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A NEW PAY deal that will see public sector workers receiving an additional €2,000 over the next two years has been rejected by one of the main teachers’ unions.
The Teachers’ Union of Ireland executive committee will be recommending to its members that they vote in opposition to the new Lansdowne Road Agreement when they are balloted on it in November.
Its opposition comes from a feeling that the agreement has failed to tackle a number of concerns that the union has.
These specifically refer to ‘flex’ hours that had been in place under the Haddington Road Agreement.
Why are they opposing it?
‘Flex hours’ mean that, at the request of management, individuals working at third level may be required to work an additional two lecturing hours above what is the normal standard in any lecturing week in the year.
Speaking about the public servant pay deal, TUI President Gerry Quinn, said, “Research has demonstrated that our members in institutes of technology are experiencing high levels of work-related stress as a result of the additional ‘flex’ hours given for the duration of the Haddington Road Agreement.”
At second level, teachers are frustrated and disillusioned by the extra hours of bureacracy and administration required under the Croke Park and Haddington Road Agreements.
He went on to say that the the union considered the agreement completely unacceptable and would be opposing it.
What is in the new pay deal?
The new Lansdowne Road Agreement will cost the exchequer an additional €566 million over a three-year period.
Effects of the pay increase will impact most on those earning less.
Someone earning €30,000 will take home the full €1,000 next year (an increase of 3.3%), and someone earning over €60,000 will take home an extra €733 (an increase of 1.2%).
Those earning over €100,000 will not receive any increase until 2018.
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As a nurse I would really prefer better working conditions such as patients off of trolleys or corridors and more nurses (not management) than a pay increase. Can we sort out the public sectors problems before pay increases?
Love you Maria!
The government would rather you only thought of yourself and took the pay restoration in exchange for your vote.
Maria it’s not a bloody increase its pay Restoration…!!!! And yes we want it :)
@ maria, we ALL want “celtic tiger pay restoration”, but only the lucky (well cosites) ones get it!
Paid in borrowed cash, that’s a great system!!!
Spot on Ger, if it was a pay increase they would have to get back the 20-22% they have already lost !! And that’s across the public sector board. What ever happened to accurate/factual reporting journalism
Met a french teacher (52) in paris, she was on 2.5k per month. And didn’t have 3 months holidays per year. Join us in the private sector, much better :)) = not. 21 days holidays. #primadonnas
Equality for all. #definedcontributionpension.
Again, its not a ‘pay increase’, its a partial restoration of the cuts suffered by the public service.
Cuts that were unavoidable because the boom times under Bertie and the Celtic Tiger were unsustainable. Nobody has an issue with pay increases but going back to 2009-2010 wages and perks is never going to happen
That wasn’t a cut that was public sector wages being benchmarked(which they lobbied for in previous years when it meant an increase) to match that of their private sector counterparts which tumbled during the post 2007 recession.
Hah- stop will you . It’s borrowed money- simple as that , Borrowed by all for the benefit of some , when many of the many borrowers are paid 50% less on average than those it will be given to , and its still not enough! Gwan Ireland
Drew. What were Gardai, Firefighters and Prison Officers wages benchmarked against?
Is there a Private Sector equlivent of any of the above in the country?
Mick , maybe who might try the EU average for those professions and see how that pans out ?
So Jammin you think the Celtic Tiger era is a fair benchmark for either the public or private sector?
Crazy stuff. It’s like we’ve learned nothing.
Other countries police forces and Fire-services maybe …
And we’re talking about teachers here. Who salaries rose from 7th in world to 3rd behind only german and Swiss in benchmarking program that cost the country 1.2billion a year.
Wouldn’t even mind if our teachers ranked the best in the world. But they ranked 10th.
Again it’s more money to the overpaid and under worked borrowed by the tax payer to feed a unions ego.
A tax cut for everyone is fair not a pay rise for the lucky job and pension for life brigade
@Were [redacted]
Fair play to you sticking up for teachers when they clearly failed you so badly.
The definition of a ‘Pay Increase’ is if you get MORE money next month than you did this month for the same amount of work done.
It is a pay increase.
@John, like the art teacher that failed to teach you about perspective and the bigger picture so
Split
Sorry I didn’t do art, too busy doing economics
@ Split – could you explain the bigger picture in the context of a heavily indebted country borrowing money on behalf of all of its citizens to pay one heavily protected public sector ? I missed the Art class as i was taking fairness 101
You both must have absented yourselves from English as well, it’s “S-P-I-L-T” not split. If you lost a leg to medical malpractice and the doctor handed you a crutch and said “There you go, I’ve just given you a mobility increase” that would be perspective/bigger picture to me in this instance.
Spilt, my sincerest apologies for any inadvertent distress caused by the misspelling of your moniker. Still, I don’t recall that we ever explicitly learned to how spell every word in the dictionary, so it’s highly unlikely that being absent from English class was a likely cause of our ‘transgression’. Moreover, I’m disappointed that as an educator you would have such poor deductive powers so as to assign absenteeism over a simple mistake. Anyway, I digress. Your metaphor was puerile, unless of course the crutch you refer to is in fact the private sector on which you heavily depend , then it becomes very clever , but I have my doubts you rascal .
You were not ‘learnt’ anything, you were ‘taught!.
John, does your defining pay increase make the point about PARTIAL restoration of previous levels pay untrue? I always thought past numbers were very important in economics as future numbers aren’t usually concrete. Either I’m wrong or you’re a bad economist.
Dave
Where did I say it was untrue??
I merely corrected ‘Were [Redacted] when he suggested it wasn’t a pay increase. I also did not say I was an economist but was studying it rather than Art.
Economics cannot predict the future but any businessman will tell you that if you are running a deficit and you decide to borrow to cover ‘current expenses’ ie. public pay, then you are heading for financial trouble.
@Tensing, I’m not employed in that field. Sorry to kick your crutch from under you (“,)
They should just reduce or abolish the Public sector pension levy instead of all these little tax reductions here and there. The pension levy was introduced for a period where the economy was in serious trouble. Now that it is on the up again they should stand by there word and aim to abolish it like they should abolish the USC
The pensions are not sustainable. The only justification for scrapping the pension contribution is to scrap the pensions, or use the pension contribution in an individualised defined contribution pension.
Samuel – One honest question – Do you think that the contribution you make to your own pension will cover the cost of that pension assuming you live to the average age for a male in Ireland ? if not , who do you think does or should a make up the shortfall? serious question!
That’s not the point I’m making. The public sector pension levey was introduced by the late Brian Lenihan and accepted by union officials as a way of taking money from workers to pay towards getting the economy back on its feet. It was agreed that it would be abolished/phased out once things were on the up again. Instead of pay rises for public service members they should just do what they agreed on and reduce/abolish the Public service pension levy.
So just because that wasn’t the point you were making we should ignore the fact that the pension levy at least in some way went to just supplementing the cost of a pension that you cannot cover yourself . I’ll the question in another way , is it fair that everyone should borrow to supplement the pay and pensions of some who by chance are also the most secure in terms of pay and pensions ?It a simple question of fairness . Last week the county patted itself on the back passing equality legislation for marriage but tell me about the equality of lifestyle in this country in 30 years from now between those in average private versus average public jobs living on their respective pensions
Well said Tensing, if this government start chopping at useful taxes, ill jump ship.
Im not going to continue to fork out a fortune in taxes to give a bonus to the public sector and leave USC which benefits all untouched. Makes no sense.
On top of that, the unions what to lower productivity which i find a scandal,
Equality for all. Cancel Defined Benefit Pensions. Costs us a fortune. For every €1 the worker puts in the employer (the State) puts in €7.
PRSI was a temporary measure!
There isn’t a person on here who doesn’t want a better deal for themselves in one way or another. The public sector were the whipping boys of the recession despite not having caused it while bankers and politicians were left with bonuses and pension deals It’s about time the average PAYE worker got something back. Good luck to them.
Teachers are not the average PAYE worker. They are overpaid and under worked.
A USC cut would benefit all, especially average workers.
Public Sector the ‘whipping boys of the recession’ ?
What about the thousands of private sector workers who lost their jobs?
@Steve
“The public sector were the whipping boys of the recession”??????
I think you will find that the construction workers and the private sector workers who LOST their jobs were the ‘Whipping Boys’ of the recession, not some cosseted, un-sackable, guaranteed a job for life with a generous pension employee of the state.
Beano, both public and private employment levels dropped by similar percentages during the recession.
Also public sector pay levels dropped by larger percentage terms than private sector workers.
Remember every single public sector employee had pay cuts of a min of 15%, not including taxes and USC etc.
@Eric..what are you smoking?
Do you honestly believe the public sector suffered the same number of job losses and wages cuts as the private sector?
Don’t believe everything you read in your SIPTU manual
What does people in the private sector losing their jobs have to do with the public sector? When the recession hit people were jealous of the permanence of public sector jobs. People who didn’t care while the Celtic Tiger roared what public sector workers had suddenly took notice. People who were in PS jobs during the Tiger years didn’t get the bonuses and perks the private sector offered. They had permanence and that’s all. The government spin had everyone blaming the public sector and not who was really to blame. So yes, I stand by my comment.
the public sector had no impact on the boom economy???
“The public sector were the whipping boys of the recession despite not having caused it”
Who was advising the government on what to do? Senior Civil Servants of course.
Beano, please educate yourself before firing out glib remarks, more fool you for believing the biased views of the indo.
Here are the facts;
Peak public sector employment- 320k, now 290k, approx 10% drop
Employment numbers 2006 2.1 million, now 1.94 million, approx 8% drop.
If you go back to the worst of recession the employment drop was about 12%.
Have you conceded my point on numbers losing their job?
Pay gap between now about 7.5%. This does not factor in pension levy which is about 7.5%.
Neither does it take into account the fact that the percentage of public sector employees with 3rd level qualifications is double the private sector.
Also keep in mind that approx 400000 out of 1.9 million private sector works are part time and seasonal.
Nor does it include wages to self employees and company directors who on average make multiples of paye workers.
http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/public-service-pay-gap-2071280-Apr2015/
Do not believe everything you read on the indo, it is biased and corrupt to special interests. One of these is IBEC who’s aim is to keep do pay and they do this by attacking unions and public sector workers and filling the heads of people with skewed propaganda.
The public sector. A bad job in good times and a (relatively!) good job in bad times….swings ‘n’ roundabouts
Yes many of us are underworked. Mainly because we can’t get decent contracts.
I’d love for every teacher in the country to just quit tomorrow. Then, all these bitter dole scroungers who blame their teachers for their crappy lives would be forced to do without the free day care the state provides via our schools and have to actually try and be decent parents instead of sitting in their jocks watching Jeremy Kyle all day. The amount of clueless clowns on here who think they’re economics experts is just hilarious.
Surely they would be better waiting till September to quit so that the parents would notice???
@Eamon, well we all would like if the CRAP teachers left, and split their salerys up amongst the great teachers out there! IRELAND would jump in the world league tables, but we know that ain’t about to happen!!
Here we go. Activate rage in 3,2,1….
IT is a joke that they get the increase let alone hear they are rejecting it,
Lower USC would be far better for everyone and would provide more income at the same time,
A tax cut for everyone rather than borrowing money to feed the public sector unions. Is the only real way to go.
As for teachers rejecting this well just say fair enough and goodluck then leave it at that.
I am a teacher and I agree….lower usc for everyone would have greater benefits and as for Haddington / Croke pk hours…scrap them completely and recognise the thousands of hours that are volunteered by teachers to coach teams, train choirs, help with project work etc. C.P.hours are a waste of precious time spent talking about talk!
Agreed!
This “volunteer” effort by teachers is part of the expectations intrinsic to the position. Like summers off, training days?, etc.
Teachers are greedy.
@skeyers Why do we have to ‘recognise’ teachers for the extra curriculum activities like coaching team’s? I coach underage rugby, there are no teachers coaching in the club I’m a member of but every time theres a criticism of teachers pay, hours, holidays, etc, the ‘extra curricular activities’ cliché is rolled out. Guess what. Everyone does extra curricular activities! Club coaches are from every walk of life. Only difference being is that everyone, except teachers, works long hours, most come directly from work to give up their time to coach, often not going home before going coaching. I’m self employed and have often had to travel back from Dublin, and further, to coach teenagers during the week, as do my fellow coaches. Sometimes going back to work again afterwards. Oh, and that other favourite line about having to mark work at home. Again 9 out of 10 people take work home with them, except workers other than teachers bring it home 12 months a year.
Because, Middle Class Cork, it is volunteer work. Sometimes before school & after school & during weekends & during holidays. Those if us who volunteer to coach, train, mentor are not allowed to count it as Croke Pk hours and feel aggrieved by this. Also…many of us volunteer in our local communities as well as in our schools so you are not unique I’m afraid.
Chris, “as for the teachers rejecting this..” teachers haven’t rejected it. The unions have said teachers should reject it. It’s very different. It has to go to a vote.
Rory Conway is greedy.
It’s not an increase, and it’s nowhere near two grand for me it’s an extra €5.82 a week or €0.14555 an hour on a 40 hour week. If they did increase my salary by €2000 then it’d still be nowhere near the money they’ve taken from me over the last couple of years! I
I’m pretty sure the definition of volunteering could provide some clarity here. We all know teachers do a very important job but please remember where the money ye are looking for will come from. Those of us that can’t go on strike because we won’t have a job to go back to. What price would you out on job security?
The money we are looking for is OURS!!!! If you’re not happy in your job get a new one!!
“If you’re not happy in your job get a new one” likewise. How is the money yours again?
Unfortunately they have to educate your spawn
they don’t “have to”
Of course a ‘Teachers Union’ would be the first Union to object to getting a better deal than most workers in the state this year they make the ‘Ulster Says No’ crowd look positively progressive.
still they will be on their three month, fully paid, holiday break soon.
Unions trying to hold a country to ransom again, they are already over paid so unless they get put to work for the six months of the year they current spend on holiday they may jog on
Get rid of Extra Croke Park hours (detention for teachers). Otherwise no deal.
Either you get pay increases and work the current workload or you don’t get pay increases and the government use the money to hire more staff and so you get less hours – can’t have it every way
But they are teachers. They deserve it every way. It’s not a job, it’s a vocation ya know.
Whatever teachers do let’s hope they don’t let the Irish educational system mimic the UK system. Irish education is v good.
The system in the UK is actually going down our route now with a terminal exam
TUI – cop on to yourselves!!!
The public v private sector debate needs to end. I am a teacher. I know how hard I work. I once worked in private sector & worked hard there too. As a teacher I want the extra hours to end. Keep the money and when there is enough, reduce or eliminate the USC for all workers.
@David you really have some delusion about the teaching profession. I am a teacher I am on a RPT contract for the full 22 hours (this is just classroom teaching does not include the 4 after school clubs I coach, the correcting, or planning I do outside of these hours) I earn 30,000 a year BEFORE tax, USC, pension levy etc.
And you know what ? I’m still rejecting this “increase”, because I value working conditions and the standard of education that my students receive above anything else.
You need to wake up and realise that not all public sector workers are on €70k + with gold plated pensions. Also we can be sacked there is no such thing as permanence any more we get CID’s (if we are lucky).
Stop blaming the front line who are struggling to get by as much as anybody else in the private sector. I do my job because I love it, and because I am good at what I do – I don’t think some respect and decent working conditions are too much to ask for.
Here here Clare. Well said. Direct and to the point. People who have not spent at least one full year teaching have no idea of how physically and emotionally draining it is.
So why not leave and take up the better pay, conditions, job security and pensions in private sector ?
The number that has speaks volumes …
Would you stop! Physically and emotionally draining ? Starting at 9, finishing at 2 with 2 breaks in between and then all the holidays ? God help you if you had to do some real work.
Tony. My normal finishing time was 5. Regularly I was there until 6. Breaks are a requirement. Much work and preparation outside class. Lots of interaction with students dealing with a wide range of issues. I speak from experience. Looks like you speak from prejudice to be honest. Try and reevaluate your view of teaching and you may then make a more positive contribution to the discussion. Hope that helps you.
Bio
I don’t have any predudice, it just makes me laugh when I hear a teacher saying their job is physically and emotionally draining. I work shift work in the private sector where unfortunately breaks aren’t a “requirement” but more like a bonus most of the time. I don’t get 3 months off every summer either. I don’t have any beef with teachers just don’t tell me you’re job is so tough, when it is obvious you don’t work anywhere near the same hours as most others.
It’s a pay increase for those who were/are overpaid and underworked! Fine, let them reject it, just hire more at the current rate and leave it at that!
Dear sheeple. Everyone suffered to an extent during the recession, which has not ended at all. I don’t know a single friend of mine who has had their wages increase – public or private. These kind of articles are wonderful in deflecting away from issues that cost the government and by extension the people far more money. Selling aer Lingus on the cheap, criminals like O’Brien getting contracts from crooked ministers etc. This article is akin to the regular “dole fraud” daily mailesque specialities that the journal has emulated. Notice how comments are allowed on this article so public and private sector can tear shreds off each other. Notice also how many articles with redacted as the subject have a no comments policy. Wake up.
Maybe they will go on strike when they come back after their summer long holiday
You have to admire the teachers – they have balls!
They took on the Min of Ed over the Junior Cycle reforms and won hands down. Emboldened by this success, perhaps they feel they are ready to take on Enda’s Little Rottweiler ( Min Howlin) over the cumulated humiliations of Croke Park/Haddington Rd and now Landsdowne Rd “agreements”.
I am not sure how successful they will be, but as they say in this part of the world “fair focks to them”!
Connachtabu, we did not win regards the JC reform and to be honest the situation is a mess. Unions are telling us not to attend training regards the new JC. I teach English and which is one of the first subjects to change as a result of the reform. I taught first years this year who are now facing into second year where part of their work is to be assessed as part of their JC exam. It’s still left unclear. I really believe that the unions do more harm than good. The students are the ones who are suffering here.
@Niamh,
I beg to differ – the teachers and their unions won the JC battle hands down – firstly 100% internal assessment, then 40% and now a couple of extended essays. That must be classed as a victory! Whether there should have been a fight, I don’t know.
My daughters went through the New Zealand system called the NCEA (National Certificate of Education Achievement), in which there is about 50-50 split between internal assessment and external exam. Internal assessments are set by the Dept of Education but are marked by the teachers. Sample papers are send to the Dept for moderation. All internal assessments are returned to the student for feedback. At the end of the year even the external exam scripts are returned to the student. Students take 3 levels of NCEA in years equivalent to 3rd, 5th and 6th Year in the Irish system.
In the NZ NCEA, individual marks for an assessment or external exam or not given – the assessment is graded as “Not achieved”, “Achieved”, “Merit” and “Excellence”! The universities there were afraid that university entry standards might drop – they didn’t. Indeed, the students are better prepared for university given the new emphasis on project work and independent learning at school.
Your a rare hero Niamh.
Other chap..go back to your hole, using students to make them suffer for your own gain, upset over cuts at a crisis time….
no the end game regarding opposition to jc reform is a full reversal and repayment of all money’s lost by teachers over the downturn which is unrealistic and ridiculous.
Paul, would you please inform yourself on pay cuts before making sweeping statements such as “a full reversal and repayment.” I hardly think €2000 to be paid over 3 years covers the €500 or so that has been taken off me every month through PRSI, USC and pension levy.
niamh you are correct but the opposition to junior cert reform is being used as a bargaining chip to get the full reversal of cuts and pension levy by the teacher unions , if these got reversed the junior reform would happen.
Wow – what a surprise. More required.
teachers should launch a campaign against the department of education and the government on a daily basis from June until September and get the whole profession involved.
Unbelievable stuff. They get the whole summer off, as well as Christmas holidays, Easter holidays, February midterm, October midterm and the numerous sick days they’re all entitled to take a year, and they’re doing this on pay way above the levels paid for similar work in the private sector – and they have the audacity to say they’re working too much?
Any teacher who rejects this deal is essentially saying “I don’t care about the children missing out on a better education; I don’t care about the thousands of families struggling to pay USC to keep my in my job; All I care about is getting myself even more pay and even less hours, on top of the already extraordinarily high pay and low hours I already do”. The leaders of 1916 are turning in their graves as these people are a blight on the nation. Shame on them.
Would you listen to yourself!!! I personally know people who work in the private sector who have never once taken a pay cut and in fact received bonuses when the rest of us were being shafted!!! And again this is a pay restoration not a pay rise so read the facts!! And we are perfectly entitled to it and more!! Teachers are currently superintending state examinations and spend July marking them. The pay restoration equates to €7 a week for 3 years which is our money to begin with so get off your high horse and find another job if your not happy in the one your in, and get back to me when we do get a pay rise, before the next election hopefully!! :)
Mark,
If a private worker got a bonus, maybe in Google etc, then it was because that firm was making a profit, if they didnt they shut down.
a Public workers employer was broke, bailed out, why would they continue to support cushy jobs, makes no sense, job security is key. A USC cut is needed for everyone otherwise a Public Vs Private wage war will happen, it will drive big firms away, firms which pay for the private wages.
part time workers from September to June.
What sort of dung are you coming out with?
Where are the “comparable jobs” in the private sector?
Just because someone is entitled to take sick days doesn’t mean they do take them.
I’ve had 7 sick days in 9 years of teaching.
That’s 7 days out of 1512 days or 0.4%.
Teachers are paid to work the hours they currently work, the holidays issue is a moot point.
More days worked would cost the state more.
As far as I’m concerned, the government can jog on with their “extra” €2k over 3 years.
We’ll see €800 of that after tax, which we are now paying at about 60% when over the €33,800 threshold including the USC you harped on about.
I’d happily forego that “€2k” over three years for an improvement in conditions and less silly paperwork.
The paperwork is 1/5th of that needed in most nations in Europe, your not on 60% tax, you cant just add random tax rates together and say that’s your tax rate.
The government would prob love to improve conditions, only the unions demand insane wage increase for less work and with massive perks all the time.
David, you have to troll harder.
Paperwork is 1/5th?
Based on what?
Any euro we earn over €33,800 we end up paying a 60% marginal rate of tax when paye, prsi, USC and prd are deducted.
I’m not making that up.
More they get……
Personal wallets before children again.
Time to end job for life and introduce pay benchmarked to EU norms
Freedom before equality Stephen.
@ Stephen Kearon… are u alright mate? resignation is not the answer to this unpopular carry ons, after all if public servants will decide not to go to work tom. even just for a day, you bloody know what will happen… rather it’s a simple give & take mechanism, and the abolition of the pension levy is never too much to give back anyway.
Oh by the way, pension levy was a terminology used only to sustain our economy by taking someone’s hard earned money, but as a friendly advise pls dont resign once you find out more about it ok? good luck!
There’s seems to be a few FG/L trolls on here
have your say