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AS EUROPE RECOVERS from a number of horrific terrorist attacks and Ireland’s capital has become a battlefield for two violent gangs, this country’s police officers are asking whether it is feasible for them to continue unarmed.
The annual conference of the Garda Representative Association (GRA) kicks off in Killarney, county Kerry, tomorrow morning and a number of motions up for debate centre on the ability of the force to provide an armed response to incidents.
One motion, proposed by the Donegal division will question whether it is realistic to maintain An Garda Síochána as an unarmed force “in an era of rising violent crime and threat of international terrorism”.
One source said most gardaí “still harbour the desire to be an unarmed force”.
“They don’t mind continuing unarmed if they know they have the armed backup, but the level of armed cover has been depleted despite the fact that the armed threat has increased with gangland violence and terrorist threats”.
On the border
Another garda pointed out that having just four groups of the Regional Support Unit based in Dundalk and Ballyshannon means it could take hours for armed officers to reach some parts of the country.
This includes some border areas where gardaí are regularly dealing with criminal gangs and dissidents.
“Society has become so dangerous, as evidenced by recent events, that armed incidents can happen at any time of night. There have been incidents on border areas where armed cover was required and it just wasn’t there,” they said.
“My view is you’d need 24-hour armed cover in each division – that would be in an ideal world.”
A separate motion to be debated at tomorrow’s conference will call on the Minister for Justice and the Commissioner to address the “chronic lack of 24-hour armed cover” across the country.
Other motions will address pay, overtime and training.
Leadership
The association’s central executive committee will be under pressure over the next couple of days, after a ballot on new roster proposals was rejected by rank and file gardaí – despite strong endorsement by the executive.
It was rejected by a majority of 68.8% to 31.2%.
Members are reluctant to agree any change in their rosters with management until there is movement in restoring their pay to pre-2008 levels.
An emergency motion on the issue may have to be put to delegates tomorrow and local representatives are likely to question the executive about its decision to support proposals in the firstplace.
The GRA will also see a shake-up in its leadership, with elections planned for tomorrow morning to put a new president and vice president in place. Following the retirement of PJ Stone, the organisation is also seeking a new general secretary.
We’ll be reporting from this year’s GRA Annual Delegate Conference in Killarney over the next three days, so keep an eye out and follow @michellehtweet for updates.
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If you shoot, you shoot 2kill. Nobody is trained to shoot to injure
If the “bad guys” just stopped what they were doing, no one would get shot. Dont run, dont fight, dont get shot..
Reaction times are the key metric here. Having a gun, bringing that gun to bear, selecting the right target and shooting in such a way as to injure but not kill a criminal are all difficult skills. Real policing involves an enormous array of skills, simply arming your average Garda will not have any beneficial affect.
Shooting to wound isn’t a skill, it’s pot luck.
There are those in the ARU and ARW who would disagree and they should know as they train assiduously to achieve that skill.
James, I’m a competitive shooter and not some random internet profile that thinks they know everything. Every week I’m on the range practicing with firearms. Believe me when I say that shooting to wound is simply luck.
You can hit someone in the leg and still kill them given the number of important arteries there. Even still, the chances that you miss said leg (given it’s a small, moving target) and hit a bystander are significantly higher.
Police are trained to aim for the largest body mass, the torso. Which is more often than not going to be fatal. This myth of shooting a fella in the leg or shooting the gun out of his hand John Wayne style is pure fantasy and anyone who has every used a firearm will tell you that. It’s about neutralising the threat that exists. Once there is a perceived threat providing justification to engage, it’s then the above training kicks in and it’ll usually be fatal, if not very serious injury.
What calibres and distances do you shoot jason? Unrelated but genuine question.
And depends on the weapon and round used…
No problem with questions Peter. Currently I’m shooting .22LR carbine rifles as well as full rifles at 50m distance but soon I’ll be starting a training course to pick up large calibre rifle shooting at 100m (our rifle for learning at this distance is a .308 but personally I’ll aim to pick up a .223).
Agree – you aim for the largest centre of mass. Aiming for a leg or arm is mad, not to mention reckless as you have a better chance of missing and hitting an innocent by stander. James your talking through your hoop.
James, I don’t think they will hand out guns without proper training. They would bring the average Garda on the street up to the level of the ARU.
Jason..excellent hobby.i use a .220 magnum and love long range target shooting.This is an expensive country for this sport and someday id love to upgrade to the .223 or 5.56 and stretch my distances out to 500m…or more! I take it Canada is a little less restrictive on calibres if you are able to practice on .308.
Police rounds are also designed to shatter on impact so as not to pass through a suspect and injure any third parties . So it’s shoot to kill.
Peter, I’m shooting in the Netherlands which is strict but fair in my opinion. Officially it’s not allowed as a hobby here, only sport so I’m obliged to compete here (although I enjoy the competitions so it’s a win-win).
You would be hard pressed to take a .223 out to 500m, you could do that with a 5.56mm in theory as the military cartridge has more powder behind it but you’d need a top end AR-15 like the MR223 to reach out that far accurately. For that distance you’d really need a .308 with good quality ammo or a .300 Win Mag to be hitting consistently.
Jason..im not sure why i thought you were in Canada.As things are myself and my son have maxed out the magnum to 250m and tend to achieve 200mm grouping and as you can imagine the fall of shot is astounding.308 would be frowned upon here by the licensing authority..and expensive.it sounds like you have a sport for life there.
I have a .308 and a .22 swift. I use hornady balistic tip rounds in the swift and it will get you close to the distances you are talking about. I will take the swift any day before the .308
Keyser…very interesting…are the ballistic rounds expensive and is the trajectory fairly flat at long range?
They are expensive and probably not worth it for target shooting but I use them for lamping foxes and deer hunting
Any one of you commentators a member of either the ARU or the ARW? Didn’t think so.
No, you shoot to injure. The injury may or may not result in death.
Unfortunately the world has changed, and not for the better. I think an armed force is inevitable, and personally I have no issues with it happening.
More guns just means more gun deaths. Armed police will mean better armed criminals. More guns on the streets will always equal more gun deaths.
Does a neutral country need an armed police force or is an armed response unit not sufficient where communication equipment is advanced.
Brian, I think you’ll find that the arms race is between the rival criminal gangs gunning one another down rather than the criminal world and the police. Look at the recent gangland murders that have seen kevlar vests and AK-47′s used.
Yes @ Jason there is an arms race going on with criminal gangs but the answer is not to give bigger guns to the guards. That will not save lives it will just increase gun deaths.
We need to be smarter then the criminals not better armed.
Brian – if those gun deaths are where a Garda shoots a man wielding an ak47 and in danger of killing another person, then that’s OK by me
Personally I would rather see the guy holding the ak47 prosecuted in a court.
At least then we will know how to prevent further incidents.
Shoot first ask questions later is never smart.
“smarter than the criminals”….that reminds me of someone..smarter,smart…
Attempting to arrest a man who’s pointing an AK-47 at you isn’t very smart either Brian. It’s simply not possible to arrest every armed lunatic.
Aha! “smart policing”!!! Knew i heard it before!!! Groucho Marx !!
But it is possible to create the conditions where it is impossible for lunatics to get a hold of guns.
Since ye all mention AK47′s & an arms race take into consideration there has been AK47′s in this country for over 20yrs.
If all these mentions of Ak47′s are due to the Hotel shooting please take note that there wasn’t even unarmed garda there even though there was a fair few reporters knew of gang members attending,give Irish cops guns & you’ll probably get shot having no nct
Please explain how it can be made impossible for criminals to obtain guns.
Firstly we continue our licensing program increasing the difficulty of getting a gun pushing the cost up of the guns.
Then we work to remove the finance behind these criminals by ensuring their revenue streams are cut. We work with people who have addictions to ensure it is treated. This is the hard bit as it needs a change of attitude from looking at these peoples as criminals to people who are sick. We are an island nation and as HAughey demonstrated it is difficult to get arms in to our country.
Basically hard work to minimize the weapons in circulation not increase them…. A lot harder then spending a few quid on fancy machine guns. It will never be impossible but it can be made very expensive through simple supply and demand
Brian, I’m not sure if you’re aware of this or not but fully automatic AK-47′s are not in circulation in Ireland outside the black market. It’s wholly forbidden to own one as a civilian under Irish firearm laws.
The majority of gangland shootings are committed using handguns, something which has also been almost impossible to acquire legally in Ireland in recent years. It’s obviously not that hard to get firearms into Ireland illegally if criminals are using guns which are widely forbidden through law.
I was not aware of the legal status of AK47s thanks for the update. Good to know they are illegal.
I don’t agree with the term gangland as it is a catch all for a variety of problems that all require different approaches . I have never been in gangland and I have been and lived all around the country but I have seen various communities that have high level of criminals operating within the communities.
If its not hard to get guns in Ireland then we need to work harder to capture those guns not accelerate the process by putting more guns into circulation. More community based policing and more check points where the Guards check for more then just tax and look in boots should help to take more guns out of circulation.
Stopping the political policing of the last four years where the Guards have been pitted against communities thanks to the privatization of our water supply would also help to win communities over to helping the Guards.
Brian Boru,
Perhaps you should become more educated on fireamrs before you advocate restricting peoples liberty any further.
The vast majority of firearms in ireland are owened by responsible gun owners, with small callibers and limited mag size.
Then why do we need to arm our police force?
Not having a gun to play with does not restrict your liberty.
I have trained with the use of guns but prefer to use a camera by the way…
You have a right to own a firearm in Ireland (Albeit within a very limited sense) and the avocation of banning almost anything is by definition a restriction of liberty. Do I trust the average rank and file Gardaí with a firearm? No, not currently as they are untrained and undisciplined in the use of a firearm, however pretending that we live in an age where there are no firearms on this Island is simply ludicrous.
You may enjoy your camera and that’s a brilliant hobby, however others enjoy trimming their chest hair into bonsai shapes and others enjoy pigeon shooting. Many more enjoy going to water protests; all are hobbies and should not be restricted more than is necessary.
It would appear the average Irish man is more concerned with trivial matters than freedom and liberty. The Americans at least tend to have the rhetoric down even if the execution leaves something to be desired.
Roosevelt perhaps called it correctly when he spoke amount diplomatic relations “speak softly and carry a big stick”.
Guns should never be brought to protests just look at America the country is run like a dictatorship now.
I disagree, for the majority of Policing issues a gun is not required, a gun is not going to make any difference while you’re trying to break up a row outside a pub or nightclub, domestic issues, shoplifting etc, chances are that most Gardai could go through a 30 year career without thankfully coming across someone brandishing a gun. Also the chances of us been targeted by International terrorists are slim and none, so by all means have an armed response unit in every division, but arming all Gardai is totally unnecessary.
Aging Lothorio, Why are the odds of ireland being targeted by International terrorism slim to none ?
Why is this even on debate? Of course it’s needed.
Give the guards guns and welcome to the USA
It is debated because it will bring an escalation in violence and down the line will involve the accidental death of innocents.
Why does everyone immediately think of the U.S. when the topic of armed policing? You’d swear that it was the only country where the police had guns; the reality is that you could count the number of places with unarmed police on one hand, and two of those countries have firearms available to their police if required.
Every police force in Europe is armed,just look at Dublin city centre?an absolute cesspit,they should be allowed shoot thugs and junkies on site!
Police right across Europe are all armed. SO why compare to the extreme American cases and not to our neighbours in Europe?
The Gardai deserve to be armed when faced with armed criminals. Train them well and allow them the right to face like with like. Ireland has to grow up and face the stark reality of where the world has gone.
In my view there is still no justification for having a fully armed police force in this country. We came through thirty years of the troubles with policemen being murdered doing their duty to uphold the law from armed gangs of terrorist thugs. There were also kidnappings, bank raids and plenty of people killed by so called IRA along the border and still the main body of the police were unarmed. While crime in this country is now more associated with criminal gangs there is still no need for a fully armed police force. This is not America or the middle east.
No we didn’t. Northern Ireland went through that while Republican forces were generally staying clear of engaging the Gardai. We simply weren’t targeted down here and the few times it happened stick out in memory. For instance after Garda Frank Hand was killed the state put a heavily armed military escort on cash deliveries.
Those who were targeted, in the north, carried arms.
Give them guns?
I think the IQ levels will need to raise up a little first.
They’d just end up shooting bald tyres.
Awwwww, did you fail the entrance exam David?
Nah! went to TCD instead, where the only gun I had was a mutton one
The regular police force does not need to be armed. We manage to function reasonably well and very few lives get lost because of the fact that we aren’t armed to the teeth, especially in comparison to the likes of the US. Having some type of armed special forces to be used when necessary I’m okay with, but the regular police, no.
That would be adequate if the right protocols were in place. Unfortunately the Guards admit that in the event of a large-scale terrorist attack, for example, the Gardai would be completely lost and ineffective.
Having armed first responders means that the police force can more effectively respond to incidences such as terrorist attacks or gangland shootings. Look at Texas where an attempted terrorist attack was put down very quickly because two armed police officers outside an event were the initial targets. Unlike Guards who would have been gunned down, the police in Texas responded with fire immediately and killed the would-be terrorists.
That’s potentially 30 lives saved.
While that worked out in Texas that 1 time, how many other shooting incidents have there been in America(where the police are armed to the teeth) where the armed police made a blind bit of difference? Currently our armed Emergency response is more than sufficient, since firearms offences or terrorist incidents are most likely in Dublin. Maybe get them a few choppers to get to the scene faster.
@Jason it’s not one off incidents that will sway people’s thinking on this issue, we are above that I would hope. How many people are killed by police officers in Texas compared to Ireland? If we were to suffer a large scale terrorist attack the perfect response is an armed ERU, we are not the US and don’t have to copy them by heightening fear to the point of arming our guards with lethal weapons.
Gar, the US isn’t the only country where frontline police officers are armed. In fact most European countries have armed frontline police officers and experience nowhere near as much gun violence as the US.
America is a unique case as you have a combination of a large amounts of guns, easy access to psychotropic drugs, heavily armed gangs and police who are very quick on the trigger. Here in Europe you rarely see innocents shot by armed police despite the majority of police forces being just as heavily armed as American ones.
Gone, forgive me if I take the word of the Gardai who almost unanimously say that the armed response is not sufficient over one random internet profile that says it is. I think the people who are supposed to respond to these sorts of situations are the best ones to listen to and they’re saying that their equipment is insufficient for the job.
How about instead of taking word of one side or the other you take a look at the history of this fine country of ours. Whether you believe them to be terrorists or not, we have had heavily armed men and women traipsing around our country for the last 100 years. We were more at risk of being in an incident throughout those years yet the lack of guns didn’t lead to us all being murdered etc. I respect the Gardai and the job they are doing, but the majority of their tasks are low level community policing which doesn’t require firearms. And should an armed response be needed then we can use the force which trains every shift, not the guards who will certify once a year.
Since you talk about Texas Jason. The best arguments for guns are always brought forward by those selling them. Our stance on guns has prevented these kind of massacres from taking place in Ireland. How do you earn your crust? Me smells a vested interest.
Warmongers always talk about the numbers of lives their war saved.
Below is a quick google list of people killed in Texas thanks to loose laws around gun control.
Oct. 16, 1991: A deadly shooting rampage took place in Killeen, Texas, as George Hennard opened fire at a Luby’s Cafeteria, killing 23 people before taking his own life. 20 others were wounded in the attack.
2 .Aug. 1, 1966: Charles Whitman opened fire from the clock tower at the University of Texas at Austin, killing 16 people and wounding 31.
3. Nov. 5, 2009: Thirteen soldiers and civilians were killed and more than two dozen wounded when a gunman walked into the Soldier Readiness Processing Center at Fort Hood, Texas, and opened fire. Army psychiatrist Maj. Nidal Hasan is charged with 13 counts of premeditated murder and 32 counts of attempted premeditated murder.
4. Sept. 15, 1999: Seven people were killed and seven others injured when a gunman opened fire inside a crowded chapel at Fort Worth’s Wedgewood Baptist Church. Some worshipers believed that Larry Gene Ashbrook was pulling a prank and continued singing after the shooting began. The murderer killed himself.
What are you basing your “more than sufficient” comment on? No 24 hour armed cover whatsoever outside of Dublin – other than Cork, that has 2 detectives with hand guns at night that are expected to travel all over Munster. There are 5 shifts/units and 4 RSU units (or less) all over the country. No good waiting till more Gardai or civilians are shot and killed for the hand wringing to begin.
Look at our country. Rarely any firearm deaths, if there are any they are one shot one target assassination style events that an armed police force couldn’t stop anyway.
Lest we forget that we do have the Defence forces and our highly trained and very capable Army Ranger Wing which can respond to Terrorist incidents.
Ye if you believe the Independent the republic is the most dangerous country in UK and Ireland (despite the fact the the risk to average man on the street is very low…. as most gun related incidents are gang related) I’d use the analogy of capital punishment; does the treat of execution detur people from committing serious crimes? Not really Would the treat of an armed response from routine police patrols detur criminals from committing serious crimes like gangland shootings? No….. instead of carrying knives hardened criminals would carry handguns… then you get all the trimmings of Guards and the general public being at greater risk of being shot and killed.
If all guards in this country were armed then I am afraid that this will undoubtably put their families at risk from break-ins where thieves would want to get hold of thes weapons.
I think yeS. With a qualification. They need to raise their standards in selection and training. I have personally seen two,gardai turn tail and walk the other way when a fracas broke out. Corks finest…not!
It OK guys and girls, we doing need to arm the Garda. We’ll do it the Irish way and wait till a couple of them get shot while doing their duty, then we might give them pepper spray. Bannana Republic
With the genetal selection and training standard I wouldn’t trust them with a slingshot let alone a 9mm If they review the garda selection standard and not pick the thick low grader , yes why not
Nowadays every mobile has a good camera. What we have seen of late were the actions of a few idiotic law enforcers going power mad and beating people throwing them into bollards etc. I have no doubt that these were the actions of a very small minority of generally good gardai……………..but can you imagine if these people ha access to firearms.
How busy is the ERU with their armed gardai? is there really a need for gardai to all be armed.
I have tremendous respect for the Gardaí and all their hard work, but the idea of an armed force terrifies me! (Or at least regular Gardaí having guns – I do admit we must have at least some armed unit). I think we’re lucky here that guns are a completely abnormal thing to see. More guns = more accidentals deaths etc. I really don’t want to see our excellent police force descend into the mess that we see in the US. Protect our gardaí, absolutely, give them flak jackets, even tasers, but it will be a sad day that we see regular gardaí armed with guns.
This is quite the depressing thread
Just because Jhonny jumped off the cliff does not mean you have to.
Heightened crime, opportunistic crime is a result of two main stressors. Culture on a societal level governs how crime and homeless issues manifest in the society.
People saying they should be allowed to shoot homeless and drug users on sight, is beyond deplorable. The more you have a society with an equality gap the more you see homelessness and drug problems. Crime from drugs in the manifestation of drugs being illegal. Proven throughout countries that have put a better management and care social systems in place to manage and treat drug abuse.
If you want less crime, less homeless and less drug abuse you need to address and fix the societal culture, the social capital if you will.
Inequity creates nearly all of these problems, if you breed the poor, homeless and drug dependence then you see the heightened manifestation of crime. This is why the U.S has such an issue, they have a terribly broken culture, fix the culture with social systems. you address the effects of the culture.
Arming, further as a solution is no solution at all. Fred takes a knife, jack takes a sword, Fred takes a handgun, Jack takes an automatic pistol. Meeting all problems with a hammer just makes all problems look like nails. In reality, society is not that simple. Although all society is a direct result of the social constructs, depending on how these constructs address society issues with directly result in what negative issues manifest within that society.
We already have an armed police force.
First level guard is the revenue collection guard (the one they don’t trust with guns)
After that we have a lot of armed guards.
(I’m not being trying to facetious, this is the way I see the Guards)
Dublin is hardly a battlefield now.. This recent gang activity has been blown out of proportion, we’ve dealt with similar in the past with the current setup so no reason we can’t now.
As for the terrorism argument, Armed police create a terrorism of their own.
Should be like Norway, the Police are armed when it is only absolutely necessary like a terrorist threat that has happened or that the Country has been put on alert of an imminent attack and it is always under review so when the threat has died down the guns go back into the boots of police cars/ gun safe in the stations
Of course we need armed units – but as part of a largely unarmed police force. Armed police involved in day to day on street policing are not required. For dealing with terrorists with have the army ranger units who most definitely shoot to kill. Not sure how shooting to wound works !
If a criminal has no gun then the gardai don’t need a gun. If a criminal has a gun and they know the gardai has a gun then they have no choice only to use it putting innocent lives at risk.
They need to be armed as they have to police the water meters and some people will not move away from the stopcock , the question is should Kenny’s Gestapo be armed to support Dennis O’Briens attempt to rob the country and its people ?.
Armed gardai will bring more armed gangsters! For so long our police force haven’t used guns! They have been Successful for so long. You wouldn’t always hear about shootings, But now because there becoming more apparent, Swim thinks we should get guns to fight back? Yea Lets Fight Fire with fire!!! We would have similar cases of that seen in america, Police gettinh murderd/shot and then Shooting of unarmed civilians
We Will have more armed Thugs
we will have the minority of Unlawful Gardai abusing their power,
More Innocent people Killed(By Both Parties)
And a lot of headless citizens
Guns = Bad, Even if its for the government !
Opening a very big can of worms!
Why not have army patrols to back up gardai if needed
Definitely,why have 7500 soliders with weapon experience doing nothing to upkeep the peace in this country? At least half should be deployed as armed gardai, ay least then yhey would been doing something credible
Yeah, and lets solve the nursing shortage by just sending in a load of hairdressers to take up the short fall.
People suggesting the Army should be used to provide policing are insane… ones and army, ones a police force… there is a fairly sizeable difference.
So they can’t be trained??? Army in Ireland offers nothing to the people and has no purpose, completely and utterly useless. Train them and deploy them as Gardaí, Better than having them act as security for banks.
Since when did the army become police?
No. It is time for policing and individual police departments to return to Ireland. The Guardians of the peace system has not been able to be effective for many reasons, most notable in recent times and lack of resources and legislation or laws to enforce in a Western EU society.
Ohh Arm them to the teeth – It works sooooo well in America !
Not a fan of arming the gardai on the beat, I can see a lot of training and responsibility for having a firearm and to use it responsibly and during only the direst situation. Situations where we could do with armed policing is at airports and adding more to the emergency response unit, but I would likely leave it at that.
The debate where it’s said that if the Gardai are routinely armed criminals will also arm themselves is moot. Criminals today in Ireland are regularly armed and have access to a vast array of weapons from .22 pistols to RPG launchers and everything in between. The world has changed since the founding of the Gardai and it is time for people to recognise that. Every large drug shipment usually has a few guns thrown in as sweetness. Ireland’s underworld is awash with illegal firearms. How many times have we seen stories in by the media about unarmed Gardai taking on armed suspects. It’s only sheer good fortune that more haven’t been killed.
Strange how after over 30 years of conflict in the north they never had to arm the garda but a few armed drug dealers ????
I think it’s time to arm the police. But with rubber bullets. Does the same job but without unnecessary killing.
Tell that to the people of Northern Ireland. Consider the number of children who have been killed using rubber bullets.
Tell that to my neighbours here in west Belfast just feet from my front door there is a mormoral to a young girl killed by them like dozens more in the north.
This is all part of an E.U. plan to arm the garda and also have ireland drop its neutrality. They have a new world coming into sight A New World Order. Funny how over the troubles they never had to arm themselves. Alot more to this than meets the eye to most people.
We definitely need to be armed now, once the criminals of this country got their hands on all types of guns it was time the Gardai had the equipment to match them,and leave their baton at home. We also have an Army of 7,500. More than half of these should be deployed and trained as Gardai. All they seem to do is send a few over for peace keeping duties and act as security for transferring money. To me they do Very little to keep the peace in this country and if not why do we have so many. They a complete waste of tax payers money and offer nothing to the country, put them out on the beat and do something credible instead of playing war games in the curragh. They have weapons training,get them to do something for their own country
We should all be allowed to carry weapons. Just like in the US. Then there would be no shooting of innocent people
Please tell me that you’re joking …
have your say