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MICHEÁL MARTIN HAS called for all political parties to agree on substantial Dáil reforms over the next month – before negotiations on a new government get underway.
The Fianna Fáil leader, whose party has more than doubled its number of seats in this election, has issued a lengthy statement this evening saying the failure to implement political reform is “one of the biggest broken promises of the outgoing government”.
Martin wants a working group involving all parties and groupings elected to the 32nd Dáil established over the next month to discuss the reforms and for them to be implemented before negotiations on a new government begin.
He said the reform measures should focus on making the house more independent of government, including establishing an independent budget office, an independent legal adviser and limiting the guillotining of legislation.
“We believe that the new Dáil should not represent more business as usual – that it should involve a decisive move towards a reformed politics,” Martin said.
This should be addressed immediately and before the process of forming a new government is proceeded with. The next government should take up office subject to a reformed Dáil rather than leaving reform in the hands of that government.
Martin said that Fianna Fáil has a won “a substantial mandate” for its programme having secured the largest increase in first preference votes.
He added: “However we also acknowledge that every one of the 158 members of the new Dáil carry their own mandate which should be respected.”
TheJournal Politics / TwitterFianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin has just issued this statement #GE16 pic.twitter.com/tQ8ymW8BFq
— TheJournal Politics (@TJ_Politics) February 29, 2016
Amid widespread expectation that it will take many weeks to reach a definitive outcome on the next government, Martin noted that the Constitution ensures “governmental continuity”.
The existing Fine Gael-Labour coalition will remain in place and the cabinet meets tomorrow. Even though some of its members are no longer TDs, they will remain ministers until their replacements are appointed by the next Taoiseach.
The 32nd Dáil sits for the first time on Thursday, 10 March with Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin currently expected to put forward their respective party leaders as nominees for Taoiseach.
In the likely event of a stalemate, with no Taoiseach elected, the current government will remain on in a caretaker role while talks between the parties continue.
Martin said that reforms should be initiated on a cross-party basis before talks on the make-up of the next govenrment advance.
The re-elected Cork South Central TD said his party will put forward initiatives it has previously outlined including:
Martin said that once groupings are finalised after all 158 Dáil seats are filled, each one should nominate a member to a working group.
“They would be given a fortnight to agree core principles and asked to agree in-principle changes which would be adopted by Dáil Éireann,” he explained.
“Fianna Fáil has heard the electorate and its demand for fundamental change. We are responding to that demand in a constructive and positive way.”
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Another thing that is needed is for the Ceann Comhairle to ensure ministers actually answer questions properly. Shocking carry on this last dail
won’t happen either, back to same old tricks in 6 months.
How about Mehole..taking a good, long, hard look at you and your fellow politicians salaries and the disgraceful way yer pensions are paid when ye leave office while the rest of us have to work well into our 60′s to get a fraction of what ye get?
The most important omission from the list is for an independent Ceann Comhairle selected at the beginning of each new Dail by the TDs not by the government of the day.
To often in the past the office has been used as a reward or consolation prize.
Ceann Comhairle last Dail was a disgrace
Ceann Comhairle is to be elected by secret ballot this time, hopefully they’ll pick someone better than the last hack.
@ Ben Gunn The CC IS selected by the TDs of the Dail, not just the government, but given that the government usually has a majority, effectively that means the government picks him. Might be different this time, though usually no party with potential skin in the game is willing to give up a TD to take the CC spot. So it’s usually an old-timer from the majority party who does it to make sure he gets re-elected (automatically) the next time. Agree Barrett was awful in the last Dail.
Totally agree the last chair was very poor
What’s what the ‘ye’ s**t?
TDs now have to wait until retirement age for pensions Tony. This was changed several years ago by the current government.
It should never be a ‘Chairman’s’ job to ensure people answer questions properly. It is his job to lay out the order of business and make sure that rules of the house are adhered to.
Micheal Martin is right to seek reforms, in a democracy there should be a proper question and answer policy from all sectors of the Dail and a structure of voting.
The Westminster parliament is far more democratic in this regard.
Chris the chairman shouldn’t interrupt the opposition and continually tell them ‘question please’ and then allow the gov to make a number of political points which had nothing to do with the topic and in the end not answer the question. Chairman should be impartial and this was clearly not the case recently
Sickened to find out that Barrett (####) got automatically re-elected.
I’d like to see the Dáil bars closed. It’s absolutely not appropriate for TD’s to be drinking during work and especially when they’re debating important legislation that impacts thousands of people.
If i was a TD i would live in there. Get a pool table, Dart board, a couple of poker machines, satellite tv for football and one of those machines for the toasted specials sandwiches. . Sorted.
He talks a great deal of sense. It is time for reform. And now is the time to do it.
and sure they all do. sure aint talking great. they did a lot of talking 5 years ago and look what happened. we voted in worse and this is back to same old. actions speak louder but you won’t get much of it here.
I just really hope there’s substance behind this and its not solely for political gain
So let’s have actions Paudi. Why dismiss this without at least trying?
Fool me once n all that. More chance of Ireland winning the Euros than reform from this lot.
I like your mindset, but i thought that when i gave SF no.1 cos we have never tried it. We’ve tried these 3 civil war parties every way and anyway, this aint change, its the same thing if not worse. A power struggle emerges far worse than FG/Labour.
FF were getting voted in this time because they said they’d dismantle IW, now thats a big issue, Still keeping that promise Martin or will we have to wait for 2 years and delay after delay at huge costs then to say “sorry can’t be done”.
The EU rule this country, these are puppets, not else.
Well, we’ve all witnessed the dramatic reform in the Seanad.
I wish Sinn Fein would get rid of the dead wood within the party. I also wish they would clarify who they think the rich are? A family earning 100k gross ain’t rich. Sort those two things out and I’ll give them the nod next time as I’m sick of listening to Kenny and Co. And as for FF taking the moral high ground, it’s making me sick.
Holy shit. Am I right in thinking that this can’t not happen now, selfish or not if this finally means a functioning parliament with real teeth, then bravo. Lets do it.
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/fianna-fail-in-pledges-to-scrap-irish-water-and-build-45000-social-homes-34370482.html
https://www.fiannafail.ie/game-is-up-for-irish-water-ff/
FF were voted in now to fix that, lets see how they fair, the same fate as Labour if not worse because they messed it up just over 7 years ago. I can actually see IW bills getting higher now. Enjoy!
They aren’t the biggest party Paudi. Don’t be getting ahead of yourself!
Fianna Fáil would rule the country as they would the county councils, all with cosy back room deals.
I can’t believe anyone sees this as reform , simply a cop out based on the need to watch Sinn Fein
ahem!!! Willie O Dea, stated on RTE yesterday that “they’d get rid of Irish Water”! But he was non committal about water charges……….. The devil is in the detail!!
Rob C… it certainly does make sense to talk of reform, but the kind of reform he has listed is far too narrow and not even close to what the electorate want or what they voted for. Cronyism, Ministerial Salaries / Pensions, Jobs, Homelessness, Irish Water and how it came into being, HSE, Gardai, and for heavens sake remove ministers who are clearly not performing. And lots more. We want REAL REFORM not token gestures and let’s see if the smaller parties raise the issues they raised when knocking on our doors.
To be fair, paying (even again) for water wasn’t the issue for me, IW and the privatisation agenda were..
The fact that, it’s the third time (I think) , that water charges have been introduced, then they were abandoned in favour of an increase in PAYE, again with an increase in MOTOR TAX, and we were led to believe that our PROPERTY TAX, was paying for our services, including water. Then a separate entity was set up, prime for privatisation, is what annoys me. 1% here, 5% there (will pay for water) and then property tax for “services” (except water)..! That was the “stroke” that the electorate see through….. The electorate are a lot more intelligent than the government thought!!
Wille spent the whole interview telling a Sinn Fein T.d. That he or Fianna Fáil wouldn’t fall into a Sinn Fein trap by going into government with Fine Gael and allowing Sinn Fein to be effectively the leaders of opposition . O’Brion I think smiled roundly at this , what Martin is proposing is just a reflection of this game , but of course we have heard the electorate and we are the party of reform is the spin on the bold Willies honesty today , national interest in the mind of Fianna Fáil, has ever been is now and will only ever be in Fianna Fáil interest.
I guess because we’ve had broken promises before jane
I know Michael but what is there to lose in this? Worse case scenario we have another election which is a possibility anyway. Once the process starts it’ll become clear if FF are serious about it and if they’re not the other parties won’t be long telling us. Surely it’s worth trying.
Sean I saw that interview and when Eamon O’Cuiv suggested something along these lines and Willie O’Dea agreed O’Broin smirked and derided the notion. Boyd Barrett on the other hand agreed something like this was needed and looked very pragmatic. Same on Matt Cooper this evening, you could hear the frustration in O’Broins voice, this just isn’t the way it was suppose to go.
Worth trying but……I just don’t trust them
I don’t think any of them are trustworthy and they have each other there as watchdogs. If a sniff of insincerity is gotten they’ll be out in their droves to tell us and then the insincere ones get kicked at the next election. Win win.
I agree Jane , however Sinn Fein have asked people continually to trust them , other parties played into their hand by dragging up the troubles etc during the campaign , they like to play the toxic victim excluded party , who no one will pass the ball too, we’ll give them the ball and now they won’t play it , they really are like the sulky child .
Reform = an end to corruption, cronyism, tenders been done in a proper manner, stop using RTE as the governments mouthpiece and of course no more favours for the man in Malta.
That is the reform we all want.
Why would anybody vote down that comment???
Martin, if FF are really serious about corruption they would look at something like the anti corruption agency the Doc Dems proposed.
Well said
That might get him the crown. Well played. Kenny has just lost his queen in this game.
Is he not just shaping up to eventually back a minority FG government? That’s what it sounds like to me.
A 5 year old could beat Enda in the 3 move checkmate.
Yeah, he is. Fianna Fáil are the only ones seeing things clearly. All the rest are in the slow lane. From watchin it over the weekend it seems that their strategist Sean Dorgan is very sharp. Fine Gael guys are in hiding licking their wounds.
Criticising Kennys intelligence by claiming a kid could beat Kenny in chess in THREE moves. Ya don’t come off sounding that sharp either my friend
Glad you can see the spinning of Sean Dorgan, something f the night about that fellow
He’s just played his hand and it’s a good one…..he’s in effect saying he will allow FG to govern as minority government but only under the rules he and FF set on a reformed Dail.
That’s FF cute hoorism at it’s very best.
He is putting the responsibility onto the other parties as well Robert. He is inviting them in because the electorate want change.
Probably a mistake to wheel out Bertie so soon after the result ,they wisely kept him under wraps prior to the results .if there’s another election soon his resurfacing could backfire badly .
Guess the 2 party coalition is on the cards so that’ll be promise number 1 broken for both .
Caretaker government and dowager Kenny in the “interregnum” as he described the time between now and the next government .
I don’t see how supporting a FG minority government but not being within or of that government would work. The electorate will blame FF if FG continue in the same vein with tacit approval from FF. They can’t pretend that they were not involved if they are the only thing propping FG up. On the other side if things go well for a minority FG government then I’m not sure FF would be given much of the credit.
It would work in the way it has worked in some European countries. FG would govern but only under consultation and approval by FF. So FF could strike down anything unpopular and would appear to be the ones keeping the reigns on FG. So all budgets would have to be approved by FF and you can bet your life FF would be making populist moves the whole time, portraying themselves as the guardians of the poor.
The biggest reform required is in our electoral process. The idea that a constituency elects a member to the national parliament base don a promise to get a new school or fix the main road is laughable. If we want to fix all the wrongs in society we need to address this. For example a politician from Foxrock may have differing views on budgetary issues than a politician of the same party from Ballymun, as such how can any political party make genuine social reforms when they pandering to members with parochial demands. Until we can take the parish out of national politics we haven’t a chance of getting real reform as a nation.
transfers don’t make sense either, says who? did the voters tell them they could transfer to whoever they liked? a sham
The D’Hondt method seems the best way to get dramatic reform required. A party nominates people to run in a constituency, you vote for the party based on the national policies and the seats are distributed between the parties based on percentage of the vote. At least this way voters are urged to vote for the party which has the best national policies rather than the individual who will get you a medical card. So much TD time wasted dealing with personal or Local Council level issues when they should be busy making decisions in the national interest. However, we keep electing the individuals who only serve the area and not the state so we shouldn’t complain.
I dislike all the major parties… But this makes sense. The Dail has become a joke with TDs powerless. Cabinet rams laws thru the Dail.. Time has come for this.. I am cynical as the next but perhaps the last GE whipping and this one has had an impact… Finally…
i was just told that someone loves enda and voted for 2 FG candidates in their area because… they didnt want to vote for anyone who would abolish the water charges or property tax after they’ve paid cos they ‘think’ they wouldn’t get it back and seemed unfair. Aint that some logic to vote for the same again? hahahahaha. Thats what you’re dealing with, short sighted buffoons.
Paudi. You fell for that ??? Haha
nope, now wait for FF to dismantled Kelly and Hogans monster. That will be their first fail of government. It will be like Labour “ah but we couldn’t make all those promises we made after we lied”.
Make no mistake FF got a larger amount of votes over the IW issue. Especially from rural Ireland. Now do the job and bury it or in 5 years time they’ll be out again. One lie leads to more lies and we all know FF are fair handy at that too.
It is unfair that people who pay tax are treated worse than tax evaders. People deciding tax wasn’t for them is a long problem in ireland. It doesn’t make you noble not to pay tax you disagree with.
Dismantling Irish Water would be a serious mistake. It’s a lot cheaper to run a single utility than 34 local authorities providing water. Breaking it up again would be totally idiotic.
Well hey, that’s populism.
You’re speaking too soon for FF there Old, i’ll wait to hear those exact words from Martin which will come out like you said but is not exactly what he said before the voting started. Thats why you’re getting more lies over the next 5 years. Crooks. Expect SF to do rings around that one from across the chamber because that right there is why FF got more votes this time, its like 5 years ago again. Lisbon for jobs! Worse! Burn the bondholders! Worse! Nothing happened. Do a bank deal! Worse, we bailed out Europe! cos Enda didnt have the b*lls to even try.
Sorry, but voting in liars on false promises is not good, its cheating.
They can do what they wish with “Irish water”, it makes no difference to me. I will NEVER ACCEPT THIS CORRUPT ATTEMPT TO PRIVATISE OUR WATER SUPPLY.
I will never let a rich man profit from the water we bathe our children in.
100 years ago people died for this country and today our representatives are trying to strip us of our water. One word for them, Tr@itors
I’ll pay water charges the day the ownership of said water is fully protected.
And in the distance… A pig flys…
His first move as Taoiseach in waiting. Clever move.
Ah ha ha ff have no ideas so they want everybody else’s ideas if ff dont know by now what reforms are needed well then they shouldn’t be in government.ff are good at stealing other groups ideas.ff there is only one thing to do and that is to tell the banksters that we cant afford to pay back that 64billion for speculators and bond holders private gambling deals then I will forgive you..
Meanwhile Irelands cost of borrowing will go up without a stable government elected.
There was no change on the cost of borrowing this morning for Ireland…. This just confirms, no matter what government is in place, the ECB holds the purse strings…
I’m saying will go up… it means in the future…
Hung parliaments are historically the most democratic as they deliver the fairest outcomes
Absolute tosh. Belgium went a year without a government and costs did not rise and the world didnt end. Reforming the Dail would be a good use of a month without government.
His motives maybe obvious for making such a statement but whatever way you look at it you will have to agree that it makes perfect sense.
He is putting it out to all parties – time for the left and SF to grow up.
Much as I may personally disagree with it, there’s no denying the Left have been given a massive mandate. Therefore, to see them encouraging a FF/FG coalition – the parties of so-called “austerity” – rather than accepting the responsibility of governing, is pretty insulting to their constituents.
They have a real opportunity to effect change (again, not necessarily change *I* want) but they’re refusing to take it for their own political ends.
It certainly looks that way Search Eagle but this is really putting it up to them and I think we’ll see who really has the electorate at heart.
Lads, ye are fooling no one.
I honestly think Micheal Martin can make a good Taoiseach. Saying that I thought Enda would be too
Better stack up on brown envelopes
Big chance here to start a change,Kenny hasn’t got the balls to do it being in certain people’s pockets.Irish media needs a big kick first to inform without bias then change may start from there.
Great. One measly govt term after they were unceremoniously and deservedly kicked out, after ruining the country, and now FF’s Saint Micheál is already telling the rest of the Dáil what to do.
FG never learned their lesson about FF. FF are the original cute hoors.
Outgoing government got their answer at the weekend, every other party and independents should go into government together, and respect each other, verbal thuggery should never more be tolerated in the next government. Just a thought !
Big-time. Everyone but the ultra right wing FG should try to make it work.
SF out of the blocks rejecting the proposals. Laughable.
I’m not SF Patlyndo but I see this as a strategic political move by FF. If FF were such champions of reform we would have heard about it long before. Their actions while in government were all anti reform. It’s just political maneuvering and can’t be trusted or believed
Let’s be realistic!! Fine Gael, Fine Fail and labour… (I count labour as an established party, with a a more right wing agenda, based on their performance over the last 5yrs), could not countenance the fact that the Shinners could be the leader of the opposition!! This is why M Martin has extended a partial olive branch to Fine Gael so that they have at least one point to agree on!! Dail reform is the lowest common denomitor that they can agree on…. Once they have agreement on that they can find common ground on other issues. But do not be mistaken, ….. They have one common agenda!!!! They don’t want the Shinners as the majority opposition, and neither do they want them to govern!! It’s basically a ruse!! Keep the Shinners out…. At all costs!!
The Shinners are hardly a threat though Colm. They’ll have half the seats of FF and FG. Even if they kept the growth rate of 50+% it would still take them two full elections just to get to 50 seats. And it’s questionable if they could grow to that total as the working class vote is not that big and the SocDems will also grow and Labour will probably come back. If they ever want real power, they will have to court the middle class somehow.
Michael I am no fan of FF but do you not think that SF are playing their strategy here too?
At least the proposal is to invite those who claim that they want change into the mix this is how the left and SF can adopt the change that they want.
They doubled their vote last week!! Apathy towards the civil war parties had a part to play in the rise of the Shinners…. If, (like me) I watched the tallies, you’d seen that in each cosituancy, sien fein candidates were eliminated on pretty much the last count!!! Or second last.!! They’re a patient party, working from the bottom up.. They’re organised, with a long term strategy. The focus has changed from a protest party to one that can govern!! I reckon that when the old guard retire / stand down people will look at them as a credible opposition.. Enda kenny would no longer be able to say “sure Mr Adams, you were a member of the IRA”!! No excuses then!!
Patlyndo, I’m not sure what SF’s strategy is except to stay in opposition and criticise from the sidelines. But this token reform agenda by FF is meant to put pressure on FG and not SF and the left as far as I can see
I’m not a supporter of sien fein, but I do recognise the fact. That they’re organised, they have a strategy and they have plans for the next election….. fine Gael and Fine Fial, are trying to hang on to their identity, but
Isn’t that the problem Colm. SF have a strategy and its all about the next election. What about the homeless, unemployed etc in the interim?
They didn’t double their vote Colm……a rise of 50% is not doubling! A rise of 100% would be double. And in each constituency eliminated at the last count? Well that’s patently not true and you know it.
Colm, FF are very well organised as well. More so even than SF. That’s part of the reason they came back, commentators said the extraordinary work they did on the ground in the constituencies by the grassroots. FF have always been brilliantly organised.
It’s all spin. Too much money from big business to make any of this ever happen .and don’t forget the cushy jobs that fallow after thy retire from public office
yep, all spin. sick of voting, may wait till we have a much larger lower class to get the rich boys out and that day is coming unless they can make most of us happy. they have some amount of housing issues to face. good luck with housing them all, ye brought it on.
. . 2nd time trying to post.
Paudie, it’s coming. In the future, Automation is going to make vast percentages of people surplus to the requirements of employment.
Wealth distribution is going to be a necessity to maintain social order. .
2nd time trying to post
Can’t take his ‘reform’ seriously after he topped up his salary last year by 30k for no apparent reason while people were getting f**ked out of their homes. He’s a fraud just in it for the money and nothing else.
Well that’s a very good and sensible idea…but also very smart on Martins behalf. When inevitably they can’t agree to form a Government, a reformed Dail will stand well to Martin and may well get his party elected into majority Government.
We should consider a power sharing executive where each party gets ministerial portfolios related to their representation in the Dail. If FG have 30% of deputies they get 30% of ministries, FF 25%, SF 15% and so on. It may have more transparency and accountability than the current system.
This is a move to stay in opposition out of fear of the backlash next time and Sinn Féin benefiting. Letting FG keep government benches warm too, trying to safeguard all sides
Delaying tactics – no more no less.
Does anyone remember the late Frank Kelly’s version of Lanigan’s Ball? Where he parodied FF and the constant shuffling of FF at the time, the arms trial etc, “Charlie stepped in and Boland stepped out again”. I remember it well as a kid. It’s like that now. Huge reshuffles will happen over the next number of months….
won’t happen. ye will be getting the exact same as ye already got and make no mistake, getting rid of labour wasn’t even enough, they had less power than FG. Its all of these 3 parties that will bring you the same if not worse.
was there even any point in an election? nope. as long as the EU have their say, nothings changing here.
With shootings all over the place, taxpayers funding garda to protect them, crap sentences, no deporting for criminals who haven’t even a right to be here all at the cost of the taxpayer.
Is Michael still getting his teachers pension??
That is Leadership. 1st to go should be the The Economic Management Council (EMC) That was never democratic after that the Guillotine system which FG & Labour used at least 56 times even with the majority they had. By the way that was how they introduced Irish Water legislation and not too sure but I think they also landed the state with massive private dept.
Maybe do a report on it. He still thinks he is running the HSE
The man’s an expert in setting up reports and tribunals, the elections not even over and he’s back to his old self racking up more expensive paperwork for his creed.how about he pays for it himself, we’d see a much more measured approach then.
He set up the HSE. He’s an expert at jobs for the boys.
I’m a bit shocked at comments. He has proposed doing what a lot of people wanted. This could be the perfect time to do it too. And people are still complaining? I get that 76% of people didn’t vote FF. But 24% did, we are in a democracy, they are clearly wanted by by some and are not going anywhere, so if they are proposing this, why not support it? If Kenny and co manage to wrangle together something, reform will not happen at all.
Seems to me the left just want to complain no matter what is on offer, even if it is a good thing.
Exactly. What he’s saying is let’s get the rules straight before we start this new game. because we can’t depend on whoever the new party in charge are to do that once they get into power. And that whether we like it or not the distribution of TD’s from independent to larger party’s isn’t going to change by much and they have to be prepared to proceed as is. The people have spoken. So who is listening.
I’m laughing at these comments too.
On this site, they’ve spent the last 5 years complaining about the lack of reform.
MM gets the ball rolling and says that there should be all party talks about reform and the commentators on here go ballistic in the opposite direction to their stance over the past 5 years.
Sometime the Journal comments section eats itself, we are witnessing it again here now.
And you think that he has a good track record as a person to believe Danny ?
I.m not left Noel and I just don’t believe him
And why did you cast your vote Michael? For the left to sit in opposition for 5 years?
Just said that I didn’t vote left Patlyndo
He’s not saying that he will reform. He is asking all elected parties to open talks on it. What is wrong with that? Do you think he’ll get them all in a room and they say “ah ha! I’ve tricked you, I don’t want reform, I just want my pension, mwahahaha!”. Is that what you think the outcome of this will be?
FINALLY! They are offering reform that could potentially have a shot, what everyone has been crying for and you still all begrudge.
I really don’t rate Enda Kenny, I think he’s one of the worst leaders of FG in the last 30 years. But he was right about one thing. There are some amount of whingers who wouldn’t know sunshine if they seen it.
We have been ill served by FF, FG and Labour.
The combined voting share of all three conservative parties has declined. It has even declined more when you add in the PDs in the past.
The point is that as the right loses traction, the far left continues to be so fractured, we may see a more social democratic tradition emerge as a centre left position.
Social justice and a just society are important. We need to address pressing social type issue, such as health, housing and education as well as community supports. Social exclusion, social decay and erosion of necessary public services will not build a thriving society.
The electorate is entitled to keep voting for FF and FG and even interchangeably so, but the electirate should not be surprised if the same results keep repeating.
Six of one and a half dozen of the others.
The differences between FG and FF are primarily differences of tradition, partly of culture and history, and very little ideological difference.
FG and FF, Punch and Judy, etc. They row, they fight, they lacerate each other but they deliver similar results.
As we vote, so shall we sow.
Well we know that Fiona. Either FF or FG have always been in power. Why now all the interest in reform. One trying to upstage the other in taking the moral high ground and battling it out for the post of Taoiseach. Clash of clans. Let them join forces and be done with it, they are both the same anyway, 2 become 1 and then let there be a proper left / right divide in politics.
Absolutely, Watersedge, but I think that the historical enmity between FG and FF gives them both more electoral support than if FG and FF merged, doing the decent and honourable thing. The opposition between FG and FF is a false dichotomy because there is no real difference.
I would welcome a real left and right divide in Irish politics.
Radical individualism and neoliberalism ( protective of capitalism and the banks) divided from parties with a social conscience, those a notion of a just and fair society. Reactionary regressives balanced against progressive reformists.
Those of us with of a more individualist stance are “regressive” now?
It’s not *us* calling for a church wedded firmly to a State, nor for the State’s clutches to extend over difficult decisions about pregnancy, or on the other side for “safe spaces”, molly-cuddling and censorship.
Believe it or not, you can believe in a “fair and just” society, and believe that the best way to achieve it isn’t through mediocre public education delivered by puffed teachers on ludicrous salaries, nor welfare that punishes those who’ve worked hardest, nor slashing capital expenditure to fund public sector largesse, nor propping up failed banks, nor indulging special interest groups.
Hear bloody hear SE.
That they are anywhere near power makes me sick! You people are idiots!
You got it Spoddgy, people are easily fooled
I’m not a FG supporter but why is Micky Martin shooting his mouth of, FG are still the biggest party and Micky is talking as if he has a majority. No doubt he has Bertie cleaning his anorak ready for the big come back
John Cross you don’t need reminding but Fianna Fail have doubled their deputies and Kenny has lost 29 deputies.
FG thinks FF is wrong.
FF thinks that FG is wrong.
Perhaps both FG and FF are wrong.
Here we go again more committees and independent bodies more cronyism from Martin and FF…he said that he listened to the people I live in his constituency never say him once and my neighbours in 5 Years and that goes for all candidates who ran in my area not one called to our doors and give us the voters the dignity to hear our views and engage with us✍
Cute hoore politics at its finest.
He has put the ball in FGs court, if FG object, they will be objecting to fore filling a big promises they themselves made, and objecting to ending corruption and cronyism, which will really show their true colours and seriously grate with the voters.
If FG agree, it was all FFs big idea and makes it look as if FF are the ones in the driving seat and running the show, and make FG look weak, which will make people more likely to switch back to FF.
FF are playing the long game here, they know there will be another general election by the end of the year, and have already started their election campaign with this opening salvo, .
Brian don’t under estimate Kenny. He could agree to everything and then implement nothing (or a watered down version) because it would be against the constitution or some other reason
That could also work the other way around, Mehole Martian gets what he wants, then picks a fight on something else to walk away (Irish water perhaps), Kenny will look like he has been played for a fool.
FG are on the back foot already, their loses in this election have been massive, and unless FG actually start living up to their own hype, more and more voters will go back to FF (not me I hasten to add, I think they are both two ends of the same turd.).
What about having a whistleblower, if and when the Banks get ahead of themselves! The Central Bank should be that whistleblower. Martin talks sense, and if he means what he says, we should be ok.
That’s a very big IF Orla
Well if we are in the spirit of reforming the Dáil, here are a few more ideas.
(1) Reduce the Dáil to 100 members
(2) Elections for the Dáil to be held on the basis of a single national constituency. No more electing people who fix local potholes and have no interest in national government. People will rank their top 10 choices & STV used to fill seats. The national parliament will be elected on a national basis.
(3) 20% of the Dáil seats to be chosen by sortition – in other words, 20 twenty TDs selected at random from the general population. Sortition TDs will serve for one year and be replaced by new TDs chosen by sortition, kind of like an extended jury duty. Sorititon TDs are to be paid the same as elected TDs for their year of service. Employers must keep jobs for those selected while they serve. Only restriction on sortition TDs is that they are at least 18 years old and have never been elected to the Dáil.
(4) Seanad elections to be reformed. Ireland to be divided evenly (geographically, rather than based on population) into 30 electoral regions & each region will elect two representatives, leaving 60 senators total. Elections for the Seanad will take place at the same time as local government elections.
(5) Term limits in both the Dáil and the Seanad. Let’s say 12 years. Spare me the talk we need politicians with “experience” – the main experience politicians have is in winning elections, and that is what we need to change. Civil servants do the bulk of policy making anyway. The problem with career politicians is that they ultimately make decisions that keep them in power, rather than make decisions for the benefit of the country.
(6) Abolish Dáil pensions. A generous pension contribution will be paid into a private pension fund for the duration of service, capped at 12 years. After that, the politicians are on their own. Employers must hold a job for anyone elected to the Dáil or Seanad, so they can return to work once their service is complete. In short, we create a climate where people take a career break to serve their country, not make a career out of being a politician.
(7) Tougher laws and penalties to tackle potential corruption among those elected or chosen to serve – a strong deterrent to stop people feathering their nest while in power.
Now that’s reform Talley….I won’t hold my breath
Well it would be the equivalent of asking turkeys to vote for Christmas to expect our current politicians to make it happen!
Agreed 100%..real proper reforms..and would add a ban on TDs entering the seanad for at least 5 yrs after losing a seat..and a ban on sitting senators running for the dail for the same 5 yrs after leaving the seanad..
Good point Kieran – I suppose what I was thinking that you could only serve in either one or the other for a combined 12 year maximum.
Clever, clever move by Mihole. No matter what you think of him, he’s proving himself as a consummate politician
It’s a masterstroke. He’s got in there first ahead of the others and caught them by surprise. It’s out there now and anyone complaining will be seen as blocking reform….
Careful now, earlier comments to this effect were deleted
Yeah Em its just clever political maneuvering but i don’t believe or trust it
I’m with you Michael. I don’t trust him as far as I could throw him but that’s an example of political manoeuvring at its best
It is clever Em because he knows that people are so easily fooled again and again and…
a proactive proposition maybe there is hope for democracy and us yet! good man Michael Martin
Ultimately, it would be great to just rip the book up and start again. Look at Switzerland, maybe the most democratic country in the world. The Cantons all have huge democratic involvement by the people and then they have the Federal Council made up of the canton representatives governing the country. Any citizen can bring a bill forward. Just get 10,000 signatures and the country votes on it. You want to change something in the constitution? Just get 100K signatures and it goes to vote. At the town, village level they vote on everything.
We should look at devolving more power to either larger administrative councils or to the Provinces (a form of Eire Nua) and let Dublin be a separate jurisdiction with a proper elected Mayor with real power. It would stop the parish pump BS as you’d have a proper Federal like structure with elected representatives from the provinces put forward to run the country in a Federal like structure.
Well now someone has put on his big boy pants for a trip up the high Road. But in essence the it’s the first real gesture of authentic change toward a modern government that is preparing to listen (at least in theory by its own new dail rules) to its independent/left TD’s nominated by the people. First leader to step up to the mark and answer the worrisome question of how do you run a country with a rainbow government. Not a FF fan but am slightly impressed.
We don’t need half the amount of TD’S for a start. Give local councils more autonomy if people are worried about local issues. But in terms of running the country as a whole I’d like to see a more of a meritocracy. One void of party and parish pump politics. Maybe if we had a system where to run for the position of a TD you have to be a councillor, and from there if we had a system of identifying the best of them to put them forward to the Dail… just an idea. The voting for Taoiseach aswell maybe should be another matter in itself.
How about we abolish half the councils too. We don’t need 34 county councils. The whole country could probably do with 5 or 6 local authorities.
Just had a look at the council districts there and to be fair I wouldn’t make any of them any bigger if what we want councils to do is micro manage. But what could be done is lower the amount of councillors. Could make it easier to identify the better ones.
Agree, Eoin Hurley, that is the sort of political reform I would like to see. It seems to me to be pretty obvious that most or many of our TD’s are simply incompetent as government ministers for a large number of reasons. As you say, if you can make things work as a Councillor for a decade or more then you earn the right, on merit, to run for the esteemed position of being a TD. Being a success as a Councillor would also mean being subject to strict oversight and showing that you can do it without resorting to corruption or cronyism. It would also allow for a much closer relationship between candidate and electorate and less of the current system with candidates coming out of the woodwork looking for a place at the trough.
Reform of our councils is also needed, the level of wastage and cronyism is chronic at council level and the meritocracy model you have suggested could also fix that. One of the other areas that needs reform is the wages/ pensions/expenses charade that we have, it attracts the wrong people to politics and it rewards people to sit on their hands and on their arses and knowing that they can’t be sacked. This is a sham, reward and incentivise people to work hard and show pride in their work and the country would be a far better place. Not interested in a fair days work for a fair days wage?, fine, your fired, no pension. The system we have currently where candidates get votes because they met a voter at the shopping centre canvass, or called to someones door and turned on the charm and the plastic smiles, or made promises with a steady eye, or because your boss said such and such is going to help our company, or in some cases because the candidate is a bit of a looker, is a complete joke. That system has just given us another batch of gombeens.
It’s a brilliant stalling tactic by Martin.
It also empowers him in opposition, so it’s win win.
He knows going into government is a poison chalice.
Opposing a weak FG until the new election in the not distant future is the only practical play here to prevent a mutiny in his own party or the empowerment of SF in opposition.
What a beautiful mess we made as an electorate!
Good view point there Philip, one problem when Fine Gael decide that they have been voted out and take up their benches in opposition with the Labour Party , Martin is a game player and to be fair from a Fine Gael point of view they have lost close on 30 seats, Fianna Fáil are not the only party who can put self interest first .
I’m just always cynical when I hear the words ‘the establishment of……’ and wonder how many millions? and jobs for who exactly?
How about more referendums on the major issues? They could have 3 or 4 items in a referendum each month.
I’d love to see many more referendums. Problem with having so many is, they are difficult to communicate to the masses and if there is one particularly large issue, it will overshadow the others. I’d like to see about 2 every 3 months? But yes, it’s 2016. We need to keep our constitution up to date with society!
Gas! – him saying that – after his party left country bankrupt – does he think we’re eejits – ‘reform’ the debts you brought on us – he’s a banker with bad spelling……
I’d like to see reform too but under the control of an outside body not chosen by politicians..
This is pure self interest and nothing more. He knows his party will suffer damage if they go in as the junior party in a coalition.
And perhaps they could organise days out, paint balling, bowling…a few beers after. They could have hugs each morning and do the Mexican waves after every speaker…maybe have crazy hat days. FF is playing silly buggers here and it’s all about political manouvering…FF & FG are like two circuling Sumo wrestlers looking for a weakness in the other.
it looks like he is admitting to the vagaries of the political system as it stands-
-The establishment of an independent budget review office to review and cost all proposals brought to a vote by either government or opposition.
-The establishment of an office of Independent Legal Advisor to the Oireachtas.
(in effect he says politicians need to have their actions reviewed by a third party body. ) What kind of political system do we have we if we need a third party to review all actions of the political class . Why not just change the political ethos and behaviour??. I just see costings go through the roof for this one. On the one hand senior civil servants are supposed to provide this info and he is asking that this happens twice now??
One part is interesting
A new regulatory oversight process. If this refers to ensuring recommendations as put out by the Moriarty tribunal and banking enquiry are enacted then good. Its about time.
Why did not fianna Fail do Dail reform when they were government they self in past?
Perfect example of a whinger. It’s on offer now. Do you want reform? Then take it while the chance is there.
They made a ton of mistakes in the past and lost many votes as punishment. Now they are offering reform. People who dwell on the past are people who hold up progress. Learn, reform and then get things back on track.
I really think other parties should get behind this. Then let all the battles for control start on a reformed playing field.
Reform , well from my observation the voters are reforming how they vote, the young and urban voters especially, this draft is just a muddled response to this , nothing positive , just political parties refusing to adapt to this , 70 odd % voted to oust this government but the people they voted for refuse to recognise this and govern.
But magically a bunch of committees and it will all be sorted out , suddenly they can work together , if it were a GAA team I wouldn’t rate their chances , imagine the scenario who’s turn is it to tackle this time ,
you are so naive Noel
Michael. The big 2 parties have done some amount of damage over the last few years. Of course they have.
But why, when they are offering something that will have the input of all parties do you still knock it? If MM was saying that he alone would make the reform happen, I would be very wary. But he isn’t.
I’m not naive, I’m optimistic about something that could work because it will get input from all sides. You on the other hand are knocking something just because of who suggested it without thinking it through. People like you are the ones who slow down progress.
You say FG , I say FF. I say FF , you say FG. The debate between the 2 parties goes nowhere. It is an exercise in futility.
I believe that FF is right about FG and FG is right about FF.
A plague on both of their houses. They are perfectly suited to each. They should merge and let’s see what they do.
How long did this guy spend sitting around the cabinet table?
Ind Allance all ready have proposed Dail reform if other agree with them
And what about the opposition facists, i’m sure they’ll be returning once Martin has secured his job in gov!
I firmly believe there will be a FG/SF/SD/IND rainbow coalition. SF will call an EGM saying that we have to prevent a FG/FF coalition for good of the nation. They will argue that they will be in an “equal” position with FG (arguing that they along with “progressive independents” will keep FG in check) FG will say that they want SF to “put their money where their mouth is”
These reforms should be the first step only. An Independent budget office would prevent government concealing information from the Opposition and would help all parties cost their policies. The US Congress has an Independent budget office. I would also like reform of the whip system. It should only apply to the budget and confidence votes.
Reform you must be joking 1. introduce recalls 2. Hand ministry posts to the executive 3. Abolish the kangaroo court (scc) That’s thyme first 3 things should be done
have your say