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I’m getting increasingly nervous as this progresses. The Western corporate/state media is not covering the leaked phonecard of the Estonian Foreign Minister in which he says it was the very opposition itself who ordered the massacre of its own protesters and government forces. A major British news outlet with a prime time nightly audience referred to the phonecall as ‘alleged’ even though it was confirmed as being authentic by the Estonian Foreign Minister. The news organisation sought to discredit it. Why? Does it an agenda it’s meant to preach from?
It also has become perfectly clear who has orchestrated these mainly fake protests that led to the downfall of the Ukrainian Government. NATO has now said it will work closely with Ukrainian armed forces to better enable democracy in Ukraine. Come again?
There is video footage of Blackwater forces in Kiev and reports of Ukrainian MPs being intimidated by gunmen. Add to this the bands of armed thugs roaming the streets of Kiev.
The Journal still has not covered the leaked phonecall of the Estonian Foreign Minister. Why?
NATO rolling into Ukraine could very well lead to WWIII. Einstein said WWIV would be fought with sticks and stones.
If we look at the last place NATO brought ‘democracy’ , Libya, we can see how great these guys are at their job. A country that once was the envy of Africa with regards to living standards and peace and security turned into a complete basket case where law and order have broken down and warlords rule the land now.
BBC and CNN corrupt media, ignominy !!!
Because they will look $tupid as they are. Copy&Paste Irish media
Naughty naughty Horgay – don’t try to distort it. The Estonian minister says no such thing.
What he actually does is just relay to someone what someone else supposedly told him, but the only problem is that the ‘someone else’ says that she never said it in the first place.
WHERE is democracy ? WHERE is freedom of speech ?
Avina, this was a private phone call between two politicians which was leaked, they have no reason to lie to each other, politicians only lie to their adoring public, there’s easy way to make it a non story, apply a little bit of bleach to some dirt in a toilet and it is clean.
“And still, people are seriously concerned about the fact that the new coalition is unwilling to investigate what really occurred there . The understanding of the fact that somebody from the new coalition, not Yanukovych, was behind those snipers is becoming more and more strengthened with every passing day.”
It’s you that’s distorting, Avina. Have you listened to the call? I have.
Joe,
1) Who bugged it, leaked it and why? What is their agenda, and what else might they have done to further that agenda? If the US had done this the likes of Horgay would be going apoplectic right now!
2) The fact of the matter is that the doctor at the centre of this says she never said what she is purported to have said – how do you square that circle?
3) I, no more than you, Horgay or anyone else (other than the trigger men) know who shot the protesters, my original point, which I stand by, was that Horgay is misrepresenting the content of that phone call.
I point you to White Fangs comment, have you actually listened to the phone call yourself Avina? It sounds to me like you haven’t, seems you have a bee in your bonnet about the other commentator Horgay more than you do with this phone call.
Whitefang, Do you think I would be calling Horgay out on it if I hadn’t also listened to it??
“[the Estonian Foreign Minister] says it was the very opposition itself who ordered the massacre of its own protesters”
He says no such thing – he relays what someone else purportedly said to him about who may have fired the shots (someone who denies ever having said it) but makes no judgment at all as to its authenticity. Neither does he make any claim whatsoever about who ordered it. Horgay is distorting the situation.
Guys, can you post a link to a Russian News Site (state owned) where you can post fair comments freely without censorship (like this site) please? whether its about attacks on gays or the occupation of Crimea. My Russian is limited but passable.
BTW Channel 4 covered the Estonian Minister’s phone call – A Minister discussing one possible theory he heard is not a major story. Probably like there hasn’t been much discussion about a Swedish diplomat’s theory that Berkut and protesters were infiltrated by FSB (no proof on that either)
Fake protests??
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25290959
The CIA must be good to manufacture this..
Horgay – Libya a stable country? You are hilarious…
Now have a question for you Rob Gill….do you know how many stories are suppressed from your beloved USA news media? I’ll answer this, no you don’t because your bias doesn’t not even make you look, misguided fool. I read recently on this site, NBC ran story about $40 trillion lawsuit against Washington crooks and was taken off immediately, and that’s not all, next day Vice President NBC 6 & 8 years children were murdered by their loving nanny, who then knife herself many time, too strange to be true or coincidence no?
I’m under no illusions about the limitations of Western media and that this story has been spun to some degree. But I know the fact we can comment freely on a site like this and people can protest (legally) in this country without the Police opening fire or beating up protesters -shows there is some measure of freedom of speech. Some people think democracy is a good thing. This is not available to many people (try googling democracy in China or Iran). I will take the limitations of Western media over Russian media and the bullying of that fart Putin any day….
(For example how many Russians have been told the truth about the ‘great patriotic war’, where there is irrefutable evidence that the Red army systematically raped hundreds of thousands of German, Polish, Estonian, Ukrainian women on the official orders) -btw where is the Russian site that I can comment on freely and rant away like Igors does on this site
You are under serious illusions my friend. This much is very clear.
Rob don’t mix USSR and Russia at present time. USSR was communist country, and do not need stick all USSR mistakes to Putin. While US was controlled always by same guys bankers.
Horgay. Ask the vast majority of the Libyian people if they would want Gaddaffi back? Just like the Iraqis would if the would like Saddam back. Sure maybe the Ugandans would have liked Amin back or Cambodia would like Pol Pot back or Haiti would like Duvailer back.
Igors. One Journalist resigned on air from RT because of it’s distortion of the news another criticised RT for the same thing while on air. Thats 2 Journalists in a week live on air. Doesn’t say a lot for RT’s neutrality or journalistic integrity.
Mick, many Iraqis would welcome a return to the days of Saddam. An oppressive despot is the lesser of evils when compared to a sectarian guerrilla war. Al Qaeda have established their Middle Eastern hub in Iraq, where previously they had only the most nominal of presence. Iraq has gone from bad to worse.
White Fang how many? The majority or just those that lost out after he was removed?
The majority who would rather live in an oppressive police state, without the risk of being blown up outside school, church, or on the way to work. You just have to look at the numbers dying, the numbers fleeing, the areas under control of Al Qaeda, the remaining corruption, the increasing poverty, the collapsing public services, and so on to see how the US has driven Iraq for a dictatorship to a failed state. How is that progress? Go ahead, self-congratulate for bombing your delusion of democracy into an already suffering nation, history will judge the war appropriately.
White Fang. Did Iraq not have elections? Just because a small minority refuse to accept the result. Its like those that refuse to accept the result of the Good Friday vote here. They become violent.
Btw. Look back at our own history. When we gained independence from Britain was it all love and peace here or did we ourselves have to go through a civil war first? Most democracies have had civil strife at some point in their history and those that have survived as democracies have been made stronger because of it.
Love and peace Northern Ireland. Yes, to the point!
Denis do the vast majority of Northern Irelands population not live in peace and harmony with their neighbours from the other view? Did the vast majority no vote for the Good Friday agreement? So what may I ask is the point you are attempting to make?
When was last time in the North Mick? Was it in shopping district? or Short Strand? Maybe Ardoyne? Tell me about peace and harmony in these areas, tell me there is no political policing, people jailed for no reason other than their beliefs e.g. Stephen Murney, you’re living in cloud cuckoo land.
Poor Mick. You are commenting on the global political events trying to give an expert evaluation without knowing your own history. Poor reality((
“WHERE is democracy ? WHERE is freedom of speech ”
Not in Putin’s Russia.
Military industrial complex have got it popping and locking and they itching to start a major war but its not as if we didn’t know this 6 years ago when the depression kicked in. I head people comparing Putin to Hitler, well it ain’t Russia that is flat broke, printing money like there’s no tomorrow ( trillions over the last few years) that is resulting in spiraling inflation in economies whose only job creation is minimum wage and scambridges. The demise of the petrodollar is well under way and their masters ( the central bankers ) are going to try to take us to war like they’ve behind every major war over the last 250 years if u know your history.
Imagine there was a revolution by pro Russian Mexican citizens, looking to overthrow the western Government and establish closer ties with Russia and China including the possibility to establish military bases right on the Mexican and American border… If that happened then I don’t think the American reaction would compare very well to Russias in Ukraine!
Cuba
Can someone tell what Kerry is doing over there and what this issue has to do with the states
America sticks its nose in all countries, it does not matter whether it their business or not.
I think most Americans are asking the same thing.
Only when it suits them
What is has to do with the States: The US promised to guarantee Ukraine’s borders in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum in return for surrendering their Soviet-era nukes to Russia. So it’s legally bound to intervene.
Igors your country is always sticking its nose into former Soviet states too with your puppet states in Georgia and Moldova separatist regions.
This is merely window dressing. The EU pretends it cares about the people of the Ukraine but when you see the small.printed conditions of their ‘Bailout’ offer..ie Sale of state assets including farmland…erosion of social welfare conditions…raising the pensionable age to 70…then you see how much the EU really cares about Ukraine and its people!!
Where can I read the ‘small print’ of the conditions attached to a bailout package? Genuine question.
EU were the catalyst for this entire situation and its not being mentioned anywhere in the media. What were the EU diplomats thinking continuing to push that association deal even after it had been rejected by the Ukraine government.??
You can’t Avina…..Hugh is the only one with a copy.
God Martin, I don’t know. Maybe the 100,000 plus peaceful protesters protesting in the freezing cold might have made them think that the people were in favour of it -even if their government had caved under pressure from Russian bullying and threats of restricting gas supplies and reneged on a deal. May be the people look at Poland and then look at Belarus and think maybe our future lies in the EU…
@Rob Gill ……Ever hear of the democratic process ??? A referendum should have been called by the Ukrainian parliament on the EU deal and still could be….If the protesters were shouting for a referendum instead of a pro western only approach the outcome would have been more peaceful. As it appears now there is a huge amount Ukrainians that were against the EU deal. Should they not have their voice heard or are you only interested in the pro EU argument .
Speaking as mere subject of the banking controlled EU I have come to know them as a very undemocratic organization, They do not want the population of any country having a say….they only like dealing with self serving politicians that are willing to ignore the democratic process for personal gain. The Ukrainians are being used as pawns by the EU and the US, Russia has no interest in the democratic voice of the people being heard either. An election needs to be called as soon as possible and a referendum on the EU deal also…..people who are opposed to that are not democrats and will be exposed by their opposition.
Martin,
“As it appears now there is a huge amount Ukrainians that were against the EU deal”
Several independent opinion polls have indicated that far more Ukrainians favour closer ties to Europe than closer ties to Russia.
I agree though, there should have been and still should be a referendum on such a significant decision – if Yanukovych had offered this its unlikely that there would have been any protests in the first place.
Martin the people of Ukraine wanted the deal with the EU. Yanokovich dropped the deal when Russia intervened and Putin gave him his instructions. Yanokovich was always Putins creature going right back to when he was first removed after the Orange Revolution when it was discovered the the Russian FSB had interfered with the ballot to get him elected.
@Avina
Polls are not a replacement for the democratic process, we don’t even trust polls here so how could we trust them in Ukraine. Could you get me a link to those poll results though I would be interested in where and when they were done.
How do you reckon people are opposed to the EU deal? when hundreds of thousands people marched once Yanukovich went back on his word (promised he would seek non-alignment when he ran in 2010) in November. If an election is held in May – that will effectively serve as a referendum if pro-EU politicians win a majority. But I agree with your comments above – an election and referendum (we voted for membership of the EU) needs to be held for credibility – but Yanukovich needed to be removed to ensure it would be fair, given what happened in 2004. If the present administration delay the date of the election indefinitely and hang on in power without a mandate – then they deserve to lose support from EU
Surely Russia could have waited for general elections -there was no immediate threat to any of its citizens. Now apparently there will be a referendum on Crimean autonomy on March 16th -with Russian troops still occupying all the major organs of government there -you reckon that will be a free and fair vote? For the record I think there should be a referendum there too but when the situation is normalised.
@Mick
You are anti Russia that much is clear, I am not taking any side just pointing out the weakness in the western argument that is not getting aired in the media !! Its common knowledge that Yanokovich was a puppet of Putin, but to say ” the people of Ukraine wanted the deal with the EU ” is not factual. Where is the democratic results of the referendum that proves that statement, why doesn’t the current President allow a referendum on the deal now and adhere to the results. The EU does not want a referendum because they don’t respect the voice of the people they proved it twice here and in France and Holland also. The crisis was started by the EU and is continuing due to a lack of desire to quickly pursue the democratic process on all sides including Russia.
Here are a selection of polls Martin:
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2013/11/18-viktor-yanukovych-losing-europe-ukrainian-public-pifer-thoburn
I agree with you though, polls aren’t everything which is why there needs to be a referendum.
@Rob ” How do you reckon people are opposed to the EU deal? ”
There are now huge pro Russia demonstrations in the east of the country these people are clearly against the EU deal.
Rob. I am not anti Russian in the way you seem to imply. I am Anti Putin. He sees himself as the new Tzar. Vladimir I. Ruler of all the Russia’s. He could have lead Russia to real freedom and democracy. He could have been partners with the West for a better future for all. But he chose to re ignite the cold war. He wants the Russian dominated Soviet empire back no matter if those countries want to come back or not.
But Mick, you are right wing fan boy, how can you not love Putin?
Because Putin is a construct of the Old Soviet Union. A Colonel in the KGB no less. All those years of indoctrination. Do you think his thought processes have changed?
Martin they weren’t pushing it. If they were pushing it they would have tried to outbid the Kremlin’s €35 billion loan. The sticking point was the release of Yulia Tymoshenko which he wouldn’t agree to.
So Eamonn the EU took the deal off the table an accepted that it had been rejected. That is not the case…they never retracted the deal and no doubt would have wanted the new government minus Yanukovich to accept it had Putin not reacted so directly. Tymoshenko has already been released by the interim president and that shows the EU were still pushing for that.
So the leaked phone call between top EU diplomats casting doubt about who was actually killing protesters is a NON-STORY? Wow there is something very disturbing about all of this, there is even extended footage of the protester getting shot at that shows they were being fired at FROM BEHIND. This whole thing stinks to the high heavens now.
Do you have a link to that footage? Either way, there is also high-quality footage of uniformed berkut firing live rounds directly at the crowd, so what is your point?
I’m on my phone so I can’t post it now, but it was posted in a Ukraine related story yesterday by angryzes? Yes I’ve seen the footage you refer to it only shows berkut firing off, no crowd in the same footage, I think it remains in doubt now who killed these protesters.
It shows berkut firing horizontally though, not into the air, and there is ample footage of protesters being blown backwards after being shot.
I agree that all claims need to be investigated though – as I said above the only people who know for sure are the people who pulled the triggers, and hopefully they will be caught and made to face justice whoever they are.
Just to clarify my position, I’ve no doubt Police killed protestors, it seems highly unlikely to me that they didn’t, I now have higher suspicions than previous that they were not the only ones. I’m sure you agree with me on this one though, we cannot trust the media to tell us full truth anytime there is such big agenda going on.
100% in agreement with you on that – as usual there is propaganda and counterpropaganda coming from all sides.
I don’t know who fired on who, or when – but when you bear in mind that the protesters were occupying a square, especially where there is high ground/buildings all around the periphery, there is a danger in taking evidence of shots from behind as conclusive proof that they were fired on by their own people – and to be clear, I’m not saying that it isn’t a possibility – just that it’s only one of several possible explanations…
Yes very true, but fact interim government suppress investigation, and indict Yanukovich and cronies for killings is very bad, no questions asked, only answers given.
Estonia is denying they said the Opposition did it. I think what he said was that guns used against the Berkut were also used against the demonstrators. Now that could have happened for lots of reasons, like guns falling into the hands of the other side.
I’m gonna leave this here for Mick.
Yes, they were really discussing an unconfirmed conspiracy theory.
I find conspiracy theory unbelievable, given the snipers were filmed out in the open and on the side of the police lines.
Besides that, it’s interesting that the Ukrainian mobile phone network is bugged by the Russians. That needs a lot of dedicated infrastructure installed at base stations and network level to carry out.
It likely means that the phone and Internet network of Ukraine is closely monitored. The Russians have, at least, a country level equivalent of NSA’s global capability.
Oh, David. What do Ukrainian phone networks have to do with anything? This was a call from Estonia to, presumably, Brussels.
White Fang. “The voice of Russia”? I will wait for a more neutral media source. That link is no different to RT proclaiming the story as factual.
Mick, you really are polarised. Only reading news from the western sphere of influence isn’t something to be proud of. Trying reading from the other side sometime. You don’t have to accept what is said, but you might learn something. If you had read the article, instead of shutting down at the name Voice of Russia, you would know that the Estonian government has confirmed that the call is genuine. If I post a link from BBC or Euronews, will you accept it then?
Same man here, Mick Jordan, used Metro.co.uk to try back up misleading claims, how do you like your propaganda Mick, rare or well done?
Yes I would. Euro news or the BBC would be acceptable.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA2423O20140305?irpc=932
There you go. Much of what you are told to believe comes from Reuters, actually.
Thank you White Fang. Now had you posted that in the first place we wouldn’t have having a debate as to its veracity.
You should have been able to do that for yourself.
Why White Fang it was you that was making the point.
No the call was made from Ukraine..
Ukraine needs to get on with Europe and Russia equally it cannot take sides
Yanukovych actually understood that originally too, and that was what his election platform was primarily based on (moving closer to Europe but still maintaining links with Russia).
I thought Neville Chamberlain had died.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/mar/06/rt-journalist-resigns-on-air
Here you go Putinistas – lets see your bile come out about this journalist. I imagine the comments will be along the lines of ‘she is only trying to make a name for herself’, ‘The CIA put her up to it’….but first listen to her story about how her family fled Soviet oppression in Hungary in 1957 when Russian Tanks rolled in to crush dissent. Never forget what Russian expansionism means. If you don’t know ask any Eastern European you know. Then ask why is Poland economically successful and Belarus not….Ask why Latvia, Estonia, Hungary joined NATO and then look at how Putin made his name -by carpet bombing Grozny…Ask what happened Litvinenko, Yushchenko, Anna Politkovskaya and anyone else who dares speak up against Putin’s Russia. But above all ask what do the majority of Ukrainians want – certainly not a foreign army of occupation.
Oh pray for the grass!!! An American citizen doesn’t agree with RT news coverage, tell me something new?
She just read script like all at CNN, FOX, NBC, SKY, BBC, what’s your point?
Having a look at brave young man on BBC news last night, in the morning paper review, he dared challenge BBC narrative if Ukraine and question American involvement, need to say this the topic was quickly changed to mundane stories and presenter very angry, young man not even thanked for appearance but other guest was, he should join RT don’t you think Robert?
Unfortunately I think you’re wasting your time with many journalistas Rob. RT is the Russian equivalent of Fox News, the propaganda outlet of the Kremlin, but because it offers a different ‘story’ to most other media outlets many on here somehow think it shows the real ‘truth’ that the rest of the media are trying to prevent us from hearing, instead of recognising it for what it is (which apparently this presenter has done).
Don’t get me wrong, its always good to get a different perspective (and RT certainly offers that to a point), but I certainly wouldn’t accept everything it says without question.
If he wants to certainly. Its a free country -more opinions the better. Pity that is not allowed under Putin. Are you really going to tell me there is freedom of speech in Russia? Pussy Riot might disagree.
How is he brave? He is hardly going to be shot unlike Anna Politkovskaya who protested against the slaughter in Chechnya. My point is she stood up for her principles.
It’s a completely transparent PR stunt. Watch her get snapped up by Fox or CNN. I have no problem with that, that’s how the biz works. It’s incredibly naïve to think that she acted for purely ideological reasons though.
RT is interesting, as long as you approach it sceptically. If nothing else, it’s an intriguing perspective. Its equivalent to Fox, really. Those who only follow news from the west limit themselves. Get your news from around the world, and form your own opinion.
Career suicide ROBERT, have you heard the term? I think is coined in America, can’t be sure, but anyway more than one application of the meaning Brave, also speak truth sometimes can be perceived as brave, especially when it will cause isolation, you agree?
White Fang, would you have been as quick to dismiss it as a PR stunt if it was a BBC or Sky News reporter who resigned live on air saying that (s)he wasn’t prepared to lie to the public any more?
Be honest now!! ;-)
Yes, Avina, I would. Like I said, that’s how the biz works. Don’t misinterpret me as sharing your double standards.
Sorry White Fang, but given the rest of your posts I just don’t think that’s credible.
Have found White Fangs commenting on here to be non-partisan, you Avina, not as bad as others, but seem to be slightly leaning in one direction. No problem with that, just the dog integrity is better than the cat.
USA and EU have now combined to become the Great Satan of the World taking on the work where the Nazi’s had left off..
Explain that Frank. I don’t EU/US troops in Ukraine? If you are talking about Afghanistan far enough – but how it that relevant to a discussion on an illegal excursion of Ukraine in breach of numerous treaties.
Speaking of planting provocateurs to inflame situations in order to destabilize and over throw legitimate governments. We have seen all this before in Syria (Failed thanks to Putin) …Libya and Egypt…..Its all about setting up their Puppet Governments.
Frank what about the Russians getting caught red handed interfering in elections in Ukraine and their poisoning of the Former President?
sshhhhhh mick….
;-)
Scientologists are on the case, it will be over in no time.
“UKRAINE SITUATION FURTHER CONFUSED AFTER APPEARANCE BY JOHN TRAVOLTA”(http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2014/03/ukraine-situation-further-confused-after-appearance-by-john-travolta.html)
Fecking circus
it’s a joke by the way… american satire for american style of handling crisis…
have your say