Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
Updated 11.55am
HEALTH MINISTER LEO Varadkar says the government will again oppose a proposal to legislate for abortion in cases of fatal foetal abnormality.
Speaking in the Dáil today, Varadkar also said the coalition had no mandate to hold a referendum to repeal the 8th Amendment which he has previously described as “too restrictive”.
However, he said that he would be advocating that Fine Gael campaign for a referendum in the next election, and said it’s a matter that should be dealt with in the next Dáil.
Independent TD Mick Wallace dismissed the view that the current government has no mandate as “horseshit” and argued that the government had no mandate to pay bondholders, but did it anyway.
Their comments came during a debate on United Left TD Clare Daly’s bill that would provide for abortions in circumstances where an unborn child has no prospect of life outside the womb, known as fatal foetal abnormality.
This is the latest attempt by Daly to legislate for such situations but the government, as in previous debates, said it would oppose the measure on the Attorney General’s advice was that it is unconstitutional. A vote will be held on Tuesday.
The bill would provide for two suitably qualified medical professionals (an obstetrician and a perinatologist) to jointly certify in good faith that the foetus in question is suffering from a fatal foetal abnormality.
Proponents of it have argued it does not confer any new rights in relation to abortion, merely clarifies existing rights and, they argue, it is constitutional.
Introducing her bill today, Daly said that current law makes situations for parents whose baby has no prospect of survival “barbaric” and likened it to torture.
“Grief and loss can be dealt with, but the anger of being let down by your country is another matter,” Daly told the Dáil.
In his speech rejecting the bill, Varadkar summarised the views he gave in a landmark speech last December where he said the 8th Amendment was too restrictive.
However he said that the current government has no electoral mandate to hold a referendum to repeal the amendment which guarantees the equal right to life of the unborn.
He said the amendment as it stands “forces mothers and their partner to bring to term a child that has no chance of survival outside the womb for long.
“This is exactly the type of clinical scenario that Deputy Daly’s bill aims to address, and, therefore, I commend her intentions. However, just like last December, I cannot support this legislative proposal. This is simply because this Bill is unconstitutional.”
He later said in response to other deputies’ contributions that Daly’s bill was “flawed legislation”. He said that there are many conditions where it’s not clear if survival is possible outside the womb.
Varadkar said there is no consensus on what a new amendment would consist of and added that while the bill was “well-meaning” but he could not support it.
Independent TD Catherine Murphy said that the “barbarism” of Irish abortion laws damages the country’s reputation internationally.
Fianna Fáil TD Billy Kelleher said his party would have a free vote on the bill. He called on the government to “brave and bold” in relation to it.
The Cork North-Central deputy recalled a case of a couple whose baby had no prospect of survival. He said that they felt “so demeaned in having to go to England”.
Sinn Féin’s Brian Stanley said the party could not support the bill and would be abstaining on the vote as the issue had not been considered by its Ard Fheis.
Fine Gael TD for Dublin South Central, Catherine Byrne, said: ”If ever there was legislation I’d like to support, it is this one.”
She was one of a number of Fine Gael TDs who spoke in support of the spirit of Daly’s bill, but all insisted that it was unconstitutional, including Dublin South’s Olivia Mitchell:
People Before Profit TD Richard Boyd-Barrett recounted his own personal experience of his daughter Ella, who had a fatal foetal abnormality.
She said she would have been 13 this year and was “a daughter we desperately wanted”.
“You cannot protect a life when you are talking about a condition that is incompatible with life,” the Dún Laoghaire TD told the Dáil.
Only one Labour TD spoke on the bill. Joanna Tuffy said she believed it was unconstitutional and said that a referendum after the next election was the best way of pursuing the issue.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
How anyone can disagree with Claire Daly in this regard baffles me. Insisting any woman delivers a dead baby is outrageous.
And that is exactly the governments position. They would rather women and families go through this torture abroad or at full term rather than let Claire Daly pass a bill. Absolutely sickening watching the excuses in the dail.
What are the motives for not wanting this urgent amendment? Why would anyone want to prolong the suffering? What sort of twisted mind could have a problem with Clare Daly’s bill? Excuses don’t wash anymore in relation to this issue and sitting on the fence is not good enough and shows a lack of leadership and direction
@Paul, read on down the comments and see the FG troll remarks. They say enough.
@paul and compassion. Sick, cold hearted politics comes before the unfortunate, long suffering lay people for fine Gael. My best friend went through this, and let me tell you, it was horrific, and she’s still dealing with the mental health consequences. Thanks god she has a fantastic husband and family or I don’t know how she would have gotten through it.
Best of luck to her @ Amy
Paul, suffering, suffering and more suffering. That is what fundamentalist Catholics love above all else. They really get off on it. I swear, I can almost smell the incense and the burning flesh when I read some of the contributions from these people. You know what I mean; the folk who in the distant past would ‘tear your flesh with hot pincers’ for the good of your soul, of course. As II have previously mentioned on this forum, I am 63 years old (yeah, the despised ‘grey vote’) and during my entire life these injustices have been allowed to continue, for no good reason other than politician’s fear of losing their seats in the event of their supporting progressive legislation. Thus, a small proportion of the population hold sway of the majority of reasonable people. Before people say, well you lot voted for this, let me say I voted against the 8th. amendment TWICE, but I am only one person and can only do so much. In the name of the God I don’t believe in – let something be done NOW about this situation. As for Leo…..you have just blown any shred of credibility you had managed to gather by coming out with this nonsense statement. As a Doctor and as a human being you know what has to be done. Do something to convince your cowardly backwoodsman colleagues or forfeit the right to speak on such matters in the future.
Welcome to Ireland. Please set your watches back to 1955.
Sadly the six fingered mucksavages otherwise known as “rural Ireland” (that must be “saved” from God knows what,) beholden to traditional Irish catholic church values will have their say. The lily livered, catholic educated political morons ~(TD’s) whose almost literal grandfathers – politics is hereditary in this country – (sons follow fathers dead men’s shoes style in this corrupt democracy) were so afraid of the catholic church that they had to hide around the corner of a nearby building at the funeral of our first president in case they were seen inside a protestant church sharing condolences with the family of a gaelic hero – cannot do other than follow their genetic neanderthal mental inheritance. Forget it, no change, no hope of change as long as our politicians are afraid of upsetting the most heavily subsidized rural vote in Europe….oh by the way its you paying for that.
The suffering is the food for the sadistic psychopaths.
Ah yes nothing like a bit of the old suffering and as St Augustine said suffering is good for the less evolved souls of women. Suffering brings the women closer to the invisible man in the sky.
This is where George Carlin comes in to enlighten us all.
Paul Lane…they are afrsid of the Catholic Church
If the government can’t change this shameful legislation, who on earth can?
Have a referendum and get the mandate. These women must not be tortured anymore, not in my name.
I’m actually very surprised Leo has no man date.
Ha Ha Ha
Ha ha…comment of the day, Jason !
Mick Wallace finally realises what that smell is in the Dail all these years
Cian sometimes it might be an idea to stop being a tribal moron.
Cian,
“Scruffy git”, “Face like a bag of hammers”.
Anything relevant to say on the legislation proposed, or are you just going to insult the appearance of Wallace and Daly?
No, I have absolutely no interest in wading into this quagmire of a debate as it’s as good as banging your head against the wall around here. I just came on to insult Daly & Wallace, two utterly contemptible individuals.
Good day lads.
At least your honest!
Cian Doherty ” I just came on to insult Daly & Wallace, two utterly contemptible individuals. ”
How and why are they that exactly ????
Martin, simple they are not members of FG.
That smell of horsesh** is mostly coming from himself ;-)
Can those two deputies are a more useful than all your Blueshirt mates put together.
The Fine Gael party is a pimple on the ars* of society…..
Well, Mick Wallace is a tax cheat, after all. That’s not to say I disagree with his stance on this but, yeah, I would say he’s somewhat contemptible in that regard.
Claire Daly I have no issue with as such; I can think of no rational argument against her proposal, I mean, a situation wherby a woman is forced to deliver a dead baby is sick.
I disagree with Cian here, the ball should be played on this issue, not the man or woman in question. However I just said I’d point out Wallace’ dodgy tax affairs as to why someone might consider him somewhat contemptible.
But how can a member / supporter of Fine Gael complain about a ” Tax Cheat ” When their own Party was found to have being defrauding the revenue department for 9 years before being caught. Does VinHeffer and Cian also think of Fine Gael and its members as contemptible given their own standards. Or is it just the media have kept very very quite about Fine Gaels criminal activities.???
Obviously, Martin, I believe that there are some members of Fine Gael, past and present, that are beyond and beneath contempt. Allow me to provide you with a few;
Michael Lowry, proven corrupt by the Moriarty Tribunal and yet still tops the polls in North Tipp. James Reilly, who closed public nursing homes while he has interests in several private nursing homes which is a direct conflict of interest. Michael Noonan, Bilderberg member and current Minister for Finance need I say any more? Well, he did pursue a dying woman to her grave for legal fees, so yeah, a charming individual. John Bruton, former Taoiseach and spokesman/apologist for banks, hiding behind his religion in relation to this claiming that it isn’t Christian to hold grudges against banks and critic of the 1916 Rising in spite of the massive pension he gets as a former politician, a position he would never have held was it not for the actions of those men. Michelle Mulherin and her boyfriend and their phone expenses caper, I’ll say no more. Fidelma Healy-Eames, possessor of possibly the biggest sense of entitlement among any politicians who was NEVER elected. I could go on, Martin, in fact I could do Fianna Fail and Labour next if you like.
To be honest man, I’m not too happy with your assumption that I’m a Fine Gael man because I’m willing to call Mick Wallace on his dodgy tax background. Does everyone who goes against your point of view fit into the traitor category?
Copy and paste where in my comment I said you were a Fine Gael supporter??? I have read your posts on many topics I already know your politics. I’m not too happy with your assumption that I was implying that either. Its obvious from my comment that I was asking you and Cians opinion on Fine Gael as tax cheats and how do you know what my point of view is I haven’t offered it, merely posed a question. I am not an apologist of Mick Wallace either He is a tax cheat I was pointing out an individual in a glass houses flinging rocks. Its Cians reply I am waiting on.
But if you know my politics you’ll obviously know my opinion on that. Much of the mainstream media is owned by members of that political party, and RTE has a vested interest in promoting the policies of the government of the day. Obviously their corruption will be kept on a tighter lease and swept under the carpet more often than an Independent.
You’ll be waiting for Cian’s response on the subject, I’d say. By his own admission he only came here to mock Daly and Wallace on something so superficial as physical appearance so I can’t see him responding to a question with a bit of substance to it.
I’ll apologise for assuming you were assuming that I’m a Fine Gael supporter but my views on Mick Wallace are unshakeable; I won’t be lectured on any aspect of propriety by a tax cheat who left suppliers and employees alike in the lurch, any more than I would tolerate the like of Michael Lowry doing the same.
Sorry, don’t you mean the ar** of the catholic church in bleshirt mode – Heil Franco and all that.
Just get on with it and Repeal the 8th.
From a legal perspective, repealing the 8th opens the way to putting a sensible legal regime in place.
This law would be constitutional and would not require the 8th to be repealed… If this is true then Clare Daly has essentially asked Leo to put action to his words from earlier when he claimed that our abortion laws are too stringent!
How do you know it would be constitutional? Just because those lobbying for its introduction claim that it would be constitutional doesn’t make it so. I agree with the legislation personally, but I wouldn’t be too confident that the SC would pass it due to the 8th. Like you, I’m only guessing though, but it would ultimately come down to a decision by the highest courts in the land, not the legal advice of lobby groups or government.
We can, and should, enact this with the 8th still in place. “As far as practicable” gives up a considerable amount of wriggle room.
When you add the governments argument in D vs Ireland to the ruling on the case over Xmas, the notion that the “unborn” is not capable of actually *living* sort of negates the constitutional requirement to “defend” it’s right to life, because that right is not practicable.
These would, I presume, be the reasons the bill was seen as likely in keeping with the Constitution.
As usual, shame on labours cowardice and hypocrisy on this issue. Aodhan O Riordain having the gall to attend a repeal the 8th rally and then abstain from the vote on the bill to actually repeal the 8th, and now labour speaking about how they can’t support this bill because of the constitution, having only two months ago shut down a bill that would have allowed that very referendum to take place.
Sinn Fein announcing they will oppose the bill also. New face of the left? I think not. Terrified to take a stance on anything that requires a measure of principles until they’re forced into a corner.
^ +1, well put
So so heartening to see so many male contributors agreeing to the repealing this amendment.I know men suffer just as much when their wife has to travel to England to have a termination because they are carrying a baby that has no chance of survival outside the womb(1st hand experience). All the same I dont think that even 10 years ago men would have been so sympathetic or well informed. As I said so heartening!
There is no Labour party in this country. The rot started when Emmett Stagg said he would support the Meath hunting gentry in their bid to stop legislation controlling game hunting and thus necessarily promote risk of death to ordinary taxpayers caused by terrified deer chased by bucolic rural morons on horses chasing the deer into fast moving traffic on suburban roads. F.U. very much Deputy Stagg.
Now of course the “suck up to neo liberals game” has moved on. Labour Party Minister Alan (bovver boy) Kelly is happy to tell the 10 to 15 thousand families that will be made homeless this year that there will be a solution to their problems (funding yet to be found) by providing houses being built between now and 2020. Meanwhile the victims of government sponsored financial fraud in the “Tiger” years now made homeless can expect to sleep on relatives sofas or have their children live 6 to a hotel room for the next five years…..Socialism turned to fascism with a friendly face by a party hungry for power.
Liars, cheaters chancers and cowards, fine gael 2015.
Or in other words, politicians.
Yet again tho government lets its people down , Varadkar should be ashamed , disgrace
Agreed, as a strongly ProLife person and as someone who views FG as the best of a bad lot, Varadkar is going down bad on this one. He could swallow his pride and pave the way for this amendment to be passed. Their legislation last year was more damaging to human-life in the womb than this motion… so why the refusal to go forth?
So disappointed at Leo’s response. If this is not passed what are they going to do.
They have to do something it can’t continue. 3 years we are fighting this and who knows how long more we have to endure the suffering.
Cowards they are. Just think of the families that will be put through this horrific trauma over the next week/months etc. so upsetting.
Well said.
You don’t get it do you? They are all afraid of rural ireland – a place somewhere back in the 19th century to which all modern politicians must genuflect and probably cross themselves….
I’ve read two of your comments and I can only hope that you are a troll, because if you are not then your ignorance can only be surpassed by your incredible stupidity. And you haven’t the balls to use your proper name.
Its a lame excuse.
There are many bills passed through a parliament that aren’t part on a manifesto or programme for government.
You deal with the issue as they arise, in the way you think was best.
That it wasn’t in the FG manifesto 5years ago is moot.
A family home tax wasn’t in FG’s manifesto didn’t stop them bringing one in though.
As Mick says “horsesh!t”.
RBB talking about his personal experience with FFA was extremely moving and stark. How the hell in 2015 are we still asking women to travel abroad when their foetus has a condition which is incompatible with life.
Truly, if we are to be judged by our ruling class, we are a nation of savages.
Ah YFG supporters classy as ever.
He has no ManDate, but he has a private Debt collection agency working for him in the event that the family of a sick child owes the HSE some money. Gangster.
One day maybe when we finally get to the other-side we will all wonder what the fuss was all about. We have the technology and the compassion to understand where action should be for the common good. Its tust that we are hung up once more on the narcissism of small differences. There was a time people had to suffer the tragic passing of an infant who through a twist of nature suffered the most cruelest of existences. That’s what we should be say today, as we have an opportunities to elevate people of that unwonted experience. Again, its about choice, not judgement calls. If this does not follow your belief system, then you have the option to flow your own heart. But who are we to exercise that choice for others.
“Again, its about choice, not judgement calls. If this does not follow your belief system, then you have the option to flow your own heart. But who are we to exercise that choice for others.”
Exactly, Martin. This legislation is always about choice.
If a woman finds herself in this horrific position, and she wants to carry full term, she will still be allowed and it won’t be forced upon her.
But for women who currently find themselves in this position and she does not want to carry to full term, she is either forced to travel or carry. She has no choice here.
Playing politics and kicking the can down the road. Shower of spineless, heartless barstools. Allowing women to deliver early in this country because their child won’t survive outside the womb is not the mythical “slippery slope”. It’s compassionate, sparing parents and families additional grief and a baby from pain. Not to mention the costs, both financial and emotional, of having to go abroad to do it.
It won’t mean forcing women into earlier delivery if they don’t want to either. If a woman wants to carry her child with a FFA to term, her wishes will still be respected and supported.
The choice to do otherwise in this country, rather than exporting it should be permitted in the lifetime of this government. Do something decent, for once.
well put
Yep,looks like yfg are scraping the barrel of human evolution again.
Still though,I suppose it takes all kinds to spout the official party line and views.
@Cian, at least she is capable of rattling the gates of gangsters paradise ( the dail ). Kenny et al are spineless, populist morons, incapable of doing anything right unless there is a vote involved.
FG should just tell the truth that they don’t want another internally division issue on the table in the run up to the election
This government are no longer fit for purpose…how can an elected minister tell the voting public, that he doesn’t have a mandate for such a sensitive and important issue that is affecting so many people’s lives on a daily basis?!! Surely the citizens decide if there is a mandate or not, not this over paid, out of touch, bunch of idiots….who have lied and covered up just as much if not more than FF before them….it’s time to change!!
you heard it first from Leo’s mouth “we’ve no mandate”
Where did they get the mandate to say no to a debt conference? which they had no problem on doing but all of a sudden they are accountable because of lack of mandate.
“This is the latest attempt by Daly to legislate for such situations but the government, as in previous debates, said it would oppose the measure on the Attorney General’s advice was that it is unconstitutional.”
Wouldn’t it be nice to see a record of this advice?
Wouldn’t it be even nicer if the AG gave recommendations as to any changes in the proposed legislation to make it constitutional. We pay these people enough, they should be able to work it out!
Can not wait for the next election.
Anything relevant to post regarding the article or is stupid insult the summation of your intellect?
Sorry but the “we don’t have a mandate/we’re worried about the constitutionality” is just a pathetic excuse.
Fine Gael and Labour have had ample time to consider this issue properly and they’ve avoided it at every single possible turn.
Like the cowards in Labour – They are all afraid of rural ireland .
We heard you the first time
Mr Doherty
Can you provide a photo of your female family members ? Thank you!
Good man, Mick!
Ho Lee Fuk….your name says it all – spineless moron.
You calling people from Rural Ireland “six fingered muck savages” -you spineless moronic troll
Why cant Sinn Fein make a decision on this bill?
Ulsssssster saaaays Naaay….you see even our radicals are conservative neanderthals….eh Mary Lou??
What’s he on about ,mandate,you broke every promise and more therefore you lost your mandate,just go away
One day Cian you may have children and for them I hope your caring side has more depth.
Leo
Gay rights…ok
Woman’s rights……no
Some things never change
How many people lying on hospital trollies today Varadkar ??
What exactly CAN you do other than increase the price of a can of cheap beer ????
I can declare I am gay…..wait A minute I have already done that…..quick any suggestions for victim status……
Good man Cian, opening your mouth to change feet again
One call always rely on mick Wallace to be truly professional and classy
Sometimes nice words don’t fit.
And on the government to be two faced
He called it like it is….anyway there’s a Irish/Canadian cultural precedent. In the 1980′s Canadian comedy character who urged her elderly partner eating a burger to desist, saying, “don’t eat it elmer, it’s horse**it ” – which I found funny at the time….a phrase that was taken up by many of my then fellow countrymen and women to apply to any number of rip off situations…no shame in Mick Wallace’s language if he was telling the truth – and he was today!
I think a referendum on outright abortion is needed, to settle the issue one way or another, once and for all. We have the strictest abortion laws in the developed world (as a matter of fact, not opinion) and it is a relic of a conservative, staunchly catholic DeValeria era.
Let the people decide. The time has come and long gone since this was necessary.
Murder inc
An exhibition of the fundamentalist mind set which is at the root of the problem.
Exhibit B: Gary Gary, above.
Chris, when talking about Gary’s comments it’s safe to just say below, since that’s where his comments tend to end up.
I’d rather see this legislation passed in accordance with the 8th still in place. Working with the 8th still in place is the best way forward so that we can enact sensible clauses while keeping the door firmly shut on abortion-on-request.
In addition to the above… I don’t like Leo’s approach to this one bit. This law would be respected by alot of people including vast swathes of the Pro-Life side. It wouldn’t pi$$ off voters the same way the last shambolic law did last year.
@ Anthony Lang – I think you’re on to something there and I think it’s something with affects “both sides” of the debate.
I think we need to leave the whole “abortion on demand” thing out of the debate (which is something used by many to delegitimize Daly’s input on this issue) on one side and the religious/conservative objection to all forms of abortion on the other and actually have an adult debate on the real issue at hand – which is the option of parents ending the life of unborn children who have little or no chance of living once born.
It was heartbreaking reading an article here the other day of couples having to travel to the UK to terminate pregnancies of children with fetal abnormalities, utterly heartbreaking. Similarly this morning with Richard Boyd-Barrett’s comments on his experiences.
Whatever about the issue of abortion on demand and one’s moral, religious or political opinions on that the idea that we can’t legislate, and legislate carefully, to address situations like that doesn’t reflect well on Ireland’s politicians, or it’s people.
Hey, Lone Hurler, why don’t you tell us all about the time you gave birth to a child with a fatal foetal abnormality and what a great experience it was?
We’re all ears.
I have given details before on here which the regular contributors to these articles well know. Have a bit of a search if you’re interested 50.
Never mind dat why does Mick Wallis dress in the Dail like he’s canvassing his next job after 1916…being on the dole.
Someone should inform Leo that the Coalition that he is a part of lost there mandate when they forgot what they said to the electorate while there were campaigning before the electon in 2011. Women who are pregnant and know they are carrying a child that has died after 4 or 5 months of conception should not have to endure the full 9 months of pregnancy when it will come to nothing but heat ache and pain. No Government minister has the God given rite to say any different. Then the Government does not give a shite about the rites of a woma,no matter what they try and tell us.
Ultimately as Edward carson said “home rule is Rome Rule” – even 102 years later…..
This government is an absolute disgrace.
We get a referendum on what age the president should be (who cares) but we don’t get a vote on the medieval practice of forcing Irish women to give birth to dead babies
Stupid bloody constitution – the preamble is ridiculous. Get rid of this god nonsense. Show some humanity towards couples going through FFA and the like.
Legislate conscientiously and compassionately without god botherers interfering.
Where is your mandate for minimum drink pricing ?
so if you read in-between the lines of Leo’s comments FG doesn’t want to pass any legislation or have a referendum on abortion because they think it could hurt them either way in the next general election. They care more about getting reelected than the suffering of the people of Ireland, which has been obvious on more than one occasion during this government through various situations.
Fine Geal:
Ideology Christian democracy[2][3][4]
Liberal conservatism[3]
Social conservatism[5][6]
Pro-Europeanism
First word says it all!
Looking out not to upset their voting pool.
I would have thought that you wouldn’t need a mandate to ask a question of the electorate.
You know Gerry Adams should use that quote that Leo just said but cut it short like what they did to him with his “I’m not good at maths but”
The new phase will read “We’ve no mandate”
I blame the institution of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland which, back in 1983, when it ruled the majority of the voters and the politician foisted an anti woman constitutional amendment on the people.
This Constitutional Amendment, the 8th Amendment, the wretched Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution, has actually cost the lives of women in Ireland.
Ideology and religious dogma prevailed over humanitarianism. Zealots have left us a dreadful legacy.
I just tried to comment about the headline and how it may breach the Journal.ie strict code on expletives and or abusive language and I got a prompt telling me I’m in breach!!!? What the feck??!!
In moments like this I wish to live in Switzerland, why can’t we have the same democracy as they have? If they collect 100K valid signatures within 18 months the government have no choice but to call for a referendum regardless of the signature’s request. On paper they could call for a referendum for the craziest things as long as 100K signatures are collected.
We coud be on a whole different field if we would be able to decide ourselves for a referendum on the 8th, and another on the banking guarantee.
The irish people should Help with child murder just because the “liberals” have turned into their hobby horse.
These are the same people who want to destroy the family with the gay marriage referendum
Nature is what kills these foetuses, preventing them from ever having a chance to become children. We can do something to lessen the suffering of their mothers and families and it behoves any decent society to give families these options. As regards the constant use of the word ‘murder’ by the pro-lifers, I am so sick of hearing this fallacious comparison. Abortion is not considered to be equal to ‘murder’ in any country in the world. Ergo, the human race has quite obviously decided en masse that it is not murder but something different and more nuanced. Using the word does not make it so. I can call an apple an orange as much as I like but they’re not the same thing. But somehow the Irish pro-life brigade think they have it sussed and the rest of the human population of the planet are wrong, misguided and morally inferior. It’s time to stand up against this and rescue our country from this backward, dangerous thinking.
Mr Gary Gary
How do you feel about educate together schools?Thank you!
Don’t waste your time with Gary. He has loads of accounts and is a blatant troll.
This is more than abortion Gary Gary… just beware of those calling for the repeal of the 8th – they are the ones with an agenda in mind. Those that support this motion are equally opposed to abortion on demand but allow the common sense of this to pass
Repealing the 8th Amendment is the only means of achieving legal clarity.
We have to be rid of Article 40. 3.3 once and for all.
Now they’re worried about having no mandate?
Well said by Minister Varadkar.
Clare Daily Daly calling a law that does *not* allow for the ending of unborn life “barbaric” is the height of irony.
It’s more barbaric that we ship Irish women abroad to deal with this tragic circumstances, instead of taking care of our own citizens at home.
But we don’t. Nobody is “shipping” anyone anywhere.
Instead certain women decide to travel to a different jurisdiction to abort their babies.
That is not an acceptable reason to allow it here.
We may not be literally shipping them over, but it’s still barbaric to export this problem then deal with it in our own country. We are forcing women to carry a foetus that is incompatible with life, or forcing them to go abroad. Those are the only two options for people in this situation, and it is barbaric.
No it’s not. It’s how different countries & jurisdictions work.
Ireland is a sovereign state and should not be forced to adjust its legislation simply because neighbouring sovereign states have different laws.
Evert, we already adjusted our laws for this subject and made it constitutional in the 90s with the 13th amendment to allow women to travel for abortion. Basically, exporting the problem.
Wrong: the 13th amendment means that nobody can be stopped from travelling.
*For any reason*
Completely different nuance.
Quoting from the actual amendment: “This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.”
No mention at all of abortion and rightly so.
You’re wrong. It may not mention abortion, but it was direcly related to travelling for abortions.
‘This subsection’ refers to the 8th amendment, so it is saying “[The right to life of the unborn shall not limit] freedom to travel between Ireland and another state.”
14th amendment was also passed relating to access to information on abortion abroad.
Right of information:
“Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution Act, 1992 [Provided that Article 40.3.3° (the right to life of the unborn) would not limit freedom to obtain or make available information relating to services lawfully available in another state.]”
Yes, so people are allowed their democratic right to travel and access to information.
How does that support your statement that we’re “exporting the problem”?
Should we not allow these women to travel? Or should we prosecute them is they return from having an abortion abroad?
You utterly fail to understand the basics of jurisdictions and sovereign states.
You stated “[Ireland] should not be forced to adjust its legislation simply because neighbouring sovereign states have different laws.” This is what the 13th amendment was for! We already changed our constitution for this.
We are exporting the problem, because we specifically allow women to travel outside our country to access abortion. And yet, we cannot have it happen on Irish soil. Oh no, can’t have that. It is hypocritical. Irish women need access to abortion, especially in the case of FFA, in their own state.
Discuss carrying a foetus to full term only to be born dead. Justify it. Justify why you agree its acceptable for a woman (and her partner) to have to suffer this utterly horrific situation?
Susan, I am not advocating making anyone carry an already dead foetus to full term.
What I am advocating against is allowing the lives of unborn children to be terminated because they have a fatal foetal abnormality.
Just let nature run it’s course.
I said justify it. \why let nature run its course when it causes undue suffering?
Ireland is not an independent country, its a vassel state of a tax haven masquerading as a religiously orderd state – the vatican.
Don’t you just love the weasel wording going on there..
The 13th and 14th amendments were added to article 40.3.3 and so are directly related to abortion. They were voted on the same day we were asked to overrule the Supreme courts decision that the risk of suicide represented a valid threat to the woman’s life to warrant an abortion..
It was as close as Ireland has been given a chance to vote for abortion to be permitted in this country. No one could claim that they were misled into voting these amendments into the Constitution under the impression Evert attempts to give above. The percentages were consistent with those who voted against the 12th amendment.
Everyone who voted in the 13th and 14th knew exactly what they were voting for. To allow women have abortions in the only way we could.
And this is about fatal foetal abnormalities, the primary method of abortion for which is BIRTH. as in, induced labour. These women give birth, just a bit earlier, and then have to await their child’s ashes by post because we don’t afford them the dignity in their home country.
To be fair, Leo needs a man date.
Lads would you ever go away and read some of the comments under any article involving Lucinda Creighton, Joan Burton, Mary Harney or even Maggie Thatcher and then get off your high horses!
YFG are you mad?
Fine Gael have lost their way!
Sad!
Fine Gael only act for minorities!
They have forgotten the majority!
Fine Gael has abandoned all its Christian principles!
Sad! Very sad!
its fantastic that the public are wising up to the idiots in opposition
Personally I’m against it. I fully understand that it is a tragic situation, but it is still the taking of a life. Article 40.3.3 mightn’t be perfect – but the situation regarding abortion in Ireland is one hell of a lot better than that that they have in England.
For that reason, I’m against either tampering with it or repealing it.
….a life that will die at or soon after birth. Why would you think that its acceptable to put someone through that?
Susan, and that is the core of the issue. The cruelty towards the woman and for no good purpose. It’s so inhumane to compell a pregnant woman to go full term in such cases. It’s unbelievably inhumane.
have your say