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Updated 1.12pm
RENUA HAS PROPOSED a radical plan to introduce a new flat rate tax of 23% on all income.
The proposal forms part of the party’s pre-budget submission, which has been published today and also includes a policy to abolish the TV licence and fund RTÉ entirely through commercial revenue.
Under the flat tax proposal the current income tax regime, USC, and employees’ PRSI would be abolished and a flat rate of 23% introduced.
Everybody, irrespective of income, would pay this rate with tax rebates to low income households on a sliding scale to avoid any drastic fall in their take home pay.
Speaking at the launch today, Renua leader Lucinda Creighton said:
Our flat tax policy will reward work, crucially, create more employment and take people out of the welfare and poverty trap and make it attractive for people to work here, including emigrants who want to come home. This will benefit all.
She said that anybody earning under €70,000 would receive a certain amount of income supports to avoid any fall in their income.
For the first three-years after the flat rate is introduced everybody on social welfare supports would retain their payments. Prior to this there would be a two-year lead in period focused on educating the public about the new system.
Those on middle and higher incomes would stand to benefit from this lower rate of tax with a significant knock-on effect on the exchequer’s tax take from this cohort.
Under the flat tax proposals a person earning €35,000 would benefit by €567 annually. A couple earning a combined income of €100,000 would be €15,856 better off.
Renua claims that the new system would still account for 80% of the exchequer’s current tax take with the abolition of tax shelters and reliefs making up the gap. Extra spending would also increase VAT receipts, the party said.
The party said that the proposal had not been costed by Department of Finance with Creighton describing many of their analyses as “inaccurate”.
It has been drawn-up by the party’s head of policy Ross McCarthy who said he consulted with a “wide range of economists, tax advisors and tax professionals” whom he declined to name on the grounds of confidentiality.
Elsewhere, Renua says it would abolish motor tax with a direct levy on fuel at source, adding 3 cent to the price of a litre of petrol and 4 cent to the price of a litre of diesel.
Other proposals include:
Former Libertas leader and businessman Declan Ganley has long been a proponent of the flat tax model and spoke extensively about it at the recent Renua think-in.
Similar flat tax regimes are in place in countries like Romania, Latvia and Lithuania.
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She clearly trying to appeal to middle-upper class
It’s about time somebody appealed to the squeezed middle who have paid the biggest price in this recession.
Well said rad. Tax after tax after tax. where is the incentive to try and get on and improve yourself or your lot.
All talk, pure pre election attention seeking
This will simply shift wealth from the lower earners and back into the pockets of high-paid PAYE workers.
It has zero impact on the rich who have ways of reducing the amount they pay themselves through the PAYE system.
Low-income earners will suddenly be paying income tax on portions of income that were previously tax-free.
Low-income earners who earn 32k or less will obviously be worse off as their tax rate increases.
Some middle income earners who currently pay a small portion of their salary in the higher tax band will also be worse off.
…..and cake for “all”……..
Fantastic and sensible proposals. Flat rate taxation is the only truly fair tax system.
Fair to people on minimum wage (18k) who currently pay about 4% in all income taxes?
Low earners pay the most in tax as a proportion of income, so please take your talking points elsewhere.
According to the EU Commission, Latvia’s flat tax has resulted in “The tax wedge for low-income earners, standing at 43.1% for single persons earning 67% of the average wage”
Now, if you’re whooping it up re flat tax because you think it’ll benefit you, at least be honest about it – there’s nothing fair about a flat tax regime.
And in reality it probably won’t benefit you at all – it’s the likes of Ganley that this policy is designed for.
Entirely correct Voodoo – if Ganley supports it it’s probably going to be in his benefit.
If the proposal was to abolish all taxes bar VAT it would make it fairer to those earning more. As you correctly cite since higher VAT rates are on things like cigarettes and alcohol it impacts more on those earning less. So in reality it is a nod to the middle classes – which is where they are aiming it at.
About time the nonsense system we currently have is challenged.
There should not be anyone with an income not contributing via income tax, irrespective of their income level.
The actual people generating wealth are seeing it all going into taxes, and benefits for others, and civil servants overpaid salaries.
We are tired of being tax slaves tot he system, while others pay no income tax at all.
Taxing everyone is obviously fair !!!!l
Low earners pay fook all tax and there are many of them. Their tax burden is moved to the middle income earners. Everyone working should pay a fair share of tax. FF/PDs decimated the tax based by taking lower paid out of the net with the result that many now believe it is their right & entitlement not to contribute. As the AAA/SF/Labour all scramble for working class votes expect middle classes to be screwed.
Hopefully this works out;
My salary of €120,000 is decimated by tax, I then have to walk through my area (east wall in Dublin) and see all of the bums spending my hard earned money from my 14 hour days… and then throwing their cans / needles on the ground when they’re finished, it’s sickening!
Low earners pay the same rate of tax as a proportion of income including indirect taxation as the highest earners: http://www.nerinstitute.net/download/pdf/household_tax_contributions_neri_wp18.pdf
Now, if you’d like someone earning €15k to pay exactly the same amount of tax as someone earning €100k, there’s not much I can do to help you.
Low earners under the Latvian 24% flat tax model pay 13% more tax than under our current system. And that’s without even getting in to the collapse of public services in these countries.
@Voodoo,
The point is not to pay the same amount, they won’t they should pay a percentage of their income in direct income tax. NOT indirect taxes we all pay.
EVERYONE would pay income tax, the amount of tax you pay is proportional to your income.
Burdening people at modest income levels with excessive taxes, is making people leave, every euro I earn, I give away over 50% to the state, that is outrageous and overtaxation.
It makes me a tax slave to the state, all the while half the population is paying no income taxes at all.
@voodoo
In your link it states the income tax paid by someone earning 22k = only 300
The income tax paid by someone earning 29k = 800.
That is a joke, in a broke country that means all the income tax has to come from people 30k – 70k which are the vast majority……and paying through the nose
“Tax slave”? Oh bless you, you poor martyr you. Personally, I feel fortunate that I have no difficulties putting food on the table and taking care of my loved ones, with a few luxuries here and there.
At the same time I’m happy to contribute to a society that at least in theory tries to provide a decent standard of living for everyone and to ameliorate the absurdities of the capitalism and to some extent. (If you think that the top 10% holding over half the country’s wealth isn’t absurd, again I can’t help you)
Why does it matter whether it’s income tax or direct taxation anyhow? Again, the bottom quintile pay the same rate of tax more or less as the top quintile, even if the former’s income tax bill is much lower.
“Everybody, irrespective of income, would pay this rate with tax rebates to low income households on a sliding scale to avoid any drastic fall in their take home pay.”
@ voodoo do you not believe indirect taxes are the problem there? surely a flat rate is fairer in the sense someone earning 20k would pay 4k ish in direct tax where as someone on 100 would pay 23k in tax? inserting some threshold for a tax free allowance would help the lowest paid shifting more burden to the higher paid would be broadly acceptable. but paying 52% tax on everything you earn plus all the indirect taxes out of your remaining 48% simply stagnates people ambition to achieve and earn more. if you balance the take home money of 60k to that of 40k it most cases its simply not worth the life sacrifices. the same on the lower end people aren’t exactly encouraged to work a 37/40 hour week for 17,600 take home out of 20k earnings when its much easier to get 12/15 k for doing nothing.
@voodoo,
Personally I feel robbed, having money I generate and earn taken away at source, leaving less for me than is taken.
I pay almost 2k per month in direct income taxation, which works out as 36% per month.
Then every penny of “after tax” income is crucified by 23% VAT, and indirect tax after indirect tax.
All this while anyone <30k income pays effectively no direct income tax at all.
They should pay, and if necessary get better jobs to increase income (and if they do increase their income, let them benefit from that more than the taxman !!!!)
Exactly Bilbo !!!!!
Firstly Google, someone on 100k pays an effective tax rate of about 40% (single employee). To say you lose more than 50% of you income to direct taxes is not true!
The highes rate of VAT is 23%, this does not apply to everything as many other things are subject to lower rates of VAT or are VAT exempt. So to say you also pay 23% VAT on everythink is also not true.
The “incentives” argument is absolute nonsense. The only likely effect of increasing the tax burden on low earners by 15% to 20% – which is how flat tax policies have worked out in Latvia – is incentivising people to leave: Latvia lost 13% of its population in a decade, that doesn’t benefit anyone.
Equally, you’re not factoring in the effects of progressive / redistributive taxation on nett demand – if you hit those least able to afford it and reduce their consumption, it’s going to hurt the economy as a whole and by extension higher earners. Hammering lower earners because of basic greed dressed up as an argument that they’re somehow “undeserving” hurts everyone in the long run.
You can’t just ignore indirect taxation because it undermines your argument.
However, there does seem to be an argument to be made in terms of income inequality – the reason that so many pay less income tax is because they get paid so much less. I’m all for measures to rebalance this, which I would go to allay some of your concerns.
If it sounds too good to be true then it must be a scam.
How can it leave EVERYBODY better off.?
Of course if VAT was increased to 30% and property taxes doubled, and petrol taxes increased by 20 percent etc the figures might add up..
I dont know because mathematics was not my best subject in school.
@Reg,
My marginal rate of tax is 52%.
That means every additional euro I earn above 32K, I pay over 50% tax on.
This means the government is taking more of my earning above 32k, than I receive myself, in every single euro.
That is a fact, and it is very discouraging, if I earn an additional €1000 years this year, I only get approx €480. Where is the incentive to earn more for me? Knowing most of it is going to be taken and given to overpaid public servants in the main.
It’s currently 51% and it is wrong. Nobody should have to pay more than half their income in taxes above any level of salary. No matter how much you earn.
Looks like the government is going to change that next month. But what it also needs to do is increase the amount at which that 51% kicks in. 34k is far too low.
“My marginal rate of tax is 52%.”
Mine too. It is a ludicrous amount of money to pay in tax, but that doesn’t validate the flat tax.
In my view the top rate of tax should be slightly less than 50%, with a lot more than two tax bands between that and the lowest rate. You should have to earn about 200k per annum before you start paying the top band.
@Reg,
We can finally agree, it is wrong, and the entry level is massively too low.
I hope it will change in the budget, but it will only be a modest reduction, and all the usual crowd will be out claiming the “rich are getting richer” and its a wealth transfer from the poor etc nonsense.
It will be only a modest reduction in tax burden on very modest income levels (not wealthy).
I would recommend a abolition of the USC, the expansion over time of the PAYE system to include more people between 20k – 29k, so that they are paying their fair share of income tax.
A new their to the income tax system at 100k, and a reduction to a maximum effective rate of 35-40% for all incomes between 50 – 99k.
If it does not bring in enough taxes to paid civil servant wages, then reduce the wages we cannot afford more.
“Personally, I feel fortunate that I have no difficulties putting food on the table and taking care of my loved ones, with a few luxuries here and there.”
This should be normality….
I’m not ignoring indirect taxes. VAT, VRT, import taxes , Excise taxes, Tv/dog licences, Water, property, levies. etc are the exact taxes that hit the Lower paid harder. (which is part of the basis for my argument).
I at no point said increasing the tax burden on the lower paid by 20% was an answer to anything. That’s where the TFA comes into play. We have the lowest burdened low earners in the EU for Direct taxes. Yet we get continual calls to lower it. we also i imagine (no particular numbers to back it up) have the highest rate of long term unemployment.
I bet the 10% holding the majority of wealth are not paying near the rates of tax as the 33-100k bracket. A fair level of Direct taxation in my eyes is a guaranteed minimum take home for the lower paid. and a flat rate beyond this. I can’t fathom how someone cannot see a 52% rate of direct tax is not a disincentive to earn. Not forgetting that if that were lowered the disposable income created would be gathered up in indirect taxes.
Latvia’s Woes stem from many areas outside taxation. To use their flat taxation with their population decline as a cause and effect is simply disingenuous.
You really need to get your information correct. I can’t believe that someone who is supposedly earning approx 70k would not have the intelligence to be able check some simple facts. A person earning 29k would pay
2500 (5800 – 3300 tax credits) in PAYE,
1160 in PRSI
and 1175 in USC
When factoring in the high cost of living in this country paying that much does not leave people on these wages with much left over.
Although the argument of the 51% overall tax rate being too much is a valid one it is disingenuous of you to spread false information to give credence to the argument that should get more.
This should be normality, but it’s not for many many people. That’s something that has to change, but these kinds of proposals will push things the other way.
Moan all you like about the marginal rate of income tax, the fact remains that the effective rate of income tax in this country for middle earners is closer to 30%.
All I’m hearing here is greed and shortsightedness dressed up in a victim complex, tbh.
For the people who are using the NERI institute figures as substantive evidence, have a look at the many criticisms of same in various fora.
The bottom income decile in that report earn €10k annually but spend €18k annually (hence why indirect taxes take up a large % of their income). Something fishy about that surely.
@Voodoo
You are incredibly disingenuous.
The marginal rate is real, and hits everyone who earns more than 34k unfairly.
The tax rates on earning here between 34k – 100k are the highest in Europe and are paralysing anyone trying to build a life. People who work the hardest in this economy, are the best educated, and have built careers. But see none of the benefits of their earning as it is all taken away.
Meanwhile, we are the only country in Europe not to tax incomes <29k properly. Typical for here, narrow tax base FF & PD stupid policies to buy votes.
My tax per month is over 30% before I spend a penny, and every penny I spend is taxed, VAT, Excise, Duties, etc. Every penny saved is taxed, and services are rubbish due to greedy unions.
To say I only pay 30% is total rubbish….mathematically impossible.
it all sounds interesting but can she deliver that is the question we need to ask ourselves when voting next.
Clearly not. She isn’t even running enough candidates to get a majority.
As long as it applies to social welfare payments too I’m all for it.
this would hammer anyone currently in the lower tax bracket
got a job
Do you mean the “no income tax” bracket?
Half the population paying no income tax is insane, and passes the burden onto the middle who are paying far too much.
No thanks Lucinda, bye now.
And how is she expected to do this with only a few candidates. Lucky to get even 3 tds next election. She can say whatever she wants. Might as well come out and say Renua will cure Cancer by 2017 and end World Hunger by 2018.
..and that pothole on the N24 by 2019
The pothole is there to stay. It is bigger than Ireland. In a non-literal sense.
Well if it’s in place in Romania, Latvia and Lithuania – It must be a good idea!
Smug snobby comment.
Smart arsery aside, (and indeed, Renua’s policy which I agree is crackers, aside) the Baltic states are doing quite nicely economically.
It’s interesting that all those countries were forced to endure communism and then chose this system
@Daragh McDowell,
Really, then why do we have so many of them here?
The Baltic states aren’t “doing quite nicely economically”. See: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2013/01/03/latvia-is-a-success-story-if-by-success-story-you-mean-disaster/
Also, taking Latvia as an example, the country is facing what’s been described as a “demographic disaster”, as it lost 13% of its population to emigration in a decade.
Not only that, but the EU Commission described their tax Latvia’s as “putting their credibility at risk in the face of mounting spending pressures.”
Seems to me that the people hailing the Baltics as a model are those who think they’ll benefit from these kinds of policies.
Easy promise to make.
They will never have a majority therefore will never be in a position to implement it.
It’s a bit like me promising if I’m the next president of the USA I will give everybody 1 million dollars.
Sounds good though.
Tom for president!!
The donkeys who took the 100 Euro Irish Water cashback cheque might vote for this..
The PDs managed to implement most of their policies.
Actually Tom if you suggested giving every taxpayer in Ireland say €1000 it wouldn’t be a bad idea. It would put a lot of money back in to the economy. Tom for President!
If it works so well in Latvia, Lithuania & Romania why are half the population of those countries living in Western Europe !!!!”
Why is 10 times Ireland living in America?
I notice most of them bring their mothers here as well, mum gets the dole and does the housework while they are out working.
What are you talking about?
Because we were an oppressed nation who had all our land and property stolen. I’d have left too. You don’t see a parallel?
on €30K I pay about 18% effective tax rate, so I’d be down about €1500 a year under these proposals, no thanks Looney Lucy :D
It does say: “tax rebates to low income households on a sliding scale to avoid any drastic fall in their take home pay.”
So she’s doing her best to appeal to everyone – which of course makes it unrealistic.
The looney bit seems to be projecting to collect 80% of current Income Tax levels – I can’t see how that’s sustainable.
Where is that money going to come from Joe? The Tories on this forum are forever rabbiting on about needing more tax to pay for social services but here’s one planning on creating it out of the ether. The devil is in the detail and we’re not seeing the detail.
because the high earners will actually pay 24% and not around 3% like a lot of them do now. This is never gonna get a green light. Too many people with lots of money won’t stand for it.
Will there be “millions of jobs” too?
6,999,356.53 jobs to be precise
No wonder she’s laughing in d pic with dat proposal! Also proposed are pink fluffy clouds and unicorns
Is it really that hard to write “the” and “that”?????
Is that tinker’s toenail or tinkers’ toenail??? Is it that hard
Maybe the person writing has dyslexia, or not very good at writing, or busy in work and can’t do things to suit your judgemental high horse attitude?
Oh shut up, seriously…that’s all you got??? Punctuation is one thing but “dat” isn’t even a word and it’s one letter less than “that”, “d” is a letter and you’re both idiots. Time to unsubscribe from comments now as I can see you pair at this for the day….bye bye.
Just lazy, poor writhing skills. As for the tax issue. This might be worth further analysis. As a middle income earner I’m interested. Fed up of the super wealthy and the lazy failing to make a contribution to our society.
Renua they haven’t gone away (yet)
Has anyone heard from the social Democrats? Still waiting to hear have they actually got any policies to put to the public.
Little Jim , I’d say they put their minds in gear before they put their mouths in motion.
The Social Democrats will counter Renua with an offer of a flat rate of tax of 10% for everybody in the audience.
Wow, a proposal to make the well off even better off, and there’s me believing she’d left FG.
This proposal would get my vote anyway.
Jesus, I hope you are in the significant minority. What she has proposed is a way of making it easier for the rich to get richer and the poor poorer. How on earth is that a good idea? Why on earth would we want to echo economic policies that are in place in countries like Latvia, Romania and Lithuania??
Because some people do not understand how tax works. Imagine all your wages taxed at 23 percent.@Siobhan
I’d personally be better off to some degree with this proposal than the current system, but I absolutely disagree with it. I want to live in a much more equal society than the one I’m in now, there is an awful awful lot wrong with Ireland at the minute and the last person I’d want in power is her or the other right wing vermin in her party. Things would be worse for everyone
It’s a good idea if your currently well paid but being screwed for tax to subsidise work shy layabouts
A flat tax is inherently better for those on higher incomes and increases inequality. In the example used in this article we see that the benefit for a household on 56,000 equates to 4.8% (2700/56000) while the household on 80000 gets a benefit under this system of 5.6% ( 4500/80000) . Rich get richer etc
Look y’all. If we have a low flat rate on middle to high incomes then we promise a huge chunk of net income will trickle down to the lower paid. *guffaw.
It has been shown again and again, and America is a prime example of this, that the “Trickle down” idea of wealth and taxes simply does not happen. The wealthy people simply hoard the wealth and millionaires become billionaires. The poor stay poor and crime stays high. I’d rather pay a bit more tax and be happy to walk the streets at night rather than pay less tax and be trapped in my gated estate.
less than 5% of the population earn over 70k, the vast majority are at lower levels, and then the few working hard and trying to pay bill at 50k – 70k are getting crucified with taxes.
Explain how this is fair on anyone trying to make a living?
People who work hard, are specialists and experts, deserve to keep the majority of their hard earned income, instead of the 50%+ robbery at the moment, all to subsidise removing massive amounts of people from the tax net.
Complete madness and unfair
Of all your posts robert this is the worst. you obviously dont believe that those on high incomes should pay for those services necessary for a decent society. luckily you will not get your wish. these thatcherite idiots will be gone after the next election.
What? Did you even read my posts? I said, to quote myself “… increases inequality”"…rich get richer”. I am completely against the proposals set out by Renua. Please take the time to read my two posts above.
In addition to quote my comment above ” I’d rather pay a bit more tax and be happy to walk the streets at night rather than pay less tax and be trapped in my gated estate.”
sorry for the confusion there robert it was robert cousins i was referring to.
Michael. What you’re actually saying is that those on higher incomes should in effect continue to pay for services for other people. Don’t be disingenuous. Someone on 200K now is paying a massive amount of tax that pays for their own services several times over and in reality of course, that excess money is going directly to welfare benefits and low pay supplements. Now I ask, is that a really fair system? you no doubt think the guy on 200k should pay even more and that we should take even more people out of the tax bracket altogether. What makes me laugh is people like you think those higher earners should be happy to do this out of some kind of civic responsibility.
Robert everyone in soceity in my view should contribute. If you have more you should pay more. It certainly is the case that better off people pay for services multiple times but whats the alternative? The choice is low taxes ans less services (this affects thw poor mostly) or high taxes and better services. I support the latter and I believe most other people would too. Do people wish to keep paying e800 per month for childcare or would they prefer a slight rise in income tax to support a state provided or subsidised system.
So why am I left thinking that:
1) the top earning probably wouldn’t pay anywhere near that 23% and
2) this conservative party wouldn’t be too disheartened at that prospect
whilst also thinking:
3) banana and bacon go really well together in a sandwich
Well jesus if Latvia, Romania and Lithuania are doing it then it must be a fabulous idea! They hope that there won’t be a drastic fall in the take home pay of lower earners and middle and higher earners will be much better off. Eh no thanks so lucinda. No to you, no to your party, no to your right wing policies and ideas, no to the even more unequal society you are trying to create
Renua need to renua their ideas…
Our tax system is overly technically cumbersome for taxpayers, businesses and the revenue commissioners alike.
Our whole tax system appears to be built out of loophole blocking & exceptions.
It is crying out to be simplified to make it easier & cheaper to comply at the taxpayer end and easier and cheaper to process at the revenue end meaning the cost of collection would be more efficient and lower for everyone.
But then again we wouldn’t need as many staff in the revenue commissioners so the unions will put a stop to anything sensible.
You can simplify it, but you have to have a broad tax base unless we want to repeat the same mistakes FF made.
vote buying at its most obvious. Renua are a joke. wouldn’t touch them with a bargepole. FG lite
What a ludicrous proposal. Wealthy people do not spend most of their money, they invest it so any more money put in their pockets will not trickle down as suggested. I like the phrase “to avoid any drastic fall in the income of lower paid” this suggests she may not be against some kind of a drop in the income of the lower paid at the same time she is feathering the nests of her own kind. Shameful proposal. She and the likes of her are pandering to those that vote, only when the voting majorities shift the the lower end will policy get framed for the benefit of all instead of the top few percent.
What do you define as wealthy?
It’s actually sad that she has to turn to trying to buy votes. She needs to grow up.
Yaaaaaaaay , let’s all vote for Renua !
Lucinda just go away
Pandering to their upper to middle class audience. No votes from the less well off anyway. Ireland’s wealth – poor divide set to increase.
This new political party deserves no respect imho.
Its a good idea However could never happen here too many vested interests They will all say they only care about the poor so kill any argument
Flat tax is a discredited “regressive” right-wing form of taxation.
23% is a crushing tax burden to those on minimum wages.
It is nothing to those on a million Euros per annum.
It is a de-facto transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.
It is Pete, someone on minimum wage (18k) currently pays about 4% in all income taxes. Raising it to 23% is pure madness.
Where does Renua say people on minimum wage would pay 23%?
It doesn’t.
Stop spreading lies
People on minimum wage pay no income taxes, what country are you talking about?
The solution is to get better jobs, education, training, and hard work. Minimum wage should be for students and summer jobs.
The solution is not to take my hard earned money and give it away to people who contribute nothing.
Wealth transfer ?????
That makes no sense, currently the squeezed middle are subsidising taxes that should be paid by lower income groups, that is a wealth transfer.
Low incomes paying their fair share in taxes is just paying their taxes!!!
Everyone should pay the same rate, below 100k. the more you earn the more tax you pay, fair, simple, obvious.
100% right Google!!!
Someone on 18k currently pays 4%, a combination of income tax and USC.
Someone earning 18k pays only €300 in PAYE.
USC is separate,and they would pay approx €400.
That is a total of €700 a YEAR. Has to change, that is too low, as a result I pay over 30% PAYE + USC a MONTH.
Tell me how that is fair?
I agree that the low paid should pay some level of income tax/usc but I don’t think they should pay the same % as someone earning 40k. 4% is pretty low but at 20k it’s 10% (income tax, USC and PRSI).
@Reg,
At 22k only €300 a year is paid in income tax.
At 29k only €800 a year is paid in income tax.
Those are the facts, we all pay USC and PRSI too, we are talking about income tax, and the unfair burden carried by >32k earners. Who are crucified unfairly with 52% marginal tax rates, crushing disposable incomes, and destroying any pay rises people receive, making working in Ireland seem like a exercise in working for the taxman.
All the while the vast majority of people pay little to no income tax at all.
The mind boggles..
Their policy to abolish motor tax and replace with a direct levy on fuel actually makes sense. So many taxes end up costing almost as much to police as they actually take in. The tv licence fee is another one that springs to mind.
Irish Motor Tax is one of the most unfair, inequitable, regressive taxes in the EU.
Low tax (€280 BMW) for the wealthy who can afford new cars BUT
High tax (€710 pre-2008 car) for those who cannot afford new cars.
Ireland is a disgusting place to live, under Fine Gael and Labour Government.
I will never understand this kind of short sighted and damaging right wing populism, especially outside the US.
I could be wrong, but most Irish people aren’t stupid. They know that our services are underfunded and inefficient. But they know the solution to that is not to give money disproportionately back to wealthy people. Poor people will not get as much money from this tax cut, but they’d be dramatically worse off as their services are cut back.
This is regressive taxation, pure and simple. If you’re not rich, you will be worse off.
Define wealthy people?
You could argue all day about what a wealthy person is. But I think it’s fairly reasonable to say that a family on €80,000+ is doing well for themselves. They’d be getting a huge tax cut under this plan. This kind of bracket has significant less reliance on state services also. A family making that much is more likely to not use public transport, they probably have insurance, they have more disposable income so charges associated with nominally free services don’t hurt them that much, cuts in social welfare don’t affect them. These are all things that poorer people rely on and they will get cut under this plan. And before you accuse me of class warfare, my family growing up fit into this bracket and the industry my partner and I are going into definitely exceeds the €80,000 threshold.
80,000 is not wealthy, it would be a modest income for a 2 income household, each barely above the average.
Classifying that income level as wealthy is simply wrong, and if you look at the amount of tax they pay, and how difficult it would be to live on that amount reinforces that
Sold!!!!!
And lu lu would never spoof us would she? Are those not the kind of things one says during an election? The lady wants to be reelected by hook or by crook. The latter is more apt in this case!
what about property tax only being capped for another few years and the houeshold bins moving to pay by weight at the end of this year and when water charges are forced on us and there metered with the 23% tax and those charges it will be a 35% tax rate. I d pay 35% if all them were thrown in aswell as free medical care otherwise its a gimmick to get seats from lucinda and hobbs
what a joke of a policy, what a joke of a leader, what a joke of a party.
what a horrendous idea. typical right wing nonsense. the current tax regime isn’t too bad, if only we got investment for our social contribution… while the usc is regressive, abolishing prsi is notions
“the current tax regime isn’t too bad”
When your Government takes 52% of the income you work 9-6 Mon-Fri for, that’s bad. Actually it’s not just bad. It’s immoral.
Economic policies in Lithuania doesn’t automatically mean its bad just because of its Lithuanian. It could work. However, Renua seems to forget that in Lithuania you there is no private health insurance and everyone gets equally fantastic and FREE health care and there is FREE state provided child care. Also car insurance is about 100 euros a year. Also there is no VRT and no Motor Tax, although people were paying for Metered water most of their lives. If Lucinda and Renua are able to provide Free child care and Free health care then I’m on it and she has my vote.
She wants to get rid of licence fee for RTE. Tubridy won’t like that. And what would we without the cast of Fair City. Some of them are on 100k per year.
getting my vote anyway…at least offering something back to the people…
short term untill the cap in property tax is removed and the bins go to pay by weight and we are forced to pay our water and they charge on consumption its smoke and mirrors wonder were she learned that ….
The apple didn’t fall far from the tree.
“I’m Fine Gael to the core”
The comments section here is hilarious. Barely a thread goes by when people aren’t complaining about USC, high tax burdens and tax loopholes. Then when someone comes along promising to do something about it, it’s whoa! hang on there! These people must be the devil incarnate!
this woman cannot be trusted.
Here we go with the Class word again, as far as I know we live in a Democratic Republic which means a classless society, no Lords & Ladies here just some people richer than others, so get over this British class system we are Irish.
How the hell is this a class-less society? Have you gone mental?
Just because it is an easy to understand system doesn’t mean it is a fair system of taxation.
Lmfao
It sounds good but what they fail to mention here is that Renua would require all self employed people to pay into a pension fund on top of the tax. Which I certainly can’t afford. Neither can most of the low income self employed that I know.
So Sorry Renua its a resounding NO from me.
Does Lucinda come from similar upper crust stock like Paul Murphy & Rich Boy Barrett?
From Mayo. Not that you’d know it with that ridiculous accent.
Parents are/were a teacher and a bookmaker according to Wikipedia.
I challenge anyone looking at this to put their emotions to one side and actually think this thing logical through. What are we doing this for, who does it benefit, how would it be done and who would need to be involved. Let’s not bash an use because it makes us uncomfortable .
No thank you. Renua is Ireland’s answer to the Tea Party. Policies like this have grown the super rich and forced down Irish median middle class income. Id be happy for a pay rise but it should come at the expense of the top 5% who earn almost twice that of the next 60%. Trickle down economics is as voodoo and delusional as the religious aspirations of Lucinda Creighton.
Renua… ‘PD’nua more like…
Ruinua
You’d swear income tax is like a sacred cow to the right. It’s like parish pump politics.
Sooooo the rich just get richer while the paye worker is just a little better off. Nope try again Renua.
So they have come out and nailed their Thatcherite colours to the mast. The unfairness of these proposals should be obvious. The PD party tried the same approach and it directly led to the recent recession.
When the PDs were in government with FF we saw in effect ludocrous socialist like policies where a huge section of lower paid workers were just removed from the tax net altogether. Welfare rates increased and we had major increases given to public sector workers for nothing. So would you like to try again Michael?
It’s sounds great. But can that be implimented. Are we not like 2 billion in debt and we need to keep those taxes. Don’t get me wrong I’d love it. But is it just a scam approaching election time
There’s a fair bit of work already done on this by real economists. Short answer – it looks very complicated, and the devil is very much in the details. Given their refusal to share the economic analyses, or even the economists, supposedly backing their ideas, I’d be a bit dubious.
The likely effect here in Ireland is probably a bit more income inequality, but it depends on the detail. I notice Slovakia, the poster child for flat taxes, has decided to move on from a flat tax model.
I’ll remain sceptical!
So low earners between 20 – 25k who currently get by without benefits will be forced to become welfare recipients to stop their net pay from dropping? Doesn’t sound very empowering.
Everybody in this country pays tax and has for a long time. It’s called VAT. The 14 year old kids buying burgers on their lunch break are paying 23% on them.
This plan is absurd and would be a disaster. I’m fed up with all this tax whingeing from the middle class idiots who bloody well voted for austerity to begin with.
Middle class is the engine of every economical system.
Kill them, and you’ll stall the whole system. It happened in Italy, I know what I’m talking about.
And you solution is what Paul? Have middle and higher income earners just pay more and more money to the lower paid and welfare recipients? Just continue to reach into the pockets of the successful?
makes a lit of sense
Flat rate tax on all earnings of 23%? Just another reason not to vote for these people. Awful idea, unless you happen to be a very well paying job.
Have any of you ever seen that TV series “V”? Remember, the reptiles from space posing as human-like? They all had broad, toothy smiles :-D
Finally, this might actually encourage me to move back to Ireland!!!
If you’re only coming back because we’re bribing you, feel free to stay put.
Alternative headline:
Renua announces massive tax break for the wealthy, massive tax hike for poor and young people.
They say anything to get elected like the other bunches of E.U. grapes?
3400 people signed the Car Tax Petition …. all happy with Renua proposal to scrap the “Disgusting” Irish Car Tax System. https://www.change.org/p/reform-the-grossly-unjust-irish-car-tax-law
I see…..so again, you think those contributing the most to the economy, should be penalised further even though they buy more environmentally friendly cars and even though buying new, they hand over a massive chunk of VRT AND VAT so already contribute large amounts to the exchequer? You want to punish them more, so auld Paddy can drive his 02 CO2 belching machine and pay shag all in tax. Same as water, same as property, same as income….it’s always the other guy who should be paying for everyone else eh?
Large amounts of VRT and VAT were also paid by the drivers of 2002 cars when they were purchased.
So they are now the milk cow that should keep on giving………….
Clearly a tax related to consumption is a fairer way.
Tax systems should be fair. In our society a progressive tax works. It taxes all in relation their ability to pay.
Tax on fuel is a simple way to do that. Burn more = pay more.
D.
€280 annual Car Tax for those who can afford NEW CARS.
€710 annual Car Tax for those who cannot afford NEW CARS.
€430 balance siphoned off to Irish Water to further subsidise the wealthy new car owners.
…. pull the other one!
Irish voters dont always bring their brains to the Polling Booths but they will bring their wallets next time!
Of they was ever a doubt in our minds that this is a party of rightist sh!te mongers, well now it has become crustal clear. These people want a world where only the rich has access to health care, where the upper crust gets fatter on the masses trying to survive on zero-hour contracts. They want a world where kids will be crammed into prefab classrooms built in the 90s taught by teachers who cannot give each child the attention he or she needs. Their children will be attending private schools in leafy suburbs. A disgusting bunch of snobbish, elitist, self-serving spin doctors led by a woman who once said “There are two men in my life, my husband and my taoiseach”. Having ditched her Führer because he didn’t share her 1950s lovely-Ireland vision, she has put together this patchwork of lunacy.
if*
Eddie & Lucinda
Tax on Family Homes (site) ….wrong answer.
High Tax on second houses ….right answer.
Family Homes are not wealth … cant earn a revenue stream from them.
Family Homes are not assets … cant liquidate them …no where to live.
Family Homes are not property … like farm land …which is UNTAXED.
Pie in the sky policies from Renua ,Who will jump into back into bed with Fine Gael to get power ,Funny how Miss well off agreed with every austerity measure when she was in government ,Those of us on average industrial wage pay for everything and entitled to nothing ,,The wealthy will have their tax reduced with all the tax breaks ,Those who will not work will scam same as usual , and many more will work in the black economy and pay nothing while claiming their benefits ,Those of us who get up each morning and work all week will continue to carry the burden with tax after tax and God help you if you get seriously ill ,as you will not be entitled to g.p. card or medical card ,Its a great little country for some ,
Going on the majority of that comment I would have thought a 23% income tax would appeal to you?
If those on low incomes have fair rebates, I would support these new ideas if we can support work, making it pay for all. Avoiding black market and motivating all to put in the extra shift knowing the tax take won’t take majority of pay
“A couple earning a combined income of €100,9000 would be €15,856 better off.” says it all !
She has said herself that those on low pay are going to be worse off – yet she is stupid churning ahead with it.
It just goes to show how much she cares to only a upper level of society more.
It’s so easy to manipulate so many Irish citizens. So many people wouldn’t do any conscientious research to find out what level of income results in what actual tax liability (how people don’t even apparently know what percentage of direct and indirect tax they pay is incredible). It’s just so much easier to let programmed attitudes and conditioned emotions vent and get exploited by politicians hitting their buttons. The research into what income, tax, wealth distribution, poverty and economic and social policy is and can be is already out their from multiple sources. People mainly want to hear and read what already conforms to their attitudes and what feeds their emotions. It takes more time and effort to do the research and to recognise what prejudices are in place in ourselves. It’s why we have a consistently inadequate debate about our society and politics and why we make consistently poor choices. Politicians are aware of all of this.
Motor tax scrapped excellent idea put fuel levy on more you use car the more you pay.SPSV and transport companies can claim half of it back
tv licence change to broadcast licence same price but added onto tv/internet bill collected by providers €3.07 per week
Earning tax free up €15000
Health tax 5% earnings over €15000
Flat tax of 25% earnings over €15000 over €100000 extra 8%
Vat cut to 20%
L.P.T every house pays €1000 free refuse collection,schools and water fees and other local amenities.
have not worked out figures as i am not an accountant. But it seems fairer
Many do not use RTE (biased) services of any description – why should they be walloped for them?
Like every other decent digital station – make it pay per view also.
‘Internet tax’ – Why government tax people on something (a) the state does not own? (b) does NOT have a say as to what its content is and (c) is also like Lucinda’s fantasy taxes, is not based on ability to pay and also hits the low paid harder!
Its more Fine Gael methodology rubbish PR spun so the more wealthy are better off – while the average worker is walloped more.
Absolute crap.
The figures in the table are wrong. Someone on 35,000 paying tax at 23% would have a take home pay of 26,950. Those on 40,000 would take home 30,800. Am I missing something here?
have your say