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SAME-SEX MARRIAGE has divided Irish people, something which has become ever more apparent as the referendum campaign has progressed over the last few weeks.
It’s also dividing families up and down the country, like the Tormeys. Dr Bill Tormey is a former Fine Gael councillor and prominent media commentator on health issues. His outspoken views have landed him in trouble in the past.
His daughter, Aoibhinn, who works in the mental health area, is a prominent member of Young Fine Gael who recently, unsuccessfully, contested the party’s eventful Dublin Bay North selection convention.
Bill is dedicated to helping advance his daughter’s fledgling political career, but one area where they don’t agree is same-sex marriage. While Aoibhinn is passionately campaigning for a Yes vote, Bill believes the whole idea is “insane”.
The two even had it out on Twitter recently:
On foot of this, TheJournal.ie decided to invite the father and daughter in for a debate on the issues and to talk about what it’s like to be a family divided…
1. “This referendum is about propaganda.”
In part one, the Tormeys discuss whether the referendum is really just about equality and the issues arising out of the recently-passed Children and Family Relationships Bill.
“We’re all different, but we all need to be equal in the Constitution,” Aoibhinn argues.
So, Bill, isn’t referendum just about equality? No, he says:
“That is a complete lie. This referendum is about propaganda.”
Unsurprisingly, Aoibhinn does not agree:
Later, her father raises a particular court case, to which Aoibhinn has this reply:
Dad, in that case that was about a conjugal visit about procreating children. That doesn’t apply to gay couples because no matter how many times you put them on a conjugal visit it’s not going to result in a child.
2. “He’s just ranting about irrelevant issues.”
In part 2, we talk about surrogacy – an issue that has been brought into the referendum debate quite a lot in recent weeks.
Aoibhinn argues that it shouldn’t be, and says of her Dad’s views:
He’s just ranting about irrelevant issues.
Bill also discusses his controversial comments about homosexuality being a “biological disadvantage”.
The bottom line is, of course by definition, being homosexual exclusively is a biological disadvantage to the holder, because one of the fundamental objectives of the animal kingdom is reproduction of the species.
3. “I just don’t believe in participating in a farce.”
In part 3, we get personal and discuss the implications of this referendum on the Tormey family. Aoibhinn told us beforehand that her mother will probably vote No, while her two brothers are likely to vote Yes.
We ask Bill about a hypothetical situation where one of his children is gay. He states clearly:
If one of my children was homosexual it wouldn’t bother me.
But what if they decided to get married, something he is fundamentally against? Would he go to his own daughter or son’s wedding ceremony? Watch the above clip.
4. Why you should vote Yes/Why you should vote No
Finally, before the debate got under way we asked both Bill and Aoibhinn to outline, in a minute, their arguments for and against the passing of Friday’s referendum.
They both took a little longer than we asked, but it’s worth a watch:
Video and sound: Nicky Ryan/TheJournal.ie
So, who won? Let us know in the comments?
This video was first published at 20.15 on 19 May 2015.
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The 750 jobs in customer service are jobs which have been outsourced to Abtran, they are not Irish Water staff. They would not have to find new work for them just pay the breakage fee on the 5 year contract. Abtran get an inordinate amount of Government contracts, they seem to be as lucky as Denis O’Brien companies.
SF’s new entity name:
Free State Water
Easy! youd have a load of eegits voting for them!!
Derek Nolan Labour TD slating SF, yet charging for water was a red line issue for Labour.So much so that they during the election campaign said they would not enter government if water charges were on the table.
Jog on Labour liar.
there will be no losses from cancelling water charges. nobody intends paying anyway.
Gerry
I and over 1m others have signed up to pay them!
Signing up is not the same as paying up.
My father in law signed up and now is refusing to pay due the scandals that have engulfed this monster of a quango.
2I and over 1m others have signed up to pay them!”
Lies.
Prove it.!
No independently verifiable figures.
propaganda war in full swing now, as bills herald the death knell of this obscenity of a crony quango.
We must stick with FG, FF and LAB, these parties know how to run our country, no other partie deserves a chance, the parties i’ve mentioned have an impeccable history in managing our country.
Election now.
what planet do you live on or can i have some of the drugs your taking
I don’t want someone i.e. Mr. Adams who lives in the UK running my country. It’s like asking Mr. Paisley or Mr. Robinson to lead Britian. Never.
Yet you seem happy Enda is willing to bend over backwards for Merkel, go figure.
This isn’t the fault of Irish Water management – it’s the fault of Government, which locked in these costs in a series of secret meetings right at the start. The Labour party has been on the end of an unmerciful kicking over Irish Water – they promised to fight water charges, and instead are out there telling everyone why they’re such a good idea. So, fair enough. But what about Fine Gael? Unlike Labour, they have managed to escape their broken promises more or less unscathed. This is the party that talked the big talk about transparency, about changing the way politics was done, about running public services efficiently – after the many years of Fianna Fail.
Irish Water wasn’t set up by Alan Kelly, it was set up by Phil Hogan, a Fine Gael minister. Refusing to establish it properly, and reinvest the potential savings into the system, is the work of Fine Gael. Setting it up in secret, with no minutes of key meetings, and no financial plans available, is the work of Fine Gael. Refusing to engage with parliament – that’s the work of Fine Gael. Threatening to turn people’s water down to a trickle, refusing to introduce an ability-to-pay clause – that’s all the work of Fine Gael.
Yes, Labour broke an election promise. But Fine Gael have now demonstrated categorically that when it comes to wasting public money, doing deals behind closed doors, ignoring parliament and putting the interests of the party ahead of the country, they can out-Fianna Fail Fianna Fail with ease.
The French have a well-worn saying, ‘plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose’, the more things change, the more they stay the same. While looking for its source, I came across the following explanation: “New people, new promises, but the same old problems.”
When it comes to Irish Water, and the Fine Gael/Labour axis of incompetence, that just about sums it up.
GOOD READ FROM THE INDO – http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/irish-water-and-a-raging-torrent-of-inconvenient-truths-31118394.html
Least ye not forget…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Ah steven please, please. Stop now. What has FF, FG or moaning joans bunch of muppits done? The poor have got poorer. The ritch have got ritcher particularly O’brien. Via IW. So please. Stop now. Dont believe SF either. They are pro charging for water also. Lies, lies and dam lies the lot of them.
The best thing to do is bring in a law that states, if a party promises someting and fails they must be put in stocks for a month.
LG you can still pay if you want
Have to clarify. I dislike FG and their wag tail moaning Joan party. Plus FF. The point is get rid of Adams and SF have a chance. But like aka Labour and FG all those promises!!! Do you really believe any can deliver? I dont.
What have labour done? What have FG done? what FF did! Do you really believe SF will do better? Adams is a lier. How can I believe someone with soo much baggage. Put in mary lou. And i might consider as long as adams has no association
Nobody gets sarcism any more. :)
ha ha ha ha, try harder to peddle a more convincing line than that.
SF….. Lost in the drive to get elected., be careful what we wish for ……
Like Fianna Fáil in the 1977 general election when they abolished rates and car tax ……. Almost bankrupting the country in the process.
Déjà vu…Auction politics has returned !
Like I’m going to believe some pri@k that hides behind a fake name.
Quango unchained!!!
Your loss. Ha!!!!
1977. Will you get over it. If IW fail the Eurostat it will have to put on the government books. What do we do then? We have to pay!!! Will you be saying the same thing then? SF can only do so much. It’s the public servants who run the country not the party. It would probably cost us less to abolish IW than to keep it on the books.
No rebate for those forced by their landlords/property managers to pay water charges? That seems harsh to non homeowners no?
So they’re going to increase capital gains tax. Eh no thank you. Morons
Why?
Whats your point?? If we wanna go down that route then we need a referendum on Irish Water and see what the REAL “silent majority” is!!
You mean idiots like you voting for the same old same old? Go back to sleep…
You must have your head somewhere the sun doesn’t shine, the parties you mention run this country into the ground and sold out every man woman and child, go to bed and get some rest.
i take it you said this laughing out load
Judy you think the country’s not bankrupt now?
serious sarcasm here, I presume…
I believe it’s called sarcasm!! And it’s spelt Muppets, rich and richer.
Well your the muppets then.. ?
Sinn Fein, should not have to win the GE, for water charges to be scrapped IW and everything about it is rotten to core and should be abolished.
They wont win anyway
Irish Water is the Fine Gael and Labour party’s gift to the Irish people and the Irish people will have their say in the next election.
In fairness to Sinn Fein they have not put their hands into the peoples pockets to finance their political cronies so far ,so maybe they should be giving a chance,it’s inconceivable they could do a worse job than these jokers we have running our country at the moment.
Paul
There hands have being busy elsewhere!
hugh suddenly grew a set and asked some pertinent questions, pity you missed asking them when you had the guys who inflicted the quango that keeps costing yet not fixing.
Kenny and that pr woman should have been asked same questions before they spent the money!!!!
call this journalism?
Hang on a minute, the establishment of Irish Water was in the Fine Gael manifesto at the last General Election. They were elected into government as the largest party and guess what ? They implemented their policy. The real battle now is to try and prevent our water services being privatised where you can be sure your bills (or the taxpayer) will end up paying some very wealthy multi national shed loads of your money. Thanks Fine Gael and thanks everyone who voted Fine Gael and has now got selective amnesia and prefer to blame Labour.
@ Hugh : The question of an alternative way to pay for the supply of water and infrastructure has already been answered by the best TD in the Dail, Stephen Donnelly…..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sexp9EslaAM&feature=youtu.be
Ah someone at SF HQ has finally set the program running, must have been some IT difficulties earlier……….
sarah fg hq has no difficulty spending tax payer money on useless IT equipement especially in castlebar
The journal use the word ‘we’ collectively for the authorisation of the article, its biased towards I.W as usual. and tries to paint Sinn Feins proposals as weak and flawed. would the Journal except that there pandering to the pro government element through the article, Ha. Is the Pope a catholic ?
Fairytale Shinnernomic BS!!
Brendan stop spouting this blatant lie, your no better than a politician if you come here spewing half truths, there is no mention of a private billing company in any parties manifesto, if you believe there is please provide a link.
has anyone seen alan Kelly as I reckon he missed a perfect photo op, ie. putting an iw water bill through a letter box, all smiles and self deluded in the summer sun
Brendan a non recurring charge on the family home was also in their election manifesto, or did you happen to forget that?
Thanks for posting @werejammin very interesting video
Yes – everyone should watch this. Scotland have found a cheaper alternative to Irish Water’s approach.
Ciaran – he’s at home in Tipp, digging the trench to move Lough Derg to Kildare, or wherever they want to move it to….
Hands where? Oh sorry you mean THEIR hands? Go back to school.
Proof that SF are just making it up as they go along.
Wow a party actually listening to the people they represent as opposed to dictating what they feel is best for the people.
It may be populist but it will win my vote and it’s quite clear now that on this promise I will be binning all correspondence from irish water until election time.
Total game changer and fair play to Sinn Fein for coming up with a strategy that can get rid of irish water once and for all and also ensures that Ireland’s greatest national resources remains in the hands of the irish people.
Enda the clock is ticking make your move !
Because the rest of them seem to have such a clear and direct goal and vision to how they’ve been going about things..
SF have no problem listening to the people……..before the election at least
At least they listen at some point ! Current batch don’t even pretend to listen so convinced are they that they know best,
To be fair if I had a golden parachute like the current lot then I probably wouldn’t care about what the common people thought either….
A game changer? God love you.
They make Ed Balls seem financially credible and he struggled with 7×6, the mind boggles.
I think Thomas if you tried a little harder you could be more patronising ?
Make an effort at least shame as usual you have no valid points to make and just belittle this that try to make them….
On the one hand SF wants water to be a constitutional right and people should not be charged, unless you are on a group scheme. Sounds like a Supreme Court challenge. SF make it up as they go along and change policy when they realise its crap.
But oddly they initially supported water charges, at what stage did they decide it should be a constitutional right.
When they thought they might get some extra votes. These guys are followers not leaders.
I hate trolls…this would have been a really good chat…except the troll got in.
Sounds like you ran out of coherent counter arguments jenni.
Not really Brian. That was as patronising as I usually get. But let us see: a poorly thought out populist effort to win votes is what I see. Not a game changer. And there is no strategy in this beyond convincing people like you to give them a first preference. And forgive my cynicism but falling poll figures, a disastrous month in the US for the leader, more allegations of sexual abuse to come, more difficult questions about the past and all of a sudden we’re pulling out border polls and unenactable legislation. So God love you.
Sinn Feign.
This will catch on, trust me.
It’s a game changer for me Thomas as it puts water charges front and centre as the defining issue of the next election. This is exactly what the people who came out in their 100 of thousands to march want and exactly what the established parties in government don’t want as it means sf now control the agenda in the run up to the election.
Isn’t it mighty – An article by Hugh , so as get all The FG Trolls to wake up and start attacking the indefensible ?
The economy will be the defining issue of the election, not IW.
Most voters I know hate cronyism and inept clowns…..I guess fg will be one term again, lolz
You must be mortified that sf who were never in government here have a higher approval rating than Labour and are on a par with fine gael…..MORTO, LOLZ
But Brian that has been the game for a good six months.
If you think that you don’t have a good read on the mood of the electorate
Sorry Paul..I didnt. A certain troll that was prevelant last week seems to have made their way on again this week. I would like to comment on the article though..but will refrain myself
Paul Carey your sorely mistaken, no matter how much the government the media and the likes of yourself tries to ignore it the water sham is the one and only issue that will decide this election, whichever party shouts loudest it will be stopped will be the largest party in government
It’s very odd that FG are rising in the opinion polls so.
It is odd….what with them being embroiled in controversial appointments and being pretty useless.
Paul 25% within the margin of error, 1 point ahead of your hero’s in SF hardly noticeable really.
Not really when you consider they have the independent newspaper spouting hurt agenda daily whilst the independent gives it’s paper in practically free to every place it can.
Problem is Sinn feins announcement make draw the lines very clearly on irish water and no amount of propaganda will work against a polarised electorate. Once the conversations start on the doorstep he independent propaganda machine will lose the upswing it has created in the polls.
How did Fine Gael get on in the latest satisfaction polls Paul? 66% of people pissed off with their high and mighty attitude,
Did you even read the article Brian Boru? Hilarious if it wasn’t so pathetically incompetent. Holy hell surely they could have come up with something better than that. I’m shocked at the ridiculously amateurish attempt at an alternative here. They will end up costing the taxpayer a fortune here if let loose on this.
The government will always make errors, it only becomes a mistake when you refuse to correct it…. John F Kennedy…
Sinn Fein are listening now the rest aren’t
So you will vote for a party that protects paedophiles once they give you free water? Sinn Fein could promise me a winning lotto ticket and they wouldn’t get my vote, I draw the line at voting for a party that justify their actions in relation to vulnerable children and women. Also Brian, why don’t you check out how Sinn Fein govern up north? Ask a northerner about their broken promises on water rates, health, education etc.
Paul admitting he’s a troll, Jenni didn’t mention who the troll was…
Some straight talking from a political party at last.
@smileinastorm am I correct in presuming that you have all the evidence to back this up? I always thought it was innocent until proven guilty
Smile in a storm all the rest have had a chance to prove they are useless already
Sarah, would you shut your trap, we need S.F In government. Why not hold back on commenting until after the GE.
They’ll replace Irish water with Uisce Eireann.
Be careful, Were Jammin is watching………..
Yeah be careful Sarah,you might read a sensible comment if he is.The next election will be won or lost on the travesty that is Irish water.And there won’t be any refunds folks.
Be careful Sarah as people might start to guess that you are “Aido” :)
I always just thought the Were Jammin program just selected its responses from a pre defined list of comments written into its code. It would explain why it seems to spend so much time deflecting and not answering your question. Like chatbot, cleverbot or one of those programs.
@ Sarah… Is that you Tracy??
Joan is that you Michelle?
Aidan Kelly has changed gender, that’s nice.
That happened awhile back,Norman ;) Very poor trolling ;)
This seems like something I don’t want to get involved in and am probably going to regret this but…..who’s Aidan Kelly?
He might as well put a sign on his avatar -pathetic fool
Absolute mong. Was Tracy banned?
Tracy vanished after ‘she’ was caught rapid using multiple accounts.
Were Jammin stay out of this, I’m the true troll hunter
Oggie forgive me it’s hard to keep up with all the new accounts springing up, some even from Pakistan.
Tbh I might be wrong but I don’t think she is that disgusting human being
Trollz4lyfe
@ davedunne “Were Jammin stay out of this, I’m the true troll hunter”
Dammit, now I have to take off my costume.
Were Jammin. Thanks but that sounded an awful lot like a joke you just made. And joking is just one step away from being a YFG troll. See my above comment regarding the seriousness of this site.
I must be doing something right in annoying you Aiden/Tracy and now davedunne. Thanks for copying me account. Your trolling is slightly getting better. keep it up I’m so proud of you.
This is getting out of hand now. What if I’m a troll? Is no one safe?
Everyone take your children to the bomb shelters, I can’t hold them all, they’re too strong!
davedunne/pat joe/baz/shinnerbot I will defeat you
Very true dave keep up your patrols
You have a problem with girls Eddie?
Ian just be careful, I’m watching. Is this your account?
https://twitter.com/davedunne12/status/581908733112020992
I think they prefer the term underbridge dwellers.
We need Frank to sort this out
Nope been commenting occasionally with only this account for the past two years . :)
Interesting conversation
Sarah I haven’t seen your account around here until recently. Me and Glen keep tabs on everyone, did you think I wouldn’t notice? Test me and you will fail.
Switches off notifications.
I might switch to my Facebook account….
So Dermot you admit to having multiple accounts?
It’s says my comments are posted but I’m not sure….I have two accounts, if bebo was still active I’d use that too.
Are you or have you ever been a member of YFG?
Ha ha sarah / tracey / aiden you never give up do you? But you are just too obvious
I’ve only ever joined one illicit group of young gobshytes thinking their opinion were worth anything….the boy scouts.
We had blue shirts though…..
D H it’s so obvious that they are Aidan/Darren/Mr. Fantastic/Shinnerbot/Tracy/Darren/Johngahan/Baz/Sean Mahoney/Frank/Sammy an Madra/Paul Carey/Reg/Top Cat/Business Cat/Emily the Elephant/jenni/joanie/patjoe
We should talk about Renua.
(Are they still a thing?)
@davedunne – “Night gathers, and now my trolling watch begins. It shall not end until my death….” Now I’m confused. Am I you? Are you me? Are we us? Are they even them, or could they, in fact, be us? Or vice versa?
The Journal is becoming like a Philip K Dick novel…..nothing is what it seems and everyone is someone else.
Anything is possible in the matrix
We need change in this country Sinn Fein is the only alternative never voted for them before but will be next election
That’s what people thought about Syriza…
Paul Carey aka the ‘wannabe Shinner’
Oggie, one of these days you will actually make an intelligent point.
So what Paul….people thought that voting FG would be a nice change also…..what a clusterf**k that turned out to be.
in fairness, the NAZI’s accomplished a lot.
You’re a dick :) Done.
How have they been a clusterfu**? They have turned the economy around from the brink of the abyss.
Oggie, I would expect no less from you and the other Shinner losers. It sets you apart from the rest of us.
“I was thinking about voting for Sinn Fein but their continuous denial of past SF / IRA crimes, their deceit, lies and lack any coherent policies have turned me off totally.”- Paul Carey
Really comparing Sinn Fein to the Nazis? Catch a grip of yourself!
Fine Gael….perpetual one term failures.
Enda Kenny being jeered at no matter where he goes….same story as Brutal Bruton last time these useless hoors were in power.
You’re right Liam, I wish to withdraw the comparison. The nazis did not protect peados.
Yes the proper comparison is Stalin.
Liam – Especially where the Blueshirt FG Traditions come from ?
Eoin O’Duffy will never be dead – where the present lot of arrogant toffs are concerned – Bruton – Enda – Hogan etc etc etc !
Eddie Barrett (An Ciarroich) – bit rich coming from you, when did an auctioneer, property speculator and licensee like yourself decide to become a left wing revolutionary?
Eddie Fine Gael expelled O’Duffy because his views were incompatible with their commitment to democracy. Any chance Spin Feign will expel the paedophile protectors?
you mates with Pat joe + Love Guinness + Topcat ? are they off tonight or different accounts?
But ff FG and Liebour did and continue to do so. As well as rapists and white collar criminals.
@paul Carey ‘turned the economy around’??! I voted for change, justice served against the people who put us in the shit and a fresh new approach. Would have been better leaving Fianna Fáil in there as we just got more of the same. If you can point out one thing they have done differently to what Fianna Fáil I’m all ears
Paul Carey have you got proof to back up your allegations?
Sounds fair enough and at least they’re thinking somewhat creatively, hope they’re not just tantalising us though
Seriously? That’s your conclusion from reading that…really?
Yes, I like what they propose and would be intrigued to see how it would work in practice. Opposition parties are meant to come up with alternatives and apart from this I haven’t seen any
Maybe you missed this bit “In fact, there is no such allowance in Sinn Féin’s pre-budget submission. It does say that it would cost €300 million to scrap the charges. But there’s no specific €300 million allowance contained in the document.”
I completely accept that not everyone understands how a modern economy functions or is funded, but it seems that the majority on this site are quite happy once the solution to any problem involves the words “someone else will pay”. The “someone else” always being those rats in society who’ve the cheek to earn >€100k a year.
How many of them would be left here with these clowns in power is a variable that’s completely ignored.
I don’t think it’s a question of wanting someone else to pay, it’s just that if you earn 100k you have slightly more scope to pay a high rate of tax, whereas if you earn 30-50 grand you just don’t, and so as a potential solution I think it has some merit. And I question that ‘a modern economy can only function’by placing much the same burden of tax on middle-earners as on high-earners and so not frightening the rich away. That line has been lazily thrown out for way too long
Clearly, which is why we already have the most progressive tax system in the OECD whereby those that can afford to pay the most, do. Asking anyone to pay 60%+ of what they earn is obscene under any circumstances. If that were to ever happen, expect an exodus of the 6% of the working population who already pay 45% of all income tax. How easy is it to move to the UK where they’ll pay a much more acceptable 45% on earnings over €200k.
Without high earners we will have less revenue, employment and investment. Switch off the lights on the way out.
Doesn’t their plan say 48% rate of tax on earners over 100k, not 60%? I agree 60 might be somewhat off-putting but I don’t think they’re proposing that
That’s my main gripe with people that just accept populist rhetoric as fact without researching the facts or thinking for themselves.
SF say they’ll introduce a new 48% income tax rate for those earning over €100k. Stick the USC on top of that and there’s your 60% effective rate for PAYE employees and 63% for the self employed. Lights out.
Strange that the shinners don’t make that clear.
I think you’ll find that even with the mighty USC it wouldn’t amount to anything near 60%. But as a mindless automaton I accept whatever my leaders tell me, so I might be wrong!
Jeez Fiannaoicht….I paid 59% in the 80′s and that wasn’t because of ‘shinners’.
Pray tell me,what’s obscene about asking people gifted with a good education, and good connections and a good,secure, high end job, to pay 60% of their earnings in tax.?
is it less obscene to ask a family of four, living on one wage of 45.000 Euros annually, to pay 1000 Euros yearly, of after tax income, for their drinking water.?
Stephen, you could always just look it up for yourself. Those rates are correct.
Al, the 80′s are a case in point. High taxes fuelled the black economy and contributed to the brain drain. Surely we’ve learned something from those dark days?
Sean, isn’t education free in this country? Aren’t we all privileged to be given the same opportunities…or have I missed something?
Aside from it being immoral to tax anyone to that extent, there is a concept called the law of diminishing returns. As I mentioned above, high earners will simply move to where tax rates are less onerous leaving bitter muppets like you with more tax to pay back home.
And I also thing you’ll find that most well paid jobs are far from “secure”…excepted the pampered elite in the civil service obviously.
Plenty of money can be saved by not overpaying various sectors to the point of the current economic apartheid between private and public sector. No to wasting money on consultants and inefficiently run projects. Yes to efficiency and reward performance. No to needless beaurocracy and overstaffing. Yes to accountability. There are other options than more tax ie. More revenue. There is option of less money out-across the board starting with politicians. No to €1.14 per mile. No to “eating-at-your desk allowance”. Yes to honesty transparency accountability. No to cronyism. We have options to save on costs while rewarding hard work but this Govt. Had no will.
Fiannaiocht, look up the definitions of effective and marginal tax rates please.
Well said Gregory.
Jammin, the effective rate for someone on say €250k is currently c.50%. You seem comfortable with this approaching 60%. The higher the amount earned the smaller the difference between effective and marginal rate. As 94% of the population don’t earn €100k+ me thinks this presents the easiest populist solution to our problems. As I said earlier “someone else can pay”. Begrudging alive and well in Ireland as ever.
*working population
You have to laugh at Derek Nolan saying Sinn Fein are making it up.
This is from a government TD that has supported this corrupt greedy quango that has been involved in a scandal a day since it’s inception,and are still making it up as they go along.
Just as well he has zero chance of being elected next time,along with many other Labour TD’s.
But if there’s no Irish Water then who is going to safeguard my water for my future ?
These are the things I lie awake at night worrying about….
As the lady says on the radio….Irish Water protecting water for Our future…heh heh
As weak as sf’s argument is I’ll still not be adding any credence to any press release from any member of the despicable Labour party…..
There is a lot of parasites in Irish water and they are not floating in the water.
Ah SF and their crazy ideas.
They still want to keep the USC.
Still want to punish workers with this temporary tax.
A tax that costs the average worker much more than water charges.
Still I suppose id get a free house out of it!!!!
Didn’t you hear Ciaran? They’re going to abolish the USC and give every family in Ireland a free car.
So I believe,
And were all getting a money tree for our free homes and all our utilities will be powered by fairies sprinkling pixie dust.
Damn fairies stealing our jobs!
Ohhhh… What kind of car are they proposing, I hope it’s an Audi, and do we get a choice of colour or do they all come the same?
I actually have a money tree (seriously they do exist in Asian cultures)…It’s good fung shui, supposed to bring wealth and prosperity. I’ve kept it alive for over a year, which for me is a record.
SF is expert at the U-turns. It was very recent that that they told us they would scrap USC. That’s now gone out the window.
Not fairies. Pixies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBHHFnUqo5o
Fg promised to retain services at roscommon hospital…..your amnesia is getting critical Paul, you should seek professional medical advice, but not here…go abroad, fg have made a haims of our health service.
Drew – What car do you drive in CHINA – where you claim to live ???
Think FF fecked up the health service.
FG/lab just didn’t bother to fix it!!!!
Let the battles commence…..
PatJoeJoe versus WereJammin!!! FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!!
Sometimes I think they’re both the same person
Sarah, in truth every account except for yours are controlled by one person. Frank, WereJammin, PatJoeJoe, Baz…..we’re all one.
You’re the only other person on here.
That explains all those voices in my head
*Our head(s).
What happened to Frank btw? Any sightings?
Thanks Undercover, it’s a shame. I think we should have a poll/article on Bring Back Frank
It’d be nice to get a resolution, no question. The posting of a photo of himself (I’d presume) as his Twitter avatar could be advertised to get some answers.
I think Frank was abducted by Obama, the Vatican and reverse vampires.
We’re through the looking glass people.
Ah here. The guy either was trolling his heart out or simply wasn’t well. Going by many of his comments in the last year I’m inclined to go with the latter. I might be being sensationalist but something doesn’t sit right with me about his avatar image…..
If s/f let us down we have no hope left. Except revolution………..
What will happen is all the idiots who pay and want there money back will be told sorry you were to stupid for not listening to us working class people
I’m working class,
And I intend to pay.
They would collectively file a legal suit… And the shinnernomics machine would need to come up with some more theoretical cash.
What !
More flip flops than a spanish beach shop
Lovely piece of propaganda written for and behalf of the Labour Party.
Time for a street party, I’d say.
Fine Gael always leave a legacy of failure and increased taxes, not content taxing children’s shoes they taxed school books, not content taxing a persons home they tax the water they use…..it’s little wonder they’re always one termers, if the next election follows the same trends someone else gets into power to undo fg’s quangos only this time I doubt it’ll be fianna fail.
I never have and never thought I would but I’ll be voting Sinn Fein in the next election to rid the country of the water sham and the arrogant swines Kenny and Noonan… Imagine that’s how far these disgraceful excuses for Irishmen have driven typical middle Ireland, we now see Sinn Fein as a viable alternative, shame on Fine Gael Kenny and Noonan for looking after themselves to the detriment of my country.
How have they “looked after themselves” in your view?
Michael Noonan ensuring all bond holders paid in full, Enda Kenny with his disgraceful attempt to monetise our water no doubt benefiting his buddy and himself further down the line,political cronyism, jobs for the jobs etc etc
Fine Gael: Failure to reform. Failure to save. Do they need €1.14 per mile? Multiple pensions? Unvouched allowances €15k? People retiring mid 50′s on 70-80k pensions en masse. Taa allowance. Tax relief 2nd properties in dublin. Excessive salaries compared to Eu norms. The endless list of allowances. Pensions of €1600-2000 per week?
Silly business. Stephen Donnelly has already displayed how water charges could be got rid of without a hit to the exchequer.
80% tax rates on those who earn over 30k?
Explain the other nonsense from your SF party “Were Jammin”… keep existing staff, replace with another quango, use call centre staff to fix leaks, penalise those who have already paid, make group water scheme users continue to “pay twice”… did you write the 2 pager?
It’s oh so quiet….
Sadly, it doesn’t matter anyway. The Traitor from Tipp allowed our option to opt out of water charges to expire. We are now bound by EU law to pay for domestic water.
I have no problem with that in principle – but the clusterfukk that is IW has NOTHING to do with infrastructure repair, and NOTHING to do with conservation – it exists only to extract revenue from taxpayers. The way it has been set up is completely ludicrous – could you imagine as a private citizen presenting such a business plan for funding?
A central oversight committee (4-12 people) with the power to transcend county boundaries and force co-operation and prioritise repairs for the mutual good could have set up for a fraction of the cost, and Councils empowered to collect the fees in a similar (or even the same) legislation as the LPT.
IW in it’s current form cannot deliver safe, clean water to every home in Ireland, and will never be in a position to do so unless sold off to a private entity, and then it’ll be all about the profit.
The only way the current government can prove that privatisation is not the ultimate plan is to enshrine public ownership of our water in our Constitution – as long as they refuse to do so, I have no contract with IW or any other such entity.
While I’m here – Diarmuid, with the exception of the ‘use call centre staff to fix leaks’ bit – what you describe sounds hilariously like the FG/Lab approach to the set up of IW – staff transferred from councils, new quango, penalising the taxpayer…
Naw , abolish the whole thing ! Bury it , don’t be skirting around the thing !
About time a party listened to the ordinary people of Ireland … SF are giving me hope for my kids future …. I hope they will not emigrate like so many have under successive FG/FF/Lab governments.
There is hope for your kids but there is no hope of SF being elected.
Really feel sorry for you kids if SF are your only hope….
Well for a start it will shut the gimps like “patjoe..tapsalny..baz..and the rest of those cretinous fg trolls.theyll be busy consoling bellenda kenny in so hole!!!maybe even up his
What is the journals obsession with sinn fein ?? you post anything at all to try smear this political party elected to the dail by the people of ireland , and also the second biggest party in north of our country ,
Why does the journal follow the lead that state broadcasters rte has set and the road that o briens media outlets follow
What exactly is your agenda ??
Are the journal pro water tax ,pro usc tax ,pro austerity ,
What is in it for the journal to be so pro fine gael labour and so anti every other political body ,
Fine gael and labour have inflicted havoc on society thats plain to see ,take the rose tinted glasses of
The answer to all your questions is Hugh O’Connell.
Just click on Hugh O’Connells twitter account under his name at the bottom of the article Jane and see who he is following and who is following him, virtually every Fine Gael politician that has a twitter account is accounted for.
TheJournal.ie badly needs a shake up of it’s staff, it’s like the Independent mk2.
Sinead as news editor needs to go, place gone to the dogs with troll accounts since she took over.
I really think no matter what Sinn Fein does the Journal will find some way to make little of them it’s a small pity you don’t do the same with FINE GAEL AND LABOUR
Don’t shoot the messenger. SF are well capable of making fools of themselves.
and sf set up irish water
Forget the water charges. Can live with that. First party to delete the USC gets my vote!
Don’t vote SF then. They u-turned on that issue.
Fine Gael said they’d get rid of it
so that’s them fools gone too.
And replace the lost revenue with…?
Fine Gael didn’t go into details either….I think there was an election brewing.
Replace with….try something new and novel- efficiency, transparency, accountability. Labour Ministers pensions alone €15mln start there. Tax free €130k lump sums? Tons of scope to save money but no will. End public-private apartheid
mumble, mumble, mumble, something, something, something… and around again we go…
Irish water has been a whole load of trouble for very little revenue, the only way it will ever be worth it to the state is if the sell it……
Denis?
What an evil sect
Couldnt help yourself Antrim!
How’s the Orange Order going for you?
What the fcuk would I care about the OO for, I’m not a member.
of course you are not Antrim/Jamsie Boy
At least I’m not in the IRA jim
You looking forward to the 12th of July Antrim? – Tis a pity that your lots little soiree down to Dublin was given the old heave ho, would have been nice to see some of you knuckle draggers in person.
So as I thought you are in the Orange order then Jamsey Boy, I bet you are right proud of the bigotry and hatred that you guys pedal
At least I’m not in the IRA
Wernt many of you to be seen when the real conflict was on Pearce.
I’ll be in Dublin in July for an ACDC concert in the Aviva stadium pearce, I’ll happily meet you for a pint if you like.
Just a question, am I right in assuming that if SF increase Capital Gains Tax to 40% that it means that children inheriting a family home and/or getting a few bob from their parents to help with eg their weddings will be liable for this tax once they have passed the threshold which has been lowered considerably over the term of this Government ?
Would that not be inheritance tax?
I’m open to correction but as far as I know CGT is only applicable to non-direct-family transactions, kids and husbands/wives are exempt
Thanks for your reply, as far as I am aware there is a threshold for taxfree inheritances and after that a rate of tax of at least 30% kicks in. This threshold includes money that a parent may have given a child over many years, there is a cap of €3000 per child per parent per annum, after that the tax is payable. With property prices rising a child could end up with a large tax bill when they inherit a fairly modest house. So if CGT increases to 40% this will affect them.
Hopefully I’m wrong about this !
@Brendan – completely agree with you regards FG but you can’t let Labour off the hook either. They broke evey one of their promises in that Tesco like leaflet that they produced before the last election. The people were duped by both parties in all fairness. Labours job was to act as a buffer against the harsh ‘austerity’ being implemented by FG at the behest of their European masters. They failed miserably on all counts and actually appear to be encouraging and cheerleading these outrageous financial attacks on the ordinary person that they claim to represent. One only has to look at Enda ..sorry Alan Kelly for ample proof of this..threatening legal proceedings, deductions from salaries, back dated fines etc etc. Really disgraceful and indeed very intimidating esp to those struggling to get by, Then there is Joan Burtons contemptuous phone remark and Rabbittes “busy lowering the living standards of the Irish people” comment last yr, as well as his desire to censor the media in favour of IW. All those things have really pi**ed Joe Public off and I still see them getting an electoral wipeout come election time despite what that latest opinuon poll says.
I agree, an awful lot of spinning going on at the moment,Joan was on Morning Ireland this morning couldn’t get a straight answer out of her, they are in for a big fall. People have had enough.
My wife signed up to irish water without informing me. She gave them a direct debit mandate too. How do i un-sign?
I think it’s called an annulment or are you talking about the water contract
Simple short letter to the bank works, stating you wish said DD to be cancelled.
So those that pay tax will be penalised. Those that don’t will get away scot free. That’s a very clear message from SF on their attitude to tax enforcement. A lot in common with the Greek mentality there.
Joe it happened before with water charges in Dublin.Those that paid got no refund when they were abolished.
There are no penalties till mid 2016 so worth the wait till the next GE.
It’s going to be a prerequisite for any of them, simple as, watch them as The election gets closer. Shur if we elect anyone who intends to keep it, and all the rest of the charges, brought in to pay the bankers who have the shit on them, well we really can’t complain afterwards can we.
So there’s a constitutional right to water – unless you’ve been paying for it via a group water scheme?
How does this make any sense? Either water is paid by taxes on cars or on bananas, or it should be free for all. Why the discrimination against rural ireland?
Group schemes are subsidised by the state and everyone pays taxes which contribute towards water provision.
So why do people on group schemes pay in excess of €100 per year and have been for decades? The Shinners can’t see that by putting a constitutional right to water in place, those on group schemes cannot be charged, otherwise it’s anti-constitutional. The penny will drop for the Shinners eventually.
Paul €100 a year is far more preferable than what the FG clowns originally wanted to charge and will charge after 2019.The figures for an average family stand at around €700 all still available online.
FG/Lab thought people were just going to roll over and accept this charge.Boy were they wrong.
Rural ireland get nice views and roads paid for by city dwellers with tiny gardens.
Gregory, in rural ireland you also have to travel 10k to buy a loaf of bread
Has anyone else noticed that the 40% wasted water rate has mysteriously become 50%? Will this happen to the proposed 48% tax rate as well?
Imagine someone might keep their promise
Unlike the irisIrish labour party the most discredited party, but maybe they’ll fool some people again judging by some of the comments here.
quick question for finegael which I expect hugh can answer. How can finegael talk about money that will be lost by dropping the water charges that nobody intends to pay anyway
I would prefer if any party that was proposing to abolish IW, that they do just that,even if there is some monetry severance pay to be given to the quango, it would be worth it.
So water wastage can continue and what happens if the greater Dublin area experiences water shortage. I would prefer a reduction in income tax rates and pay 3 euro a week for unlimited water.
Sinn Fein will abolish “Irish Water”.
And replace it with “Real Irish Water”!
Or maybe ‘Continuity Irish Water”?
Or will it be split into Official IW and Provisional IW? The latter will be tasked with calling around to collect the charges.
Fg should have just called it O’Briens water and stop all this messing about….btw, your comment has been used before, try keep up.
Will the official IW disband and their members join fine gael in forming a government?
Gerry Adams talking about figures as if it made sense to him. He can barely count to ten and he’s talking away there about millions as if it made sense to him, he is a bluffer.
If Gerry was in fine gael he’d get a great job in Europe….(coughkevin Cardiffcough)
Your probably right Dermot, Don’t think anyone could defend him or his promotion to Europe.
Civil service is a Joke
Wow your man dotherty’s talks as much sXXt as enda, we are scrapping it but it’s there but I’m not sure is it there or will some other department run it, I’m not sure.
If you want your party tube taken seriously pierce speak with some conviction.
The country’s fecked lads.
How do you get yourself out of bed in the mornings Dermot ?
I normally get the woman to push me….
How much time do you dedicate each day to being a Shinnerbot?
Why don’t Sinn Fein want to give businesses free water?
If it is written into our constitution that we have a right to water then they’ll have to pay for the upkeep and electricity to run people’s wells in rural areas.
They are anti-business and pro-sit around on your arse and look for free stuff.
As opposed to Kenny and his like who are anti self employed and anti middle/lower Ireland and sit around working out ways to keep their buddies and idiotic followers in cushy jobs paid for by us the taxpayer
Anti business……damn sf making it harder for small business to get noticed whilst they give multinationals generous tax breaks…..cheek of them.
Can Enda and his party not see that the Irish people have payed enough for everything these past few years and that there’s no more to give. He’s a spineless B.astard and the cun!s that work with him
Thank god they’re never be in a position to actually follow through with their written on the back of an envelope proposal. It’s easy to oppose everything when in opposition and that’s all they’ll ever be because they’re political poison.
Basically anyone that pays a utility bill can feck off and any one that doesn’t bother their arse will be fine.
How many people that pay will vote for them
Must have been a fair big envelope that sierras contract was written on….wink wink.
Still the same old Sinn Fein not a f**kin idea what they are talking about. A leader who still says he was in the IRA a deputy leader who is a thick a two planks. GOD HELP US ALL IF THEY GET INTO POWER
john not even homer simpson would still fall for the independant/rte rhetoric you have just sprouted
More right-wing spin crap from the journals finest or are you the aaa with your anti-shinner agenda??? newton is onto you.
Bill to Repeal Property Tax Law on Family Homes. This Tax Law is regressive.
Bill to Reform Car Tax Law to tax the wealthy who can afford new cars with high tax and older cars low tax like every other country. The Irish Car Tax law is one of the most regressive and obscenely penal tax laws in the EU.
Bill to Repeal Water Services law. This Tax Law is regressive.
Bill to tax Financial Transactions. Tax on bank and financial institutions’ transactions, same as Germany and France etc.
THE GOVERNMENT WOULD HAVE SAVED MONEY IF THEY USED ALL THE MONEY THEY USED AND GOING TO USE FOR IRISH WATER ON FIXING THE LEAKS IN THE FIRST PLACE RATHER THAN TO SET UP A COMPANY TO LATER PRIVATISE IT TO IMPRESS THE IMF?
We are an Island surrounded by water ilmao. …. if the gov sell this to fools who buy in…they’d be charging for air next…anyone who supports this including those who work for or supply labour to should be ashamed. …
It’s worrying how many votes these cowboys are going to get. Now that the ground work has been put in for Irish water, surely it makes more sense to charge people less than the cost of abolishing it and the cost of implementing new tax bands etc. Tax bands are already crazy low as it is. You work like a dog to achieve a high salary and then get taxed through the nose. Bigger jokers than the crowd already there
Irish Water staff? Now let me see, what happened the Danes at Clontarf? They will then after all have more water than they have ever realised. These quisling’s have not complied with the wishes of the people. The words of the poet need’s to apply here period!
The leaks will cost billions to fix, the only way to pay for it in a cost effective way is to borrow from the markets through IW with the user paying a contribution..either that or huge taxes for everybody earning over 100k
The very people earning over 100k are the decision makers in our society, the business owners, chief executives and well educated.
There will be a mass exodus( worse than recent times) of the educated population and FDI will dry up with no company wants to move to a jurisdiction where they are at an immediate disadvantage to their neighbours.
It’s all well and good calling for it to be scrapped but the real cost will hit in years to come if it is scrapped
I agree that the charge will definitely go up in a few years as it is unsustainable at the current levels but this should be reflected in reduced income tax in years to come. Not paying twice!
So much misinformation and scaremongering out there it’s crazy..
I’m open to anybody’s opinion once they have facts to back it up and not hypothetical garbage!
What a load of rubbish ! SF clueless !!
just have this mental image of Miss Poolbeg performing “I Put A Spell On You” and seducing Hugh O’Connell on one of her visits to the Journal HQ.
No complaints from Rabbitte and iMoan here anyway.
Love the way there’s no issue whatsoever with Irish Water overstaffing (even if, yet again, IW are unable to actually provide figures) – but if SF were to honour those exact same contracts and try and boost productivity, that would be ludicrous and wasteful.
Mind you, if such a great and independent man like Derek Nolan is against it….
Get rid of Adams and his associates then I’ll think of voting for them until then never. I don’t believe someone from the uk should rule this country. I would also not vote for FF, FG or labour. SF supports water charges, they are lieing through their teeth.
Quite obviously Sinn Feins plan isn’t faultless but is it less faultless or more faultless than what any of the other parties propose or what exists already. I’d give them the benefit of the doubt. I do find it funny the way people constantly pick apart Sinn Feins economic policies as if they have no credibility whatsoever, but seriously how credible are the current crowd and other opposition parties. There is no doubt that there are issues with Sinn Feins economic policies but they can’t really be any worse and they are less likely to hand over the last shreds of our sovereignty to the EU super state. FG have been lucky ,changes in the global economy such as an ever weakening euro amongst many other factors and variables have more to do with growth in the Irish economy than anything FG have done but I don’t think most Irish people will se it that way when it comes to the next election.It will certainly be interesting.
I can’t wait to see Sinn Fein and other left parties/candidates winning the next election. For the first time ever, we will have a government that actually cares for the citizens of this country. It will also be great to see the smile wiped of Kenny, Kelly and Burton’s face. We’ve had enough of FG FF and LB.
My Facebook account doesn’t work here.
Any suggestions that doesn’t involve Sinn fein.
“Public servants run this county” excluding guards, fireman, nurses etc. public servants run this country into the fu*king ground! Jobs for life and just work if you feel like it today! Give me a break cause you lot get them @10:30, @1 and @3:30!! Worked past 5 today so extra day off this week!!!
it’s already been established that the cost of collecting bills will outweigh the revenue generated, in which case an alternative is of utterly no importance.However as Scotland has demonstrated there is a very simple solution to a problem which on the whole has been constructed by capitalist greed
its obvious that the fg brownshirt party will get in next year as they control the media and I guarantee will rig the election. everybody is going to vote against labour and edna and his cronies will start their usual dirty tactics against sf pre the election watch Decembers budget were likely to see lots of sweeteners to keep people happy but I hope were not too shortsighted and instead vote out all the major parties who have no sense of pride when it comes to dealing with the irish people at all.
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I thought Sinn Fein just sent their armed members into banks to rob them at gun point. They must have developed a seriously good IT Department in recent years.
If, Sinn Fein, the political wing of an organisation who, along with their followers, support and legitimise the murder of innocent people and child abuse, can convince enough of the unemployable, parasitic, tricolour abusing, cretinous scrotes who support them to put down their cans of Dutch Gold for a day, stick a Celtic shirt on and find a voting station for the first time in their lives they may actually be elected to lead an Irish Government.
If this happens and that British liar, Gerry Adams, will lead a party who through their policies will lead Ireland down a road which will see us end up in a similar if not worse state than that of Greece. Foreign investment will cease and foreign companies will pull out of Ireland. The wealthiest 10% of all people who pay over 60% of all taxes paid in Ireland will take their money else where.
Sinn Fein’s economic policies are equal to that of a blind cat with an abacus.
Wow peter Clancy you are wasted here,
You should pitch a tent up somewhere and start fortune telling,
Your misconception of everything amazes me,
You sound like one of those frightened people who Sinn Fein have said they will tax,
As for the dutch gold remark,
Its was probably made with dutch courage,
Some people are still going around with a stone in there shoe because Sinn Fein have committed to a peaceful way forward,
They are a very powerful political party that will be having a say in government in the upcoming elections.
FF spouted the same meaningless crap that you are spewing now. Ooh if we pay peanuts we get monkeys. So they paid top dollar for “special consultants and spin Dr’s and look what happened. ALSO, FF AND FG murdered raped and terrorised civilians only a few years ago. These days they just commit treasonous financial acts apon our country and clap themselves on the back. Bring back hanging.
I will vote for Sinn Fein if they are scrapping Irish water.
I DON’T know it sounds very sketchy,
I remember that moron going on TV with that sheet of paper
( the contract )
He was desperate to get into government,
And look at the way they turned on us,
Guards throwing people to the ground and dragging people off to Garda stations over objecting to water meters being put at there homes,
Sounds like Sinn Fein will say anything to get into government,
One wonders will they keep there word that they gave to the electorate.
Sweet fuuuuuu#k all is what would happen and Ireland would go back on its merry way lol
Its Amazing they are saying this with a election next year, would they do it if they were the new government? i don’t think, Only Fianna Fail would.
have your say