Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
Updated: 10.17pm
ALMOST TWO YEARS after becoming law, water charges remain firmly on the political agenda in Ireland, with Dáil motions to remove the charges, and the government’s nine-month suspension and expert commission expected later this year.
On Monday, the European Commission confirmed its view that Ireland’s exemption from water charges has lapsed.
In that context, Green Party leader Eamon Ryan and Brendan Ogle from the Unite union and Right2Change movement debated the future of the charges on yesterday’s Today with Seán O’Rourke on RTE Radio 1.
Ogle attacked the current regime as unfair, claiming that while the vast majority of water is used by “big business and agriculture”, households pay more than three quarters of the cost.
Is this true, though?
(Remember, if you hear numbers that you want verified, email factcheck@thejournal.ie).
Claim: Big business and agriculture use 90% of water in Ireland, but households pay 78% of the costs.
Verdict: Mostly FALSE.
What was said:
You can listen to the debate in full here. (The relevant section begins at 11.54). This is the statement in question, by Brendan Ogle:
If we’re talking about polluter pays, the situation is that 90% of water in this country is used by big business and agriculture. But the model pushed through by Alan Kelly and the last government [saw] 78% of it [the cost] passed on to households.
This is a complicated one, but let’s keep it as simple as possible. There are two parts to this: usage and cost.
Usage
Brendan Ogle told us the source of the first part of the claim was this document from the Global City Indicators Facility, a program of the Global Cities Institute at the University of Toronto.
It states:
Domestic water use is a small portion of total water consumption (10 percent in the European Union), trailing agricultural and industrial uses.
However, no date or source is given for that statistic, and it refers to the EU, and not Ireland.
In response to further queries, Ogle cited statistics from the UN, UNESCO, and the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organisation, which state:
Worldwide, agriculture accounts for 70% of all water consumption, compared to 20% for industry and 10% for domestic use.
The figure of 10% is a global one, and does not specifically relate to Ireland. Water usage varies hugely from country to country, and even from region to region, so we absolutely cannot infer Ireland’s usage pattern from the global total.
Furthermore, Ogle used the phrase “big business and agriculture”, when in fact he was simply referring to business (of all kinds) and agriculture.
The most recent figures from the CSO show that almost 91% of businesses in Ireland have 10 employees or fewer.
Irish Water told us:
Irish Water produces 1.7 billion litres of clean treated drinking water each day. Approximately 47% of this is lost through leaks.
Of the remainder, approximately 60% is used by domestic customers and 40% by businesses. This assessment is based on several verified sources of information across the business…
We asked Irish Water for raw data which would help explain the 60/40 division they stated, but they were unable to provide it.
There’s a big gap between 10% and 60%, so we looked to other sources to resolve the discrepancy.
The only other official data on water usage we could find, that is specific to Ireland and compares usage within the same year, was that of the European Environment Agency.
We collated and analysed those figures for the two most recent full years available, 2011 and 2012, and found that 62% of usage was for the public water supply.
However, the public water supply, according to the European Environment Agency rubric, entails both domestic and industrial use. So by definition, the figure for domestic-only usage is lower than 62%.
Unfortunately, though, we cannot say exactly what that number is.
Therefore, the only figure available from an official source, relating specifically to Ireland, is the one provided by Irish Water in response to this FactCheck: 60% of water use in Ireland is domestic, and 40% is non-domestic.
The strength of this figure is somewhat undermined by the unavailability of raw data.
However, it compares extremely favourably with the figures cited by Brendan Ogle, which were both undated and did not relate specifically to Ireland.
Costs
Irish Water’s total allowed revenue for 2016 is €993 million. Here’s what that’s made up of:
The Local Government Fund itself is €1.8 billion in 2016. This is what it’s made up of.
It is crucial to understand that the local property tax and motor tax are not ring-fenced for Irish Water. They are simply pooled in the Local Government Fund, and then €479 million of that is taken out and given to the utility.
However, of the €286.86 million Exchequer payment, a certain amount is ear-marked for Irish Water.
In response to our queries, Brendan Ogle argued (based on 2015 figures) that:
There are some problems with this.
This is money taken from the state coffers, into which income tax, corporation tax, customs, excise, capital gains tax, etc… has gone, and not exclusively income derived from “households”.
However, what that article actually shows is that around 80% of vehicles are private, and not that 80% of motor tax receipts came from private (i.e. non-commercial) vehicles.
Because of the wide range of tax bands and tax rates involved in calculating each motorist’s annual tax, we absolutely cannot say that because 80% of vehicles are private, 80% of motor tax therefore comes from private vehicles.
Unless government funding is ring-fenced, it cannot be proven that the composition of one pot of money is reflected in transfers from that pot of money to another fund, or department, or agency. It doesn’t work like that.
But let’s go along with it for a moment, anyway.
Local Property Tax
The only part of the Local Government Fund that we can say for certain comes exclusively from private households is the Local Property Tax, as Ogle pointed out.
Let’s imagine, in theory (because this is absolutely not how it works in reality), that because 24.3% of the Local Government Fund is made up of Local Property Tax, 24.3% of the €479 million taken from that pot and given to Irish Water, comes directly from the Local Property Tax.
That’s €116.5 million. Add that to €274 million in domestic water charges, and you get €390.5 million of Irish Water’s funding (39%) coming from households.
Motor Tax
It is true that there are significantly more private vehicles than commercial vehicles in Ireland, and notwithstanding the diversity in tax rates, the bulk of motor tax is likely to come from private vehicles.
But we don’t know how much. And in any case, there isn’t a simple analogy between domestic/non-domestic water use and private/commercial motor tax.
Exchequer payment
It is also true that income tax makes up a greater proportion of public revenue than corporation tax and other business-related levies.
So – in theory – a greater proportion of that €286.86 million Exchequer payment in the Local Government Fund will come from households.
But only around 27% of the Local Government Fund itself (€479 million out of €1.8 million) goes to Irish Water.
So the absolute value of those theoretical contributions by private residents are progressively minimised as they get transferred into the fund, and from there to Irish Water.
In theory, it could be argued that households bear the cost of at least 39% of Irish Water’s funding, and probably significantly more than that.
In reality, it doesn’t work like that. So the claim of 78% or even 70% is notional, and cannot be proven.
That’s not to say it doesn’t have any merit or rhetorical value, but it simply cannot be proven as fact.
As regards costs, all we can say with certainty is that Irish Water’s funding model provides that households pay 54% of water charges while businesses pay 46%.
Anything beyond that is Unproven.
And the best data available to us indicates that households use around 60% of water, while business and agriculture uses around 40%.
The claim that 90% of water usage is non-domestic, based on figures that don’t relate to Ireland, is therefore FALSE.
And as a whole, we rate the claim Mostly FALSE.
Send your FactCheck requests to factcheck@thejournal.ie
Correction: Due to a transcription error, this article previously incorrectly stated that Brendan Ogle had claimed on Today with Seán O’Rourke that “98% of water in this country is used by big business and agriculture”. It was 90%.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
Here we go again. It’s all so normal now and will be forgotten about by next week. Only a matter of time until this comes to Ireland.
@John III Sobieski: Why would Putin start blowing people up in Ireland?
@John III Sobieski: “Comes to Ireland?” Where you were asleep during The Troubles? Bombs aren’t new to Ireland, unfortunately.
@B9xiRspG: why bring up the struggles of NI to justify Islamic terrorism.
There is no connection between the two unless your trying to imply that IRA was some religious cult out to kill all infidels
@B9xiRspG: Ah but those were nice well-meaning bombs in aid of Saint Martin McGuiness and his ilk.
Jim, so because we had violence here before, we shouldn’t be concerned about it in the future? Regardless of who it comes from. There is something really wrong with you people.
@tom: there was no attempt to justify in that comment. Talk sense ffs.
@John III Sobieski: it is pointless scaremongering about vague possibilities. There is no sensible basis for this politics of fear. I can see no reason why Ireland should be a terrorist target. Unless you have specific information, you are just trying to cause unease and disquiet.
@Tony Canning: Yes you were. You do it all the time
@Mark Mcloughlin: ah mark now let’s not be completely blatantly trolling. This is the first comment I made so how do you reckon that?
@Neal, not Neil.: When it comes out that this was the usual suspects, will you retract that first comment and sympathise with yet victims of Islamic terror? If you need a hand with spelling , give me a shout.
@Tony Canning: Im not “trolling” I am saying it how it is. And you sir are pathetic with your comparisons.
@Mark Mcloughlin: I don’t know if you’re imagining it or just assuming it but I’ve not made any comparisons. If you think I have, quote me.
They’re not worth defending, but, the IRA tended to call in a warning before some of their bombs. The islamic crazies are a different ball game entirely, they’re hungry for body counts.
@B9xiRspG: He is Polish, he wasn’t here and judging by his name he might be member of one the Polish right wing groups who troll the net posting anti-islamic rubbish.
@Tony Daly: Intel Lexlip is on the ISIS hitlist. While I was working there, we had at least three false bomb threat evacuations. The threat is certainly real.
@George Roche: exactly. Typical tactic to distract from the reach of i.s. and fellow outfits. Be interesting to see who claims responsibility ,in the context of Syria and efforts to carve it
@Neal, not Neil.: I’ve noticed a lot of your comments refers to Martin McGuiness , even though the article has nothing to do with the subject!! If a car veered off the road and hit a tree I bet you’d accuse Martin of planting that tree!
@John III Sobieski: sure we have no metro for them to blow up
And the explosion come just during wide anti-government protests in Russia and next move to ban all protests due to “safety reasons”. Reminds me FSB agents caught by Russian police planting explosives into block of flats and saying “it was training” . Putin did not controlled everything yet so such revelations were possible then.
Undoubtedly it’s Putin work, they might produce a dead terrorist from the rubble but they hardly even bother covering their tracks any more.
@Zx5vZulB:
Good to have our guys on the ground, Oleksandr and gar, reporting back to us with the facts so quickly. Keep the updates coming gents.
@Zx5vZulB: that’s all guesswork, it could just as easily be real jihadists, the real news is about 10 families devastated.
@Oleksandr Savitskyy: Transport infrastructure has been targeted many times before in Russia by Islamic terrorists so bit of a straw argument to try and link this now with any protests that are going on around the same time.
You remind me of Joe Duffy the way I’d say you get excited every time your news alert for Russia comes in. It would be easier to genuinely consider some of the points you try raise if it wasn’t so laughably one sided and largely single issued around the narrative of everything that happens in Russia is Putin doing this,Putin doing that.
We get it, Putin does bad things. It doesn’t mean he controls and directs every act inside if Russia. And it’s disingenuous of you to try and raise it again after an act of terrorism like this. Your comments would hold more weight with a bit if balance included.
I actually think the way you’ve deflected to a non issue with your comment is petty and shallow given that innocent commuters have just been killed by what one can surely assume is Islamic extremists. I didn’t see you running to make any such similar comments after attacks in France,UK or Germany.
@Oleksandr Savitskyy: Surely Russians also attacked themselves in 1942 to allow Stalin to kill millions of Russians he did not like ;)
@cortisola: Stalin was busy butchering his Poltical enemies at the time. Estimated at around 20 million. But as Olek has said Putin does have previous for this sort of thing. 2 separate Apartment Blocks and a 3rd that was foiled all for an excuse to attack Chechnya when he was Head of the FSB and Interior Troops.
@Andy Brown: Andy pure propaganda from this Ukrainian guy who misses no chance to have a go at Russia even in tragic circumstances. It is pretty low to resort to this level of trolling based on pure fiction when many people have been killed by what is clearly a Jihadi attack in response to Russia’s involvement in Syria. Cannot believe anyone would believe his nonsense.
Putin also ate my pet hamster. He knows no bounds.
@Mick Jordan: He had damn good reason to intervene in Chechyna which was a pretty lawless place where people were brutally treated by Chechen Islamists. They also kidnapped and murdered a lot of people in a Russian school – 300 people in fact of which 186 children.
https://www.rt.com/news/183964-beslan-school-hostage-crisis/
Male and female Islamic Chechen terrorists also attacked an opera house in Moscow killing 120 people.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/hostage-crisis-in-moscow-theater
@gregory: propaganda, says you! Good one. How’s he fraperoom?
@cortisola: It was 1941. And before that Stalin murdered nearly the same amount own citizens as died in the war. And together with Germans invaded Poland and Finland before.
@gregory: And now Chechnya is unofficialy under Sharia law with gangster Kadyrov in power where ppl just disappear if they are not happy with something
@gregory: Mate find me please the parts of my text where are I disrespected killed people? You use the same tactics as your boss.Bring blood, human pain and emotions to support his rule.
@gregory: Tell me how that coincident happened that last week Russian Duma passed the law “that protesters can be forcefully remote by police if there are security risks and their life is in danger” And we have exposition in a week time in the middle of protests. And I am sure ISIS may claim this one as well as they have own propaganda and goals so very often they claim any attack so they can apply these news to their bloodthirsty supportes
@Oleksandr Savitskyy:
Wouldn’t be the first.
@gregory: Those events happened After the first and second Chechen wars.
@Oleksandr Savitskyy: Finland conspired with Nazi Germany to mine the straight from the Baltic Sea to St. Petersburg effectively sealing off the city. The result? Millions of dead people who died of starvation and cold….a slow death. Its all on this History Channel mate.
@gregory: Remind us who invaded Finland in 39 and brought the Finns into the War in the fist place.
@Mick Jordan: Germany.
@Mick Jordan: and before Finland Germany invaded Latvia and built a concentration / gassification plant in Salaspils Latvia outside Riga.
And we are importing this problem into little old Ireland as we speak. Trouble ahead..
@Mark Mcloughlin: Are we really? We don’t even know what’s behind this yet but there you go jumping to conclusions and being all paranoid.
@Mark Mcloughlin: How exactly are we “importing” bombings into Ireland?
@Rui Firmino: Called having a brain pal. Give it an hour or 2 until we know for sure, i already do as stated but for simpletons like you who are so dearly hoping its some “white supremacist” attack. You will go missing as soon as its announced like you and all the other bleeding heart brigade do EVERY TIME there is an attack in Europe. Much rather bang on about the catholic church and the fictional gender pay gap. Hope it all comes round to bite you in the ass tbh. See how “tolerant” and “progressive” you are then ha
@Mark Mcloughlin: So in an hour or two it will be confirmed that terrorists will be imported to Ireland?
@Rui Firmino:
So you are of the opinion that we have nothing to fear from Islamic migration into Western cultures?
@OpenBorders: No what i said George
@Mark Mcloughlin: He’s just yanking ur chain. These idiots on here are even suggesting that the Russian Government would conspire to blow up their own metro system killing their own in order to enforce a crack down on peaceful protests. Their credibility is completely shot, beyond ridiculuous. They are so brain washed about anti Russia propoganda they would even post so obvious nonsense that tbh is beyond belief.
@Mark Mcloughlin: If you have a brain you should really use it, “pal”. I just moved back from Germany, who have welcomed well over a million refugees, and I would much rather have them as a neighbour than the likes of you.
Darn Budhist’s!
Condolences to the families and friends of the victims.
More than likely the peaceful branch of IS
@Shane Molloy: IS has never attacked Russian territories so its not likely at all you hype merchant.
@tom:
Russia has suffered many islamic terror attacks, but none that can definitively be linked to IS.
@tom: A ShoeBat article. LOL .Boy you really delve deep don’t yah.
@Muiris O’Daltuin: don’t like the source then look it up for yourself, all the MSM carried the story so take your pick….
@Muiris O’Daltuin: “The peaceful branch of IS.” Are you immune to sarcasm or do you just like boating around the storm in your teacup…?
@Shane Molloy: Western agitators?
@tom: : No I don’t like the source. Its a Christian hate rag. But the woman had no links to IS, even the Shoe Bat didn’t make that claim. You made the link yourself. Not every Muslim is affiliated with IS. Its far more likely the blame for the bombing lies with a group from Chechnyia, but if it does turn out to be confirmed as an ISIS attack that would be unprecedented.
@Patrick Kearns: No I’m not immune to sarcasm, but a newly minted egg account spreading rubbish around a popular forum did irritate me enough to respond. There’s far too much of that sort thing going on here. The moderators need to up their game……. Now if you’ll excuse me I’ll get back to sailing my yacht around this tea cup. A boat wouldn’t cut it in this storm.
@Muiris O’Daltuin:
You do know that the most extremest members of IS are in fact Chechen?
@Shane Molloy: It’s more likely to be insurgents from the Caucasus’ who have carried out several similar attacks on the Russian rail network.
@Avina Laaf: So who you think brought down a Russian plane full of tourists from Egypt ?
They won’t get away with this time, the Russians are tough people and accusations of “Islamophobia” won’t deter them from meting out punishment.
Russia have liquidated over 30.000 US mercenaries (ISIS) in Syria, destroying their plan to overthrow the legitimate Government . This was the reaction way back in September.
US Spox John Kirby threatens Russia with “more body bags, attacks on Russian Cities”
This is just the beginning.
https://geopolitics.co/2016/09/29/us-spox-john-kirby-threatens-russia-with-more-body-bags-attacks-on-russian-cities/
@Pat O’Dwyer: yes pat, we all know you love mother Russia and won’t hear a bad word said about her.
@Tony Canning: Similar to your relationship with Mohammed so Tony
@Pat O’Dwyer: Unfortunately Islamic attacks have happened in Russia before;
https://www.rt.com/news/183964-beslan-school-hostage-crisis/
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/hostage-crisis-in-moscow-theater
@Mark Mcloughlin: I have no relationship with any religious entity Mark so still not sure what you’re on about.
@Tony Canning: This is a terrible tragedy, no matter where it happens. I have been living in Russia for the past ten years. I spent most of my life in Germany and also defended it against unfair criticism whilst living there. Dito when I lived in Vietnam. There are enough people on here criticizing those countries, and rightly so, each in their own respect. Russia for example is nearly 100% the opposite to what most people are told to believe. This is all politically motivated.
@Pat O’Dwyer: I’ll take that on the chin Pat – I think most can totally accept that there is a lot of propaganda that is both perpetuated and debunked on social and news media.
My post was a bit of eye-rolling at what you must admit is a typically pro-russia view rather than an on-balance one. The eye-rolling might be a bit unfair given that I can understand your position.
@Pat O’Dwyer: Yep. Last weak Duma passed the law that police will be able to arrest protesters if they have Intel about security risks. I just read Russian news that Russian Sovfed is ready to pass new “antiterorist laws”. Quick work. The most amazing nobody claimed the attack yet and there were no investigation yet as well
@Tony Canning: Suuuurrrreeeeee
@Tony Canning: Anything stated by Mark Mcloughlin can be dismissed on the basis he doesn’t know his arse from his elbow.
Your posts are usually well thought out and you make a valuable contribution to this forum.
@Pat O’Dwyer: Complete rubbish from a Kremlin funded propaganda site.
Condolences to the victims and the families of the victims of this very sad disaster.
Chechens most likely,are to blame, things have started to heat up in Chechnya once more.
Skankbag give that bus driver a medal
Checnya hasnt been playing ball of late.. now doubt a “reason” for another assualt there. Looks like something from the “former” kgb
@iMoan Brutal: Chechnya hasn’t being playing ball ? Apart from a couple of smaller incidents linked to Islamic extremism Chechnya is one of the most stable regions due to the huge investment there and is one of the biggest supporters of Putin and current Russian government through Kadyrov and his control of the area.
@Andy Brown: My answer below.
Breaking news are reporting that a bomb has been found and deactivated at a second train station.
@Andy Brown: Could be jihadist as well but too many coincidents. All media attention now is on protests and the Kremlin bunch is really scared. Just to remind you, the most loud ones: 1. 1999 apartment buildings. Fsb agents caught planting explosives in one of the buildings. As Putin did not controlled all the country and media so it went public. Straight after Putin started second Chichen war.
2. Beslan. According to “Organisation of Mothers of Beslan” (who all those years were bought, threatened and humiliated by Putin media, with 2 mothers being arrested last year for “illegal protests”) the terrorists were let to the school and just drove through the security and majority of kids was killed by Russian Forces using flamethrowers and tanks. After that west recognized Chechens as terrorist and Putin pushed good few new laws to increase his powers. BTW he never met parents of the killed kids.
3. Grenade explosion during political rally of extreme pro Russian politician Natalie Vitrenko who by exit polls was loosing election. Of course the diva even was not scratched but good few ppl were injured. Then this explosion was used by Russian propaganda to push Vitrenko’s ratings.
I can least at least 6 more “coincidents”. Do you recon the guy who killed few hundred opposition leaders, activist and journalists won’t be capable of killing few ppl to stop protests and bring new even more draconian laws? Watch news. BTW again coincident, just a week ago Russian Duma passed the law allowing ” protesters to be forcefully remote if there is a threat to their safety and security. Bingo or is it coincident again. And of course ISIS may claim this explosion, they always do even if attack done by lone wolf. They have their own propaganda agenda and Fsb is aware about this.
@Oleksandr Savitskyy: You mean It’s becoming like the US now ? “Ex CIA Agent: Every Terrorist Attack In US Was A False Flag Attack”
Former CIA agent , Robert David Steele, about false flag attacks.
Whistleblower David Steele, a former Marine and CIA clandestine services case officer says that most terrorists are false flag terrorists, or were created by our own security services.
Begins at 15 min.
http://www.anonews.co/cia-agent-terror/
@Pat O’Dwyer: where do you see Usain this article?
@Oleksandr Savitskyy: Olek, u are f*king insane man.
It’s easy picking innocent targets isn’t it……….fu*king cowardly skum.
I am the Senate!
Won’t have look far for source of bomb, funny how instigator was in St. Peters burg as well today. Kreme in book stops with you. . RIP those who lost their life today so innocently
Looks like the work of Putin’s thugs, probably will have a few scape goat’s in custody soon .
@Gerry Dunne: Typically ignorant comment from someone who has no idea about Russia at all. This comment is beyond ridiculuous.
@Gerry Dunne: Putin has made it clear with Crimea and Syria that he will very quickly deal with those who threaten Russian people or Russias allies. He is vilified by the west for this as it goes against their objectives. Not the man to bomb his own citizens.
Bit of a conspiracy theory but……..
Wonder did Putin set this up himself just to have a valid reason to keep bombing Syria & Libia, him & Trump are financial gangsters wouldn’t put anything past them
@DubKid: Putin went to assist Syria when thought it was necessary to curtail IS expansion. No he does not need to blow up his own metro system in St. Petersburg killing his own people 3 years later to justify that decision. Clear enough?
@DubKid:The UK France and the U.S. bombed Libya. Not Russia.
have your say