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TAOISEACH ENDA KENNY has been accused of misleading the Dáil over statements he made during a debate on the planned Citizens Assembly and the Eighth Amendment, on Wednesday.
David Gorman in Dublin 11 got in touch, asking us to examine his claims, so we did.
(Remember, if you see a claim that doesn’t sound right, email factcheck@thejournal.ie).
Claim: Voters on three occasions chose to keep the provisions of the Eighth Amendment Verdict: FALSE.
What was said
During questions to the Taoiseach on Wednesday, and in an exchange with AAA/PBP TD Bríd Smith, Kenny said the following:
…The fact of the matter is that in 1983, the Eighth amendment was introduced into Bunreacht na hÉireann, the Irish constitution, by the Irish people.
And that was a guarantee to the right to life of the unborn. There were three referenda after that, and in each case, in each of those referenda, by the people, not just by any parties, the people decided to keep that reference in the constitution.
AAA/PBP TD Ruth Coppinger interjected:
Sorry, Ceann Comhairle, that’s completely incorrect. People did not vote on the Eighth Amendment. They voted on side issues, like information.
Kenny followed up:
The insertion into the constitution of the Eighth Amendment, guaranteeing the right to life of the unborn, was endorsed by the people, interpreted by the Supreme Court, we legislated for that in respect of the Protection of Life bill in the period of the last government.
The Abortion Rights Campaign, which is calling for the repeal of the Eighth Amendment, called Kenny’s claim “untrue.”
TFMR Ireland, the campaign to make the termination of a pregnancy legal for medical reasons, said the Taoiseach had “deliberately misled the Dáil”, and called on him to correct his statement.
The Eighth Amendment in 1983 created subsection 3 of section 3 of Article 40 of the constitution:
The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.
Subsequent to that, there were two referenda (not three) on four proposed constitutional amendments relating to abortion.
Let’s refer to what the Eighth Amendment created as “subsection 3″, and see what those two referenda addressed.
In March 1992, the Supreme Court ruling in the “X Case” effectively allowed for abortion where a woman’s life is in danger, including a risk of suicide (among other provisions).
Later that year, three constitutional amendments stemming from the X Case were placed on the ballot in a referendum on the same day.
The 12th Amendment, 25 November 1992
Would have retained the ban on abortion except where a woman’s life is in danger, but effectively retracted the suicide exception introduced in the X Case, and inserted these words at the end of subsection 3:
It shall be unlawful to terminate the life of an unborn unless such termination is necessary to save the life, as distinct from the health, of the mother where there is an illness or disorder of the mother giving rise to a real and substantial risk to her life, not being a risk of self-destruction.
That amendment was defeated.
The 13th Amendment, 25 November 1992
Allowed women to travel in and out of Ireland to terminate a pregnancy, by inserting this paragraph at the end of subsection 3:
This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.
That amendment was passed.
The 14th Amendment, 25 November 1992
Allowed for the distribution of information on abortion services available outside Ireland, by inserting this paragraph at the end of subsection 3:
This subsection shall not limit freedom to obtain or make available, in the State, subject to such conditions as may be laid down by law, information relating to services lawfully available in another state.
That amendment was passed.
The 25th Amendment, 6 March 2002
Would have retained the ban on abortion except in cases where a woman’s life is in danger, but retracted the suicide exception, by implementing the proposed Protection of Human Life in Pregnancy Act and creating subsections 4 and 5 after subsection 3 in section 3 of Article 40 of the constitution.
That amendment was defeated.
We asked the Taoiseach’s department for evidence to support his claim, but did not receive a response, so we’ll have to try to interpret it ourselves.
There are two possible interpretations of the Taoiseach’s claim. As a reminder, this was the crucial part:
There were three referenda after that [the Eighth Amendment in 1983], and in each case, in each of those referenda, by the people, not just by any parties, the people decided to keep that reference in the constitution.
If by “that reference” he meant subsection 3 itself (that is, what the Eighth Amendment created), then the claim is clearly FALSE.
None of the four amendments proposed replacing or removing subsection 3, and therefore voters were never asked whether they wanted to “keep” it.
The 25th Amendment would have left subsection 3 completely untouched, but added subsections 4 and 5.
Three of them (the 12th, 13th and 14th) proposed adding words to subsection 3. One of those (the 12th) was rejected, and the other two were passed.
So out of the three cases where it was proposed that words be added to subsection 3 (not that subsection 3 be removed), voters only rejected one of them.
By “that reference” Kenny could have meant the Eight Amendment’s “guarantee to the right to life of the unborn” which he referred to in the Dáil.
However, his claim is FALSE even under this much broader interpretation.
Voters have never been asked whether they wanted to keep, remove or replace that guarantee in the constitution.
In the 12th and 25th Amendments, they were asked whether they wanted to add an exception to the abortion ban where a woman’s life is in danger, and a non-exception where there is a risk of suicide.
The guarantee itself (and its wording) would have stayed in place, but it would not have been an absolute guarantee.
The dynamic of the 12th Amendment campaign (several high-profile bishops and pro-life groups called for a No vote), probably meant that the voters’ rejection of it was a move towards an absolute guarantee.
So the Taoiseach is probably right in this case, but only if you interpret the guaranteed right to life of the unborn as an absolute guarantee.
The dynamic of the 25th Amendment campaign was different. Opinion polls in the Irish Independent and Ireland on Sunday showed only 22 and 23% of voters opposed abortion under any circumstances.
Groups like the Irish Council on Civil Liberties, the National Women’s Council of Ireland, and Abortion Reform were strongly against the amendment, while Irish bishops came out in favour of it.
The voters’ rejection of it should therefore be interpreted as a move away from any absolute guaranteed right to life of the unborn, and a move to keep the exceptions effectively brought in under the X Case.
But again, that guarantee itself was never in jeopardy in either of those amendments.
The 13th and 14th Amendments were about the right to travel outside the jurisdiction and the right to information about services available outside the jurisdiction, and therefore had no bearing on the guaranteed right to life of the unborn.
Under one interpretation (that voters decided to keep the provisions of the Eighth amendment), Kenny’s claim was entirely FALSE.
Voters have never been asked whether or not they wanted to keep, replace or remove Article 40.3.iii of the constitution, which is what the Eighth Amendment created.
Under a broader interpretation (that voters decided to keep the spirit of the Eighth Amendment, the guaranteed right to life of the unborn), the Taoiseach is probably right about only one out of the four constitutional amendments in question.
And he is only right if the guarantee in the constitution is strictly interpreted as an absolute guarantee.
For that reason, the claim is also FALSE under this interpretation.
We asked the Taoiseach’s office whether he accepted that his claims were false, and if he would be retracting or modifying them, but we did not receive a response.
You can read the full transcript of Wednesday’s debate here, or watch the video here: Part 1 (starts 46 mins), Part 2.
Send your FactCheck requests to factcheck@thejournal.ie
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I really like this Fact Check. Keep up the good work The Journal. This is just about the only forum for real accountability of our slippery politicians.
If enda Jenny opened his mouth and noise came out then yes he did mislead the dail
Was just about to post the same thing. These articles are great (and this one particularly good as it picks apart some pretty technical details). If the Journal did nothing else but these pieces, it would still be well worth a regular visit. Great to see.
Its a shocking indictment of our political system when this g0bsh%te can get away with this.
Credit to Ruth Coppinger as well.
He knows it, but doesn’t want to deal with it and that is a fact. It could tear his rotten/lying/corrupt party apart, he is afraid of it and who will hold him to account on it anyway?
It’s one thing to have your opinion of abortion but it’s another to deny people a referendum. That’s undermining the democratic process and if Pro-lifers are so certain in their convictions I cannot fathom why they feel the need to block a referendum.
Killing should never be put to a referendum
Why would those who support the 8th amendment want to Vote to not change it?
It’s flat out, undemocratic.
Because you believe you should be allowed your opinion on abortion but others should not have there’s even if it’s called for in a legal sense. This is literally the definition of exacting your will on others. A trend throughout your perspectives.
@Paddy It completely is. Denying a democratic process is markedly different in believing in a right to life from conception.
Bottom line is that if you believe your argument is strong enough you shouldn’t have a problem putting it to the people. By arguing against a referendum they are admitting that their argument is weak and wouldn’t pass.
That’s it exactly. So they come on places like here, argue often incoherently and then scream “victory” from the rafters because they haven’t the ability to recognise the credence of the opposing opinion. Or they pretend not to but know enough to think that in a referendum, they will lose.
Well when do we get to vote again on same-sex marriage and divorce again?? .. And let’s take another on the death penalty as well….!!!!!
The anti-choicer’s are quaking in their boots because the majority want to repeal the eight -Fact .
We can if you want but the results will be the same. Where is the demand for another referendum on ssm? A generation has passed since the last abortion referendum. The stranglehold of the Catholic Church has lessened: so much has changed. You can bet your house Scotland will be having a referendum again in the next few years too. If the demand is there… let it happen.
But the murder of women and doctors is grand????
Also what right do you or I or anyone else have to tell another what they can or cannot do with their own body?? As long as an embryo / foetus is inside a woman’s body it is part of her
Stephen you’re more than welcome to open a debate on any of those things and if your argument is strong enough to get enough support for a referendum I’d welcome it. That’s democracy. I don’t honestly think they would but another story.
Stephen you are aware of the fact that the women that this concerns never got to vote on it.
Well they won’t get their vote for a long time. Fact
Tom.who are they..a referendum is open for all the electorate to vote on..why are you so against that idea.
Its simple really. Those that oppose a referendum do so because they fear they will lose. That is exactly why we should have a referendum. People change, populace changes, opinions change as people grow up. A referendum back in thd 90′s does not define a country forever, a referendum is called so the people in the now can make a decision. If this gov- whats there now- want new politics then give the people what they want – a referendum on abortion.
Sparky it’s obvious that Tom doesn’t believe that anti choice argument is strong enough to convince the majority of voters so the only other option is to try and stop the referendum altogether. That is a blatantly undemocratic position to take.
Rosie, face check your fact..have you got stats!
“Some 64 per cent said they were in favour of repealing the amendment, 25 per cent were against and 11 per cent had no opinion.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/majority-for-repeal-of-eighth-amendment-poll-shows-1.2544564
Hope this helps :)
You know what should be a reality..we should not judge what a person decides to do with their body, no matter what. Its their body, what happens to it is their issue, and they should be allowed to deal with it without consternation. You and us on this forum will not change someones mind. In fact your arguments might solidate feelings. So for both sides..just be aware what you are posting.
Anti-choicer Cora Sherlock calling for a referendum on the 8th in 2013. Why the u-turn?
Jenni, a baby is not “their body”, this about abortion not hip replacements.
It’s their body and their life. Not one of you are offering to raise these children just condemning some woman to do so and that’s the type of citizen you want to be or have? Like it or not abortion is happening. The only women that aren’t are the poor ones. I’m sure you’re all dying for them to procreate.
A foetus is not a baby; a baby is not a foetus..
A baby certainly isn’t “their body”, that’s ridiculous. I’m not condemning anyone to anything but you are condemning the unborn child to death. Is that the type of citizen you want to be? Can these “poor” women not afford the pill or rubbers?
Fiona, you can call it whatever you want, dehumanizing the unborn is just a tool to lessen the guilt and shame of abortion.
So not only do you want a referendum now, but you’re looking for one every 30 years..?? The people knew the imprecations of putting protection of unborn children into the constitution and they went ahead and did it. Goodness knows the pro-abortionists pointed the implications often enough.
Tony, it is a mattervofvdefintion. A baby is produced by the process of cf birth., birth is a precondition if babyhood. That is where your cognitive distortion arises.
Stephen have the women this referendum represents had a chance to vote on it..
No but their mothers did, luckily they didn’t decide to abort their babies.
Abortion is anti human. Its just evil ffs.
“cognitive distortion”…. Don’t make me laugh….
Same Sex Marriage and abortion are completely difference issues (obviously). But anybody wishing to predict the outcome of such a referendum should ask themselves these questions. How many of the people that vote against SSM would vote for the removal of the 8th. And how many of those that voted for SSM would to retain the 8th. Answer those questions and I think you’ll find the result will not be the foregone conclusion that the pro-abortion side are claiming. I can’t see the repeal the 8th getting the “granny vote” that the SSM lobby claimed to have gotten. Despite my belief that the 8th would be retained I am opposed to the holding of a referendum on the basis that the pro-abortion side, when they lose this referendum will keep coming back and back and back and it would set a president that will have others looking for the removal of SSM from the constitution or the return of the death penalty. This “why are you afraid of having a referendum” stinks of the use of the term “chicken” to Marty McFly in Back to the Future.
Tony your one ignorant guy.
Fiona DeFreyne is pro Israel. pro abortion, pro mercury in vaccines, pro fluoride, ..generally pro evil I’d say.
And so the insults begin….the truly ignorant resort to that when they are beaten sparkle.
And it’s “you’re”, seeing as you brought up ignorance.
No Tony it’s not an insult…it’s a fact..your comment previous comment at best was just an insult.
Tony have you ever asked yourself as to why some women have an abortion,
And incorrect spelling is not ignorance.
Lol… I suggest you look up the definition of it.
Defination of what exactly..ignorance..or, it..I think I’d find you under both explanations..sorry for the insult..
”pro abortion, pro mercury in vaccines, pro fluoride”
So pro science and common sense basically? Interesting that many of ye misogynistic anti-choice religious nuts are against the HPV vaccine as ye don’t want those silly wimen having sex.
Look at the trolls fake facebook profile folks.
Which one, all I see is trolls?
Look at Bryan Whaley’s’..check his banner out in his FB profile.
Defo not Irish.
Ziggy great you took the time to look that fact up.
Yeah I wonder if those pics were ripped off another facebook account..
What’s irish got to do with it ziggy…ur sounding like a racist..maybe substitute irish for catholic,then realise everyone living in this country legally has a voice.
Where abouts in Ireland are you from Sparky?
Why does that bother you…maybe I live in the bog next to urs..
IS that really so sparky?
Is that all ya got ziggy..get the sun cream out..you got burnt..and not by saving the turf….is that irish enough for you
Stop being such a schmuck sparky.
Why you call me a schmuck..I only answered your questions. Sorry if they didn’t concur with your opinion.
I’d suggest you stop giving yourself the little thumbs up.
You should stop thumbing down your own comments also.
Actually keep doing it if it eases your conscience a wee bit :)
How exactly would thumbing down my own comments ease my conscience..I’m intrigued by your response.
You don’t really believe and support the demonic ideology of murdering unborn human beings… ..maybe..perhaps?
Ziggy I am very much Irish and real using my own name and facebook which is a lot more than you are doing under your anonymous twitter account. What, if anything, does that have to do with what we are discussing?
Bryan Whaley is not an Irish name.
An unborn human being..explain that one to me please..I do support the right of choice,and I do understand that abortions are not carried out without careful consideration by the women involved.
Ohhh the irony ziggy.is….an American cartoon character.
I know Bryan, the irony..a genuinely sincere real Irish guy using a fake American cartoon character as his avatar.
I’m nearly choking here lol.
Ziggy your the one who brought irish into the debate..why didn’t you call yourself bosco.
Ziggy, I regret that my name has not passed your little ”Irishness” test. I am, however, very much Irish, much more so than the rent a crowd from America that Yank Defence had marching in Dublin. Now do you have any arguments to make to the point being discussed or are you just going to call everyone you disagree with a troll and not Irish? As if that makes their point anyway less valid.
I think that the comments of Ziggy722 point to a degree of oddity and irrationality which is not amenable to reason. He is off the scale.
@Stephen, Thats called devolution!
FYI Ziggy here is a list of Whaley’s from the 1901/1911 cecsus.
*census
@Ziggy, Dealing in black and white I see….. How about a couple of shades of gray for good measure: Is it evil to terminate a child to save a mother’s life? Or conversly to continue with a pregancy knowing it will endanger a mother’s life or that a child will not likely survive to full term? Is it evil to force a woman to bear a child concieved through rape?
Where I do agree with you that a woman body is her own, but if I did not stand up for the right of the unborn I would not have had have my three sons and daughter today who I love more than life itself, if I had been weaker and bowed to pressure from the parents of my girlfriend
Science can never resolve a moral question Bryan.
As for women having sex, do you not believe in personal responsibility?
If a woman believes that by having sex it is going to result in her having to have an abortion, would she be right to do that? If she did, it would be by any reasonable judgement, be gratuitously immoral.
To put self gratification ahead of a human life would be a reckless act.
Ah sure all those women are just going out to get preggers knowing that they have the famous “birth control” called abortion to fall back on ..
Jebus definitely weeps uncontrollably every second of the day for the anti-choice people in this world of ours ..
You’ll find rapists are so inconsiderate at times and often choose to ignore birth control.
”Science can never resolve a moral question”
That is simply your opinion and has no basis in reality.You can choose to ignore scientific fact all you like. I do indeed believe in personal responsibility and I also believe in a woman’s choice to do with her body as she wishes.
Are there any examples of science settling moral or ethical questions Bryan?
My comment was presented as a kind of thought experiment Francis, not a statement of behaviours.
I do not believe that a most women would take the action if they knew that the ultimate solution would be abortion. There must be a reason for that.
That is what I was trying to get at, not the cynical interpretation you put on it.
So enough about you Ziggy, back to the point at hand…what do you think of the Taoiseachs lies?
Lying is such a habit with him now…he doesn’t know how to tell the truth anymore.
Why won’t he listed to the people on any issue?…..because…..
HE CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
“There are two possible interpretations of the Taoiseach’s claim. ” only one that is he just lies……. or he is just really really stupid…….
of course he mis-lead the dail,,,his lips moved
I disagree, you omit third option. He is stupid and he is a liar as well…..
Could iy be possible that our edna just hasnt got a fukking clue about what he was talking about?!?!
As much as I dislike the pri*k I don’t think he misled anyone deliberately. It looked like he couldn’t recall the questions from the referenda. It looked more like a weak answer from a weak leader. Just another example of Enda being out of his depth.
Paddy, the questions are given in advance so he has time to prepare. It is not stupidity as much as everyone would like to believe
Yes.. but do you seriously expect Enda to do his homework ?OK, maybe I’m being kind but either way the man is obviously not fit to lead the country. The only real arguments are whether he’s incompetent, dishonest or incompetently dishonest.
No but his gang of costly advisors should do. He is more a liar and typical gombeen corrupt Irish politician still thinking he is living in the 70′s or 80′s
He’s a liar and a snake plain and simple
Did the Journal mislead readers with their “hundreds” at the pro-8th rally yesterday?
They did, there was thousands at it.
No they didn’t. Nearly every news outlet put the figure in the hundreds. Even the Gardai put it in the hundreds.
The pro-Treat Women Like Vessels and Children Rally? The anti-choice lobby have been caught out on multiple occasions exaggerating and lying about numbers at their fundamentalist gatherings. Facts are not part of their modus operandi,obfuscation and lies are however.
Maybe that might have been in the double digits but it wasn’t as you’d like to make out “in the thousands”.
Obfuscation and lies. Like reclassifying stages of human development to non-human terms and telling us its a victimless crime to terminate it?
@Tariq Believing abortion is wrong is one thing and perhaps, in my most naive of minds I believe it can sometimes come from a good place. However… decrying the need for a referendum when it is clearly wanted is another and much more insidious.
@Titus,these people are incapable of independent thought and their viewpoints are immovable. That in itself is an entirely valid reason to dismiss them as charlatans and not trust their judgement on any count. I agree some come from what they ‘think’ is a moral view,but essentially they are brainwashed or currying favour with their Catholic idols in the clouds.
The inflation of numbers at their slick, expensive, groupthink, hivemind rallies is one among many lies bleated by so called “pro life” groups.
@Tariq Agreed. Plasticity and willingness to change in the face of an opposite but logically superior view point is a marker of real intellect and academic honesty. Researching for a living will do this to you…
What are you blathering on about Titus?
The comment is in plain English, Patrick, your comprehensive skills are not of concern to me. I suppose this lack of comprehension has been conducive to your general lack of understanding.
^^ Say’s lad who has been blathering on for weeks :)
And the exact same accusation of tunnel-vision can be and should be level at you and your ilk. Your totally refusal to accept or recognise the children involved in abortion. Since when was there ever an absolute right to choice.??
I agree that our young children who became pregnant and went onto have an abortion in the UK ,should of course be looked after..You are right on that one..
And that’s just it Daisy,glossy PR posters and monotone brainwashed slogans,a contemporary version of them rattling off prayers and responses in unison in one of their worship buildings.
Indeed Titus,I studied and researched modern history for many years and the discipline shines a bright light on how important it is to be discerning and never be steadfast in what you think you know,anything less is inhibiting.
I have a degree and read a couple of books, too. I wouldn’t look on academic achievement and moral judgement as being the same.
Because scientifically, and consistently in court, a foetus has not been given the recognition of a person. This is a fact.
You honestly think that being able to properly structure a sentence using jawbreaking words make you my ethical superior. Arrogance isn’t a virtue, verbosity isn’t a sign of anything but itself.
Stephen that’s precisely my point,I would have,at one point,been against abortion,at a time when I hadn’t really thought about it fully and had was influenced by other people’s views rather than my own.
A cursory amount of research into the situations where women unfortunately find themselves needing to terminate a pregnancy unequivocally made me realise that access to safe abortion was logical,morally imperative,compassionate and humane.
Patrick,I think you’ve missed the point,it sounds like you were gifted with the tools but have failed to use them accordingly.
Patrick I think you’ll find morality is often quite concurrent with logic. Considering logically, an insentient cell cluster of far more limited biological capability, and I would know, I have a PhD in biochemistry (see, I can degree drop too) I think it’s logically sound that this should not have rights above a human woman.
Under what circumstances should an abortion be denied Tariq? Your cursory glance of research and sharp mind can tell me when a life is worth protecting.
Logic and morality go out the window with abortion, in my opinion. In my considered opinion I not only think it should have the same rights as a woman but the same rights as a man. The right to life.
Patrick Those words are not complicated by any stretch. It’s how I speak it’s not something mockable you absolute fool.
That could be your child, Titus, that was aborted. Would you be happy never to have met your child because its mother aborted it without your approval or consent?
Yeah, that’s what the world needs Patrick. Less use of logic… You honestly think there’s a situation in the world where logic is useless… You are a lost cause.
Again with the insults, Titus. Tell me so, with your PhD in BioChemistry when a life starts? If any other answer than fertilisation is given that degree was a waste of taxpayers money.
Logic is a concept I understand fully. My degree is in Maths. I’m saying that logic is not a part of this debate. Logically, whatever stage of life you are at is still a stage of your life. If any part of that is prtected, shouldn’t it all be?
Patrick therein lies your problem,and the anti-choice lobby,zero acknowledgement of the grey,everything must be in black and white,it’s easier for you to rationalise your irrationality that way. Right and wrong,no middle ground. Under what possible set of circumstances would I find myself deliberating as a judge over a woman’s decision,some type of messed up Patriarch condemning an adult female? If an individual had a perfectly healthy pregnancy and decided at 8 months to terminate it with no underlying physical and / or mental health issues I’d find that difficult to accept,privately,in my own head. But such a scenario doesn’t exist anywhere in the world as most abortions occur in the first trimester.
A man is required to fertilise the egg and is equally responsible for the fate and raising of the child once it is born. Is it logical to deny the father any rights whatsoever in the 9 month period of incubation? Is he exempt from love, care, worry, or paternal instinct during that small frame of the child’s life?
Maybe you are just bound by logic without understanding, Patrick. A common issue of constraint-based thinking.
If a babies fate is solely the decision of the mother then why should a father have any rights or obligations over the child once it is born? It has nothing to do with him. Your side are apologists for dead beat dads, by giving women who don’t want motherhood the choice to have or have not.
Actually, I had a scholarship. It was funded by an international scientific trust in the UK but thank you for your concern. You should tell them in future to assess their candidates by asking your questions. When does life start? Life never stops. The cells that made the zygote where constantly alive before hand. By your logic, you’re killing a life by having a w@nk.
Logically, I am saying that abdicating responsibility for the foetus to the mother is magnitudes of neglect more than leaving after birth and not supporting it. But what would I know about logic? I’ll take the advice of a BioChemist and MSocSc and History major as my reference.
No Patrick, we’ve discussed this a thousand times. No say for the father during gestation. Opportunity to walk away at birth.
Patrick you make it sound like women are having abortions everyday, and that they are making the decision without consultation ,your not understanding the emotional side of the women involved.
That’s the same as saying washing your hands and exfoliating is killing a life, Titus. A new life begins when two cells combine and make a new unique organism with its own DNA. You won’t answer questions that make you uncomfortable? Obfuscation and lies perhaps?
And just like that, I have have no idea what you’re talking about….
There is no emotion Sparky. It is a bunch of cells. Devoid of sentience. that’s what we are being told here by the moral giants.
See Patrick, if you would have stopped arguing with a biologist about biology you wouldn’t have stupidly assumed that exfoliated cells are living; they aren’t. It doesn’t make me the least bit uncomfortable, thanks. Life beginning at conception has no basis in science. It’s a philosophical concept. Fact. This is so tedious…
If all life is simply a continuum since the primordial ooze, Titus, why have rights for anything? Murdering you shouldn’t be a crime by your logic because the life force continues unabated elsewhere. You do spout some nonsense when stuck for words. Oh, Logical One, when does a ife deserve protection?
I’m absolutely sure some exfoliated cells are living, Titus. I’m on about the ones you scrape off, not the ones that fall off.
It seems a fetus is only a baby when it wont hurt the church’s finances.
”Lawyers for Catholic hospital argue that a fetus is not a person”
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/26/us/colorado-fetus-lawsuit/
Life beginning at conception has no basis in science? Really? Ok, I’m done with you. You frauded your degree and doctorate if you truly believe that.
It comes down to quite a fundamental standing. If a woman has a choice, it is her choice and that of the prospective father if that is the case. However, it does not affect someone else’s life even if you do not personally agree with that choice it still does not impede on your life. Thus to then inflict your thoughts onto another person is the mere definition of control.
Tell the truth, you just wanted to say primordial ooze… In the purest sense murder is murder not because it’s inherently wrong, it’s considered a crime because of how we as a society interpret it at any given time. Therefore murder is arguably punishable because of abstract meaning that WE attribute it based on assumptions of personhood . Personhood is key. I’m not concerned with your trenchant responses, Patrick. Your attempts to patronise me are futile.
Patrick. You have your feelings and sentiments, which are legit. But you have to acknowledge other people have their feelings and their sentiments also. You cannot come onto a public forum and demand everyone agree with you. At least three of you have boasted about degrees/ scholarships yadayada. You are no better off in this situation just because you have a piece of paper- on fact you have disgraced yourselves. You think you are better? Well let me tell you, you are not, I bet your mothers agree. Now grow up and have or join an adult conversation/debate.
Ignorance is bliss paddy.
Are you controlling me now, Padraig, with your thoughts? Thoughts aren’t inflicted. They are shared. Laws impinge on your life but usually don’t inflict upon it, unless you want to break them.
Patrick… You like to make up your own rules, don’t you. I’ll leave you with one vital piece of information that will serve you so well. “You Patrick, are not nearly as smart as you think you are” Love, Titus
Jenni, I agree with you. My opinion is only that, an opinion. It was Tariq and Titus who stated they had a stronger moral standpoint because they have degrees.
i do respect others opinions as long as they can back them up. This issue is of real social importance and I feel no-one should have the right to spout nonsense unchallenged.
Eh Jenni, Thanks for your motherly advice but I think you’ll find Patrick played that card first and secondly, unfortunately not all opinions are created equal. Yes, we are all entitled to them but that doesn’t make them equal.
They have been backed up just you feel your feelings take precedence to this. That is not my fault.
Allowing people to make a choice Patrick, is the removal of control, not the instigating of control. Taking away choice is the slippery slope to totalitarianism.
@Tariq Agreed. Plasticity and willingness to change in the face of an opposite but logically superior view point is a marker of real intellect and academic honesty. Researching for a living will do this to you…
Some choices are not allowed be made and should not allowed be made Padraig. Selling crack cocaine to kids is a choice. Clubbing seals to death is a choice. Murder, rape, and every other criminal act is a choice. Doesn’t make any of it ok, does it?
Patrick when have you ever on these posts accepted anyone’s else’s opinion,you’re so set in your opinion I doubt you even try to understand anyone’s else’s.
Researching…Patrick researching should open up the mind. Not close it down to a stage where your opinion is correct and the only one valid. If you were a true researcher you would have an open viewpoint.
Patrick there you go again..bring the debate to your own level of thinking.
Jenni, I have stated my position innumerable times here. Being open-minded is looking at all of the evidence and making a decision based on the evidence. I have seen no evidence that would deflect me from the opinion that life begins at conception and deserves respect and protection. There are, of course, circumstances where termination may the best option, but only after due consideration for the life that you are taking.
I disagree fundamentally with the assertion that a zygote, foetus or whatever else you want to call it has no right to life and is of no consequence to abort. This is the mantra of the extreme pro-choicers. Padraig believes that 20 week old foetuses can be aborted with a clean conscience. I have heard similar claptrap from others. This is downright wrong. This is a public forum and views like those should be challenged vigourously.
Sparky..its leaving cert week, although i believe sciences are in the second week. Best leave him alone to study. He’s only winding himself up on this site. I for one dont want him to fail exams because of us.
Jenni, who’s being childish now? Do you want to debate or to join the mob?
As mentioned before Patrick, 20 weeks is the medically agreed maximum time and thus is used as the guidelines of abortion in many countries. It is not some figure plucked out of the sky and has robustly been ethically and medically agreed. Your propensity to resort to ad hominin arguments and non-sequitur similes really does get a little tiring.
Patrick you putting debate into a sentence, lol..have you ever once thought of the women who face this dilemma.
You love saying ad hominem, my liege. It means attacking a person rather than their position. It is your position I am attacking, believe me. Didn’t you call me your social inferior yesterday? And that i “spout bollocks about men”? How very dare I question the viewpoints of Padraig, MSocSc?
Patrick. You are being totally obnoxious, childish and stubborn to a point. You have your opinion. You have trapced it all over this site for the last 3 hours. I have been the only one to ask you to hush up. You are self righteous, opinionated and egotisticsl. And thats ok, doesnt bother me. But you are not allowed to shove your feelings down at somebody else and then insult them for not agreeing with you. Patrick, that does not become a man of such alleged intelligence.
Of course he never has, isn’t he a catholic? mega woman hating cult?
Catholic church logic 101,
“If god wanted female priests, he/she/it will let it be known…in time..”
“All your children are born sinner”s” etc
More than you would Sparky. Your dilemma ends once you say “Your body Your choice” and abdicate any responsibility for the remainder of your childs life and probably just avoid eye contact with her if you see her in a pub after. She will carry the sole burden for half of your mistake. I would rather it was shared and that she was ok.
Religion is irrelevant.
Your point would be better made, Jenni, if it wasn’t so focused on me. I find Padraig obnoxious. I find Titus particularly obnoxious and yet I have to put up with them insulting me and my position, to which you agree I am entitled. You can call me what you want, it won’t change me one iota. Is it that I might upset people with the truth or that you can’t out-shout me? I am truly sorry if I have hurt anyone with my opinions. They are simply that.
Patrick please read up on the issue..your comment again is so derogatory to the whole debate..
I also see men and women on here who know the exact moment a foetus deserves protection and all will give a different date. 12 weeks, 14 weeks 20 weeks, 24 weeks. You see, the reality is, it is subjective and personal, not really scientific. In that frame, my position is absolute. The others are open to interpretation and what is tasteful or distasteful. And yet I am the obnoxious arrogant one that doesn’t know what I’m on about.
Wow..your last response to sparky..a damnation of you. If you are so thinking..why would you assume/ presume sparky would act in such a way? Sparky never said he would neglect or undertermine a child. Forc ou to suppose is atrocious. COP ON MAN.
It’s central to my point, Sparky. You can choose to argue it or ignore it.
They are not simply just that are they? Your opinion is religious and the law of the land, and it’s about time it had been changed to create a more respectable world. Keep your faith between your friends family and cult comrades, Am I leaving anyone out?. Gross church tried to tell gay people what to do in life, defiled children in every cover of this earth under the clock of spiritual “fathering”. Then its lay sheep try and tell rape victims to raise unwanted children? or even better put the child up for adoption, your lot have all the answers don’t they? Your just vile Patrick.
Sparky says it’s her body, her choice and nothing to do with him.
Go elsewhere, Teene. i am a committed athiest. Less of your nonsense please.
My body, My choice!
Seems like your a committed noisy nose, Have some shame man.
Patrick by that you mean abortion centres about one night stands..good lad ..
We are all going to bed now Patrick. Comfortable in the knowledge that 1. You are male and you think that because you have a degree in something your opinion supercedes all womens opinions. 2. Your mates have similar degrees- but not same opinions,3, all of us should, absolutley should, agree with you, coz you are absolutely right about everything. One word..bellend.
98% of abortions are for reasons other than rape, incest, ffa, or risk to the life of the mother. I assume married people and co-habitating couples that don’t want children do the responsible thing and get a vasectomy or practice safe sex. The reasons I am being told about include one-night stands, short term relationships and other inconveniences that lead to it “not being the right time or circumstances”.
How many committed couples do you know that have had abortions and stayed together long-term?
You can go to bed safe in the knowledge that I said that educational achievement has nothing to do with morality or ethics. I don’t agree with you and don’t expect you to convince me or me to convince you. I just think you are wrong. As I said, Jenni, you can call me what you want. I’m big enough to take it.
What’s your degree in Patrick? I’d love to know, now that you’ve mentioned it.
Studied maths = logical. Oy gevalt! I’m remembering my own maths teacher. Ranting catholic homophobe full of sky fairy rhetoric and nothing else. Logical me cheoil!!!
“Because scientifically, and consistently in court, a foetus has not been given the recognition of a person. This is a fact.”
The law is not always right Titus. US law regarded black people, to justify slavery, as only 3/5 of a person.
1) The majority of abortions (60%) are carried out on us wimmin that are already mothers – you’ve already been told this NUMEROUS times ..
2) In all of the pregnancies in the US over 50% of them were UNPLANNED
3) 27% of them “immature” pesky wimmin were in the 25-29 age group
4) 46% of all abortion patients had never married and were ‘not’ living together
5) 51% had been using birth control in the month that they fell pregnant
6) Over half a million people live in one-parent families in Ireland and 86.5% per cent of one-parent families are headed by the mother..
And as I have stated here before -the risk of mental health problems is NO greater if they have a single first-trimester abortion than if they carry the pregnancy to term.
You want full control over a woman and that is as plain as day for the majority on here to see ..
Take up the whale watching as the womb watching hobby is a pretty pathetic one..
Speaking of slaves : Women slaves used herbs to abort their pregnancies..
It’s not a “fact”. Recently in Ireland a death certificate was rightly issued for an unborn child that died in a road traffic accident. What’s is that other than a clear recognition in law of the status of an unborn child..
“The coroner said: “The problem is one of interpretation. In essence, to die you have to prove you are born.”
That’s a matter of law Francis. Morality is different and may have a different view. The law could decide at some point that a death certificate be issued for an aborted child if it wished.
As Jean-Louis de Lolme put it in regarding the supremacy of parliament “Parliament can do everything but make a woman a man and a man a woman.” and it seems it can even do that now.
Ah yes, theJournals favourite topic……..
What…Enda??
Green monkey… Halawa is thejournals favoured topic
It’s just click bait at this stage.
Exposing lies and liars?
Abortion, LBTG politics, Trump Bashing, Gender Quotas, Star Wars locations.
Another Groundhog Day on the Journal.ie.
So cal what would you suggest they post on here…
Not trying to set the agenda at all.
Just remarking on the general gist of things.
(all social media friendly BTW – ‘Trendy’ subjects)
No Daisy.. Putting up variations on the same themes nearly everyday. I, like you am pro choice so I’m not trying to stop a referendum or anything but you have to admit it’s the same people arguing the same points over and over again expecting different results. It’s Einsteins definition of insanity in practice. It always works out about 65%/35% in favor of repealing the 8th. This particular variation is rehashing under the guise of “did Enda lie” but you and I both know how it’s going to end up.
So if it has been proven that the dail was mislead will the record get corrected like we did about the guy who writes the soft porn novels?
If Enda was mistaken he should correct the record. If he does not that would make it a deliberate deceit and he should resign. The ball however is firmly in his court.
And we’re still none the wiser . . . .
Absolutely Catherine. This subject has become such a mire that people dont know what thet should be voting for, so much legal jargon, its mindbending. I’ll be glad if the referndum commission get their hands on it, they are obliged to make it simple and readable.
Dan, great piece, very well explained and in a balanced way.
Thanks a lot, David!
Enda also staying quiet on the following – If you saw the TV3 documentary ‘Firetrap Homes’ you should view the following documentary, which you will see for yourself the fraudulent certification and criminality that has gone on and continues to do so within the Irish construction industry, aided and abetted by state authorities. Here is the link to the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LHGwwlC8rs
FactCheck
The journal can’t go two days without an abortion or catholic bashing thread.
I feel a big yawn coming on.
By the way. The end justifies the means. Abortion is the killing of the unborn. It should never be put to a vote.
To be fair Tom the Catholics are a soft target – the zombie-worshipping pretend cannibals.
Fact Check: Religious fundamentalists should stop poking their noses into women’s health and wellbeing as the cannot be trusted when their viewpoint is reached courtesy of Papist agents of Rome.
Fact check: Enda lied.
FACT.
@Tom. FactCheck. This fact check has nothing to do with abortion. It’s to do with enda’s blatant lies.
Declan. Is that your real head?
Fact check: mohammed has no right to ibterfere either.
Interfere
But Tom, it was put to a vote in 1983. Should it never have been put to a vote in the first place?
Is that yours Tom?
Tom is some yolk! A complete egghead.
Thank you
As i have stated here before many times. If bell Enda told me it was raining I’d go outside to double check. The man is a fool.
Would this really be an issue where it males giving birth? No it wouldn’t be. Disgusting carry on by the so called leaders of this country pandering to “god’s children”, Thank other god for women on web.
The world health organisation estimate there are 40-50 million abortions in the world every year.
That is disturbing.
Have you taken time out from you own little world to break down those figures.
If you have a question, ask it please.
I have no idea what you are getting at.
Tom if you can’t understand the question I just asked you I suggest you get back to your coloring book.
What are you asking about breaking down figures? I ask again. What is your question?
And the correct spelling is colouring.
Thanks for your spelling check..HAVE YOU BROKEN DOWN THE FIGURES AS TO WHY THOSE WOMEN HAD ABORTIONS. or do you think they were all just because they felt like it..
Tom, I found sparky’s question interesting. What’s the breakdown?
sparky, it doesn’t matter why, only that they’re slappers who murdered their babies.
Stop shouting Sparky.
Less smart comment and more direct questioning please.
I will answer when you ask me what you want to know about the numbers.
I will try to guess what you’re asking.
Probably about 96% were healthy babies terminated to suit a lifestyle.
I’m not saying those women did it easily (many did) but they ultimately put their lifestyle first.
Daisy is partially right. Some are slappers and babies were murdered
Can you define a slapper for me please Tom? Is that a woman who enjoys sex? Has had more than one partner? Do you call men slappers also? Is it people who have sex outside of marriage? Should a woman become pregnant on a one night stand and she go through with the pregnancy is she still a slapper? Or is it only those women that have abortions. I do know you will say that you were looking for a reaction etc. But you have used that excuse way too many times for any of us to believe that you have anything more than little to no respect for women.
Maybe they’re all virgin conceptions, after all, it did happen in the bible so it’s most definitely something that can happen. Women find themselves pregnant after a foursome with the father, son and holy spirit and decide they’re not actually interested in being a vessel for the (Grand)Son of god.
Well maybe if the Hard Right would accept liberalisation of the law on the morning after pill, there would be far fewer abortions.
I think all people who are anti choice should be required to pay an extra tax to help fund the cost of raising unwanted children. I wonder how strong their conviction would be if it actually affected them in some way.
Kenny does what he is told through his ear piece.The man is nothing but a coward and the last thing he gives a sh+t about is the tax payer.He does what he is told and gets a pat on the head every now and then and we need to be ashamed that this man is our,and it kills me to say it,our”leader”
Is Enda Kenny the most hated Taoiseach ever?
It’s remarkable that he probably is disliked more than Brian Cowen, Bertie Ahern or even John Bruton. What a legacy.
Enda lied once more to the Dail. How many more lies and untruths is he going to be allowed to make before he is stopped. He lies outside the Dail. He has lies to the EU on more than one occasion. He plays the buffoon card as a cover up for lying. He is not a stupid man. He’s a clever manipulator who feigns stupidity, to get away with lies.
As for the abortion “debate” in the thread, one thing that can be seen is that the anti choice brigade here are all male. They discount women’s comments and opinion as being irrelevant.
One thing is for absolute certain, no man will ever have to make that ultimate decision, no man. I don’t agree with abortion being used as a method of contraception, and i don’t think anyone is advocating such a thing. The fact remains that abortion is in many cases the best option for women where their health and mental wellbeing is going to suffer by being forced by law to continue a pregnancy. Not men’s health or mental well being, women’s.
I would not be against leaving the whole issue for women only to decide it. They’re the ones who have to make such a decision and have to live with it.
Well done journal
Great article, and great to see a decent amount of logic in the comments in the midst of the Yank Defence brigade. Very heartening to see support for repealing the 8th and for highlighting Enda’s lies.
Where’s Roisie?
Every post ends with ‘poor pet’
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
I think you might have a gas leak, Tom.
Yes either that or he’s reading the bible again. .
Ha ha ha ha ha ha he
Tom has got hold of Maria’s & Marion’s wacky backy :)
Poor pets!
Poor pet
Told ye
You did :)
Tom, your comments indicate instability.
Yeh Fiona, the guy believes children are being murdered because his special book says so ( it doesn’t) the creations myth in the “holy book” is a disgusting fable. It doesnt even mention viruses or bacteries, yeah thanks god, you love me so much (not).
Why is abortion such a big deal at the end of the day its about ending a life weather you see it as a few cells or embryo it’s still a life in the making and should be embraced and not destroyed before it is given a chance
A referendum won’t change this Patrick. Many Irish women have abortions every day, this won’t change. What might change is vulnerable women (rape, ffa, etc) might be protected by their state and in cases of ffa, be allowed to bury their child.
Aoife
The worst reason to bring in abortion is because it’s available across the water.
We should do the right thing regardless of what everybody else does.
The last election was a referendum on the 8th amendment and the pro choice abortion junkies are just going to have to accept the result, the Irish people whole heartedly rejected the killing of unborn babies in this country by obliterating the Labour Party who were the most vocal on repealing the 8th. That’s democracy guys and even Enda knows the lie of the land. Game over.
Thats’s some amazing mental gymnastics there, All I see down the road is more damaged negated children that are raise unwanted,buts that’s good for the priests, it’s easier to fool the impoverished, not saying this will happen to every single one but you would have to be blind not to see. The problem has been getting better what with funding from civil rights groups to fund safe abortions for women in some countries, people like you are worry me, I wonder if you’ve every been to england and paid taxes there helping in their baby murdering, Hypocrite. I bet you have some bible quote’s and all for us. Bless.
If you’re going to argue that point, Stephen have you seen the woeful showing of candidates who stood on a pro life platform like Kate Bopp, Paddy Manning, John Walsh etc?
Who funds Kate Bopp for her anti divorce, anti SSM, anti abortion and anti freedom position?
Maybe she gets the money from her husband’s disaster wifi zone business.
Liar.. That’s Ends..
Lies or incompetence? The question has to be asked of too many of this country’s leaders too many times.
I hate to say it, because it makes my skin crawl, but although Enda is his usual incoherent rambling self (why people vote for him I’ll never know) he is not entirely wrong to put this to a citizens forum before sending it to referendum. In a referendum they can only ask a yes/no question. Which could be keep the 8th or repeal the 8th. However there are more than two sides in this argument. Some want to keep it, some want rid of it but many want it amended to allow abortion for certain situations and not others. This last group has also got a lot of variation in their opinions. It would be great if the referendum could be multi choice but it can’t. So the government need advice from the peiple on what the exact question to ask should be.
He is always doing that in my view?
In fairness to him, he’s doing his best!
He’s not a 7 year old who can’t get the hang of multiplication.
They did not endorse the 8th more than once. In 1992 they only had freedom of travel and information and removing suicide risk as grounds for abortion. All three went in the liberal direction resultswise. In 2002 the question was on tightening up the law by removing suicide as grounds for abortion. That was rejected.
“The dynamic of the 12th Amendment campaign (several high-profile bishops and pro-life groups called for a No vote), probably meant that the voters’ rejection of it was a move towards an absolute guarantee.”
There’s not necessarily anything to support that interpretation of the outcome, as opposed to that same No vote being about rejecting the removal of suicide as a valid exception to the abortion ban. Not really sure what that “probably” is based on.
have your say