Bit early for you anti US turnips to be out ?

Matt — The US are analogous to the school yard bully, not an innocent passer by.

From a foreign policy point of view its hard to disagree with you Petr, but the US hasn’t opened fire on unarmed peaceful protesters like Assad’s forces did in the early stages of this conflict (at least not since the 1960′s).

To paraphrase, all it takes for brutality to triumph is for good people to look away. Yes, it could be argued that this could equally be applied to the US, but that just serves to reinforce my original point that turning a blind eye is not a solution.

If the US or Israel did half the things Assad has done you and others would be screaming for action, not saying that the international community should “mind its own business”…

Mattoid, using Isreal as ab example there isn’t a good idea. They pretty do as much as they please in Gaza. Take for example IF(hypothetically speaking), a civil war broke out in the United States. Do you think they’d want Russia or China intervening, flying over there, landing troops, adding fuel to the fire,taking out military targets etc.. Id doubt it.

Mattoid, are you aware of the number of Syrian policemen and women killed by “peaceful protesters” in Syrian cities during 2011?

David – the fact that Israel inflicts so much suffering on innocent civilians without sanction reinforces my view that it is wrong for the international community to stand idly by and turn a blind eye to flagrant injustices, wherever they occur.

And yes, in your hypothetical situation, if the US military was targeting innocent civilians in a civil war at home I would hope that Russia or China would seek to take action to reduce their capacity to do it.

Ok, so without answering my question, you’re saying: If foreign armed groups infiltrate a country, kill a load of policemen, then the West should intervene and take down the government? What a load of nonsense, really.

You’re missing (probably willingly) the point. Israel literally gets away with murder and more, while the effort for regime change is on the double. In saying that, with the amount of abstentions at the recent UN resolution on Syria, the international community isn’t singing off the same hymn sheet.

@David Byrne
My reply was to David Newman, not to you but to answer your question, no that is not what I said, but if any country, no matter who they are, started targeting their own civilian population with heavy weaponry I would hope that the International community would try and make some kind of meaningful intervention to stop it, whether that consists of negotiation, sanctions, or as a last resort military action.

And just because Israel has got away with murder, does that make it OK for Assad to get away with murder too?

The fact that you consistently claim the Syrian military (which is central part of Syrian society) targets it’s own civilian population with “heavy weaponry” shows that your overview and outlook on this conflict is missing some huge contextually important facts.

Matt: “To paraphrase, all it takes for brutality to triumph is for good people to look away.”

@David Byrne
Are you denying that Assad has targeted densely populated civilian areas with air power, tank shells and other heavy weaponry??

@Petr
I’m certainly not saying that either side has the moral high ground in this conflict – as you rightly point out elsewhere in this thread there is a huge geopolitical battle going on here between the large nations, who are all looking after their own interests while the Syrian people suffer.
The point I’m making is that massacres and brutality of any origin cannot be ignored by looking the other way and singing la la la….

@ Gary : But Gary, it is minding its own business, trying to control the flow of oil and gas in the world, regardless of the human cost. Normal hard working American people rarely see the benefits of this though. It goes to an elite few.

Oh give over mattoid you’d be the very one to come on here and defend Israel for firing willie Pete into the Gaza Strip, in fact if we check articles dated back I’m sure we’d find exactly that,..see the hypocrisy

Please do Golden, and let me know if you find anything. I’m certainly not blindly pro-israel as you seem to think – far from it.

Last week I said that it is understandable (even if not completely justifiable) that Israel would want to destroy any weapons it believed were soon to be used against it and I stand by that – I would hope my government might do the same if I was in their position (by the way, in the absence of any evidence either way I’m keeping an open mind on whether or not the destroyed weapons were being shipped to Hezbollah or not).

Far from it Adam I think Assad should be gone as well he’s guilty of atrocities too not as many as Obama is mind but at the moment he’s by far the lesser of two evils, the US has destroyed many countries in the region for what exactly?

& what have you contributed Josh? Few snide remarks ye numpty good man

Golden your really a tosser :) if your so anti usa boycott everything American. Sooo lets see you can start off with your pc or mac. Made by imperial Devils stop using it. You also will have the added benefit of peace and wuite and not subjecting people to BS :)

Will he be a man of principle and stop using American tech? One way to find out. ..

That makes sense… boycott virtually everything in life because you disagree with American foreign policy. What difference would that stupid and counterproductive lifestyle change make?

I wouldnt even dream of it Guardian makes no sense at all, sure I dont agree with a Tyrannical Government but what good would startin a boycott of American goods do? Put honest decent Americans jobs and livelihoods at risk….shoulda really thought about that one first shouldnt ya

Hard to disagree with your overall assessment David, but what makes you think the two Syrian guys you train with are representative of the entire Syrian population?

I don’t think the innocent civilians murdered by Assad’s bullets for nothing more than protesting against his rule would see him as a ‘good guy’!

The bottom line is that the Syrian people have never had the opportunity to express their opinion at the ballot box.

Mattoid, it’s astounding that you’d question the opinion of two Syrian’s, who I presume live in Ireland, yet you put all faith into this notion that the whole of Syria want’s the Syrian government to fall. Probably a dozen or so times, your analysis of the origins of the conflict and emotional blackmail has been successfully exposed for what it is.

From what statistical research are you basing your faithful notion that Syrian people want rid of it’s own government?

Good point, theyre but two opinions out of many millions. But, even Sky reporter Tim Marshal came under sniper fire from rebel fighters this week as he did a report on people out in the streets in support of Assad. They were by the so called freedom fighters they would be shot if they did, and some were. My point is that the country will be more destablised with these rebel groups coming in trying to get control,and implimenting shiriah law.

*they were told by the so called freedom fighters

David, you said at least four groups would be fighting for control in the case of a Syrian government downfall. There are, in fact, over one thousand armed militant organisations in Syria. The political “opposition” splits every other month and can’t elect someone as president without large scale resignations.

With all of this, people here like “mattoid” have the balls to somehow ascertain that all of Syria’s 23 million people want the government to fall. Each time I point out that these “protests” which he constantly bangs on about were tiny and immediately followed up by monster size pro-government rallies.

Sorry, im trying to type as i walk .You’re correct David.I meant at least 4. 4 being the main 4 that western media report about. They fail to highlight and report about these other groups that go cutting open a dead syrian soldiers chest and eating his lung. These are the people the west are backing.

Unfortunately, there is a myth that the US supports one groups calling itself the “FSA”.

In fact, up to 25 armed groups take part in any given important operation. Needless to say, this has resulted in trafficked arms ending up in the hands of Al Qaeda – that’s documented.

People should educate themselves on this “FSA” myth.

Otherwise, your overview is agreed on.

@David Byrne
And its astounding that you’d read so much more into my comments than what I actually said, just because I don’t share your analysis of the situation there.

I’m certainly not questioning the opinion of these two Syrians, I’m questioning whether it can be extrapolated that they represent the views of all Syrian people, which I think is a pretty valid point if you’re any way open minded.

In addition I have never stated that the majority of Syrians (never mind the “whole of Syria”) want to get rid of Assad, but I have repeatedly asserted that nobody (including you) can claim to know what the Syrian people want, as they have never had the opportunity to make their views known in an election – another pretty valid point I’d have thought.

As for your pretty bizarre statement about exposed a dozen times, origin of this conflict, emotional blackmail etc., you’ll have to be a bit more specific than that as I have no idea what you’re talking about, unless its that I have posted a few links to citizen videos of Assad’s forces opening fire on peaceful protests and funerals in the early stages of this conflict?

So, admittedly no one can claim to know what the Syrian people want. Why do you continually take the stand of an apologist for Western intervention and insurgent atrocities against Syrians?

There is more material to suggest the Syrian people want the Syrian government as it is, as opposed to wanting it’s downfall. This is based on recent changes in the media narrative, opinion polls carried out by, yes, Qatar and Turkey, the tiny numbers which “popular protests” attracted which were soon followed by massive demonstrations of millions of people in support of the government. Syrian people don’t want Islamic law, that is a conclusion that most have come to based on Syria’s secular makeup and history. A news article doing the rounds yesterday suggested that the CIA expect Al-Assad to get 75% in next years presidential poll.

The videos you posted before of “regime attacks on peaceful protesters” actually showed nothing. One showed Syrian policemen walk past the guy recording them – hardly the expect actions of a brutal police force, is it?

Move on with the times, accept that it’s not all black and white and as simple as you make it out to be. Either that or you just can’t handle the fact that this multi-faceted conflict is a little more difficult to understand. You continually push this myth that the conflict started with police killing two young lads for graffiti against the regime, when in fact, Al-Assad himself intervened during temporary detentions of aggressive, trouble making protesters in Dera’a 2011.

Even Sky News and a whole host of media outlets are changing the way they see and report this conflict – catch up time mate.

@David Byrne
This is a direct challenge to you.

Show me where I’ve stated that all of Syria’s 23 ion people want Assad to fall.

If you can’t do that, at least do the honourable thing and withdraw the remark.

I rarely place any sense of priority on “direct challenges” over the internet, your comments speak for themselves, as do mine. I have a feeling you’ve just discovered Syria has 23 million people and that the “opposition” doesn’t account for even a percent of that population.

So do I take it that you’re refusing my challenge?

I’d also add to that challenge to show where I’ve been an apologist for insurgent atrocities.

Just because I deplore the brutality of an unelected regime doesn’t mean I automatically support anyone who opposes them!

You can dress it up any way you like, but the Assad regime is still a dictatorship.

Correction: You don’t support the Syrian government. Evidence suggests the majority of Syrians support the government.

Keep using your emotional buzzwords and catchphrases, don’t change anything.

Answer me this simple question David – when was the last time the Syrian people were allowed to vote in multi-party elections?

When was the last time Syrians gave you the right to decide how to chose their method of governance?

In your view do the Syrian people themselves get the chance to decide their method of governance, or is it just a case of tough sh1t if you’re ‘governed’ by an unelected regime?

The Syrian people never wanted this war and the government was implementing reform when the country was plunged into chaos by external actors.

Be it at the distaste of Washington, Tel Aviv, Ankara or simply some idiotic, willingly sheepish keyboard warriors, the Syrian people will decide what direction they want their country to take, not some maniacal Jihadist nutjobs or their apologists here in Ireland.

What interests would they be? Just because America usually has some underhanded agenda doesn’t immediately mean Russia does. Russia’s position on Syria has been consistently misunderstood, or totally misrepresented. It usually surrounds the ill-equipped, basic naval facility which is commonly referred to as some major military base on Syria’s coast.

As are the west Petr. This is why its becoming a proxy war.

@David
Don’t embarrass yourself with your lack of knowledge here, especialling after criticizing others for not educating themselves.

Don’t trip over while you rush to insult me as opposed to actually offering an alternative (albeit astoundingly ignorant) opinion.

In fairness, you embarrassed yourself posting videos of “Syrian police brutality” showing police being dragged away having being shot by “peaceful protesters”.

*David Byrne

Errrr I think you’re getting a little confused there pet – it was you that posted the video of the policeman being dragged away and used this to defend the regime, saying that anti-Assad protesters were the instigators of this conflict, until I pointed out that your video was filmed several months after the original massacres, at a time when the armed conflict had already commenced!

For an “astoundingly ignorant opinion” (love how you don’t resort to insulting me) you could start with Tartus naval base, sales of military hardware, large-scale investment loans, private sector contracts and take it from there, not to mention fear of instability closer to home.

Tartus naval base: Is actually a naval facility that isn’t deep enough to moor any vessel of significance.

Sales of military hardware: Consists of pre-conflict sales, most of which have not been honoured by Russia, specifically the purchase by Syria of Yak-130 combat jets. Recently, Russia delivered Yakhonts anti-ship missiles, this is to defend against military intervention and will probably never be used by Syria. Russia could totally alter the trajectory of this conflict by providing real, useful military hardware. It hasn’t done so. Russia could enable Syria to win the war within a short time. It hasn’t done so.

Investment loans: Name one that is recent and of any significance. There haven’t been any.

Fear of instability at home: Correct. And Ireland and many other countries should be fearful of the amount of foreigners heading to Syria to “wage Jihad”.

Apart from that, Russia has excellent relations with neighboring countries and has called for dialogue including ALL neighboring countries, including Saudi Arabia and Iran. This excellent relationship includes docking its naval vessels in Beirut, Lebanon. So don’t make it out that Russia has no one in the Middle East except Syria. That just isn’t true and this obsession with a tiny, irrelevant naval facility in Tartus is part of agenda to make Russia out to be a warmongering state – a desperate countermeasure to blatant American intervention and shit stirring in the region.

America on the other hand, wants to sideline and ignore Iran in Syria negotiations for its own interests, despite the fact that Iran is a major, major player in the region and will be the difference of solving the problem or not.

Re Mattoid.

You have displayed more than abundantly your lack of knowledge on the Syrian conflict. Let me say it again Mattoid, Syria is under attack from a foreign backed proxy invasion.

B Lowe, looking at what is, and isn’t, going on it is difficult to argue with your assertion. Indeed, it carries all the hallmarks of being yet another American destabilisation for their own ends.

@David
$20bn invested by russian companies in Syria since 2009 (kremlin figures), annual arms trade worth approx. $1bn, 200 tons of banknotes shipped from moscow to Syria in 2011, as evidenced by flight manifests.
And dismissing Tartus as a ‘trivial’ naval base goes against the vast majority of independent military analysts. It is a deepwater base that can accommodate nuclear submarines and RT itself quoted the commander in chief of the Russian navy as saying “This base is essential to us”.

The same “independent” analysts which quoted by virtually all media outlets are Western.
The same “independent” analysts who predicted Al-Assad would be gone a year ago.
Is it?

Deflection tactic is it?
Perhaps you think RT is also pro-western?

Syria also springs to mind!!

Yeah Mattoid, it would if you live and dream CNN and Fox News.

If you delved a little further (and didn’t have a stinking agenda), you’d learn of the daily TV shows in Syria criticising and mocking the government.

And the protestors criticizing the regime?

Which ones mattoid? Show me the protests and show me what they were protesting about.

Were they protesting calling for an end to the regime? Were they protesting for more reform, but to keep the regime?

There’s a “direct challenge” for you.

It doesn’t really matter whether they were protesting for increased reform or protesting for a regime change – the point is they were unarmed protesters who were shot by Assad’s forces for criticizing the regime.

If you want me to show you the protests just search youtube for “daraa massacre” for starters. I could post links all afternoon but that wouldn’t be a good use of my time or your time.

What gives you the right to decide what is and isn’t good enough for the Syrian people and their method of governance?

How many times must you be told that it is actually the choice of Syria, not anyone outside of Syria?

Since you failed to answer earlier I’ll ask you the same simple question again – when was the last time the Syrian people were allowed to vote in multi-party elections?
Or maybe it suits you to ignore this inconvenient question?

Ohh God It’s started. Moron moments

Josh, contribute positivly instead of mocking anyone that doesnt agree with your views. Go watch some more Star Trek.

Lol Dave

Three comments from josh, all of which contain insults. What’s up, did you drop your toast butter side down this morning?

Re Mattoid.

It’s no claim. It’s fact. The US is the world’s leading exporter of terrorism just beating Saudi Arabia.

Here’s 1 for ye Mattoid, the FSA flag showed up in a Simpsons episode dated back to 2001, on the side of a jeep full of foreign jihad fighters, is that just pure coincidence or is there something a lot more sinister going on? Kind of begs the question to what extent Americas involvement in this conflict reaches if ye ask me

Oh please Golden!
The creators of the Simpsons are in on some sort of CIA conspiracy and decided to advertise that fact in one of their episodes? :-D

Did I say that ? Lol think about it