. latvia etc. About 200mnl people in East Eu….so our tiny country…
@Damian Moylan: Citroen c5 in Ireland over 700 euro, same car in Spain 30 euro. It’s nothing to do with climate change or the environment it’s about revenue
@Damian Moylan: Ireland has one of the highest standard of living in the EU. The average wages in Ireland are over 4 times that of Latvia.
@Feardorcha Ó Maolomhnaigh: so what? We should have fraud taxes foisted on us by a party no one voted to make Kingmakers ? And worse, FG/FF went along with it ??
@Damian Moylan: You drive a car with low emissions you get low tax….its called carrot and stick approach.
@Feardorcha Ó Maolomhnaigh: tell that to all the homeless and the thousands waiting for life altering operations and the disabled
I’d have no problem if this was actually going to happen, the carbon tax increase is all that’s gonna happen :( smhhh
@Steven: Electric cars would work if we had nuclear power stations. Berlin using electrically powered buses for a long time already but Germany has a large number of coal fired power stations with carbon capture.
Not what People voted for. I’ve had it with FF,FG,LAB, and greens. We can’t wait 5 more years for housing and we can’t waste any more money on stupid Ill thought out and overpriced projects ie the children’s hospital. People voted for a left government to fix housing and overpriced rent as well as reduce cost of living. How are two parties filled with landlords going to fix housing? It’s a joke.
@Ciaran Burke: Jesus. SOME people voted for that. SOME people. Don’t you get how government actually works.
Christ. If you can’t grab this nuance YOU are the problem.
@Ciaran Burke: They have a majority of the seats in the Dail. What’s your point?
@Ciaran Burke: As a FG voter in last election, I’m really disappointed that they’ve chosen to sell out to the greens. Personally I’d prefer to have done a deal with SF as no matter how crazy their policies seem it ain’t nothing like the futility of the Green policies.
I expect FG and in particular FF to loose a significant amount of support in rural ireland as result of this.
@Shazam37: No I get, it SF is at fault for not running enough candidates. I personally am a centre left voter. I almost always vote left independent to get away from this my party made me vote this way nonsense. It’s very clear what was voted for, change. It’s not nuance it’s a slap in the face. Look I understand people vote for their own interests that’s fine but can we really take anymore of the same? I mean the children’s hospital really annoys me the sheer waste of money & the printer.
@Thomas O’Donnell: We both know this Frankenstein government has no real mandate & lost the popular vote. LV 5th count, MM 6th count and still has to go to Ardfheis for approval. Are you okay letting SF lead opposition into the next GE because if there is no change it’s probably a SF gov next time.
@Seamus Hughes: I agree as I said above I would be a left independent voter. The greens if they do this will shaft themselves. And rural people and farmers in particular do not like the green party because it’s bad for them economically. This will allow SF to tie FF and FG together and with labour no longer a threat it will allow SF and the SD to rise in the next election. I personally favorite coalition governments so there’s a check on the power. But, this combination it’s all wrong and Eamon Ryan in particular should know better after his last coalition with FF. I would not be in favour of Sinn Fein alone having power I feel there needs to be a check but their housing policy is popular something needs to be done on housing.
@Ciaran Burke: it’s not SF fault. Why should they run loads of candidates? They did poorly in the election before and terribly in the presidential election. They ran the candidates they thought appropriate based on the info that they had. They don’t have a crystal ball.
The nuance is that nearly 50% of the country voted FFFG, that’s inescapable fact. That it was a remarkable election that saw a further damaging result for the established two can’t be denied.
But it CANNOT be claimed that the majority of the country didn’t vote for this. They did. Wishing we won’t change it.
I voted for SF Soc dem green. I loath. LOATH. FFfG. The waste. The incompetence. The cronyism’s. The lack of accountability.
But that doesn’t change the simple fact that although more people than ever want change, that’s is NOT the same thing as saying a MAJORITY do.
@Shazam37: because everyone knew with the confidence and supply arrangement that people were looking for an alternative. I said before the election SF are shooting themselves in the foot not running more candidates. Also the fact RTE pushing SF out of the leaders debate also pushed the anti establishment sentiment and the scandals in government as well as nothing been done on housing were huge issues. The last election was on housing.
Some good proposals, as with any government expect at least 30% not to be done.
Given current situation the transport changes make total sense. We want to encourage more people to safely walk and cycle. More people doing that means less cars, less pollution and less traffic.
@Barry: yes the transport proposal look good. Long overdue. The cycle to work scheme should be extended to self employed and a version of it made available to retired people.
@Barry: Well that won’t work outside the m50.
@Damian Moylan: why is that? Those who live around 10km from where they work and where possible should be encouraged to cycle.
Be sold a pup, come to mind
Looks like an excellent programme. Great to have a gov in waiting with no sf involved. Phew!!
@Fionn Darland: get a life
@Fionn Darland: folks I’ve noticed this lad, is fishing & winding people up, don’t fall for it, a troll, just move on, don’t entertain him, if I say the sky is blue, this lad will disagree & say its red, ignore
@Fionn Darland: And you think all that will be implemented? You’re fierce optimistic altogether.
@Looney Tunes: of cours he is. Loser.
@Shazam37: I have a life but unfortunately 1800 in the North no longer do thanks to a certain organisation that is/was the second cheek of the same SF ass. I have no issue at all with legitimate left wing parties.
@Looney Tunes: So I gave a bit of a ribbing to Liverpool fans saying that their 2019/202 win will have an Asterix beside it. I am not a Pool fan – get over it – it was a bit of fun – do you have a sense of humour?
@ Badger: No harm in being ambitious! IF they implement the plan a lot of the issues that came up at the last election will have been addressed. Time will tell but only if the grassroots of all 3 parties approve of it!
It’s time to play the music
It’s time to light the lights
It’s time to meet the Muppets on the Muppet Show tonight
It’s time to put on make up
It’s time to dress up right
It’s time to raise the curtain on the Muppet Show tonight……
@Sinead Ni Coscraigh: I don’t accept that.
I must have missed the bit where they said they would reduce their salaries like New Zealand.
No change there so. Its as we were.
Words. Only words. We need actions.
If you’re reading this and thinking “great”… or looking forward to seeing this in action… then you are either thick or there is something wrong with you. Have people not learned from the last few years under FG?? Have people not learned from what happened last time FF had the reigns? And now, somehow, together it’ll be grand?? This will be a clusterf##k of a s##tshow of epic proportions.
Lots of nice aspirations but very few specifics in the key areas of housing, health and dealing with the insurance problem.
It seems generally like a continuation of the last government but with some concessions on carbon tax, drug policy and transport to the greens. Have FF had any impact on this at all?
Seems you don’t have to get in on the first or second count, or even the sixth count , and can still run the country.
They couldn’t run a car never mind a country.
Any plan not to pump runny sh!te into the sea
Should have made it illegal to remove hedges and trees and to destroy rivers with proper enforcement- hopeless at the moment.
Least they havent taxed vaseline……cos we will need it when these cabbages and their ilk start taxing and charging us to the limit
I totally hate the Green Party I wish they would get a big grip on what they are saying . Will they pay each household for their changes I bet not so we wont follow them either ?
I just wasted 7 and a half minutes reading that load of donkey dung every word is lies. I wish we could trust the people involved but alas they have proven themselves to be untrustable. Batten down the hatches and prepare to be buggered by FFFGGP.
2050 is too late for the planet. Next 10 years are crucial. Flip we are screwed.
@Lucy Legacy: you mean were screwed if we let this ‘programme’ comes to happen.
Transport greens would love us to go back to the oul horse and cart what a backward shower of prats
They have no money but borrow to pay for contraception is lunacy.
Not using fractured gas but supporting oppressive regimes in the middle east by buying their oil and gas seems to me like a bad idea.
Plan loaded with regressive carbon taxes to subidise Telsas for green supporters with carbon tax on pensioners coal. Amazing what you can do when media, all politicians and scientific organisations refuse to examine the Data supporting the climate change scam.
have your say