What do we expect as a country?we are rule by one of the richest organisation in the world(churches)
We chose to believe them even though we are meant to believe they dont rule the country
And just 1 question,every citizen was affected by this corrupt reccession one way or the other so how come the government never ask the richest organisation to chip in and the big question is, it never affected them because im yet to see a church closing down.
But yet hosiptals have close down,beds been cut,docs,nurses force to work,
High tax for everyone,and paying everything thats thrown at us.

I know I probably won’t get a response but could I ask the couple of red thumbs to my comment regarding sex education, why they gave the red thumb. Are there really still people who think that we should not be educating our children/adolescents and young adults in a better way regarding sec and contraception and avoiding STD’s as well as unwanted pregnancies.

England has the loosest laws and 1 in 5 get aborted… go figure

Ah the old 1 in 5 figure, I was wondering when it would show up.

Can you tell me why it would be better to bring even more unwanted children into the world?

Hi, Jingles – could you explain in detail how England’s laws are looser than the Netherlands? Thanks!

because the sex education is poor

Yes, it’s called Chastity

Agreed. Sex education needs to be rethought.. It’s all well and good teaching the mechanics of it, but the relationships aspect is ignored – and surely this should be a focus?

And there we have it! “Killing babies”, now that didn’t take long did it? Do you want me to explain the definition of a baby again for you Egg? Embryonic cells are not “babies”!

It shows how this country can never move forward,even third world countries are upto dated with reality when it comes to abortion.
And whiles they keep supporting the churches,can you please tell em to pay up for the women they abuse or your afraid to ask them because they way things are going it seems innocent tax payers will cough up again

Diarmuid,

Go look up a 12 week old baby and tell me it’s an embryonic cell then. I don’t realise cells had hands and fingers and toes. Not to mention a face, nose, ears and mouth.

But then again Karol, foetuses dont develop features until after 12 weeks so in fact you’re right!

Ah, Dermot- we’ve had this out before and you have yet to effectively refute my point that all you pro-abortionists have in your locker is semantics. Cells, Foetuses, Zygotes….that’s all well in good but the indisputable FACT is that an abortion results in one less baby in the world. You may want to indulge in a rebranding exercise to assuage your conscience but its a superficial exercise. Hide behind terminology all you want but it’s a bit cowardly, don’t you think? If you’re in favour of terminating babies come out and say it.

You are 100% wrong.

Correct – pro-lifers ARE vile

Diarmuid, don’t bother trying to debate with Egg Mc. He won’t change his opinion & you won’t change yours. The fact that he doesn’t use your name correctly and uses terms that should simply not be allowed are just to try & provoke you. Don’t bother.

Gis,

YOU’RE vile.

Hey, hopefully he would be, if the mother decided it was the best option for her. But if she told him the pregnancy was unmanageable after the trauma of rape, that she had been trying to miscarry herself at home, I really hope he wouldn’t have her arrested. But who knows?

Leave the pro lifers to it, they’re black and white, narrow minded view on the world would have us all in a strange strange place, thank f u c k they’re the minority.

It’s pro-CHOICE.

Adam,

You’re a moron. I am neither a woman, nor am I opposed to abortion in cases of rape. What I am opposed to is idiots like you talking through your hole about things you obviously don’t have the fist clue about.

Karol, when you’re finished calling people names there like a petulant child answer me this, has a partner, sister, friend or daughter of yours ever taken the morning after pill? Cause you know with life beginning at conception by YOUR logic you support murder!

Secondly answer me this – In one hand you hold the life of a loved one, a woman, in the other you hold a petri dish with a 10 week old embryo in it. You have to drop one? Are you honestly telling me you could not drop the petri dish to save the loved woman in your life? If you answer yes, I truly pity the women in your life!

Firstly, sssshhhh no tears.
Now what exactly don’t I understand here?

How many ways do you simpletons want me to say this. I am all in favour of abortion when the woman life is at risk and in cases of rape/incest.
What I’m not in favour of is having, like most countries, legislation that allows any girl for any reason, permission to stroll into an abortion clinic and terminate the life of a child she couldn’t be arsed raising.

Now if you or your boyfriend here support that sort of behaviour then I pity you both.

Hot- “terms that shouldn’t be allowed”? I’m just wondering who gets to decide on the appropriate terminology. You, is it? Bit fascist, there for such a “liberal”. Obviously the truth hurts!

KAROL just seen a girl walk into a garage to buy a snickers bar and she decided to have an abortion …. said no woman ever

You are entitled to your opinion Karol as everyone is, as a woman and mother I am fully in favour of abortion on demand up to 20 weeks as it isn’t as simple as saying women who want these “can’t be arsed raising a child” there are so many reasons for an abortion that are not medical or in severe cases but they are valid reasons for each woman involved.

Dublin,

Probably the stupidest comment I have ever read in my life. Well done.

Karol, you have to actually answer my question about the morning after pill before you get to call me a simpleton, tone down the name calling too will ya!

People are fed so many lies on abortion…Abortion is anti-woman, anti-child, anti-father and anti-society. it is very scary when you hear comments like that….

Hi, Karol, I’m curious as to your views on IVF….

Vermolen,

I’m sorry I don’t agree with you. Aborting a 20 week old child is an abomination. If the woman doesn’t want it then there are other options besides killing the child. ie adoption.

Diarmaid,

I was asked that in a previous thread and the simple answer is I do not know where I stand on it. It’s a very tricky one.

Hot- credit to you for at least being honest in your view and not hiding behind rape or incest as so many pro-abortion advocates do. But I’m sorry- just because a woman decides to do it, doesn’t make it valid. It’s not valid when it is being used as a contraception of last resort, or because its inconvenient at that moment in time, or because babies are pricey little buggers. And on that, the vast majority of Irish people are in agreement. Of that we can be very proud- here conscience still trumps expedience.

Obviously it isn’t me as I wouldn’t allow a lot of things both sides of the debate say. I do not resort to name calling, I think it is ridiculous to use phrases like “pro-aborts” “child murderers” “support child abuse” etc. I think respect for others should be maintained but that is my opinion, personal feelings between specific posters seem to have taken over in a lot of these threads. It is a pity.

Hi Nick,

If a couple are having a hard time conceiving naturally then I am all for IVF. A friend of mine benefitted from it after years of heartache, they now have a little boy.

What about all the unused embryos that die or are cryogenically stored forever in IVF treatment? No problem with that then?

So you do not believe that personhood begins at conception, then (since IVF destroys a massive number of embryos.) When do you believe it begins?

You are right, abortion is not anti any of these things so it is wrong to hear them

It is not a 20 week old child, it it was we would celebrate the 1st birthday approx 3 months after birth. But I am entitled to my opinion as you are yours

As I said before I’m simply not sure. What I am sure of is that life has more than begun at 12 weeks.

I said there were many valid reasons other than the worst reasons. Financial, fear, youth etc. I have stated again and again that I believe education is key, this is why abortion is so low in the Netherlands. Education is vital in preventing more than just unwanted pregnancy but also to protect against STD’s.

In your opinion, of course. I’m a bit curious – since you would not be willing to have the views of those who believe it begins at conception enforced through law, why should your view of 12 weeks be enforced? Please explain the distinction to me…

If I had to be specific, I would say that life begins as soon as the child’s heart begins to beat, which is usually 3 weeks after conception.

More like 6 weeks actually.

But that’s your opinion. Several posters on here believe life begins at conception and so IVF is serial killing. Other people believe neurology is the key factor. Why should we legislate for your opinion and not anyone else’s?

“Since you would not be willing to have views of those who believe it begins at conception enforced through law”

When did I say anything of the sort?

It’s easy to have a view on an issue that won’t effect you but when you put yourself into the shoes of somebody that it does effect then you must consider what changes would that have on your views.

I was always against stem cell research but then I asked myself if I or a loved one were in a horrible accident that left us paralyzed or without a limb or with scars from burning & were a researcher to come up to us and say “hey we’ve been experimenting on this project involving stem cells and we’d like to try it out on you, there’s a chance it might reverse your handicap” I know full well given that situation I’d ask where do I sign. I think every parent would.

The same applies to abortion, put your mother, sister or daughter in that scenario & then revisit your views.

Because you would not outlaw IVF, Karol. If you were willing to have those who believed that life begins at conception enforced through law, you would believe IVF should be made illegal.

So you would be fine with IVF being outlawed, Karol?

Again,

I did not say that life begins at conception.

But lots of other people do. Why are you more correct than they are? It’s all arbitrary in the end anyway.

Which is why I said – that’s your opinion. Several posters on here believe life begins at conception and so IVF is serial killing. Other people believe neurology is the key factor. Why should we legislate for your opinion and not anyone else’s?

People who believe life begins at conception would view your views on IVF to be just as murderous as those who believe abortion should be legal up until 12 weeks. You have stuck your own arbitrary pin in the map – why should that be respected above anyone else’s view?

I’m not saying it should!! Why should yours? I’m simply giving my opinion.

I don’t believe I’ve stated an opinion here on when life begins.

So you believe abortion should be legal for the first trimester, then? You having an opinion is fine, but I’m pointing out that your opinion is not acceptable to groups like Youth Defence, who would consider you as much of a baby killer as I am.

If your attitude is genuinely “everyone has an opinion and how can we know?” – that seems awful pro choice.

Comparing IVF to abortion is a fallacy. In an abortion, its the action that causes the death. In Ivf, its lack of action that causes it.

No, actually, in IVF, the “leftover” embryos are actually defrosted and destroyed. I’d suggested educating yourself on the process of IVF.

In fact, it could be argued that IVF is even worse than abortion – embryos are specifically created with the foreknowledge that half of them will die.

If you believe life begins at conception, then this is mass murder. But it’s interesting to me that so few “pro life” groups focus on IVF. Could this perhaps be because they view women who have sex as sinners?

Those frozen embryos are going to die regardless. Its euthanasia at best.

And if you want to set up a protest against ivf, I wish you well so.

So if women take a drug or do an action which has a side effect of miscarriage and simply do nothing to stop it, you believe that should be legal, Rísteard? You see it as the intention, not the action of killing the foetus?

And yes. Pro life people hate women. We masterbate profusely when women are oppressed. Oh patriachry… its so hot! Well done.

The frozen embryos were created with the knowlege that they will die. As I pointed out, those who claim life begins at conception are hypocrites if they do not oppose IVF. What’s the death of one foetus at 6 weeks versus five embryos pre-implantation? If a life is a life, it’s all murder….

Similarly, since “they are “going to die regardless”, I assume you are a massive proponent of allowing abortion in cases of inevitable miscarriage and TFMR?

If you believe that they’re all life and the woman who ends one life deserves to be imprisoned, while the woman who ends five lives as part of IVF does not, then yes, the logical conclusion is that you hate sexually active women.

The embryos arent fertilised in utero. So, its a case of inaction vs action.

And intent is a big case in the legal system. See murder vs man slaughter vs self defense.

So now your argument is that life doesn’t begin at conception, it begins at implantation? As I said to Karol, that’s your opinion. Most pro life groups believe that regardless of method of conception, once fertilised, that is a human being with it’s own DNA. But you’re welcome to agree with pro choice people who believe that’s an arbitrary distinction, rather than scientific?

And while for some things, intent is relevant in the Irish system, for strict liability crimes, it’s not. Abortion, for example, is considered the deliberate attempt to miscarry, regardless of intention and so is a strict liability crime (it’s fine, not a lot of lay people understand the distinction.)

My point was the action removes the embryo causing it it die in abortion.

In IVF, the lack of action is what kills rhe embryo. The sperm is extracted and egg are extracted. The conception isnt in utero. There is no action to change, thus no change in environment that will cause the inevitable death of the embryo.

Itd be like if someone was being beaten to death outside your house. You may not stop it, for whatever reasons you choose. This doesnt mean you murdered them. Naturally thats a loose analogy.

In IVF, there is an intention to create multiple embryos with the full knowlege that 90% will be destroyed. In fact, most people would argue that’s less guilt than an abortion, where there was no intention to create the foetus which will then be destroyed.

So if you believe that a foetus is created at fertilisation, if it’s all about the embryos, not punishing women, then surely you believe deliberately creation with the intention to destroy of multiple babies, rather than just one, is a harsher sentence.

Or maybe you’re a hypocrite…

Ok……. ??

Dublin,

It’s “people”. A tough word to spell I know but I just thought I’d help you out.

Nick, ive already highlighted the moral differnce in the creation and destruction of life in both situations. If your moral compass is so compremised that you cant see, or refuse to see it, thats on you.

Or you can resort to calling me a mysognist or hipocrite. Whatever makes you sleep better.

No – you’ve come up with half baked analogies which ignore the legal situation.

If you’re going to go with the silly metaphors and “omission” argument, an abortion is the situation when without your knowledge, someone comes to your door, dying, and you refuse them your blood, nutrients and womb.

IVF is a situation when you pay multiple people to show up at the door, knowing full well that only one will be allowed inside and the rest will die. And the first one is the least ethical?

And some of your comments on the comments on the Journal imply that you are quite sexist, actually. But go on denying that no one wants to control women’s bodies after the recent disgusting news out of Saudi Arabia.

Actuslly, the abortion analogy on your terms is kicking your own child out to die.

And you pay no one to come to your house.

The instances of the occursnces in other countries are not my issue.

Again, fob me off as a sexist if you wish. Not my problem you’re too much of a zealot to see other views.

Oh, my bad – IVF embryos aren’t your own child! They’re randomers.

And I assure you, people pay considerable amount for IVF..

So you’re agreeing embryos sre children now?

I’m saying that if you believe life begins at conception, than IVF results in far more death than abortion. And if you’re peddling the idea that “it’s not about punishing women, it’s about the babies!”. the death of lots of babies should bother you. If it doesn’t, you should take a look at your motivation, because it’s clearly not actually about the embryos.

Again, I made it quite clear why I see them differently. The analogy was for your benefit to explain my.point, not mine. I said it was loose. But the action vs inaction point is justified as to why abortion is murder and ivf isnt. Again, the analogy was for your benefit.

Now, if you dont mind, ive to go get my oppression on!

No problem – I will admit, it’s funny to watch people twist themselves up in knots to the point that they’re claiming that IVF is just letting things happen naturally, non-interference.

I guess if you start with the conclusion that women who have abortions are sinners then it’s harder to come up with logical steps to present the argument – including back up from your metaphor.

I made it very clear why they’re different morally. You wanna equate them, thats on you.

Sinners… not religious.

I do want to equate the distinction between your views on “babies” who die from IVF (tough luck, it’s a natural death) and those who die from abortion (“tragic death.”) I’m guessing your views on miscarriage are “ah, well, it happens.”

I could care less if you’re religious. What is obvious is for you that it’s less about the actual destruction of embryos than controlling women’s bodies. Unless your act v omission view would hold if a woman just ignored her two year old and let them starve? Doubtful.

Unfortunally… miscarriages do happen.

If you’re gonna make that point, you might aswell promote post birth abortions too. Well done. Showing our true colours and they are nasty.

No Karol….YOU are

Great repost Giz.

It only took you 8 hours to come up with that response. You should be very proud.

kunt

Dublinjonny, that is a rude & horrible to comment to make, it doesn’t help the debate on either said

“If you’re gonna make that point, you might aswell promote post birth abortions too.” That was – well, totally disjointed. For you, it’s the method that bothers you? Then I suppose you’re fine with medical abortions – probably far less gruesome than destroying IVF embryos.

I made it clear it was the moral choice. An action to kill and an inaction that results in death are two different things. Hypothetically, If you push me in front of a bus, thats you killed me… and the bus. If you’re standing beside me and I happen to be in the way of a bus and you dont do nothing, thats not murder… although wouldnt say much for you.

Hardly disjointed. You brought it up. And it fits nicely into pro choice. Sure why should a woman have to take care of a child of two years old. Its her body shes using to work and raise money to feed the child. And the stress of raising the child might be too much for her then. The father too. Why shouldnt they have the choice to keep their resources for themselves. Its their choice after all. Post birth abort the child and let them have the choice to live their lives as they decide… or do you not trust people not to abort kids at two if it were legal?

Excuse me for butting in on this discussion, Nick and Risteard.
They’re still embryos. Why is it wrong to abort an embryo in utero and not wrong to destroy a embryo in vitro?
And no Risteard, it’s not euthanasia. Euthanasia is helping either a person or animal (born and living) to die when they are either terminally ill or their quality of life is extremely compromised.

Read back through it. The actions after conception vs inactions vs conception separate them.

In vitro embryos will die of exposure slowly. So its like euthansia. If my two options were exposure or quick death, I know which way id go.

Nick, embryos that are destroyed through the process of IVF are not important to most on the anti-choice side as it doesn’t give them the opportunity to have control over women’s lives and bodies. That and the fact that they feel that pregnancy and birth is the appropriate punishment for women who have sex, even rape survivors, no matter what the consequences for her.

I certainly do not wish to come across as insensitive to cases of rape which result in unwanted pregnancy, however, what is often omitted from this debate is that such consequences are, in almost all incidences, avoidable due to the availability of the morning after pill. It doesn’t take twelve weeks to deal with unwanted consequences; I’m fairly certain that sexual violence clinics routinely administer this treatment.

A woman or a girl might not necessarily be in the mental state to be together enough to get emergency contraception or even get to a sexual violence clinic within the time if she has just been raped. Many women ‘shut down’ to deal with the trauma, or go into denial, young girls might not have the first clue how to get emergency contraception (better sex education might help here) also emergency contraception sometimes fails too.

Yep. Your right. Backwards.

Maybe not necessarily backward thinking, as loads of polls show that the population in overwhelming majority is in favour of more liberal legislation. Maybe backward law-making almost as usual not reflecting the interest of the population at large? And naturally the state will keep you poor and the church dumb so that you’re easy to suppress…

Egg makes me so embarrassed to be Irish, I feel like I’m living on craggy island, can’t wait to get out and not look back.

Oh Egg here you go again, wading in without your facts. If you read the abortion statistics for Uk, you will realise that they include ALL abortions carried out in the state, including those where the woman ‘has travelled from overseas to obtain an abortion’.
So you needn’t sweep your problems under someone else’s rug, finger point and feel smug while you’re doing it.

Not to mention that he ignores the figures in the Netherlands and Scandanavia (where abortion is also legal)

Exactly, Nick, how nice it must be to retain the moral high ground in such a manner.

1 in 6 in Holland

Aisling- I’m less than enammered to be sharing in Ireland with someone as devoid of conscience as you. How dare you look down on me while espousing killing babies…

They noted a marked increase in Holland from immigrant women with a limited social safety net – proving that once against, reducing abortions is about providing financial and social support for women in poverty.

I’m a bit baffled, Jingles, why you wouldn’t prefer to reduce abortions rather than export them?

Yes nick they all come from Ireland.

Now, now, Jingles – you’re confusing them again. That’s the UK. Irish women have a high abortion rate when you consider all the illegal abortions in Ireland and legal ones in the UK. So why would you prefer to focus on legislation, which exports abortions, rather than social support, which reduces them?

Now now nick I have a strong suspicion that you can’t have kids of your own that’s why you’re so “forward thinking”. I’m all for education on the subject but even they guy that brought abortion on demand to England was disgusted with how it turned out

You mean the gentleman who brought abortion in 1967? Do you mean to tell me that an elderly member of the British establishment born before the second World War is not the arbiter of British public opinion? I’ll try to contain my shock that public opinion may have slightly changed in 50 years. Next you’ll tell me that Eamon de Valera may be shocked if he knew condoms were now available in Ireland – better get rid of them asap.

“Now now nick I have a strong suspicion that you can’t have kids of your own that’s why you’re so “forward thinking”.” – Despite being an offensive ad hominem by someone who has never met me, is your argument that those racked by infertility are more likely to be opposed to abortion access?

What’s the point of people engaging with YD fake accounts. Ie egg what ever and mr what’s his face. If they don’t have the courage to put their face and name on their comments, everything they say is irrelevant.

Nick, by the way some of you go on I wouldn’t be surprised.
Kev, yes everyone that opposes abortion on demand is religious or from the youth defence. Weirdo. There’s not much point in arguing with you either because at the end of the day we won. ;-)

Another remark that is just spiteful & could easily upset many women who are not fertile. Being able to have or not have children does not necessarily sway your opinion on this matter. I have a 10 year old daughter and yet, shock horror, I am pro-choice!

I find that particularly hurtful because I did suffer from a miscarriage, thanks. So regardless of my pro choice mother (as well as Hanneke’s views), you see the world as being divided into parents vs pro choice people? How ridiculous and obviously factually inaccurate.

Adding to the anecdotes, my parents are both strongly pro-choice.

What did you win. What mentality have you got to have to come out with a stupid statement like that. A serious lack of life experience between your ears I’d safely say.

Reduce it to winning & losing and sweeping disgraceful comments like it is women who struggle with fertility that are pro choice! My parents are pro choice, they have 2 children, my partner and I are pro choice, we have a daughter. Many of my friends are parents and pro choice, that argument is not just ridiculously unfounded but also hurtful to women/men who are unable to have children on both sides of the debate

Ah mr jingles playing the good Christian again I see. Always cracks me up.

Ignore the idiot. They continue to make ridiculous sweeping statements. The last comment that was made regarding infertility was something along the lines of “Think of the people who can’t have kids, they long for the babies you all want murdered” Yet the majority of them also oppose IVF. They’re ill informed at best. Having suffered through years of infertility ourselves we have crossed the paths of, and become friends with, numerous couples with differing opinions on the subject. These morons do not speak for us.