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Updated 7pm
TALKS BETWEEN FIANNA Fáil and Fine Gael have finished for the evening.
Irish Water was not discussed at this afternoon’s meeting, despite the issue being a sticking point between the two parties.
Speaking to TheJournal.ie, Fianna Fáil’s Barry Cowen said:
“There are still several items outstanding – issues surrounding childcare, education, housing, health.”
He said there are a number of items where the two parties have still not reached agreement – including Irish Water – which is back on the agenda tomorrow.
Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed and if there is one thing not agreed, nothing will be agreed.It’s not as hunky dory as people would have you believe, to be quite honest.
Cowen said progress has been made on some issues, stating that the team has gone through their entire document which contains their party’s principles.
There are about six items we have to go back over to see if we can reach agreement.
It’s now expected negotiations will continue into the weekend.
If there are six or seven outstanding issues tomorrow evening, then we will meet the following day. We understand our obligation and our responsibility, clearly, to try and provide a government for the Irish people.
He said he understood that the Irish people are frustrated with the protracted process of government formation.
I know people are frustrated it is taking so long, but we’d rather take a bit of time to get it right, rather than rush into something that will fall down.
Backbenchers unhappy
Both parties held parliamentary party meetings earlier to discuss the future of Irish Water with their members.
It’s believed the deal on the table sees Irish Water becoming a state agency. It’s also planned to introduce a generous water usage allowance for householders – similar to the former Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan’s original plan – whereby customers will pay for the water they use above the limit.
However, Fianna Fáil campaigned on the promise that Irish Water would be abolished and water charges would be suspended for five years.
One Fine Gael minister has said there was a positive atmosphere around government-formation talks today. Health Minister Leo Varadkar said he was “reasonably optimistic” of an agreement.
Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald admitted it remains “challenging”.
Unhappy with any compromise
However, some backbench TDs on both sides are unhappy with the compromise – with some saying it will be a hard sell to members.
One FG source said this deal will essentially see another state quango being established – one that will rely on public-private partnership deals.
Speaking after the Fine Gael parliamentary meeting today, one TD said:
Water remains the central issue – both the charges and the structure of the utility.
He said the mood in the room during today’s meeting was one of “apprehension”.
Nobody wants to concede on continuing the charges or to disband the utility.
Meanwhile, Fine Gael’s Alan Farrell said the meeting was “very positive” and was merely an update, with no discussion of the negotiations taking place.
One FF TD said today’s parliamentary meeting went well, but that water charges and any amendments to policy were the main issue for the party. He said no draft plan from FG was presented to members at the meeting.
Despite reports that there was no room for maneuver on the issue, he believed the negotiating team had a mandate to continue discussions to reach a solution.
‘Sense of optimism’
Speaking on Morning Ireland today, acting jobs minister Richard Bruton said there was a “sense of a certain optimism” that a deal could be achieved on setting up a Fine Gael-led minority government, supported by Fianna Fáil.
Asked whether the deal would hinge on further allowances and wavers being provided to Irish Water customers, and how any revised process would work, Bruton said the negotiators would look at a fair system.
A national water system was essential for the country’s future, the minister said.
He added that from the start of the new charging regime there had always been an emphasis on free allocations and “attempts to promote conservation,” pointing to payments like the conservation grant.
From the very start that has been a feature that the previous government as well as these negotiations have grappled with.
Bruton said those involved in the talks yesterday had swayed between “depression and optimism” as they attempted to find common ground.
‘Massive climb down for Fianna Fáil’
Sinn Féin’s Pearse Doherty said this deal is the “ultimate betrayal of Irish citizens” who voted to abolish water charges.
He said there will be a water charges regime, there will be a “Phil Hogan mark two scenario” with allowances back in. “There will still be domestic charges and domestic metering – this is a complete reneging of the commitment that Fianna Fáil made”.
It is a massive u-turn and massive climb down for the Fianna Fáil party.
If a deal is done on Irish Water between the two establishment parties – the spotlight will move to the independents.
Last week, independent TD Finian McGrath said the independents should get a minimum of five ministerial roles in government, however it is believed these could take the form of junior ministerial roles.
Fine Gael have continued talking to the independents while the negotiations have been ongoing.
Additional reporting Daragh Brophy
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We are all suffering not just the elderly
There will be more than the elderly suffering hardship if they put the price up.
It’s not just the elderly, I’m renting at the moment and have a near 2 year old that I have to keep warm this winter. I’d wrap myself in a blanket to keep warm but she needs the heat. I cut down a huge amount last year, I limited myself to an hour a day on just to get a bit of heat into the place and piled on the clothes. The bills are high enough!!
Nicola i got news for you the people that were elected to run this country could not give two fcuks about you and your child they do not care but they will tell you they do .
Oh I know that quite well that’s why I didn’t vote for them to get in.
Nicola you is a class act
Its a con, bord gais is being sold by the goverment. With higher prices it will sell for more. Everyone change company and the rise wont go ahead
Change company all you like Bernard, Bord Gais still own the gas! If they higher the price of gas, Everyone has to pay.
Change broadband company all you want, Eircom still own the telegraph lines etc.
Love live my stove.
My mother is elderly, a small pension of about 200e a week, telephone, food, esb,gas, home insurance, propert tax,yes she gets the fuel allowence of 20e a week, how many bails of bricketts is that 4!! She has oil central heating at approx 500e to fill tank, most elderly have worked and paid there taxes all there lives, and now been screwed by the state for every last penny,this government takes the piss
She gets a minimum of €230 a week pension. Plus all the extras on top. What does she spend her money on? Maybe she should move to a smaller one bed place if she is having trouble heating her current property.
Thomas, that’s nothing but a smart arsed reply, you want a woman who’s worked…..actually its not worth getting into an argument with the likes of you
Thomas the c…
Thomas your such a dick. Stop picking on everyone.
I paid my gas bill last April and hadn’t paid it since September 2012. It was €300. We didn’t light the fire or have any other form of heating in the house.
It’s a warm well insulated house but I don’t get when people say they can’t afford to heat theirs. It was only €150 each for the 8 months for the two of us.
Loads of people get an extra €20 a week on their social welfare payments during the winter months.
If you’re saving for a shopping trip in New York and a two week holiday in Santa Ponza you might struggle to pay your bills alright.
Marie they do not give a flying fcuk about you or your family as long as the people keep watching RTE and keep listening to the media they are safe and their big pensions ,even tonight they are laughing at you .
Thomas I believe north korea are looking for new members, maybe you and this government can go over and join them
If I recall jk Rowling she said she used to sit in a cafe and have a cup of coffee each hour and wrote harry potter, it was cheaper than heating her house while the kids were at school.
It’s cheaper per hour to run your gas heater tan buy coffee
Thomas, the amount of gas you emit in your comments would heat a whole city!
Don’t feed the trolls
Thomas the troll is a bored teenager. Leave him be.
Yeah I’m the troll. The only person coming out with actual numbers, statistics and calculations to prove my point.
Most of these people have worked hard all their lives, and if the least their getting is government grants, then so be it. They’ve done their duties for this country and deserve to be treated well. We’ll all get old someday and I’d hope we’d be looked after too.
Yes I would agree with that sentiment.They deserve all the help the state can give in their twilight years.
People who want the gas increased must be unintelligent & need to be re-educated! Shame on them.
Keep an eye on your elder bro’ an sis’s, esp those living alone. While some may not like the direct approach of knocking on their door for privacy and safety reasons, try popping a note in their door saying who you are and where you live with a phone number and your close by to help. ;)
Eh lads and ladies thomas the tank reagan is a super troll, just be advised dont read or reply to anything he says.
How? They get their fuel bill paid for in their household benefits package. They are one segment of society that has been largely untouched.
That’s Bull Sh1t Thomas
Do you think we should go around touching elderly people?
Still no sign of Bord Gais massively overpaid workers being asked to take a wage cut.
They don’t get it paid in full
@thomas I’m sure you love your parents all the same
Get your facts straight before saying rent is zero!
My 90 year old uncle has to pay rent!
The only income he has is the pension! The benefits they do get have been cut, fuel, phone etc… He doesn’t use his phone but has to have the landline because its connected to his emergency alarm!
Elderly people do not have it that easy! And they do not get their fuel bill paid for them, they get a fuel allowance, none in the summer months, and it doesn’t cover all their heating costs!
Louise what rent? Local authority rent? That’s peanuts. They get €520 a year fuel allowance which would cover my costs.
Stop feeding the troll
Fuel bill paid??? What planet are you living on? The elderly have lost money from HP in the last 3 budgets!
They get €520 a year. That covers most of it. If they can’t cover it then the €1000 a month of pension should cover the rest easily.
They do not get it paid for, they get but a small percentage paid, than they pay the out standing, research facts before you shout off Thomas
My 76 year old mother pays 50€ a wk rent, 30 for gas and 14 for esb, she also has insurance, phone, food and her credit union also to pay out of her pension and im sure like everyone every wk there seems to be something else that needs to be paid, she raised 7 kids and worked full-time from the age of 13 till she reached retirement age, she can’t manage on her pension and it’s just lucky we have a big family and each give her 10€ a wk and one of my amazing nephews who is only 21 and gives his nanny 50€ a wk but not everyone has a good family.
Yes there are many like your mother that had to go out at a very early age and start working. Especially in Families that would have lost their parents at a young age. In those days there was no other way. The eldest in the family had to take the role of the parent.The pension they are getting in some cases does not go far enough. Pension should be linked to inflation.Prices are going up but it seems that the pension is not.A lot of the pensioners were denied a full dedication because of family issues like a bereavement and they had to go and work to bring food home.In many cases they were the bread winners at a very early stage in their lives. They deserve all they are getting now and more.
I totally agree Francis that pensions should track inflation. In 1997 the state pension was €99. Prices have increased by 48% since then which means the pension should be €146.
How do you suggest pensioners live on that amount Thomas? As I’ve already said my mothers bills are: €50 a wk for rent, €30 for gas, €14 for esb, I’m not sure how much on food but I’m guessing at least €40-50 now that’s just the essentials, she now has to pay €10 a month for her prescription her.
@Thomas “Yeah I’m the troll. The only person coming out with actual numbers, statistics and calculations to prove my point.”
Makey uppy numbers don’t count as statistics.
Once again the Elderly are being hit. Also people with young children who are way behind in their utility bill. Winter bills in Ireland can be very expensive because of harsh winters. The biggest bill is heating. Which ever source you use be it Gas . Electricity or Oil. They are all mighty expensive. The elderly need the heat because most of them cannot get around and one needs to move in the cold weather to keep warm. When there is an increase in Heating costs that should be taken into account. Up the allowance for the elderly with the increase to cushion the burden. On the other side of the coin we have many families with young children struggling also to meet utility bill. So hopefully the Government will take note.
T.R you are a no 1
A.H
The elderly have more ability to pay this than the rest of us.
It is said a lot of elderly are going without food to pay these bills. In order to understand their situation you have to be in their shoes .They would have been around when Taxes were very high and wages were not to good back in the 40s and fifties. So we must appreciate them and not take them for Granted. Like today many would have had to emigrate to get work like today there was no work in Ireland
Shaun you and Thomas should go off and do brokeback mountain together and give us all a break.
Why so? A senior citizen who doesn’t have an additional pensionn has 230 a week. Free travel. Medical card. No TV license. Heat allowance.
Yes they need more heat than a younger person but they are in the main well looked after.
Thomas have a w*nk while looking at your gas bill you need the release..
The home allowance applies to either Electricity or Gas not to both, and has been reduced considerably by this present government. Generalising about elderly people and what they may or may not endure is assuming what we think might be , not what we know. Assume= ass/u//me.
Elderly, and the families with childrens probably do not fit to new world order… so Gowernment trying to get rid of them. then they will have mostly people who working and and paying taxes, without getting benefits. And all the money goes to fat overseas boundholders…
Will hurt working people as well
@John – I agree. The elderly have spokespeople and good for them but this is hardship for the PAYE worker as well.
I’ve had enough…passport quick!
FG/L government are ripping us off with taxes that we are not really able to afford. They have bullied us into submission with taking these taxes out of our pensions, social welfare and salaries. The gas board have now taken a lead from them – bully the people as we did and there’ll be no problem getting your money. The gas increase is only the tip of the iceberg and is happening because of what we have allowed this government to get away with. The only solution is to take to the streets and demand the resignation of this government.
They do this every year and we do nothing about it and we can’t every one should get a pre paid meter for free and but money in it in the summer time it would help a little bit
Thats what I did!! ; )
Its a disgrace the price of gas going up wages and social welfare cuts property tax and water charges on the way budget day in oct we are all gonna be fleeced a long cold winter on the way in its digraceful we dont have a chance serious hard times ahead for all
But as usual we will sit on our arses and do nothing as usual
We need another mass. .
The reason for the rise is because the French company that was to buy it pulled out .. So the gas company want to up there income to entice company back in to buying..at our expense of course..
I think the energy regulator should find there balls and speak out-
Oh wait of course they won’t cause there in bed with them – when have they ever spoken out , I can’t recall
‘Wont someone think of the CEO’S!!’
just another rip off,if its not gas is expensive to buy on the open market we now have its expensive to transport it to ireland….esb will piggy back on this guarateed price rise and yes it is guaranteed as the energy regulator has never refused a price rise and bearing in mind he is there to protect the customer….well in 2015 we will have an additional price rise to look forward to as water bills will increase in year 1 as it to will use the same excuse as electricity companies use to increase their prices only were the electrical companies blame their increase on the price of fuel ie gas we will have irish water looking for an increase on the double as they will use the excuse that energy used to produce clean has increased ie gas and electricity….
My post has just been deleted..so much for freedom of speech the journal.ie.. Me no likey no more..bye bye.
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