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Updated 9am.
THERE ARE WARNINGS of major disruptions for schools and students after teachers voted to stop working extra hours yesterday.
ASTI members voted overwhelmingly to withdraw from the 33 Croke Park hours by 68.5% to 31.5%.
The hours came into place in 2011. Croke Park hours are additional working hours that were brought in by the Croke Park and subsequently Haddington Road agreement.
However the Department of Education has released a statement saying that this may cause major disruption for students and schools:
We are concerned at the implications for individual teachers, and the implications for major disruption for students and schools from September if the ASTI proceeds with the proposed action.
A spokesperson for the ASTI said that the hours don’t involve students and are hours for work done outside of school time and outside of classroom time, adding that pulling out of these hours “won’t affect students’ learning” and “won’t force schools to close”.
ASTI President Máire G Ní Chiarba said that teachers believe the Croke Park hours are unproductive and impact negatively on students’ education:
The Croke Park hours are highly prescriptive and unproductive. Teachers believe that these hours are among the least productive tasks undertaken in schools and that they do not improve teaching and learning. Schools can function normally without the Croke Park hours, just as they did prior to their introduction.
She said that the situation was “exacerbated by cutbacks during austerity years” and then the introduction of Croke Park hours.
Ní Chiarba described the ballot result as a very strong statement from ASTI members to the government that they are determined to reclaim their terms and conditions following years of cuts and reduced resources:
“What teachers are saying is that they want to be able to get on with their jobs, instead of having to waste time completing bureaucratic box-ticking exercises. The Croke Park hours divert teachers’ time away from core duties such as teaching, learning, and building relations with their students.”
The Department of Education said it has invited the ASTI to discuss the hours but the invitation has not been accepted:
We regret that the ASTI has not as of yet accepted an invitation to meet with the Department to discuss their issues of concern, however this invitation remains open.
The ASTI has 17,500 members nationwide. The ballot turnout was 76%.
It is likely that the move will kick into place in September, but the ASTI’s standing committee will meet today to consider the outcome.
Additional reporting by Cliódhna Russell.
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Way to go – VERY unproductive altogether. Hopefully all these Croke Park hours can now be banished to history…
How many times should a group of teachers be lectured by some Department gombeen about “literacy and numeracy”. These meetings every few weeks were absolutely pointless as the audience were familiar with the topics after the first time. If, for example, the hours had been used to correct LC or JC mocks and save money for hard pressed parents I could have understood somewhat the logic but the hours were completely wasted by the Department.
That old paper trail is indispensable for the anonymous bureaucrats….its proof of attendance and diligence..
Very biased since you are a teacher Phil?
just back from a mid term break and only a month now until 10 weeks off,they’re not living in the real world
@John…go educate yourself about the damage those ridiculous Croke Park hours cost before you come out with this predictable “Lazy teachers!” nonsense. I’ll make it easy for you, look at my comment below.
And if it’s so cushy, why don’t you go be a teacher? Those who can’t teach sit at their keyboards whinging and moaning about the people who actually can.
the worlds smallest violin is playing Bryan ,please don’t dare lecture people doing 40-50 hour weeks with 23 days holiday a year ,I notice you didn’t address the fact your just back from a mid term break or that you have 10 weeks off this summer
Which I don’t get paid for because I’m a post-Croke Park teacher not on contract, but nice try. You wouldn’t last 10seconds in a classroom of 30 teenaged boys and you know it. And hey, why are the school holidays the way they are? Is it because of those gosh darned lazy teachers? Of course not, only a rampant moron would assume that. It’s because of the students and the parents. Parents would flip their lids if we tried to keep their kids in school 52 weeks a year and the students would be brain dead halfway through the year. That’s the oldest argument from numpties such as yourself, and as predictable as your last one.
And like I said, if it’s all so great, then go do the PGDE and be a teacher. If not then shut up and have a seat.
I chose not to go down that route Bryan because I wanted to be challenged. I broke my back for 5 years to become a structural engineer,and completed a nice 60 hour week yesterday. Do you know how frustrating it is listening to people who did 3 years in pats whinge and moan that their 25 hour week is actually 40 hours,well aren’t yee great ,your just like everyone else in the private sector ,except we don’t get your lavish holidays or the right to strike and moan at every opportunity ,why because we’re living in the real world .Now get back to the classroom Bryan,it’s lifesaving work your doing there !
Well the fact that this is an article is about the ASTI and secondary teachers, and your talking about Pats shows just how much you really know about the subject. Secondary school teachers do their 4 year degree like everyone else on top of a now 2 year Hdip
That comment is in reference to John btw
Engineers are challenged and teachers are not?? Get off your high horse
The #teachersstruggle is less of a workload than that of an engineer..
tha tis what John means Brid
60hour week, you must have messed up big time to have to work an extra 20 hours to fix your mistakes, maybe engineering isn’t for you
sorry baz,you do realise in the real world ,you don’t always get to leave when the bell rings.I pity the poor child whose probably stuck watching videos in your classroom.
John I’m glad you are well educated and became an engineer. It’s a pity though that you’d like students to be in school constantly just to make yourself feel better. It might give them practice to become an overworked and grumpy engineer though.
in the real world, the labourers on the site do the real work for a tenth of the pay that the engineers get. of course, the reason for that is that the engineers got an education the labourers didn’t.
anyway, carry on (are you Pat Kenny)
I know exactly what labourers get,I was on sites since I was 16. However I believe nearly 40 hours of lectures a week for 4 years ,minus study and a masters entitled me to work my way up. In fact when I started,it took me 2 years to match the starting salary of a teacher,working essentially twice the hours.Marcus,believe me,if I had my time over ,I would’ve taken the easy route and I would advise everyone to do the same.
Ohh what’s that John? Why it’s the world’s smallest violin!
maybe you’ll stop playing yours ,now you know what’s it like in a harder job.
I’m not playing anything. I love my job, I love teaching and training kids, I love my holidays (even though I have to draw the dole or work in a bar), I love it when students ‘get’ what I’m teaching, I love my tiny paycheque and I love the fact that I’m highly educated (nearly for free) in a beautiful country.
well I’m happy your happy,I’m not sure everyone else will be as happy you ‘have’ to draw the dole during your holidays in your quest for job satisfaction or a great quality of life.
Well done John, and I’m sure your 4 years of study and your masters have entitled you to a much higher earning potential than the rest of us teachers as well. I too studied for four years, and did my 2 year HDip to become a teacher, my lifetime earning potential probably won’t be as large as a high flyer such as yourself, but I don’t mind. You see, I didn’t get into teaching because it was “the easy route” as you so eloquently describe it or for the holidays, I got into teaching because I love working with kids, I love the moment I see a child whose been struggling to understand a particular topic or concept finally click. I love nurturing a passion for particular subjects in my students. I love when I see my hard work pay off, when I see a student get the college course they want, when I know that my hard work has helped them earn a college place in the course of their dreams. And who knows … maybe that course will be structural engineering.
So whatever concession they got during the negotiations can be withdrawn now I presume?
‘And who knows … maybe that course will be structural engineering.’
if it is, don’t expect any thanks for your input into helping that student.
Perhaps his comment is performed by actual knowledge and personal experience then if he is a teacher, rather than ignorance of what the croke park hours entail, like your remark. If people could stop the needless teacher bashing that would be fantastic!
John you really are an ignorant fool.
alan ,you really are a lazy,deluded gombeen
I have one short comment, there are many marvellous teachers in our schools BUT by god god there are some I wouldn’t have washing my car, but they can’t be got rid of and are a disgrace to the brilliant ones. If the unions doted that one out ,there would be far less “teacher bashing” what’s is funny , if a bit sad is the kids in secondary can smell a crap teacher a mile off and will come home and say it!
Yes, just give the labourers the plans and let them get on with it. Sure, they could even design it and draw the plans themselves! Do the whole process from start to finish …
John, I think it’s time that you build a bridge and get over it; (shouldn’t be hard given your burgeoning C.V.).
If it was that easy why didn’t you become a teacher john
Thank you Niall! Lovely comment. Myself and my fiance are teachers (I’m just finishing my PME and on the job hunt, he is an NQT). He just finished a 13 hour day, the 4th this week, and is facing a weekend of work. We worked it out that he gets about 7 euro an hour for the work he does when we tot up his hours. We went into it not for the holidays, as that simply doesnt keep you going through the screaming moody students. Its for the love of the successes. The kid that suddenly gets it. There will always be people like John who obviously came out of school believing he taught himself to read and write, and they will brand us ‘lazy’. If only they knew how hard we work and how much they all relied on us to get them through. But it doesnt matter what John thinks. He is bitter and deluded. We know what we do. We know how important it is, and how hard we work. I think most people understand.
I’m not a teacher but do you know how frustrating it is to have “structural engineers ” increase the costs of all building projects in this country . As for your 60 hours I’m sure your well paid and are not responsible for the future education of this country. Unfortunately for you the boom didn’t keep going and now you’re bitter
60 hour week yet u have loads of time to be posting about teachers u are a sad fool
Those who can do those who can’t teach
Hey Patrick, you forgot some punctuation.
Those who can, do those who can’t teach.
There I fixed it for you!
My niece is training to be a teacher. She is so lazy that if there was work in her bed she would sleep on the floor. If she could she would skip 35 years of her life and get the fantastic pension teachers get so she could stay in bed all day.
Almost fixed. One comma missing.
It’s fixed to my point of view, not Patrick’s prejudiced poppycock.
There are some great examples of engineering out there to be fair! When a student makes a mistake on paper, the majority of teachers will spot it. It shouldn’t need to be built to be spotted.
That’s 25 contact hours, you’re not thinking of the outside of work hours which involve lesson planning, corrections, dealing with parents..it’s getting more difficult due to some kids thinking they rule the classroom and then go home complaining to mammy and daddy which can result in a tirade of abuse from parents. I’m not saying you’re job is easy I don’t know, just like you don’t know what it’s like to be a teacher
So John why do you not join this wonderful life unless of course your own is even more wonderful.
And if it’s so bad – leave and get another job too
Who gave you the skills to be able to follow a university education?
In going down your challenging route. Did you do it alone or were there “lazy” teachers assisting you?
If the hours won’t affect the students then why are they wasting their time doing them in the first place?
Because the teaching unions lie and have an agenda. They are a joke to their vocation and prevent any worthwhile reform in the sector.
Simple answer; Government policy force them too.
to*
James
IMO unions are a joke full stop!
soooo… the unions signed up to this croke park/Haddington agreement to work additional hours per year in return for pay increments/stability and now they have decided they don’t want to work the hours? that they agreed to.
Really Nick? I bet these workers wish they had a union to protect them?
“POULTRY WORKERS IN the United States are routinely denied bathroom breaks to the point of being forced to wear diapers while on the production line”
http://www.thejournal.ie/employment-rights-workers-contracts-2767112-May2016/
Patrick,
I’m demonstrating where wages and working conditions descend to in the absence of union protection.
Teachers signed up to the Haddington Rd (in a time of crisis) and fulfilled all of their duties under the terms of this agreement. The agreement runs out in June, and teachers are demanding that the terms of the agreement are adhered to as agreed. Refusing to do Croke Park hours in September is not reneging on anything agreed previously.
33 hours over a year? An extra 15_30 mins a week?
It doesn’t work out like that. They are largely for the sake of them. Croke Park lapses and ceases in sept, thus the vote. Instead of being able to use those hours to upskill or plan they are for pointless meetings
@Alien8
I don’t believe you are correct – ASTI signed up to Croke Park (CK) and Haddington Rd (HR) but rejected the Lansdowne Rd (LR) “agreement”, so the extra hrs which were part of HR no longer apply. The Govt has the option of kicking the teachers under FEMPI and plan to do so (block increments, etc) but the teachers have said “go ahead and do it”. You have to admire their resolve since they will lose money.
ps: I am not a teacher!
Well think of it this way, a teacher cannot just walk out of class leaving the kids unsupervised in order to use a toilet!
Wally another strike and you have loads of time to comment while on the picket line.
thanks @connachtabu… refreshing to get a straightforward answer!
The pay increments never came. Very same with the pay restoration for the Gardai
Solidarity with the teachers, the Luas drivers, the Tesco and Cadbury workers, the 999 operators, the nurses, and all workers struggling to obtain a greater share of the wealth which we create. As the data clearly shows, the trend over the past few decades has been overwhelmingly in the opposite direction with greater and greater wealth accumulating to capital owners and less and less to the workers. This has disastrous consequences for society and it’s long past time we reversed the rotten system which sees 62 individuals now holding the same wealth as the poorest half of the globes population, 3500 million people.
Why would there be increments if the OECD scores are dropping and the general pay in the country isn’t increasing?
These hours were a terrible waste of time as nothing was done with them. Teachers should work until 5.30 to get their corrections and planning done but should get overtime if they need to work beyond that for sports/extra curricular activities etc. if they run beyond 5.30.
The unions have been screwing new entrances to save their members pensions now the all want to strike about the deals they did.
Also am I right in say that the pay deductions don’t come off the pensions?
So if the average life expectancy is 80 and a teacher works between 20-60 and they retire on half salary they really earn 25% more than their yearly gross pay? (Excluding tax free lump sum)
Really? 15 mins x 52 weeks = 13 hours. . .not 33 hours. Well the teacher that taught you maths wasn’t the best apparently!
I totally agree with Keith Gregg these are house are not for upskilling they are for stupid meetings which must be had every week. Teachers should be allowed use these hours for class preparation, correcting work, displays etc. I’m not a teacher but do work in a school. SNA have to be available for 72 hrs per year unpaid under the same agreement. Again a waste of time as SNA are not teachers but worth their weight in gold for the amount of work they do.
Cathal O Shea your maths are not great either as I don’t know of any school which is open 52 weeks a year. Do you work extra a week for nothing & not counting the hours that teaching staff do after & before school opens. I know that we are going to have people here who say that teachers have 2 or 3 months holidays a year but I can guarantee that teachers are in the school during the holidays & after school closes. Do you really think that teachers only work school hours.
Well then that guys maths are even worse since 33 weeks x 15 mins = 8.2 hours Will you read my comment and think about it. . .do you not realise that we are on the same side of the argument.
Can you read. Because we are forced to under the Croke Park agreement.
I’m self employed, work unsociable hours, bank holidays, Saturdays and often Sundays all year round ( depending on demand, as does my income!) building up my business. However, I’m not half as knackered, burned out, fed up with being battered from all sides and disillusioned as when I was second level teaching (12 years- great learning curve, but Good God, nobody knows how hard it can be) I still love teaching, did concerts, masses, musicals, extra classes etc. Many of my colleagues did likewise and, if the government was looking for productivity in any meaningful way , they’d see that we’d have the 33 hours done in a month with extra curricular activities, extra classes, correcting, prepping,courses and other planning. The boiling point for many is that none of those activities could be used for the 33 extra hours and so they became useless box ticking exercises which only served to kill good will and separated teachers from their home lives with no benefit to anyone. So to Noel Wilson, John Gallagher, John Clarke and the rest of the begrudgers, I say Go Boil Your Old Head. I’m out in the real world and I’m here to tell you, I find it much easier than teaching- go deal with the disaffected kids, the difficult parents, the rampant bullying from management, the increasing pencil pushing paperwork from the Dept with engineer idiots telling you how easy you have it. Do one week in a classroom and then come back and tell me I’m wrong. Go on I dare ya !
I see that the “conducting of a civilised debate” wasn’t one of your extra curricular activities. Boil our heads?? Nobody is begrudgingly re teachers hours, the point is the pay is commensurate with the low hours, I estimate at about 25% lower than most other full time workers, and we all do extra work outside of paid hours, so don’t go there. Honestly, calling people names never solved anything, maybe they don’t teach that in school anymore D?
You’re getting boring & repetitive Noel. I guarantee you that there isn’t another profession that as a rule does as much out of hours work as teachers. Sure Bertie himself, leader of the country, would be in the pub havin a pint for the photo op, within minutes of the Dáil’s business closing for the day.
But you don’t care about that…you just wanna have a go at the teachers. Which is fitting, because that’s exactly what Bertie and all the other political moochers want you to do.
Sure we saw it everyday in the recession. “Errr…don’t blame us for the recession, it was those darned public servants.” So that’s who they went after. They reduced pay for new teachers and nurses to minimum wage while keeping six figure salaries & expense accounts for themselves -the ones who caused the recession in the first place.
You’ve drank the kool aid & are sitting there toting the party line they want you to. Private Vs Public is the oldest trick in our government’s book & you fell for it like a good little sheep.
Stop trolling Noel- there’s a good boy !
Good for you Noel, you are your own boss, that’s something a teacher will never be
Except I am……
Great news fed up doing pointless, demoralising box ticking. Have lost count of the amount of times training etc has had to be cancelled to facilitate this bullshit excuse for “productivity”.
What about the training days you get?
Secondary teachers don’t get ‘training days’ – only primary school teachers do.
Do we, hmmm thats news to me! So you are telling me that with all the new curricula coming in for the J.C. you will not be getting any training?
Only joke is that the unions voted for them in the first place. It was a way to fix the books, and nothing else. Extra hours in the productivity column while the pay column stayed the same. Made it look like the government were saving money when all they were doing was forcing teachers to sit in the staff room twiddling their thumbs or doing all the stuff they’d have been doing at home anyway.
And the worst part was, that it had to be held outside school hours and every teacher had to attend, sign in, and then spend the entire hour there. Since teachers have families, most schools chose to have them on their half days. But lots of schools also run extra-curricular activities on the afternoons of the half days. There were schools cancelling sports teams, and clubs because the teachers running them were stuck in a nonsense meeting doing nothing.
This is the level of incompetence we voted back into power this time around. They wasted teachers’ time at the expense of the students, and it didn’t even save them any money in the end. Croke Park and Haddington in their totality were a disaster that actually ended up costing money, but let the government get creative with the books so it seemed like they were saving.
Bang on Bryan. What the ASTI should really be saying is something like this: “The Croke Park hours were a fig leaf that the government of the day needed to show the taxpayers that they were clawing back some of the sham ‘benchmarking’ PS pay hikes. We are not playing along with this charade anymore.”
Oh yeah and they should also add: “Now that FF are inching back towards power, we expect a full restoration of our Bertie-era pay and conditions followed by more ‘benchmarking’ across-the-board pay hikes.”
Well it’s only logical. If the TDs are getting it, all the public sector should.
The Croke Park hours prove that these public sector agreements are seriously flawed because of their one-size-fits-all approach, i.e. teachers attending meetings in these hours while other public sector workers simply do their usual work in the extra hours.
One of the passive protests teachers actually used against these hours was to simply sit in the room and do their corrections, class prep .etc .etc instead of whatever nonsense the government decided was important.
Government wasn’t having it at all. They actually forced all the schools to do something…anything during those hours that WASN’T their teaching work. You know…the stuff we do at home in our free time because we don’t get paid for it.
The worst hit are trird level. These 2 hours are lecture hours, so if you add the preparation, exam writing etc. it is extra 6 hours a week. The wimps from TUI are trying to convince us to keep doing them, but they have another thing coming!
Keep the recovery going ! Let’s see how many utterly useless junior Ministerial posts Kenny can find money for while pubic sector workers continued to be screwed.
I can’t understand the mentality of some people. Yes the teachers have ‘cushy’ number in terms of working hours and job security etc but the bottom line is that we should pay them more. They are educated people and they are educating our children for the future benefit of this country. Too many people opt away from teaching as the pay is so low relative to other professions. We need to attract these people to teaching. I would be happy to pay a higher tax if it included an ‘education levy’
I’m not sure I buy the need to attract people to teaching. Seems to be plenty of teachers around. I think before any pay rises occur we need to sort out young teachers who are on temporary contracts too. Thats the worst of whats going on with teachers.
Eucrid
To be honest I don’t have a problem with young people being on temp contracts. Most of us have had it tough in our twenties and I think the experience in its own right can be a positive learning experience.
However, I think the older (middle aged) teachers should be in a significantly higher salary. Within my peer group we have often discussed teachers and although some of us would like the idea of teaching we couldn’t afford to become a teacher due to the salary. This keeps good people away from the profession.
Also in the news the underfunding of schools will force closures. Scandalous at a time when class sizes and the school going population are increasing rapidly.
If it won’t affect the students, it really begs the question – what exactly were they doing with this time?
Busy work so the government bean counters could make it look like they were getting value for money. That’s it…that’s all it was, a complete and utter waste.
The hours were supposed to be for planning.Any school which actually required that much planning during the school year would have been so chaotic that it would need to be closed down.
imitating the British model. which the British are now dropping as it got them nowhere either. i agree with th teachers. working with the students is what education is about. not providng some government department with more beaurocratic work
Bryan, which is generally the problem when government ministers and/or senior civil servants get involved in running things they know nothing about. They introduce change because that, somehow, shows they are working the problem. However, they seldom seem to understand the potential impact of those changes before they disengage and wobble off to screw-up something else that didn’t need fixing.
Teaching: part time job for part time pay; seems fair enough. Start late, finish early, lost count of the number of days/weeks off so far this year, midterms, end terms, training days, service days, strike days and whatever your having yourself days! Hard to take seriously.
Then be a teacher Noel if it’s all so cushy. Most schools start classes at 9 or earlier, so where’s this “start late” thing coming from. 9′s pretty much the universal start time for all industries.
Part-time? Oh buddy…you clearly have no idea what teaching is like at all if you think we clock out at the end of the school day and that’s out work done.
And before you reply to me…don’t bother. I’m post-Croke Park and not on contract. Don’t get paid for holidays so I work teaching EFL during them.
“Part time job” Ignorance is bliss, eh Noel?
Well said Noel, but the amount of teachers prowling this article is unbelievable. So common sense will not win out. I remember when they agreed to keep to their massive pay levels intact and any new entrants get peanuts. Not so long ago was it “Boys and Girls”! Stay positive now…. Don’t forget to bring the rope ladder up with you. Money for old rope ( pun intended ).
Cool story brah
Wonderful, out come the armchair experts. Noel if you even had a clue the amount of work teachers do outside of school hours. When do you think lesson plans get written up or corrections done? We don’t have the luxury of simply clocking off once the clock strikes 4 and chilling out for the evening. – And we might as well be receiving part time pay with the amount of pay cuts or teaching council fees we get deducted, not to mention the fact it takes you almost a decade to find a permanent job, switching between temporary posts from year to year, lucky if you even manage to get a CID. This notion that people are in teaching for the cushy holidays is such bull, anyone who entered teaching with that motivation wouldn’t survive a second in the profession.
Vested interests, and well organised vested interests at that, always defend those interests. Can one of the many teachers actually tell us the truth: how many days do ye go to work per year? No messing now, because we know the story lads.
183 John, what’s your point. 183 days we work (if we’re lucky enough to get it) and 183 days is what we get paid for, it just happens that our pay gets spread over 12 months. And what’s your point? – Do you expect kids to stay in school all year just for the sake of getting more value for money of your teachers?
Or Noel rather
Newsflash, lots of us do work related activities outside of work hours; emails, calls etc. it’s called being “flexible” and is part of productivity in the economy. It’s the new normal in the 21st Century. Nothing special.
I’ll give them a count when I get a chance during the holllidays Noel and get back to you.
The school summer holiday was originally intended to allow farm labourer children to return to their family farm during the busy period. When’s the last time you saw a child farm labourer in Éire? This system is in need of massive updating & overhaul. Many advanced countries have replaced the summer holiday with other activities and are moving up the league tables. Many TDs are former teachers, so don’t want to rock the boat for their brethren in the teaching unions.
You obviously don’t read Waterford Whispers Noel. It reveals thousands of children in Wexford work in the strawberry picking slave trade industry during the summer often working 18 hour days for greedy strawberry barrons in search of ‘red gold’.
Correction…many TDs are former principals and administrators. There’s a joke among teachers, those who are terrible at it go into admin and legislation. Kenny was one too…wouldn’t trust him to take a first class PE group.
Noel, you really should try being a teacher for a week just to see how wrong you are. Start late? Maybe compared to the school systems in other countries but many jobs start at 9 so you’re just making up things to give out about now. Finish early? I think what you mean is teaching students in the classroom finishes early compared to other jobs but the work doesn’t stop there. One example is extracurricular activities for students. How about correcting the students’ work? Preparing resources? Planning for classes as there are multiple learning styles and abilities in the class? Maybe preparing chemicals or setting up and testing equipment for labs? Do you think this all happens by magic? No. It’s hard work that takes time outside of the hours in the classroom. Very rewarding work too. Also, what’s wrong with training days? CPD is important in most professions. You have to keep up to date with new advancements. Anyway, you should do some research before making sweeping generalisations.
Ah Liam, you can’t count. There’s 365 days in most years. Take away weekends, public holidays and “regular” holiday allocations and most people work the rest. Now, for the teachers instead of subtracting the regular holidays please subtract Summer (8-12weeks) Christmas (2 or 3 weeks) midterms (x2 or 3 weeks), Easter (3 weeks inclusive of the rising extra week, very nice lads). Now! What’s the answer Liam? Huh?
Hey Noel. What league tables? What countries? Who takes these activities? Who pays for the activities?
Could you send me on a brochure or a link because I’d like to send my kids to these summer camps and not the ones they are already going to. If they go to your camps and not the local ones here then they might move up this league table and win the league.
The OECD compile comprehensive reports on many aspects of output data including Education in advanced economies. South Korea is the one I remember reading about. Use Google, it’s all there to read. Enjoy.
It’s still 183 working days. Thought maths would be one of your strong suits being an engineer.
Summer is 10 weeks for teachers, we go back before students roughly around 20th-ish. Mid term are only ever 1 week each, Christmas is only ever 2 weeks (where you’re getting 3 weeks for those i don’t know?). Easter this year was almost 3 weeks, which you’re right that was nice, an anomaly simply because the day Easter Sunday fell matched with Paddy’s day, nothing to do with the rising whatsoever, but nice none-the-less. So in total 52-17= 35 weeks this year so 175 days, although normally around 52-16=36 weeks or 180.
South Korea? Ha Ha Ha. Have you been? I have and they destroy students before they even get a job
Use Google yourself but don’t believe everything you read.
Now add the service days, training days, strike days and the rest and you’ll be getting closer to 170 odd, whereas most full time workers work a 48 or 49 week year. Take 48 x 5 = 240 days. That differential of 60 ( your figure of 180) or 70 days Is what I’m referring to as “Part time Job”, that equates to another TWELVE WEEKS off during the year even on your figures! Astonishing stuff. Btw I’m not the engineer somebody is having a go at, you’ve lost track Mr D.
Service days and training days are also in every other profession, do you not believe they should be counted as work? And every other group of worker have the same right to strike [which we don't get paid for?].
Our 36 week salary is spread over 52 weeks reflected in our pay scales already, we start at 31,000 [that's assuming the incredibly unlikely possiblity that you somehow manage to get a fulltime job straight out of college, for most it takes 5 or 6 years, you just manage to scrape contracts with 10-15 hours worth of work a week until you get a CID] over the course of our careers our highest possible salary for a teacher after 25 years of service is 59,940, comparatively low to other professions that require the same qualifications and after the same length of service
Teachers prowling this…….FFS, you obviously didn’t spend too much time listening to them
Overly subjective “opinion” article written by someone with a biased view. Interesting that you went from asking which “league tables” and “which countries” (implying that there no such datasets available) to unearthing this when the dataset and and an example country was readily supplied. Seems you know how to “Goggle” after all :)
Good one! You should find the time somehow me thinks!
Why do you think you have exclusivity on working on “after the bell” ?? I can’t remember the last day I didn’t do an extra hour or more per day, or the odd Saturday / Sunday as well. And my wife works 3 out of every 4 Sundays as well.
At no point did any of us call exclusivity on working ‘after the bell’, we’re just calling BS on the people who seem to be trying to spread the false notion that we’re slackers, working as little as possible or simply in teaching for the holidays. You work into the evenings and over the weekends, so do we.
The OECD do indeed issue fascinating reports Noel. You might take a glance at this Irish Times article. Apparently Irish teachers have the 4th most teaching hours from 21 European countries surveyed. This is exclusive of additional hours foisted upon teachers to massage figures via Croke Park, Haddington Road and Landsdowne and also fails to recognise volunteerism for extra curricular activities like sports, debates and preparing for exams.http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/do-irish-teachers-work-long-hours-by-international-standards-1.2235805
The problem with these divisive comments and threads is that there are people who think being a student or parent gives them a real insight into teaching. It does not. There is also the perception that teachers have no idea how the real world workers work. The latter is true of some in my experience as a teacher who has worked in many schools and countries. People really should try and resist the temptation to pretend they know more than they do about sp many topics specific to another profession. E.g The south korea reference..nothing is taught from mid december to march and there is two months off in tbe summer. League tables are nonsense amd pure gov pr. South korean parents pay through the nose ..500euros a month at least for after school study . If you are working class you are done.
Nonsense, this is a social media newsfeed and anyone is free to contribute their views, as long as they stay on topic and don’t get personal. By your logic, only e.g. HSE works could comment on the health services waiting lists? Perhaps only Car salesmen should comment on Volkswagens emissions scandal? Really?
Fact is, teachers enjoy relatively low working hours and commensurate pay. These pay deals were meant to be a mechanism to introduce more balance & productivity and now the teachers have unilaterally decided to stop working these hours, and have ergo broken the agreement with the people’s representatives, the Government. Any citizen, any taxpayer, absolutely has the right to question and comment. Sorry.
Wasn’t a pay deal Noel…stop embarrassing yourself by talking about stuff you clearly know nothing about.
This article was SOLELY about the ridiculous, unproductive, and frankly damaging hours the government threw on forbid reason other than to fudge the books. Which you’d know if you took 5 seconds to read the comments from actual teachers talking about the actual topic of the article.
P.S: It’s rich of you to pull the whole “This is the Internet, what do you expect?” argument when you’re in an earlier comment literally tone policing someone who didn’t agree with your massively uninformed view.
OECD tables are there for all to see. Hours/days are there for all to count. Rabble debating skills are there for all to judge. Sorry if we’re “boring” you here Liam. Btw, South Korea is only one model delivering better results than ours. I could have said Canada, Finland, Denmark etc etc. There are many to choose from in fairness, by your own admission the system is broken, stop attacking those with an interested voice please, it really won’t solve anything.
@Noel
All those countries also have greater investment in education, and no 30yr old pre-fabs to teach in.
So I’ll tell you what. You contact your local TD, get on them to solve the problems in educational investment and policies. You’ve only to look at the earlier articles about schools threatened with closure now because of lack of funds, or the one that finally got classrooms after 20 years of pre-fabs to see that the teachers & the unions aren’t the problem.
But you don’t care about that. You just wanna whinge about teachers because..actually I’ve no idea. You just keep moaning with no real end goal in sight. Go on then Noel, tell me how going after the teachers (read up on what Croke Park did to this generation of teachers first) will fix the educational system.
It won’t. All you’re doing is crying over the fact that there’s professions out there that *gasp* don’t work the way yours does. Go whinge at the TDs who gifted themselves an extra 2 month holiday (with full pay) or shit the ever loving up.
Just saw on the news that this move could lead disruption of education, and to withholding of pay restoration and retaliatory strikes, which will disrupt kids education even more, and you tell us we have no right to comment and we don’t know what we’re talking about and we should keep quiet. Bedlam.
Never said you’ve no right to comment, just that you should probably know what you’re talking about when you do.
And again, I have to ask; How is that the teachers fault. Seriously, just save me a lot of time and actually read the earlier comments from other teachers. These extra hours accomplished NOTHING, and had the side-effect of forcing schools to close after-school sports and clubs.
There is ZERO benefit to keeping these hours, but there IS benefit to getting rid of them (those extra-curricular activities). If the government’s throwing its toys out of the pram and threatening to pull all that other stuff, if the teachers won’t do those hours that are utterly pointless and harmful to students’ extra-curriculars, then I’ve got news for you…
…
…the teachers aren’t the problem.
Noel, Teachers fulfilled all their duties under the Haddington Rd agreement. The agreement runs until June 2016, and then ends. Once it ends, teachers have chosen not to continue working under the conditions it enforced. No agreement broken at all.
@Noel Wilson
The agreement expires on 30th June. Teachers have adhered to the deal and will continue to do so until the 30th June. Once the agreement expires the teachers could continue to do the hours but have decided not to do the hours.
I have an agreement to repay my mortgage to my lender for a until an agreed date. When that date passes I will not be paying them any more money. Why should the teachers work the hours after the agreement expires?
A good point Noel…its a pity we are following the UK and US then isnt it??
I respect what teachers do. It takes dedication and considerable financial outlay to pursue teaching as a career path. Not to mention the perseverance required in the current job climate before a job presents itself with reasonable hours and within a practicable commute. There is a lot of time off, but teachers will never be parking Range Rovers in the school parking lot either. So the perk of time off is nice. And – with the exception of NQTs- the pay is reasonable. NQTs of course, deserve proper pay and conditions. It’s wholesale ridiculous that they are being denied same. But I suspect the same unions driving for abandoning Croke Park hours has as much culpability in the current situation NQTs face as anyone else. Ladders being pulled up and all that…
We all work extra time. Every job demands it. I spent almost a decade in a detention center and often stayed upwards of 16 hours after my shift was completed; in conditions that would never be faced (or believed) in many professions. The role demanded it. I spent my evening tonight preparing case files for Court tomorrow for a different job that I do now.
Croke Park hours should not be spent wasted in a staff room. If they are, then the teachers and unions are guilty of wasting them too. Perhaps before abandoning them, methods of effective allocation of hours could be explored. Example: schools without School Completion Officers or Home School Liaison Officers could work on improving attendance for kids presenting with regular absence. Example: homework clubs. Example: making available additional literacy/ maths resource hours that would be optional for kids who the school knows to be struggling but can’t access supports from the NCSE. They should never be wasted and that they are being wasted is an indictment of sorts on everyone involved.
As for service and training days, yes, they happen in every job. But primary schools open 183 days per year and secondary schools open for 167. Such CPD could and (in my opinion) should happen outside of these.
I feel sorry for newly qualified teachers. They have it hard and that needs to be rectified. I honestly do value what teachers do for our country. I understand without them we’d be screwed. But the unions have created a culture where the status quo is defended at all costs. That culture can sometimes border on stagnation.
Teaching is not rocket science. You need to like kids and have a good standard of education. You don’t need to have any life experience because you are not educating children for life. No, you are preparing them for the economy, so you only need to make sure their brains are capable of absorbing the required information and responding to that. Thinking is not obligatory. Luckily, the teaching profession still attracts genuine people. People who would like to open their pupils minds.They spend half their time trying not to be ground down by the system. The pupils who have these teachers are very lucky indeed.
Teachers my arse their pay needs to be related to results a coefficient system that weeds out the dead weight no point in having people standing at the front of a class not knowing whats going on dreaming about extended vacation
UK tried that with OFSTED. The result…a complete unmitigated disaster. Schools fudging their exam results, teachers with so much paperwork and red tape to get through they had no time to devote to teaching.
This isn’t even an exaggeration. I’ve met many British teachers in other countries, who were working there simply because of what a balls up tying in funding and teachers’ pay to students’ performance was.
@ Upowthat Burke
Where would your coefficient system rank the students with Downs Syndrome/Cri de Chat/ASG/Dyspraxia/Dyslexia/Dyscalculia or other specific learning difficulty – or combinations of specific learning difficulties?
Some children with these obvious learning difficulties are not even entitled to a Special Needs Assistant.
It would be difficult to compare their teacher’s ability to teach when you can’t compare the student’s ability to learn. Some students with dyspraxia are highly intelligent, but don’t have the fine motor control to write, or maybe even speak. Some students with ASG are also highly intelligent but lack the finer points of social interactions.
Your suggestion is flawed, as it would only marginalise the students that already have difficulties. These students are great students, but more likely to be students that obtain low grades in ordinary or foundation level subjects. For most of these students, this is a fantastic achievement which would be overlooked under your suggested system.
Bryan Kelly et al. Resorting to personal slants is an indicator of losing your argument. I’m neither a teacher nor engineer, but work in engineering. There are 260 workabke days on a year. Subracting statutory and other holidays means no matter how I try I cannot work less than 230 days a year. You’re doing 180+ how many ? 5? Even if I say 10? For an educated bunch you’re doing a ‘Luas’ on courting public opinion.
Here here John, simple arithmetic . (And yes, always a sign of someone of the back foot, kicking the man, not the ball :)
And yet you’ve proven yourself utterly incapable of responding to any of my counterpoints. I’m an English teacher by the way. Love the English language. Love to throw in some colloquialisms, idioms, and slang.
The argument that somebody resorting to personal attacks automatically results in them losing the argument is simply the last, desperate resort of people who can’t stand on the merits of their own arguments. My using of colourful language, and hyperbolic imagery does nothing but to add a bit of variety to my comments (which, judging by the thumbs seems to be a big hit with the readers).
Look in between the hyperbole and actually read the perfectly valid, and informed points I’ve made in response to your hilariously reactionary, self-centred commentary. Then try and come up with a valid response to them other than “Waaaaaah…you’re being mean. That means we’re right!”
Honestly, I can understand why you seem to hate teachers so much. You must have had some pretty terrible ones if the best you can come up with is; “Well, you said some not nice things…that means I’m right.”
Honestly, if anything, you’re evidence that we need more investment and resources in teaching. If you learned that “Well you’re being rude, so I’m going to equate moral superiority with intellectual superiority” from your teachers then I can completely understand why you hate teachers.
Fortunately, the vast majority of current teachers don’t teach that introspective, self-declarative nonsense.
You may have a qualification as an English teacher, bit a verbosity is no measure of language competence. You’re just undermining any merit in your case. Say more, better, with less.
It’s descended into a rant now alright. I rest my case m’lord. Bryan, take deep breaths, two aspirin, and call someone in the morning. Nobody hates teachers here btw. I had some excellent ones, some that taught us to think independently and always question the status quo, to ask “why?” and beware a mob mentality. Thumbs count for nothing. They were well paid and remunerated in-kind for their job. Goodnight and good luck young man.
Ah…so within moments of complaining about my personal attacks, you decide to launch personal attacks?
Sweet jebus lads…at least try and maintain some continuity in your non-sensical nonsense.
It’s up to the government to decide what they want teachers to do.
If the government want a box ticking exercise to take place then teachers should comply.
By that logic it’s the government’s job to tell the nurses, doctors, Gards .etc .etc what to do and for the, to do it. Would you be defending the government forcing doctors into box ticking exercises instead of seeing patients? It’s almost like professional bodies exist to provide insight from the frontline staff to temper the policies of ministers who never set foot in a classroom or haven’t in decades.
Get out of here with your lack of understanding about how the education system AND the government works.
This is obviously an emotive issue but the basic fact of the matter is that these people teach and have the ability to inspire the future of this country. I don’t see what the point was in ‘working’ an extra 33 hours a year just to tick a box and were actually precluded from doing actual relevant schoolwork. That said I strongly think that the whole employment structure needs to be drastically overhauled, the fact that it is virtually impossible for a teacher to be fired is ridiculous, some have tenure for life while others have rolling temporary contracts. Why not get rid of the inequality within the profession and put everyone on a level playing field and then weed out the tired and stake teachers that give the whole profession a bad name. I think this would provide the catalyst for a huge reinvigoration of the sector….unions in their self interest again seem to be the only stumbling block….
Please bear with me whilst I make a few points and give a little background! I hope I can convey a few vital points..
I am 51, I am a B.Sc H.Dip graduate with a Dip in Ind Relations (and a few other little qualifications too). When I came out of College in the 80′s I (thought) I had no interest in Teaching as a Career and being young and whatever else, decided that I would not go the Teaching route. So, off I went, for 12 Years into the ‘Private Sector’ and had a very successful career working as a QA Manager in a Plastics Co. and implemented ISO9000 systems etc etc and I did well for myself and earned good money as a young graduate- and please remember this was at a terrible time economically and otherwise in the country. Then, for a whole variety of reasons-which are irrelevent here- I changed Career in 1994 ( and dont even try to go there as to the work I had to put in) and with a lot of determination, dedication, sweat and sacrifice, I returned to Teaching as a Secondary School Science teacher. I made a massive amounts of sacrifices. I started Teaching in 1994 and I am still Teaching now.
- I think I am WELL PLACED – if not better placed, than most, to make some comments..
1. For my first 5/6 years, and probably still, if asked; in terms of TIME (which is what this debate is all about in some ways), I would parallel 40 mins in a Classroom = 3 Hours in my ‘Industry’ job. (Why???) Ans: Intensity of the interaction; Pressure of Performance; Behavoural patterns of Children vs Adults; Expectations of any Result(s) from a child vs Adult (totally different and calls for a unique and special skills set) and TIME is not a measurable quotient to deliver results..
- 2.Stress Levels: There simply is NO COMPARISON between dealing with 13-18 year olds sets of demands, expectations, issues, expectations etc…You really HAVE TO TRY IT TO UNDERSTAND..
- 3. Salary: We wont even go there.. I earned 32K as a young ‘whippersnapper’ in the early 90′s and, looking back now, was I worth it, I dont know, but when I left that era of financial awards it took me 11 YEARS to reach the same level in teaching… work it out…
- 4.Rewards/Incentives: The ‘rewards’ financially or otherwise are non-existent; save, very importantly, you work damn hard and you give of your best, and hopefully – as they do, parents and children appreciate your work..
-5. Career Satisfaction/ Suitability: Its Tough, very tough a lot of the times. Mke no mistake. When I hear about HOURS/DAYS people work and the MYTH about non-teaching Professions working LONG HOURS, I cringe; you have to experience it- as I did – to understand, and appreciate it.
Finally, is it ROCKET SCIENCE? NO! But it can be Science in a ROCKET many days.I firmly believe that it does require a very UNIQUE skills set that MOST of the population do not have…its fine to rant about TIME, MONEY, HOURS, HOLIDAYS etc but all of that is futile if the system isnt working. And IT Is, thanks to a VERY UNIQUE group of individuals, happened to be called TEACHERS…but it aint for everyone. You would never know, like me, until you try it….
ps. I think I am a reasonably good teacher..
Does this include Croke Park hours for SNAs? Anyone know?
Most SNA’s I know are represented by IMPACT so I’d say not. As far as I know this only applies for ASTI members (so this wont apply to TUI teachers either)
“Schoooools, out, for, 33 hours!”
The sooner we utilise new technology in our education system the better. 33 hours! it is so utterly futile in the grande scheme of learning. You wonder why any young person would want to be a teacher ii is such a surreal disconnected world detached from reality and probably fast losing ground. The brightest and best will go elsewhere for sure.
Please bear with me whilst I make a few points and give a little background! I hope I can convey a few vital points..
I am 51, I am a B.Sc H.Dip graduate with a Dip in Ind Relations (and a few other little qualifications too). When I came out of College in the 80′s I (thought) I had no interest in Teaching as a Career and being young and whatever else, decided that I would not go the Teaching route. So, off I went, for 12 Years into the ‘Private Sector’ and had a very successful career working as a QA Manager in a Plastics Co. and implemented ISO9000 systems etc etc and I did well for myself and earned good money as a young graduate- and please remember this was at a terrible time economically and otherwise in the country. Then, for a whole variety of reasons-which are irrelevent here- I changed Career in 1994 ( and dont even try to go there as to the work I had to put in) and with a lot of determination, dedication, sweat and sacrifice, I returned to Teaching as a Secondary School Science teacher. I made a massive amounts of sacrifices. I started Teaching in 1994 and I am still Teaching now.
- I think I am WELL PLACED – if not better placed, than most, to make some comments..
1. For my first 5/6 years, and probably still, if asked; in terms of TIME (which is what this debate is all about in some ways), I would parallel 40 mins in a Classroom = 3 Hours in my ‘Industry’ job. (Why???) Ans: Intensity of the interaction; Pressure of Performance; Behavoural patterns of Children vs Adults; Expectations of any Result(s) from a child vs Adult (totally different and calls for a unique and special skills set) and TIME is not a measurable quotient to deliver results..
- 2.Stress Levels: There simply is NO COMPARISON between dealing with 13-18 year olds sets of demands, expectations, issues, expectations etc…You really HAVE TO TRY IT TO UNDERSTAND..
- 3. Salary: We wont even go there.. I earned 32K as a young ‘whippersnapper’ in the early 90′s and, looking back now, was I worth it, I dont know, but when I left that era of financial awards it took me 11 YEARS to reach the same level in teaching…. work it out…
- 4.Rewards/Incentives: The ‘rew
How long is an teachers week ( as per contract) how many days if the year as they contractual meant to work for ?
And before I get a deluge of criticisms like: ” Margate, i think you should return to that old, well paid, private industry job as you sound bitter and resentful” or similar…the answer is No; I love what I do, I know i GIVE OF MY BEST at all times in the job;, yes, it is a Vocation, and its damn hard, in a way that most other Careers are NOT…
To think to civil servants are going to increase their working week to 30 hours while this group want to cut theirs is funny. The Civil Servants work an average of 28 hours with holidays, authorised sick days, real sick days and family days off, also add training for Masters degree’ s and other exams sure why bother going in to work at all.
Sorry I duplicated, hit wrong key prematurely, apologies..
People need realise that teachers do work outside school hours. They do this in order to correct work, get ready for the following school day. Teachers work in after school activities like music or sports for example.
There will be no disruption to students as these hours to not involve students… Inaccurate reporting here
Chief hobby of the Irish Public Sector:
“Gimmeeee more moneeeee.”
Efficiency?
What’s that?
Yeah…because forcing teachers to engage in literally do-nothing meetings, which were held at times that forced the closure of after-school clubs and activities, is totally productive.
If you don’t know what the hells you’re talking about, then follow the old axiom of keeping your mouth shut so that the world doesn’t know you’re a fool.
…and us special needs assistants have to do 72 bloody hours. It’s the biggest waste of time and killer of morale and spirit. It’s doesn’t benefit the students in and way. We sit and clock watch for that hour every week.
have your say