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Debating prostitution? Why not listen to sex workers for once?

In the debate over criminalisation, sex workers’ voices are all too often drowned out.

THE IRISH GOVERNMENT plans to criminalise the buyers of sex in legislation expected to be published later this year. Why? To stop trafficking and protect sex workers by putting them out of a job, politicians say. But the proposed bill terrifies me as a sex worker, as it ignores evidence that criminalisation doesn’t work and, more importantly, ignores our voices.

In 2012 and 2013, when the government had its consultation on prostitution, it heard from NGOs, academics and trade unions. They initially refused to let sex workers into the consultation until the Sex Workers Alliance Ireland pressured the government to hear their voices.

Sex workers told the committee that they did not want this law criminalising clients, but their voices were drowned out by people and groups who will not be affected by this legislative change. How can we make legislation without actually consulting and listening to the very people who will be affected by it?

Opinions ignored

Sex workers’ voices often get drowned out by NGOs, because in their eyes we are not representative. According to research done by Queen’s University on prostitution in Northern Ireland, however, 98% of sex workers didn’t want to see the introduction of legislation criminalising sex there. If that’s not representative, then I’m not sure what is.

The evidence from Sweden, where criminalisation was introduced in 1999, shows that that model isn’t working – the UN, UNAIDS, the World Health Organisation (WHO) and the Lancet Journal are all inclined to agree. There’s no proof of less sex buying and no statistics on sex trafficking victims before the law was introduced, so there’s no way of knowing if the number of victims has decreased.

Working conditions

But worst of all, sex workers experience worse work conditions and feel more stigmatised as a result of criminalisation. The Swedish government, however, sees this as a positive effect.

If the Swedish model doesn’t work, then what does? The UN, UNAIDS, WHO and the Lancet Journal all hold up decriminalisation as the best legal framework for sex work.

Decriminalisation and legalisation are two different things. Legalisation is when you legalise sex work as a commercial activity, but introduce extra regulation because it’s sex work. This is what we see in Holland and Germany.

Decriminalisation removes laws on sex work from criminal law to civil and labour law. It recognises sex work as work. We see this kind of legislation in New Zealand and New South Wales, Australia.

And does decriminalisation work? Yes it does. Sex workers and police have a better relationship, and working conditions have improved. In New Zealand, they haven’t had one sex trafficking case since they introduced the law. And in New South Wales, Australia outreach services found it easier to identify and help vulnerable people in the industry as a result of decriminalisation.

Safety implications

Looking at Ireland, I’m concerned about where we are heading in regards to sex workers’ rights. If two sex workers are found working from the same premises, this is considered a brothel and against the law.

Sex workers find their workplaces being raided throughout the country, because they want to work with their colleagues for safety reasons. In one recent case, after a garda raid of a brothel, an officer is alleged to have come back to have “consensual” sex with one of the sex workers targeted by the raid.

The brothel law will not be repealed under the new legislation and engaging in sex work will not be decriminalised, so brothel raids will still happen.

Sex Workers Alliance Ireland met with Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald in November about our concerns. We told her sex workers would be less safe and experience more violence if this new law is introduced. Her response? It’s more important to send “a message” that the purchase of sex is unacceptable.

If Ireland is to improve sex workers’ rights, we need to take a human-rights based approach. We need to talk to sex workers and create an evidence-based decriminalisation model that values our safety.

Catriona is an independent sex worker who has been involved with the Sex Workers’ Alliance Ireland since 2013. Over the past week, she has curated the @Ireland Twitter account. You can follow her personal Twitter account here

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    Mute Porter Paddy
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    May 7th 2018, 8:53 AM

    I sometimes wish I had the option of living in the family home in Dublin and not having to give a greedy landlord €800 a month.

    677
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    Mute Declan Byrne
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    May 7th 2018, 9:06 AM

    @Porter Paddy: ever think the landlord may have a big mortgage ? And said landlord has to pay a big load of tax on rent ? So the greedy landlord is now making very little of any money unless a large corporate landlord who pays no tax. So where is the greed? Is it the banks who want to charge huge interest rate? The government wants the tax or the majority of landlords who own one or two houses and just getting bye?

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    Mute Porter Paddy
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    May 7th 2018, 9:25 AM

    @Declan Byrne: I don’t care about the landlord, I only care about myself and what comes out of my wages every month. Dublin is never going to be my long term plan anyway.

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    Mute Sean Conway
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    May 7th 2018, 9:31 AM

    @Declan Byrne: Nobody asked the ‘landlord’ to get a big mortgage in the first place. landlords so called entrepreurial skills is to get someone else into debt while they get the gravy and their mortgage paid by some unfortunate. chancers more like.

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    Mute Is Mise jay
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    May 7th 2018, 9:42 AM

    @Sean Conway: without landlords the country would be in a worse state than it is now second of all the landlords do not decide the price of rent the market does they could put rent on a house in dublin any price they like but at the end of the day itll rent or not rent based on what the market values that house at currently .. simple economics

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    Mute Bat Daly
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    May 7th 2018, 9:42 AM

    @Declan Byrne:
    The rental sector has been an area where people thought by buying a property, they could earn a quick buck on the backs of someone else.
    And when they were rubbing their hands when their investment property’s value went through the roof, they didn’t give a fiddlers about the downstream effects on the author.
    So yes, by and large, landlords are greedy because they expect a lot for very little effort and don’t care about anyone else.

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    Mute Declan Byrne
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    May 7th 2018, 9:53 AM

    @Porter Paddy: Me Feinn maybe that is a part of the problem too.

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    Mute Declan Byrne
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    May 7th 2018, 10:00 AM

    @Bat Daly: there is investors who had a bit of money looking for pension alternative or a house for the kids which is fair enough , then there is the accidental landlord who is the person who bought at height of boom most likely then had to move for one reason or another but couldn’t sell so had to rent out until breaking even and selling ( caught between rock and a hard place most likely normal joe soap). Then we have the elephant in the room the large corporate with 20 to 30k units for rent . You can’t tar all landlords with the same brush.

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    Mute B9xiRspG
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    May 7th 2018, 10:21 AM

    @Sean Conway: Sean, no one is forcing you to rent go get a mortgage or stay at home…..

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    Mute Roy Dowling
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    May 7th 2018, 10:21 AM

    @Porter Paddy: you don’t care about the landlord. why should your landlord care about you?.

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    Mute B9xiRspG
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    May 7th 2018, 10:24 AM

    @Porter Paddy: paddy, buy your own place, you wouldn’t have to pay a landlord, problem sorted!

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    Mute Pebbles
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    May 7th 2018, 10:38 AM

    @Declan Byrne: I became an accidental landlord about 6 years ago. Finally sold the apartment last week. And I have to say it’s a relief that it’s gone. I was a fair landlord, didn’t over charge on rent. Always fixed any problems as soon as I could. But every October revenue always came knocking looking for their share. I never made any money on it after paying the mortgage, LPT, management fees (that increased 25% on 2017) etc. Maybe I was doing something wrong not making money that people say landlords make.

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    Mute Martin
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    May 7th 2018, 10:43 AM

    @B9xiRspG: Did somebody help you with this ingenious comment or is that your genuine best? Are you the government advisor by chance

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    Mute Tom Dunne
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    May 7th 2018, 10:45 AM

    @Declan Byrne: can one “get bye”

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    Mute Bat Daly
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    May 7th 2018, 10:57 AM

    @Declan Byrne: I don’t want to tar everyone with same brush. You are right about the person with the single property as a. Pension and accidental landlords but there are far too many landlords with multiple properties who all selfishly want one thing; overheated property market where their portfolio becomes worth millions and drive up the price they get for rent. They are as bad for the economy as the American vultures funds renting our land back to us.

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    Mute Charles McCarthy
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    May 7th 2018, 10:59 AM

    @Sean Conway: Don’t be worrying your head too much about landlords. They are exiting the market en masse so that will solve all your problems. Then you can sit tight and wait for leo the lion to sort the issue. Your grasp of the economics of this issue like a lot more posting here is astounding.

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    Mute Martin
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    May 7th 2018, 11:06 AM

    @Declan Byrne: I didn’t force the landlord to take on a massive mortgage, have you? Family home is what it should be, an affordable home, not some speculative asset. If they want to speculate, there are company shares and stock, bitcoin and gold. It’s not anybody’s problem that some landlords decided to buy at the height of the market rate and then panic whilst trying recoup any potential loses or drive the cost even higher. Unfortunately, it’s the young and the little people that are paying for their greed and speculations

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    Mute Charles McCarthy
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    May 7th 2018, 11:06 AM

    @Pebbles: I’m currently doing the same, so I don’t have the headache that it is. The last thing I need is to be renting it to the likes of paddy and bat. Two clowns that expect you and me to house them at a loss. Best of luck with your future and enjoy the freedom from the revenue bucks. Best of luck paddy and bat, maybe ye could share a flat together akin to steptoe and son, or do a bit a research on what the actual problem is.

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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    May 7th 2018, 11:16 AM

    @Bat Daly: this talk of a good landlord who makes a loss versus bad ones that don’t is nonsense. My family own multiple properties and just want a steady reliable income. They bought property that was in a terrible state with accountant book literally holding up the floor. Redeveloped it and paid 17% mortgage. Tax of rental income has just gone up and up and allowance have gone down and down. Over the years there have been massive expenses like a new roof. We got all the properties externally insulated and replaced all the windows. Have tenants with us over 20 years and kept the rent low for them. These are all good things for tenants and the government repay us by saying when that person moves out we have to offer the same rent to the new tenant. Won’t invest in the properties again now

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    Mute Dow Dubrov
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    May 7th 2018, 11:29 AM

    @Pebbles: When you say you never made a profit, did you include the reduction in your outstanding mortgage amount or any increase in value of your property? I suspect not

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    Mute Michael Powell
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    May 7th 2018, 11:39 AM

    @Dow Dubrov: people act as if land lords owe them something because they may or may not make a profit. The renter is also benefiting.

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    Mute P.J. Nolan
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    May 7th 2018, 11:39 AM

    @Dow Dubrov:
    Ever heard of interest only loans?

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    Mute Bat Daly
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    May 7th 2018, 12:14 PM

    @Kal Ipers:
    Like I said, there is nothing wrong with what your.family is doing and it is tough these to get involved in the rental industry.
    But unfortunately for years, people were making a fortune tax free from renting out property’s and literally not doing a days work.
    They scavenged off people who were working.

    How is that fair and equitable?

    I have relatives doing exactly the same as your family telling me that I was a fool employing people and working too hard trying to keep my business afloat and that I should get involved in the property market because ” you can’t lose”.
    The problem is everyone wants to be a landlord and no one wants to work for a living.

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    Mute ROG Reacts
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    May 7th 2018, 12:55 PM

    @Porter Paddy: cuclhie?

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    Mute Sean Conway
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    May 7th 2018, 1:06 PM

    @Is Mise jay: house blockers the lot of them.

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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    May 7th 2018, 1:45 PM

    @Bat Daly: who the hell is getting rent tax free? Anyone doing that is simply a criminal. I really don’t care who you think is a worthy landlord the laws punish all landlords.

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    Mute Earth Traveller
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    May 7th 2018, 1:48 PM

    @Porter Paddy: “I only care about myself”. That is a lot of the problem on all sides.

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    Mute Sean Conway
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    May 7th 2018, 3:05 PM

    @B9xiRspG: L People buying up houses to rent for their personal gain are helping no one

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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    May 7th 2018, 3:08 PM

    @Sean Conway: they are providing a service that otherwise wouldn’t exist. Rented property has a better higher occupancy rate better utilizing existing housing stock. They are helping everyone by doing this.

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    Mute Sean Conway
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    May 7th 2018, 6:52 PM

    @Kal Ipers: It’s doing two things. stopping people from getting on the property ladder. and pushing up the price.

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    Mute Pebbles
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    May 7th 2018, 7:23 PM

    @Dow Dubrov: maybe I should have fired the accountant then!! He did my yearly figures and I paid revenue.

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    Mute Pebbles
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    May 7th 2018, 7:27 PM

    @Charles McCarthy: same to you. Anyone I know who has a second property, they are trying their best to get out of the rental market. It’s not worth the hassle and stress in trying to keep your property in tip top of condition before it goes on the market.

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    Mute Dow Dubrov
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    May 7th 2018, 8:36 PM

    @Pebbles: No. You should have sold it. If the rent is not enough to cover the mortgage after tax you’ve bought the wrong property and should reassess. Even those who bought at the peak are very likely to have trackers and still able to turn a profit.

    On the flipside full mortgage interest should be allowable as an expense and landlords should be able to evict non paying tenants in a month.

    The real risk to a landlord is finding a decent tenant. If you can get over that hurdle, the return is very good given the work involved

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    Mute Pebbles
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    May 8th 2018, 11:32 AM

    @Dow Dubrov: I did sell it. The rent did cover the mortgage but revenue don’t care about that. They still want 50% in tax every year. Add in the insurance, lpt, management fees and whatever else there’s to pay there’s nothing left. I was very fortunate to have 3 sets of amazing tenants so I knew it was going to be well looked after.

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    Mute mur
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    May 14th 2018, 12:54 PM

    @Porter Paddy:
    the govt is the root cause of housing shortages . it was they who lined the pockets of investors through nama first, through gigantic bank property write downs , forced local authorities with no money at the height of the crash to over pay banks for local properties above the going market rates .
    alan Kelly of labour propsed modular housing at a cost of 125000 euro a unit but coveney within weeks of taking the portfolio had increased the cost to 250000 euro . he insisted on cutting out local providers and set a target of a company having to have a 40 million turnover to tender. the winning company from NI then offered the houses for increased price and smaller footage than they supplied to purchasers in the north. now they are proposing PPP to finance build homes. the uk has shown that building under ppp plans cost the state 5/10 times more ad infinitum than actually borrowing the millions ( at lowest interest rates ever from ecb ) and setting up a national house building co op through local authorities . if set up right this could make enough capital to be self funding for future housing needs.
    but there are too many developers and cronies to be serviced and as marie Antoinette said about the starving ” let them eat cake ” is their attitude to SUSTAINABLE social housing. PAY ACCORDING TO YOUR MEANS .

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    Mute James O'Grady
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    May 7th 2018, 9:02 AM

    One word – houseshare

    It’s not ideal but you should be looking at this option instead of whinging on the Journal

    491
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    Mute Paul Keane
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    May 7th 2018, 9:29 AM

    @James O’Grady: She already is house sharing. She’s a young adult looking for her own home, it’s clear from the article that being stuck amongst a number of others isn’t suitable! Clear sign that the world’s gone mad, when modern day tenement housing is considered an option people should be exploring!

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    Mute Frank Dubogovik
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    May 7th 2018, 10:11 AM

    @James O’Grady: that’s all I took from the article …whingefest.

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    Mute Skybloo
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    May 7th 2018, 11:13 AM

    @Frank Dubogovik:
    Indeed … as a single person – is she expecting to get a 2 bed apartment for 400 a month even in this scheme?? She’s comparing her plight to not being able to afford a 2 bed apartment @ 1600e a month in Dublin city. These first world problems of this entitled generation is undermining the real issues of combined income families being pushed out of properties due to extortionate prices or being unable to rent or access affordable housing on commuter belts even. Otherwise houseshare or be grateful for the family home like previous generations before you.

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    Mute Michael Powell
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    May 7th 2018, 11:16 AM

    @Paul Keane: Christ almighty, she’s not living in a tenement. Is their a reason she can’t save for a home of her own while living in her parents. Wow wouldnt it be great if we could all pay 400e for a home. Typical sponger attitude

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    Mute Martin
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    May 7th 2018, 11:29 AM

    @James O’Grady: That is of course how problems get solved, by looking away and not whinging…

    Like If a car needs new oil, just look away and stop whinging, it will somehow fix itself!!!
    Those 200 likes must be from all electric car owners…

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    Mute Paul Keane
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    May 7th 2018, 11:32 AM

    @Michael Powell: Where did I state she was living in a tenement? Would love to be in a position where I paid 400 euro per month myself but paying significantly more at present however, the author may not be in a position to pay more. The article gives sight to a different model, as a country, and considering the crisis at present, what have we to lose?

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    Mute Frank Dubogovik
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    May 7th 2018, 11:34 AM

    @Skybloo: alas, gratitude is a thing of the past. everyone wants a 2 bed apartment 10minutes from work with free parking

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    Mute ROG Reacts
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    May 7th 2018, 12:56 PM

    @Frank Dubogovik: Says more about you than the article.

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    Mute alkill
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    May 7th 2018, 3:27 PM

    @Frank Dubogovik:
    Shhhhhhhh be quiet if you have nothing constructive to add

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    Mute Permo Dermo
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    May 7th 2018, 7:23 PM

    @James O’Grady: Bullyseye! brilliant piece of advice sir.

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    Mute Peter Cavey
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    May 7th 2018, 9:18 AM

    All I read in that article are excuses for living at home. Rent a room in a house, move further outside Dublin or into Kildare, meath or Wicklow, make an effort.. living with mummy and daddy at 27. Move out and cop on.

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    May 7th 2018, 10:17 AM

    @Peter Cavey: Exactly. 30k a year is roughly 2100 per month after tax. So share a 2 bedroom apartment costs 800 per month or 40% of income. Where is the issue?

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    Mute Peter Cavey
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    May 7th 2018, 10:53 AM

    @Dave Doyle: I know. But I think mummy and daddy are part of the problem. When I finished college and started working, I was 23/24 – my parents told me it was time for me to move on and I had to move out and learn to stand on my own 2 feet. And I did and I thank them for it. I didn’t have much money but I made it work.

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    Mute prop joe
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    May 7th 2018, 12:59 PM

    @Peter Cavey: why? renting with a punch of weirdos in house share is he’ll on earth. If you are from Dublin living in Kildare is a massive step backwards. Immigrate give two fingers to the government, robbing young people is all our government knows what to do.

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    Mute Ciarān
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    May 7th 2018, 1:21 PM

    @prop joe: Who says you have to share with weirdos?

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    Mute P.J. Nolan
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    May 7th 2018, 2:43 PM

    @Ciarān:
    Ah now, they are the best craic!!!

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    Mute prop joe
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    May 7th 2018, 4:27 PM

    @Ciarān: living in a house share with random people is no way to live. Living with relatives or parents while not ideal, would be better than living with random people.

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    Mute Ted Murray
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    May 7th 2018, 5:54 PM

    @Peter Cavey: ___ Your parents telling you to clear off hasn’t made you bitter much, has it?

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    Mute Peter Cavey
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    May 7th 2018, 9:32 PM

    @Ted Murray: sorry Troll. I’m not taking the bait!

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    Mute Christina Lambert
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    May 7th 2018, 10:00 PM

    @Peter Cavey: I agree, I would love to buy and move back to we’re my family home is but that is not An option. Move further away and stop giving out.

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    Mute Louise Coyne
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    May 8th 2018, 11:43 AM

    @Dave Doyle: All of us who aren’t from Dublin or the commuter belt have to do it, and still manage to have a decent life. If you want independence you’ll pay for it.

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    Mute Pauline Gallagher
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    May 8th 2018, 8:47 PM

    @Peter Cavey: Who cares what you did or where you live? Who cares where anyone lives? Do you want me to give you a medal or are you all set?

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    Mute Joe Jackson
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    May 7th 2018, 9:15 AM

    The youth of today like to piss and moan about everything. What person in their mid 20s rents a 2 bed apartment alone?

    They house share… either with a partner or a couple of friends bringing the cost down significantly.

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    Mute Ciara Baines
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    May 7th 2018, 9:25 AM

    @Joe Jackson: Exactly. I’d like to think (hope) she’s paying rent at home so why not pay the same money out to a houseshare?

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    Mute Aaron
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    May 7th 2018, 9:50 AM

    @Joe Jackson: the reason the youth are moaning is because the older generation screwed the entire country up for us, bungled the economy, sent the housing market down the toilet and now tell us to grow up when we give out about it.

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    Mute Frank Dubogovik
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    May 7th 2018, 10:14 AM

    @Joe Jackson: the Celtic tiger instilled a sense of ‘ entitlement”…i believe it’s called ‘ snowflake’ in some circlrs

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    Mute Aaron
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    May 7th 2018, 10:16 AM

    @Frank Dubogovik: yeah it did, it’s instilled in the baby boomer generation who killed the Celtic tiger, said generation who will reap far More benefits from my tax than other generation before them

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    Mute Paul Keane
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    May 7th 2018, 10:53 AM

    @Frank Dubogovik: The so called “sense of entitlement” came from the parents inability to manage their kids expectations And not the Celtic Tiger. Through greed came a “sense of entitlement” for many parents and those of the older generation. Simply put, if a child has a sense of entitlement, it came from the parent(s)

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    Mute Keithy McKeitherson
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    May 7th 2018, 11:37 AM

    @Joe Jackson: to be fair, rents are very very high. Working class baby boomers could get a mortgage and house 30 years ago on one salary no bother. That’s not achievable now, for someone in similar field or even a middle class earner.

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    Mute Martin
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    May 7th 2018, 11:39 AM

    @Paul Keane: That’s golden, well put! made me actually laugh!

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    Mute Mike
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    May 7th 2018, 12:43 PM

    @Joe Jackson: Well said. The author must be saving a fortune living with her parents since she finished college. You don’t just walk out the door and into a 2-bed apartment in your mid 20s by yourself. You house share with 2, 3 or 4 others out in the suburbs if necessary. You move around the country if necessary. The article reeks of entitlement.

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    Mute Joe Jackson
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    May 7th 2018, 2:30 PM

    @Aaron: I am in my mid thirties. So not exactly the older generation. We managed to rent after college on graduate salaries in Dublin, save at the same time and buy a house after a few years (during the height of the price boom). Didn’t have the luxury of living rent free with our parents.

    So to read a postgraduate student complain about having to pay rent of more than 400e/month is a little annoying.

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    Mute Permo Dermo
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    May 7th 2018, 7:35 PM

    @Aaron: boo boo buddy. I was 35 before I could leave home with enough of a deposit to buy a home during the 1980′s. At least you have the prospect of a job and income thanks to my generation. Back then the only decent paying jobs were abroad in factories or building sites if you weren’t a rich college boy.

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    Mute Pauline Gallagher
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    May 8th 2018, 8:53 PM

    @Joe Jackson: Buy a house after a few years because you were getting a 100% mortgage that you didn’t need to save 20 or 30 grand for a deposit. As recently as 10 years ago you could get a mortgage simply by having a steady job and a bank account. You could also rent a 1 bed apartment for 100 per week in Louth, anyway. What has your personal circumstances and your ‘ I dont moan about anything, ever and always put up and shut up’ (which im sure is complete BS) attitude got to do with this story? Did you find the man handing out medals after you printed your comment? Hes on here somewhere.

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    Mute Chewey Bacca
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    May 7th 2018, 8:53 AM

    Hi Nicola,
    2 ceist
    #1 was sharing a house with 4,5, n others in drumcondra, rathmines ever an option for you?
    #2 whats the difference between this and social housing ?

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    Mute Rory J Leonard
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    May 7th 2018, 10:34 AM

    @Chewey Bacca:

    The Fair Rent Homes model is Social Housing, and the way the lady describes it, makes it sound so very workable….in theory.

    Such models are widespread and successful throughout Europe, and there should be no reasons why not in Ireland, as a means of solving chronic housing crisis, especially in our cities.

    Having 12 acres of State owned lands in her community is a dream starting point for any implementation of such a model.

    It’ll be interesting to observe how this plays out with local council. Does it accept millions from a private developer OR does it make the effort and try something new, along European Model lines, in increasing the social and affordable housing stock in its bailiwick?

    Good thought provoking article anyway, Nicola!

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    Mute Ciara Baines
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    May 7th 2018, 9:05 AM

    You don’t have to live with your parents. You choose to. If you really wanted to move out you could rent a room in a house.

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    Mute Pajo Mata
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    May 7th 2018, 9:20 AM

    @Ciara Baines: those really tolerant and accommodating parents/family. Imagine sharing everything you have with somebody who has an underlying resentment?

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    Mute Tom Kelly
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    May 7th 2018, 9:21 AM

    I’m from Donnybrook and now living in the North West.. if you can’t afford it, MOVE.

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    Mute J M Raw
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    May 7th 2018, 10:33 AM

    @Tom Kelly: what if she can’t find a job in her field in Donegal or wherever?

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    Mute P.J. Nolan
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    May 7th 2018, 11:01 AM

    @J M Raw:
    Commute, like the people who will pay for social housing.

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    Mute Bat Daly
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    May 7th 2018, 11:03 AM

    @J M Raw: Tom doesnt need to read your reply.
    He obviously knows it all and has life sorted.

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    Mute Gavin R
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    May 7th 2018, 9:11 AM

    I lived with my parents until I was 25, never once did it cross my mind to rent (dead money) and this was the times that mortgage payments could have been up to 30% higher than rental payment, I can’t understand why she dreams of renting if you work for a multinational why not look to own a property, looks to me more likely she doesn’t want to leave the close proximity to the city centre, take responaibility for your own future.

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    Mute Martin
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    May 7th 2018, 11:21 AM

    @Gavin R: And so she does and thinking about other young people on top of it. Just because things are certain way, doesn’t mean they should stay that way

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    Mute PaleoIreland
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    May 7th 2018, 10:23 AM

    I lost over a 100k in negative equity on a boom buy. I had to move out of the house 7 years ago becoming an accidental landlord and either lived with my parents or in cheap house shares so I could pay off the negative equity. At 39 I am finally back in the black and able to buy again because I scrimped and saved for years. I’m finding it hard to feel sorry for this 27 year old who fancies renting herself a 2 bed apartment within minutes of the city centre.

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    Mute Permo Dermo
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    May 7th 2018, 7:39 PM

    @PaleoIreland: well done! glad you managed to claw you way back out of that hole.

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    Mute Fidelma Costello
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    May 7th 2018, 8:53 AM

    How is this different than local authority housing. Is it that people on any income are eligible ?

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    Mute ƃuᴉʞ sᴉ uᴉoɔʇᴉq
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    May 7th 2018, 9:50 PM

    Cc

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    Mute Jeremy DeChad
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    May 7th 2018, 8:55 AM

    Very positive article. Great to see a very accomplished person making it happen for herself and others.

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    Mute Anne
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    May 7th 2018, 10:36 AM

    @Jeremy DeChad: nice to read a positive comment there…similar to what i was thinking. It’s hard to read the intolerance displayed in some of these comments. Not everything is black and white

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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    May 7th 2018, 10:44 AM

    @Jeremy DeChad: for a positive article it says a lot of negative things about others. It is derogatory towards a lot of people and pretty biased

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    Mute Michael Powell
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    May 7th 2018, 11:17 AM

    @Jeremy DeChad: accomplished ??? Living at home at 27

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    Mute Chipstix
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    May 7th 2018, 9:31 AM

    I shared apartments with 2 people and I’m thoroughly relieved the only people I have to share my living space with is the person I married and our offspring. House sharing with people comes with it’s own set of annoyances and perhaps the girl feels it’s better the devil you know Not everyone has friends in the same boat to live with. All out on your high horses, as usual.

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    Mute 6ljJQRRU
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    May 7th 2018, 9:52 AM

    @Chipstix: well said. Only when you share a house you realize how badly reared and lack of awareness most people have like not able to tidy up after themselves, never do any cleaning, leave food uncovered, never pay the bills etc etc.

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    Mute Anne
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    May 7th 2018, 10:37 AM

    @Chipstix: totally agree with you.

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    Mute Jane Alford
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    May 7th 2018, 9:40 AM

    Wait until you are over 60. Can’t get any mortgage. Can’t get any job. Forced to rent. At 27 you have hundreds of options.

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    Mute Chris Kirk
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    May 7th 2018, 9:17 AM

    Seems to me like another word for social housing, why would anyone want to dig their own foundations for a council house. If it were my kids I would tell them to get out in the world andnotbe hanging around in the expectation of one day having less rent to pay. Life is for living, but not this way gal.

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    Mute Caitriona Smith
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    May 7th 2018, 10:10 AM

    Very whiney of you and totally rubbish as well. I’m 26 and have lived in house shares for the last 8 years. I hope one day to afford my own place but for now I compromise because that’s what I can afford. Youre moanimg about having to live at home when you could clearly move out if you wanted to, you’re CHOOSING to live at home. Not everyone has that choice. Spoilt.

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    Mute Martin
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    May 7th 2018, 12:03 PM

    @Caitriona Smith: She’s choosing to live at home as Leo recommended himself, while saving for a deposit. But given that the average price of a home is 300k +, even on her reasonable salary is quite out of reach of many, as if you haven’t noticed yet, rent and house prices are spiralling higher and higher, year on year out!! Is there need to spell it S L O W f o r y o u ? ? God almighty

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    Mute Mike
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    May 7th 2018, 12:48 PM

    @Martin: Maybe she will meet someone and they will be able to afford to buy a house together. That’s generally the way things work when people grow up. Expecting to be able to buy a fine 300k gaff by yourself is a fanciful pipe dream no matter where in the country you’re living.

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    Mute Martin
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    May 7th 2018, 3:49 PM

    @Mike: Absolutely Mike, it’s true and always been the case. Though, long gone are the times when people could afford to provide as well save from one salary and couples are now reduced to buy shoebox sized properties for extortionate prices

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    Mute Adam Kelly
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    May 7th 2018, 9:33 AM

    I thought the dream was to buy a place, since when did the dream get downgraded to renting?

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    Mute B9xiRspG
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    May 7th 2018, 10:28 AM

    @Adam Kelly: because they don’t want the responsibility, rent and everything is the landlord problem. If they buy a house they wouldn’t be able to moan

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    Mute P.J. Nolan
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    May 7th 2018, 11:43 AM

    @Adam Kelly:
    It seems the dream is getting a council house….

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    Mute Mirabelle Stonegate
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    May 7th 2018, 3:12 PM

    @Adam Kelly: when owning became unattainable..

    there are only 2 ways i will ever own my own place – my parents back me, or they die (only child, no sharing inheritence).

    i’m 30, working a 40 hour week, barely affording rent and bills. i have a €50 a month “going out” budget, which is split between three meals out a month, no alcohol, to make it stretch. i don’t smoke, either. i’ve a consultant appointment coming up, which will cost €200.. my parents are having to pay that, because i don’t have the cash spare.. there will probably also be a procedure needed. all of this will be unpaid time off work, which further reduces my earnings..

    i earn less now with a degree, than i did 11 years ago as an undergrad, on a per-hour basis. i actually left the field i was qualified in, because of the stress i was suffering – doing enough work for 4 people, whilst being paid €10 per hour. now, i do the work of one person for the same money, so at least stress from the job is significantly reduced!

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    Mute Pauline Gallagher
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    May 8th 2018, 8:59 PM

    @Adam Kelly: Not everyone has the same dreams. Not everyone can get within a mile of the eligibility criteria for a mortgage. Nobody who has a roof over the heads should protest too much regardless of their circumstances, but by the same token, nobody should become to smug and complacent because they THINK they own the pile of bricks around them when it could all go down the pan for them tomorrow.

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    May 7th 2018, 9:08 AM

    What’s scary about all of this is, when you think of it, you’ll never be able to own your own home. You’re being “thought” out of ever owning one, accepting that you’ll only ever be renting all your life. Your working life, that is. Then what?

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    Mute Bobby Byrne
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    May 7th 2018, 9:27 AM

    @Dave Doyle: If young people ( without families) are smart they should stay with the folks and save. Property is going to drop again in this country like it did before.

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    Mute P.J. Nolan
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    May 7th 2018, 9:42 AM

    @Bobby Byrne:
    You are right, they will but when? And will you be able to get a mortgage when they do?
    A middle aged couple who in the early 2000′s rented the house I live in now, sold their house in 1999 and said they would wait for the inevitable crash to buy. They were right, the crash did happen but house prices did not fall to anywhere near 1999 levels.
    In fairness you are right about young people staying at home to save for a deposit if possible

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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    May 7th 2018, 9:51 AM

    @Bobby Byrne: In the normal course of events that would be the sensible option. But the whole housing and rental “market” is far beyond “normal”.
    People are being priced out of ever being able to afford a home of their own. It’s deliberate. With the way rents have gone and are going, you will never be able to save enough for a house deposit.
    People are being driven down the road of accepting the fact that renting property, be it house or apartment, is the only option. It looks like ordinary people are not to own a home at all. That’s being reserved for the rich who can afford it.
    Property, don’t call them homes, are an investment now. Corporations, Vultures, own the properties, rent them for investment purposes, control their profits by way of rent and lease. Ok while you are working and earning. But you’ll never actually own anything. And when you stop working and pension you have worked for will just about cover a place in a granny farm, where the quicker you die off, the better.
    This is the neoliberal way.
    People would want to wake up.

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    Mute Bobby Byrne
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    May 7th 2018, 9:53 AM

    @P.J. Nolan: I think when we start to see thousands of houses being built around Dublin and commuter counties it’ll be a sign of over supply about to happen which will cause a price drop, however no sign of that happening right now.

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    Mute P.J. Nolan
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    May 7th 2018, 10:24 AM

    @Bobby Byrne:
    Agreed
    When we were building 90,000 houses and Britain was building 180,000 should have been a give away but hey I bought a house in 2006 so I can’t say much!

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    Mute Adrian Ryan
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    May 7th 2018, 9:15 AM

    My god,my heart absolutely bleeds for her

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    Mute 2thFairy
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    May 7th 2018, 10:07 AM

    It was a lot tougher in the 1980’s. Trying to get out of a dingy bedsit in Rathmines onto the property ladder. We couldn’t afford Terenure where the family home was so we went to Co. Kildare and commuted to change our circumstances. Best decision we made. Sometimes you have to make different choices but that doesn’t make them the wrong choice.

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    Mute Neville Bartos
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    May 7th 2018, 9:57 AM

    The more social housing that is built and the easier it is to obtain will just see the queues to get it increase. It is not healthy for a society to hand out social housing to its young and educated.

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    Mute Ashish Uday Lal
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    May 7th 2018, 11:43 AM

    I am not sure what the author goals are, but after graduating, paying off student debt, house sharing until 30, renting independently, I bought a house at 39. Everyone has their unique circumstances, but the expectation to rent independently at 27 in the most expensive city in the country sounds a bit unrealistic.

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    Mute Jonathan Power
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    May 7th 2018, 1:33 PM

    @Ashish Uday Lal: well said!!!!

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    Mute Richard Twohig
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    May 7th 2018, 10:35 AM

    I see where you’re coming from. But, I’m 27, an unemployed postgrad with a big fat student loan. House-sharing with 2 older professionals for €1700p/m.. I have friends in their childhood boxroom who complain about it, but refuse to rent because it’s ‘dead money’, or they won’t live with strangers. I’m broke, in debt but nearly out the gap with this college malark. And I’m having the craic in my own gaf

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    Mute Jonathan Power
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    May 7th 2018, 9:45 AM

    Geez get out and live meet people house share, it’s awkward at first but everyone gels eventually. Shared a house in Waterford with crazy Eastern Europeans, a German that had a piano in his bedroom and an electrian from Limerick that had travelled the world. That was some craic !!!

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    Mute Stevie Doran
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    May 7th 2018, 9:21 PM

    @Jonathan Power: not everyone wants to live with headmelters

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    Mute Fiona Fitzgerald
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    May 7th 2018, 11:33 PM

    @Jonathan Power: Okay, how much study did you manage to get done in that? It sounds as if she’s managed a lot of hard work for years to qualify. She could meet people who have worked abroad any time.

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    Mute Joe Jackson
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    May 7th 2018, 9:19 AM

    I assume the 25 year figures where the housing pays for itself also covers upgrades and upkeep of the houses and public spaces?

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    Mute Paul Jennings
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    May 7th 2018, 9:43 AM

    I only know a very small percentage of Irish people who didn’t stay at home until they got married. They then usually (always) had the help of M.&D. financial services. So they couldn’t (hardly) spell words like: rent, deposit, arrears, foreclosure, negative equity, landlord, eviction, squat, tenant, sub-let, house of multiple occupancies, a month down, a month in advance and wouldn’t understand the question, “have you a euro for the meter?” So the one who’s crying she’s tired of coming through the same hall door after all these years, how would she like her “own space” of say, 60 square feet in a shared house in a city where she knows nobody and needs Ryanair and a long drive through the country on arrival to get walking through the hall door…

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    Mute Shane McGettrick
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    May 7th 2018, 4:24 PM

    @Paul Jennings: One full stop, bloody hell!

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    Mute Paul Jennings
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    May 8th 2018, 7:54 AM

    @Shane McGettrick: There are two actually. Then the question mark at the end of the sentence replaces a full stop. The last line is finished by ellipsis, again replacing a full stop. Still, if that’s all you got out of my comment, we’re both wasting our time….There ellipsis AND a full stop for you.

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    Mute Donna
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    May 7th 2018, 9:50 AM

    All the people giving out to her! She has an opinion and wants a place to call her own. What’s wrong with that. Isn’t that what we all want. House share is fine but it’s not the same as having your own space. She’s right to stay at home. I’m sure she contributes to the family home. I’ve lived out of home since I’m 19 I have lived and shared in shit holes and had stuff stolen on me. It was hard and I never felt safe all this was during the Celtic tiger and rents were high too. But myself and boyfriend managed to save every penny we had, and when the crash happened we were lucky enough to secure a mortgage. If you have the option to stay at home and save. Be patient what goes up must come down.

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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    May 7th 2018, 10:54 AM

    @Donna: having an opinion doesn’t make her right. She opened herself up for review of her opinion. Talking about her own place and suggesting she should get a 2 bed apartment at a reasonable rate because she wants it is extraordinary. I want a nicer house with a bigger south facing garden. I can’t because I can’t afford it.
    Some people want to include the likes of her as the undocumented homeless which is nonsense.

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    Mute Aaron
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    May 7th 2018, 10:14 AM

    The only realistic and sensible option is to emigrate really, I like my country a lot but it’s evident that the people who run it are brain dead. When you have average rent prices reaching 1.8k in such a below average city as Dublin, there is a problem.

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    Mute Stewart O Neill
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    May 7th 2018, 11:10 AM

    If i could have my mam back so i could co.e home to home cooked meals i would. Dont rush to leave especially if your not been pushed

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    Mute Leo-Wan Kenobi
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    May 7th 2018, 2:02 PM

    Ah cop on now!
    I live in Inchicore and I pay €650 for a nice double room in 2-bed apt just down from the St Michael’s estate (and there are a good few rooms up for rent in the same block).
    €30k are enough to share a flat and still have a decent life.

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    Mute David Edwards
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    May 7th 2018, 10:35 AM

    Comments section you always light up my morning. I hadn’t realised it was unreasonable to pursue the normal trajectory to adulthood and independence. You cannot Blame “the market” for the cost of rent that rests solely with the landlord, I am one of the accidental landlords and no one else has ever had any speak in the rent I charge. The “young people” aren’t the problem here it’s our tolerance of the rabid economic model and lax regulations in this country (when has that ever gotten us in trouble?). And to the landlords comment in here, if it’s not a profit making deal for you, sell up your property has never been worth more than it is now and quit moaning

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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    May 7th 2018, 11:02 AM

    @David Edwards: rent prices are certainly not the sole responsibility of landlords when tax on gross rent is 52%. The government increased the tax on charges on landlords so are responsible for forcing rents up. The government removed a huge chuck of rentals by banning bed sits. They increased taxes on building. So to claim landlords are responsible you would want to ignore a hell of a lot of things the government did that directly affect price and supply.
    The public are very happy to see more taxes and restriction on rentals but don’t like the consequences.

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    Mute David Edwards
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    May 12th 2018, 10:38 PM

    @Kal Ipers: it’s a simple concept, if you’re in the rental business for profit and can’t make money, sell up! Instant profit!

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    Mute Chris Crook
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    May 7th 2018, 11:26 AM

    The housing market is in a state of catastrophy. While this girl by the looks of things can afford to house share, the sad thing is society’s acceptance that house sharing should be the norm, or moving further afield, or even emigrating. She has earned a degree already, is finishing a post grad, has found a job with what looks like a big player. All of the things we would wish for our children. The natural progression here would be to rent a place of her own and start saving for a place of her own further down the line. Its not natural to move in with four other strangers in to a box room. Or pay the price of a mortgage on a three bed home to rent a room in a two bedroom apartment.

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    Mute Niall Ó Cofaigh
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    May 7th 2018, 11:10 AM

    I have no idea how it works elsewhere, but there is an issue here whereby the cost of buying and building a home, long term, is beyond the reach of many people in lower or middle incomes if they live and work in Dublin (and I am sure elsewhere).

    The options are social housing provided by the tax payer or something more imaginative to allow people become independent and purchase a property to live in…… renting for life privately and without stare support, at the current rates, (average €1,822 a month) would see it impossible to meet the rent when someone reaches pension age…. so it is fine to talk about moving out and renting but this does not solve the problem for people who do not qualify for social housing. Of course moving outside Dublin and commuting could be an option and has been chosen by some.

    We tend to see an issue with homelessness and insufficient state provided or supported homes but we are still burying our heads in the sand when it comes to long term planning for those above the state support threshold.

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    Mute Seán J. Troy
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    May 7th 2018, 11:20 AM

    First of all, I hope your postgraduate isn’t in photography. I can’t see half your head.

    Secondly, what would be the impact of a 90% cap gains tax on non owner occupier housing sales?

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    Mute P.J. Nolan
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    May 7th 2018, 12:33 PM

    @Seán J. Troy:
    They wouldn’t sell them.

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    Mute Seán J. Troy
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    May 7th 2018, 12:39 PM

    @P.J. Nolan: They’re not selling them anyway. But it does truncate new cash buyers who currently are the market, especially in Dublin.

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    Mute P.J. Nolan
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    May 7th 2018, 3:44 PM

    @Seán J. Troy:
    Agreed it would put a brake on people buying houses with the sole intention of selling it off again in a few years for the capital gains but then it would also stop people, like accidental landlords from getting out. What you gain in you will loose in the other.
    For a few years now the government have changed various rules and regs around sale and rental markets and none of them have made ANY difference
    The only thing that will make a difference is more building.
    Supply and demand.

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    Mute Liam Lally
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    May 7th 2018, 3:40 PM

    The rents and purchase prices for apartments, in purpose built, Clongriffin are very reasonable .It is a great place to live with great transport alternatives into the city etc. Its no sacrifice living with your parents and I expect everything is done for you

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    Mute P.J. Nolan
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    May 7th 2018, 8:02 PM

    @Liam Lally:
    How is the auctioneers business going for you these days??

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    Mute Margate
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    May 7th 2018, 11:43 AM

    Ah here!! Every socio economic climate becomes relative with time. Yes, the rental market is too expensive. But i would love to know what % of those young peoples incomes is spent on their social life??? All of us had to make choices even a decade or two ago- we had lower wages, less choices and opportunities overall- but boy, did we HAVE to shift ass and move out of home, often to large urban centres to make a go of our lives. I , too, would have preferred to live at home, wasn’t an option.
    Its also an Urban trend- aside from accomod challenges- over decades, such young people CHOSE to live at home. Are life-choices ,in the overall scheme of things , so much less limited now??? …NO!

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    Mute Keith mac suibhne
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    May 7th 2018, 2:25 PM

    Makes sense the current market driven model is unsustainable. Fair rents for ordinary people makes sense.

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    Mute Kal Ipers
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    May 7th 2018, 3:15 PM

    @Keith mac suibhne: it can quite happily go along as is and is sustainable. Rents can continue to rise and houses can be split up to house more. It happens in every city as it grows. We used to have the highest home ownership in the world. As time moved on we became more like other countries. Homeownership has forever changed. Due to the crash many people were aged out of mortgages changing the percentage of rentals required permanently. House prices can keeping going up for years and may never fall just slow to a crawl.

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    Mute P.J. Nolan
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    May 7th 2018, 8:12 PM

    @Kal Ipers:
    Can’t agree with the last part of the last sentence, certainly house prices could keep going up for years, could easily be a decade or more but their will be another crash, just depends on how severe it is. Almost every boom in economic history has been followed by a crash, no reason to believe this will be different.
    Of course it is entirely possible that after the crash house prices could be significantly higher than they are now, that depends on how long it takes to happen, now if we could predict that……

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    Mute Jack
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    May 7th 2018, 8:09 PM

    Stop moaning and start doing. Move outside Dublin where rent is far cheaper. You can’t have your cake and eat it.

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    Mute Bennett28
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    May 7th 2018, 9:10 PM

    Eh 27?? Should you not be out working and renting/ paying mortgage????

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    Mute Dermattg
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    May 7th 2018, 2:43 PM

    Sounds fantastic. Young people really need these initiatives today. Everyone deserves to have the chance to have their own home. Politicians local and national need to take note and show leadership in this too.

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    Mute baaabaaaboooey
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    May 7th 2018, 8:42 PM

    the brazilians can manage to live in dublin city centre

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    Mute Dave O'Looney
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    May 7th 2018, 7:33 PM

    it’s time to play……… spot the right wing.

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    Mute Jack Jackson
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    May 7th 2018, 3:22 PM

    Poor poor girl!! Not!

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    Mute James Mc Loughlin
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    May 9th 2018, 12:09 PM

    She is very lucky to be able to walk trough a hall door,there are thousands of people who would love to do this,be grateful and stop whinging and maby help out about the house,who will cook do your washing for you,

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