Who could forget the “seismic shift”?

@ justin : “People seem to have short memories, we had out debt restructured in Feburary 2013.”

No we didn’t.

Is this going to be the narrative now if Greece get debt relief i.e. ‘shur didn’t we already get a debt restructuring deal’

Kenny getting a write down would be like the guy in the tv advert sitting in BBQ smoke that wont move,
No No i grand thanks no write down needed here you carry on, Don’t mind me.

“seismic shift “the only seismic shift Enda ever seen was when his friend ran off with his date at the local disco.

If the Greeks get a deal it could end up costing the Irish up to €2 billion as our part of the contribution. How will we pay it? The people who Pearce Doherty describes as “the rich”in Ireland will be caught once again if SF had their way. You know the people who are struggling to pay their mortgages and pay for everything that others seem to think they don’t have to pay for. Why should the irish taxpayer fund a state who don’t want to pay even the most basic of taxes? Corruption is everywhere in Greece. Syriza have done nothing but spoof it’s own people & EU.

Or the “game changer”.

The spoofing that Greece don’t pay taxes, is much like our own framework. First the corporate and political clan are assisted to avoid tax from the likes of the Accountancy Cabel the reset of Europe uses. Most Greek islandersand rural dwellers have their own wells and sewage. Many don’t even use electricity. So we are trying to impress Industrialized sized nation models instantaneously on a small economy an expecting instant results – ain’t going to happen overnight. Likewise if you expect to have a United States Of Europe then wealthier countries will always be supporting poorer states – as happens in the US constantly. Equal misery all-round. This is the direction Eurocrats are going in. Bust up a country, get the un-elected technocrats in and merge.

Germany has a short memory when it comes to debt write downs!!

@For Connolly, yes we did get our debt restructured. do you not remember people cursing Enda for putting our grand children in debt? Overall it was good for the country, as our payments are smaller, but over a longer period so there is more money for the day to day running of the country. Money that could have had to be got by imposing more austerity if the debt wasn’t restructured. http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/3ed71cc8-712d-11e2-9d5c-00144feab49a.html#axzz3fC3OpDRX

“It’s as Irish as not wanting to make a fuss” That ad is hilarious.

“Well I was crying earlier”

Let’s see most people in Ireland don’t even have a wage of € 420 a week and yet we are booming again according to government . our economy is flying , they tell us . yet Greece is the basket case they tell us . a country that is standing up to the EU and saying no more. They can withdraw €60 a day from ATM which equals €420 a week. Now a lot of people in Ireland are lucky to have €60 a week left after shopping and bills to take out of an ATM let alone a day. So how are we faring better than Greece.

@ ‘justin’: 30 billion worth of dodgy prom notes, of questionable legality and effectively an IOU between two Irish institutions, were converted into Sovereign debt on the eve of their legality been challenged in court.

There was no debt restructuring, no matter how hard you try to regurgitate the government spin on the matter.

Just incredible: The restructure was a trifle compared to the remaining 8 billion we pay in interest alone each year. We would have much more ability to re-energise the economy if that bill wasn’t as big as our education budget. There was no real negotiation going on, only compliance, and as expressed in the Dail, no write-down was even asked for, even after all the electioneering of not one more red cent. People cursed rightly too because at the time they were welding speculate commercial debt onto the ordinary citizens. I’m all for restructuring debt but like Germany experience in 1953, commercial write down is just as much a part of that. It’s ‘justin credible’ we have such Gobeen’s running the show.

Greece, the musical

I’ve got debts, they’re multiplying
And I’m losing control
But the bail outs you’re supplying,
They’re electrifying!

You better sign up and agree a plan,
Before the cash runs out on you.
You better sign up, or they’ll send a man,
To govern you from the EU.
Yes they will, yes that’s what they’re going to do.

It’s the Euro we want,
Don’t want the Drachma.
Must have sound money.

The Euro we want,
Don’t want the Drachma.
Ooh, ooh, ooh the Euro we need,
Oh yes indeed.

If you win an election
But the debts you can’t pay,
Austerity is the direction.
The only way.

You better sign up and agree a plan
To keep Brussels satisfied.
You better sign up, or you’ll quickly find
That your money supply has dried.
Are you sure? Yes your economy is fried.

It’s the Euro we want…

We borrowed the money that we loaned to Greece. We borrowed it at a lower interest rate than we are lending it to Greece. We are therefore making money from lending to Greece.

“You know the people who are struggling to pay their mortgages and pay for everything that others seem to think they don’t have to pay for. Why should the irish taxpayer fund a state who don’t want to pay even the most basic of taxes?”

- it doesn’t cost Irish taxpayers anything – we make money from it.

“Corruption is everywhere in Greece”

- Unlike Ireland eh?

I am sorry but how the hell does the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine know what’s on the table in relation to the talks with Greece. Has he a crystal ball or is he just talking sh..to. Really do they actually ever listen to themselves.

PD.why should the irish people have to pay bankers and bondholders debt??

Very good, Carmo.

Argh, keeps cutting out halfway before I finish!

Austerity for the Greeks will involve further tax hikes and cuts to services. Their economy can’t contract much more without imploding.

@martin I’m glad your not running the show! You don’t actually believe that delusional stuff you write? Maybe you would be better off in Greece where people don’t pay taxes & expect everybody else to pay the bills!

Kenny kicked the proverbial can down the road. we are paying 8000million a year in interest.yeah really great for the country.

If Greece get debt relief we will lose a relatively small amount of money. However, if we also got some debt relief that would dwarf these losses by some magnitude.

The issue of the money we loaned to Greece is a red herring.

What about the money owed to Spain and Italy, Is that a red Herring ?

i was crying a little bit earlier

The problem is that a private business debt was “upgraded” to a national sovereign debt. That goes against all market rules for the obvious reason.

Oh, and we paid 42% of the overall bailout cost so f*ck other countries; we’ve carried plenty.

I agree somewhat, but the economy would have collapsed if the government hadn’t underwritten the banks. The EU should have stepped in earlier but they didn’t; but it would probably have become sovereign debt anyway like it did everywhere else. I don’t see a better solution to be honest, despite all the populist rhetoric being spilled here daily. I actually think governments don’t have much power anymore beyond maintaining the status quo and I’m inclined to think that under the circumstances, Fianna Fail and Fine Gael couldn’t have done much better. Now you can call me crazy and a blueshirt or whatever, but I’m not seeing an alternative. I’m not saying it’s a good thing, but I’m trying to be honest. I don’t think we could have done like Iceland, I honestly think if we had went back to the punt we would be up crap creek right now and for the foreseeable future.
Now I am trying to help create a dialogue here beyond the same old clichés. I’d rather be interesting and wrong than boring and right, that’s democracy too, and since its inconsequential what is said here, forgive me that trespass.

The Irish and Greece debt problems are not the same. The Greece problems are a culmination of years and years of bad governance, while We done it in one night with the bank guarantee

Listen, I can have a conversation without it degenerating into infantile name calling; that’s not to say that I don’t give as good as I get when that happens but generally I far prefer a civil conversation than a shouting match with stupid generalisations like “blueshirts” and “shinners” and “looney left” being bandied around.

I agree; we could never have taken the same approach as Iceland, regardless of what populists would tell you. We are a member of the EU since 1973, Iceland was not and has never been. A procedure was being followed; a procedure of austerity which has been largely admitted by those who enforced it at the time as the wrong road to have taken.

It’s hard to say what would have happened if we had left the EU; realistically if we reintroduced the punt it would have been vastly devalued. Living standards would have plummeted but in saying that prices would also; we’ve always relied on tourism and we could have become a more popular destination but honestly, who knows? We rely heavily on FDI; foreign multinationals like stability and general certainty. The introduction of the Punt Nua would be neither of those things. Realistically, did we take the safe road? Certainly.

In terms of FG; if they were going to follow the road that the Troika dictated to Fianna Fail they should have said so straight up. However, if they had done that they wouldn’t have won in the landslide that they did. Also, they didn’t even ask for a writedown; Greece has had a 50% writedown in 2011. Our muppets didn’t even the balls to ask, they just complied after telling us they’d do the opposite.

The conversion of the promissory note to sovereign debt was their greatest sin. We can’t undo that now. Theses idiots shackled our future generation with debt that was never theirs to be slapped on the back and told that they’re great fellas by an undemocratic EU that, frankly, through the like of Jean-Claude Junker have shown nothing but contempt for democratic process.

We need to act on this. Why are people never elected by anyone in positions of such power, dictating to the citizens of supposedly democratic countries? This has to change.

Vin as Syriza are finding out, saying one thing before elections and getting others to agree when elected are two very different things.
Practically all of your post I agree 100% with but what most people don’t seem to understand is that it is the people of other European countries that are owed the money by the bailed out countries. That’s what the bailout was, the same as the Irish Government put itself on the hook for bank debt (wrongly) Fellow European countries put themselves on the hook for the money used to bailout Greece, Ireland, etc.

Some very fair points made, Tom. However, it doesn’t address the amount if the cost of the overall bailout that Ireland has borne. Essentially EVERY country in the EU, including Germany and France, was adversely affected by the global economic downturn. The cost borne by Ireland has been too much; how can a country with the population of less that 1% of the EU bear 42% of the overall bailout? I’ll answer my own question: by electing hacks who aren’t capable of negotiation.

Vin my point is that people arguing that Greek and Irish debt are the same are wrong.
Irish debt was foolishly brought about by trying to protect against contagion, with hindsight we can all see the government should never should have guaranteed the banks.
Throwing our lot (our arguments) in with Greece does us a real injustice.
Our debt (the bank bailout % of it) can and should still be highlighted and argued as a total injustice to the Irish people.
Where as the Greek debt is just that, 100% Greek government debt.
I think they should only be cut a deal if there is going to be genuine reform in their country.
Where is the social justice in asking poorer eastern european countries to support a deal for Greeks, who have a higher standard of living than them ?

There is no social justice it than, any more than there is any social social justice in having us pay 42% of the overall cost.
You’re 100% correct in relation to our debt; it was a result of stupidity, fearful and reactionary policies and inflexibility. That doesn’t mean that we should bear the cost that we have borne.

DOB got €600M write down on INM, Siteserve and Topaz. Please do some research before you claim he paid all his debts. He also still has some debt outstanding that relates to his Anglo Irish Loans.

It was money right !

In ’53 Germany had 50% of debts written off with the remainder paid off over 30yrs. These debts included the default after ww1. Germany are standing in our greenhouse throwing stones.

It’s not the same, Germany was fined and had large parts of its industry and land confiscation. It was one of the causes of WW2.

Germany are in our greenhouse throwing stones.

Im keeping that!

little jim, Greece had a write down of €100billion but failed to capitalise on this with real reform

George Stagg, Greece was involved in the London 1953 agreement.
What do you base your claim on or why, Could it be that it supports the Greek victim role
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_External_Debts

Tom,
Your question about “who pays?” is best answered by looking at who is bearing the risk?
You might reconsider the difference between commercial and sovereign debt.

The ordinary people of Europe are bearing the risk as the vast majority of Greek debt became the sovereign debt of European Government when they bailed out the Greeks the last time……………………. Did you miss all that Paul

Paul, the referendum actually means nothing, as the deal they were voting on was taken off the table before the referendum. Greece will probably get a restructure of their debt like we did in 2013

I didn’t Tom,
I just observed that Syriza is not a Government Party that could accept that transfer of debt.
If they don’t get a write down, they’re out.
They’ll swap long term pain for short term agony.

You must have missed it because you are the one talking about commercial debt, when it is the people of Europe through their governments bailing out Greece the last time that are on the hook for most of the debt.

And what nonsense are you talking about they wouldn’t accept the transfer of debt ?
The money owed by Greece is money borrowed by the Greek government.
The Greek banks are in trouble as a result of the Government borrowings, Exactly THE OPPOSITE as in Ireland.
You clearly lack any actual understanding of the situation.

I actually love it when you get red thumbs as a reply but not any contradiction of what you said/
So it doesn’t suit peoples own cosy narrative of events, Bah the easiest way to deal with this……. red thumb

Yes Tom.
You love it.

Paul, stick to articles that don’t require an actual knowledge of what you are commenting on, that way you can make nice little comments that accrue the mighty green thumbs you crave, without showing your total ignorance on the subject.

Good luck with that job in Greece, Tom.

Ah come on Tom. You are being intentionally obtuse.
The sovereign debt that Greece now owes to the European creditor states was largely former banking debt that was nationalised as part of various gun to the head deals with Greece from 2008 to 2012.
The master stroke was then to transfer this banking debt to other EU nations so that in the event of (inevitable) default, it is the people of Europe who are hit rather than the banks who should have been let fail in the first place.
So yes, now the debt is sovereign but it was allowed to get so huge in order to allow banks be propped up and risk be transferred to taxpayers rather than investors.

John doe “The sovereign debt that Greece now owes to the European creditor states was largely former banking debt that was nationalised as part of various gun to the head deals with Greece from 2008 to 2012″ That’s simply not true, you are mixing Greece with Ireland. Greeks banks are in trouble because of Governments debts, not the other way around (as was the case in Ireland)

Tom,

Greece’s debt before their various bailouts was owed mainly to French and German banks. It is now largely owed to the people of Europe and the IMF (private debt bailout no1)

€89 billion of the money they now owe went directly to become liquidity in Greek banks (private debt bailout no2)

While plenty of their borrowed billions also went to pay wages etc you cannot deny that what is going on here is private debt being transferred to citizens both within Greece and across Europe.

Tom, this is the overview on the wiki page about the crisis in 2008,

“The present crisis in Greece has been attributed to the 1999 introduction of the euro as a common currency, which reduced trade costs among the Eurozone countries, increasing overall trade volume. However, labor costs increased more in peripheral countries such as Greece relative to core countries such as Germany, making Greek exports less competitive. As a result, Greece saw its trade deficit rise significantly.[13]

A trade deficit means that a country is consuming more than its income, which requires borrowing from other countries. Both the Greek trade deficit and budget deficit rose from below 5% of GDP (a measure of the size of the economy) in 1999 to peak around 15% of GDP in the 2008–2009 periods.[14] As the Great Recession that began in the U.S. in 2007–2009 spread to Europe, the flow of funds from the European core countries to the periphery began to dry up. Reports in 2009 of fiscal mismanagement and deception increased borrowing costs; the combination meant Greece could no longer borrow to finance its trade and budget deficits.”

After reading the fist paragraph, do you not find it strange that this would have not been foreseen with the introduction of the euro? I highly doubt it. They didn’t foresee that Greece, a major hub for shipping, would have its exports made less competitive by the introduction of a single currency???? If you believe that you’ll believe anything.

If you refer to littleone’s post above this refers to parts of the second paragraph.

Seriously though, your honest opinion is that the Greeks got themselves into this situation and no one else had set them up to fail in such a monumental way?? If that is your opinion that seems beyond bizarre to me.

What’s bizarre is that you ignore so much of Greece’s own problems, where they stem from. This is from the same wiki page you quoted
“Another persistent problem Greece has suffered in recent decades is the government’s tax income. Each year it has been below the expected level. In 2010, the estimated tax evasion costs for the Greek government amounted to well over $20 billion.[35] The latest figures from 2013, also show that the State only collected less than half of the revenues due 2012, with the remaining tax owings being accepted to be paid by a delayed payment schedule.[36]

As of 2012, tax evasion was widespread, and according to Transparency International’s Corruption Perception Index, Greece, with a score of 36/100, ranked as the most corrupt country in the EU.[37][38] One of the conditions of the bailout was implementation of an anti-corruption strategy

So you’re overlooking the transfer of commercial to sovereign debt Tom?

John doe, The Greeks (government) borrowed the money from the money markets as most governments do and yes it has now been mostly transferred to ordinary people through the bailout. The initial Greek debt was sovereign debt, unlike the irish bank debt that was then made sovereign.
When you talk about the borrowed billions going to pay wages etc, that is what a deficit is, The gap between what a country takes in tax and spends. The Greek debt is a direct result of overspending for decades, brought to a head because of the 2008 financial crash

Paul this debate is more at your level
http://thedailyedge.thejournal.ie/fry-2202083-Jul2015/

A correction isn’t really a debate, is it Tom?

Paul go on then, tell me the name of any of these Greek commercial entities they have had their debts taken on by the Greek government

If you are going to mention Greek banks, the reason they are in trouble is because there is a run on them because the Greek nation is bankrupt, They’re going down with the rest of the country, not bringing it down as you are implying

Now if you’ll forgive me, I have to go do some work, earn some money, pay some tax so bertie, Brian, enda & gerry can have have their pension increased and I have to make my contribution towards social welfare recipients

I would have thought your working hours were restricted by child protection legislation.
I would doubt you could earn enough to pay tax.

Guff and bull*hit but no back up to any of your nonsense claims. Hot air Paul, hot air

Mickey that was the 1st point of his “1st stage” how can you say it has nothing to do with the point being made when it was a direct quote of his point ??????????
and his stages/points didn’t get any more accurate

Sorry, I misunderstood your bad grammar.

Its also quite ironic and funny that you’re probably the one red thumbing my comment after making such a big ordeal about it somewhere else here, lol.

Fg /lab do the classic lick up kick down. the economy of the rich was saved by butchering the weakest sections of our society who will not be part of any blueshirt recovery

wasn’t he the dad in the commitments.

did he print counterfeit £20 in Gardiner St

Hi MK76 http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/ireland Forget about Greece. What the EU and our government who you seem to love are not telling you is that Ireland’s debt is unsustainable. We are currently 213 billion in the red. Ireland only has around 900,00 people paying substantial levels of tax. This equates to a quarter of a million euro burden on each of these (includes myself). In the past national debt levels were sustainable due to inflation reducing the value of borrowings twenty years forward. However the ECB target is to contain inflation to benefit larger EU economies. With very low inflation this will no longer be the case. Our servicing of debt will become unmanageable. Our politicians have taken on the banking debt and then failed to get a debt write down and this will ultimately lead to us defaulting. We will be looking at a quarter of a trillion euro debt in six/seven years and no inflation to mitigate it. Can you explain how our politicians can avoid default without a write down ?

Yeah MK76, unemployment is falling, falling up the gangways of planes and ferries.

Shinners… Shinners everywhere.

Cal they have no basic understanding of the debt. They imagine a stroke of the pen and it disappears or doesn’t affect ordinary people in other countries. Italy (The Italian people) are owed more than the IMF, Spain more than €25 billion, the big bad German people nearer €60 billion and so on. The effect of their last bailout was that other ordinary European citizens bailed them out through their governments taking on over 90% of the Greek debt. Go tell the Spanish people to write off their €25 Billion because Greece voted so

But it seems Tom, that logic seems to have deserted the creditors. No matter what bad practices the Greeks got up to previously are all water under the bridge now, the simple fact is that nobody will get their money back if Greece is not allowed to prosper. Yes, they will have to mend their ways but they have to be given room to breathe or they will suffocate and everybody will be losers. How will the Spanish people get their E25bn then?

Martin your comment “Greek bailout money is going to pay German and French bankers and speculators” shows you don’t know what you are talking about. Sovereign Governments within the EU bailed out Greece not speculators.
As for “No matter what bad practices the Greeks got up to previously are all water under the bridge now,”
Why so ? they have not reformed their core issues of corruption and tax collection issues over the 6 or 7 years. Yes they’ve cut pensions etc but not tackled the real issues.
Were you listening to the Irish lady on Joe Duffy yesterday who lived in Greece for over 30yrs, regardless what you want civil servants in Greece to do, the 1st thing you have to do is pay a bribe.
As for how will the Spanish get their €25 billion, personally I don’t think the answer is to give them more when all they do is play the victim, no sign of any responsibility for the mess that they have got themselves in to.

Do you think the French, German, Spanish, Italian, etc. governments shouldn’t get the best deal for their people on the money owed to them ? Or should they simply say, awh look we know you had a write down of €100 billion on GREEK GOVERNMENT DEBT (not speculator or bank) but all the money we lent you at that time, don’t worry about it. You keep doing what you’ve been doing and if it does get better for you give us some of it back. Greece like many western countries are paying the price for living beyond their means for many years. The USA is still doing it, they owe over 18 trillion dollars. http://www.usdebtclock.org/
I think it is unfair to make villains out of Germans etc, who try and keep deficits at sustainable levels.
It’s like living on your credit card, at some stage reality bites