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AS 96% OF Irish primary schools are religious-run, enrolment policies are coming under more and more scrutiny each September. In this three-day special series, TheJournal.ie explores the role religion plays in our classrooms and what’s being done in the sector.
Religion in Ireland has never been an easy subject, not least when it comes to educating the country’s children.
Sixteen years into the 21st century, the problem of faith in the classroom has been brought to boiling point with the issue of divestment of schools, or the removal of a proportion of our 3,266 national schools from the patronage of the church. It’s been a long time coming, and there’s an awful long way to go.
Ireland has gone through an incredible amount of social change in the last 30 years, and an inability to keep everyone happy has led to stasis. Divestment is an attempt to ease the pressure caused by a lack of educational choice.
Fundamentally, the current drive for divestment was put in place in 2011 by then Education Minister Labour’s Ruairi Quinn to tackle the fact that Ireland’s education system was fundamentally skewed towards those of Catholic faith at best, and at worst basically failed to provide education to children who were not of that (or in some cases any) faith as a basic human right.
Stories of parents who have baptised their children purely to get them into a national school are never far from the headlines here. They have done so because they have no choice if they want to see their children educated.
Divestment to effectively-secular institutions like Educate Together schools is the solution the Irish government came up with in 2011. Fifty schools was the target number for voluntary removal from church patronage. So far eight have been divested.
However, the first inklings of the strategy were in fact seen in the previous Fianna Fáil government with the initiation of the Community National School (CNS) project by then Education Minister Mary Hanafin. That was 2007.
The Community National School project concerns schools that teach religion within class hours, but where no one religion is favoured over any other. Under this initiative children are segregated along faith lines for their religious instruction. At present there are 11 Community National Schools in Ireland.
In theory there should be no barrier to any child’s attendance being accepted at at CNS (this is not the case with Catholic-patroned schools who under the Equal Status Act 2000 are effectively entitled to discriminate against a child by virtue of their religion).
The key focal points for divestment in our schools are areas (mostly rural) where diversity of choice for parents as regards their children’s education basically doesn’t exist. So the onus is on the Catholic Church to give up its premises to other, less overtly religious institutions.
The issue would be an easy one for someone who is not either a parent or expecting a child to miss, but if you’re in either of those scenarios, and particularly if you are of no religious faith, it’s a big problem.
So what can be done to fix it?
Church endorsed
At present primary schools in Ireland fall into three categories – either church-patroned (the overwhelming majority, almost 3,140 schools), Community National Schools, and Educate Together institutions.
Educate Together schools are effectively secular with no religion taught during school hours, and a policy of acceptance of all applicants. Their popularity, particularly in Dublin, means the limited places available are hopelessly swamped by demand.
However, the approach favoured by the State via three successive governments has been to run with the CNS project, or those that cater for all denominations as regards within-school-hours religious education. The reason? Well, the Catholic Church here has had a large say in the direction of those schools, and CNS is the project the Church is happy to work with.
Other churches are not particularly happy with this approach. The Church of Ireland has said it would be “inappropriate to separate denominational groups for religious education as this runs counter to the concept of a school providing inclusive education”, while the Methodist Church said it was “in full agreement” with that sentiment.
The system also leaves Educate Together schools, where all religious education (if there is any) takes place after school hours on a voluntary basis, a little bit sidelined.
All told (and the figure is variable – everyone seems to have a different definition for whatever divestment means), roughly eight schools (two in Dublin and one each in Mayo, Meath, Waterford, Galway, Offaly, and Wexford) have been divested in the last five years, a painfully small amount by any standards given the initial target of 50. And another premises earmarked for divestment, in Castlebar, even managed to hit the headlines when Educate Together were bequeathed an abandoned school that hadn’t been occupied in ten years.
New Education Minister Richard Bruton has sought to take the problem on with a new school admissions Bill, and a vow to have a further 400 schools divested by 2030.
However, his “favoured approach”, like that of his three predecessors, is to focus on the CNS model as regards divestment. That means multi-denominational religious education in one school, which in turn means segregation of sorts, an issue which Educate Together is not one bit happy with. Other ventures include divestment into joint patronage with other bodies, and new schools.
But fundamentally, the CNS project appears to be the only show in town from the government’s point of view and has been for nearly 10 years. While that to an extent solves the ‘baptism barrier’ mentioned above, it opens up other problems, borne out by the fact that CNS is struggling for traction against Educate Together schools despite its governmental endorsement.
Educate Together
The problem with getting anyone to agree on anything to do with this subject can be traced back to a parental preferences survey carried out in 2013 by the Department of Education.
Of the parents consulted in five indicative areas of the country, 37% and 50% of them expressed support for a wider range of patronage in their area – while between 25% and 30% said they would avail of a wider choice of patronage were it available.
These findings were dismissed by the Catholic Schools Partnership as being “not based on a representative sample”.
Nonetheless, Educate Together says that of the three areas in Dublin in 2016 where children were registered for new schools, 1,173 children were signed up for its brand of education, with just 70 children signing up for CNS. That’s quite a gap by any standards.
Educate Together’s problems with the CNS template are well-documented – it sees CNS as segregationist (children from different faiths are split up when it comes to religious education) and unconstitutional (in that by separating children along faith lines, the schools are effectively in breach of Ireland’s laws regarding religious discrimination – non-faith schools having a responsibility to provide equal service for their students). However, as noted before, CNS is the format that the Church is prepared to do business with.
That in itself is enough to render non-religious households disinterested in the CNS model. In 2010, about 50% of Ireland’s Catholics identified strongly with their religion (ie attended mass at least once a week). About 50% didn’t. The impasse is obvious. But how do you make progress with divestment in such a quagmire of contrasting opinion?
For Luke O’Shaughnessy of Educate Together, the issue is primarily one of funding.
“There’s a combination of factors blocking divestment, but more than anything it has no real funding attached to it,” he says.
It was seen as a no-cost programme when it was first initiated. The Department of Education is severely underfunded. You can’t do this on fresh air.
Educate Together has little time for the CNS model, as you might expect given the two formats are in direct competition with each other.
“They’re not a viable alternative to faith-based schools. How can they be when the Church itself has had such input into them?” says O’Shaughnessy.
He argues that a key problem is that Ireland’s educational system is completely unique, dominated almost completely by religious patronage.
This is not absolutely correct – other countries have had to deal with such dominance to a certain extent. However one thing is certain, the amount of time spent on religious education in Irish schools is twice that of other European countries.
But the slow pace with which anything gets done in Ireland does perhaps mark us out from the pack.
Equal Status Act
April Duff, legal officer with volunteer organisation Education Equality meanwhile sees two immediate solutions to the current problem – and divestment isn’t among them.
“Building schools, or divestment, isn’t the overall problem. The issue is that the majority of people want to be with other children without borders, and in schools at present that isn’t the case,” she says.
She sees two ways to deal with the issue of religion in schools: remove Section (7)(3)c of the Equal Status Act 2000 (which provides that a school can discriminate against a child as regards preference should that child’s religion contravene “the ethos” of the school), and place all religious instruction in Irish schools at the end of the school day.
“If you want to create equality you’re looking at changing the way that all state schools do things, every school that receives state funding,” she says.
In France, Catholic schools receive funding on the provision that they don’t discriminate. We need the same to happen here.
Like Educate Together, Duff has major misgivings regarding the CNS model.
“They were devised by a Fianna Fáil government in partnership with the Church. It’s the easy option, the Church backs it, and that’s what they’re happy with,” she says.
But the fact remains that that type of school creates an idea in a child’s head that there is a difference between people because of religions. You can see it in the north, it infects all aspects of life with prejudice. And prejudice leads to hate.
The other side
So, on one side of the divide we have a deep distrust of the CNS model. If Educate Toether’s figures are to be believed many parents seem to have little interest in it, particularly in Dublin. Educate Together itself scathing of it. But that’s the model that successive governments here have gone with.
So how do things seem from the other side?
Pat O’Mahony, Education Policy Officer with Education and Training Boards Ireland (ETBI), the administrative board for the CNS programme, is adamant that Community National Schools are the only viable future option as regards divestment.
“What we’re talking about is a national school that allows all children in a community to go to school together,” he says.
I think we’ve had enough divisions on this island already. Children from the same community should be going through school together rather than having separate kinds of schools.
O’Mahony doesn’t believe that the Church has had too much input into the CNS project, saying that all the Church wants to achieve “is to ensure that Catholic children have the right to their belief”.
“The community college is a model solution in a way,” he says.
If you go to west Clare, you can’t have too many schools, you have to have one. I don’t think it’s right that someone in Tallaght should have greater opportunities than someone in Clare.
There is a sense now that we decry those who have a religious belief just because they have that belief.
But nor does the ETBI think that the situation of divestment is one that everyone should necessarily have a say in. What’s best for everyone “shouldn’t be a popularity contest” says O’Mahony.
It isn’t a great idea to have a vote on this. I would contend that what a Community National School has to offer isn’t understood. With medical services, we don’t let people vote on the kind of medicine they should take.
“We have to have regard to costs as well as meeting the needs of the public,” he says.
What happens next?
All this shows a community still divided, and showing no great signs of being capable of meeting in the middle.
So what is likely to happen next? With the UN committee on the rights of the child putting pressure on the Irish government to create diversity in our educational system, is something set to give?
Richard Bruton has said that divestment remains the way forward and committed in June to the design of a road map for the future of child-education to cater for people of both religious belief and no belief.
But Bruton has only been education minister for a matter of months, and the odds are short on him being so for too much longer – the current government is on anything but solid foundations. This may account for his favouring of the CNS model despite it being seen as at odds with the majority of parents’ wishes, particularly in Dublin.
Likewise, Bruton’s school admissions Bill, while worthwhile in its commitment to the doing-away with of fees and waiting lists, does not really tackle the problem of a lack of choice for parents who don’t wish religion to be a part of their children’s education in any shape or form.
But the problem can be phrased in simpler terms. As things stand, less than 10 schools have been divested in five years. There are just 11 Community National Schools in Ireland. And church-patroned schools still account for 96% of what’s on offer to parents across the country.
We’ve a long way to go to come even close to balancing the scales.
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For the love of God not another article on this!
For the love of God, let children have equal access to schools.
I was in school in Galway with non Catholic American student. No problem whatsoever. His parents chose the Catholic school based on quality of education.
And would the teachers suddenly become useless if it wasn”t a catholic school Gregory?
Ok what’s wrong with a non-catholic going to a Catholic school getting a great education and keeping his own faith?
Reg, what are u on about? The majority of teachers and students were Catholic. But it was not mandatory to attend religion class once a week if u were non catholic.
Religious indocrination should not take place in state paid for school. It’s time for it to stop.
Says Reg who knows nought about the de-Christianity of EU countries who have followed this path and are in Ganz Scheisse right now.
Mich, it’s a seriously important issue, that hasn’t been resolved. Only when it has been sorted out, will you stop reading articles about it. Besides, can’t you just use your thumb, and scroll past? Or are you being forced to read it under duress?
Complete crap, imagine how much better the ‘quality of education’ would have been if the time spent on religious education had been spent teaching STEM related curriculum, ‘gregory’.
My wife is latvian. I have many lithuanian and polish friends who have children in this country. They rather like our Christian based system and have no problems whatsoever.
Not true Mr Sinn Fein Connolly. Many Americans chose to send their kids to Ireland because of the high quality of Education. My time in religious classes was minimal. Kids these days spend more time on inet/Facebook etc than all school classes combined.
More bollocks!
The problem with practicing Irish Catholics,who represent about 1 in 10,000 of the populace,is that they deny that their number is up,the game is up.
The Left have rightly gained control of every facet of power and influence in society bar education,and once that falls to us,within 20 years we’ll have wiped out religious ideology in Ireland at a brushstroke,like an anti-bacterial wipe we will clean their disease from the education system.
Church buildings will be viewed as curios by children,they’ll read the history of the Roman Cult in Ireland with disbelief and disgust,that children just like them were maimed,murdered and raped by a cult that owned those same buildings. It’s going to be great to be alive to witness it.
Get back to your cave.
When you have little or no understanding of the cultural background to this debate, you would be well advised to remain silent.
Lol attending religion class once a week as an opt-in is NOT a Catholic school or at least does not represent the majority of Catholic schools where you all have to pray etc etc multiple times a day
There is families living in cars.
There are people lying on trolleys for days on end.
You can’t have an abortion in this country.
You can’t get a politician because they are on one long holiday.
And finally the majority of people struggle to afford to send their kids to school and all he can talk about is bloody religion!!!!
Maria the ‘real’ problems are the ones felt by the middle classes, such as this
@gregory, there was s this notion that faith schools are better. In countries like Ireland it’s hard to see a difference due to homogeneity. In other countries you can see the difference. The difference isn’t so much that religious schools are any better, only that the parents are willing to dance the dance in order to get their kids into these schools. The common link isn’t faith, it’s parents giving a toss about education to the extent that they will try to meet the requirements regardless of their own beliefs.
What’s wrong with children of all religions going to a non religious school and learning about all religions but practicing none ? I don’t want my kid been indoctrinated with that bullshit. It’s grooming is what it is. Teach kids about all religions and atheism, and let them decide themselves when they’re 18. Oh wait, if we did that organised religion would be dead within a couple of generations. Can’t have that can we?
In Goose Shit?
@Mal: well said. Learning about different religions and cultures surely is the better way. It should bring more tolalence in society.
My daughter is a well learned Christian and wanted to go to what I would call a Protestant secondary school.
At the enrollment we were advised that all other religions were before her even non Christian denominations because she was baptised as a Catholic.
So it works both ways for those of you who are interested.
What’s the name of the school? You are clearly spreading untruths! Now, that’s not very Christian (or is it?).
That’s not right I agree. But Ireland should respect it’s roots as a Christian culture?
Religion is a private issue. We need a separation of all religions from the State. Ireland is a republic, religious freedom should be respected, but never given special status in our Constitution.
along with its pagan culture, druidic culture, etc, equally
Isn’t it mad that someone can be denied an education because they don’t have an imaginary friend… It is absolute nonsense.
I won’t name the school, there is no point in causing trouble.
I can verify it, it did occur.
She could not get a place there because of her Catholic religion, what is so hard to understand about that ?
In allocating places the following priority is followed:
1.Applicants who are members of the Church of Ireland (or other Anglican/Episcopalian Churches) or members of Churches which are full ecumenical partners of the Church of Ireland (member churches of the Irish Council of Churches, Churches Together in Britain and Ireland or Conference of European Churches) i.e. Belgian/French/Dutch Reformed Church, Congregational Federation, Lutheran Church,1 Methodist Church,Moravian Church, Non Subscribing Presbyterian Church, Old Catholic Church, Orthodox Churches, Presbyterian Church, Religious Society of Friends, the Salvation Army and the United Reformed Church
(verification details required on application form).
2. Applicants where one or both parents are members of churches listed above
(verification details required on application form).
3.Siblings of children who are already enrolled in the school for the proposed year of entry of the
applicant and children of staff of the school.
4.Applicants who are members of Protestant Churches other than those listed above.
5.Applicants attending a Church of Ireland Primary School.
6.Siblings of past pupils
7.Applicants where there is a long established association with, connection to and support of the
School.
8. Children of past pupils.
9.Other applicants having regard to
(i) sympathy of applicant and his/her parents/guardians to the school ethos, and
(ii) gender balance in the school.
1 Children of Porvoo Churches i.e. the Lutheran Churches of Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, Estonia and Lithuania since 1996 are full members of the Church of Ireland when resident in Ireland. The term “Church of Ireland” should be taken to include them in this
enrolment policy.
Name the school. What’s the problem? You’re just referencing the school policy. Give the name or retract your statement.
What is the problem George ?
Do you think I am a liar ?
I don’t care what you think.
I have copied and pasted their entrance requirements above.
What happened was my daughters friends attended that school but as I stated my daughter being a Catholic experienced a refusal by the school.
She did go on to attend another local school which is Catholic.
My point is that even though we attend both Catholic and ‘Protestant’ services on occasion that minority religions like Protestantism has more stringent admittance rules than ‘general Catholic schools.
I can understand it to a point for they fear that their own ethos would be overrun.
That was our experience.
Or as a Santa Claus culture? Or as a leprechaun culture? Or as a children of Lír culture? Grow up.
Name the school. If it’s their policy, then there is no issue! You won’t because it never happened. Are you a liar?
What’s the problem? Try taking ur family to Saudi. At some point we have to stand up and say this is our culture?
culture isn’t monolithic gregory, its a diverse tapestry
Thanks China, how eloquent are you? Oh sorry I should succumb to fumf etc
Jester, I never invoked Catholicism in this discussion. I asked the question about if being Irish means living in a Christian world.
Gregory; it is the culture of SOME IRISH people, not all.
It doesn’t, Gregory, believe me.
Why is the state promoting CNS, I know John Bruton is an ultra Catholic, is the bro one too.
The state should not be promoting any religion and teaching the nonsense they believe in.
Nonsense. I turned down a lucrative job in Saudi. My wife have 2 surrender passport. Cant go w/o male minder 2 mcdonalds. Cant drive etc. Ireland is a free country but we have a right to our culture?
Ruiari Quinn sent his Kids to Private Catholic schools…I suppose the local Community school just was not good enough
WTF has Saudi got to do with this subject!
Saudi Arabia is possibly the worst example to pick, it is place run by religious nutcases, bit like the Vatican.
Cormac, that’s not about culture only money…best tuition etc
Cormac I suppose he was overwhelmed with alternative choices! NOT!
Saudis respect their culture. We do not.
Is it not a constitutional right to believe in nonsense and be entitled under the state to have a school which promotes a nonsense ethos?
You don’t have to agree with my nonsense but you must allow me my democratic right.
Nobody is denying you your culture Gregory. Not sure why the state should finance and facilitate religious indocrination though.
Reg, u completely missed the point. Ready post again.
Or the atheist nut cases like north Korea.
Are we to take it that you are one of the God squad, and your name is ‘Con’ Con?
Go on, I love irony……
Mr. Sinn Fein Connolly; What is wrong with believing in a God? What is wrong with Christian beliefs?
For Connolly, If that is the best you can do I can only feel sorry for you.
Gregory. The James Connolly would turn in his grave if he though this person was using his name. Comparing James conollyto this characator is like comparing Rembrandt to Rolf Harris.
Fee paying choices…Id sat its a case with him of Don’t do as I do but as I say
Yes Tom Burke, but you do not have the right to drag everyone else along with you.
Nothing is won with godly beliefs, Gregory; just don’t force them down other peoples’ throats.
North Korea is a dictatorship, would be nuts if they were religious or nut like Zimbabwe or Turkey!
An Atheist dictatorship Proinsias.
Do Saudis have any choice? Fear isn’t respect.
So, as I predicted on another article, Educate Together and the 18 staff that are on one million, one hundred and forty six thousand euro a year have bought the Journal. Is that what has happened?
Dilution is the solution. In the end we will lose our identity. No religion or people are perfect. Question is: what it means to be Irish?
Being Irish has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with being Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or any other religion.
What does it mean to be Polish/Lithuanian/Latvian? To NOT be Irish/Russian/German. It is the ideology of rejection, separateness, opposition. Redundant in the 21st century in Europe. Or do you LIKE war?
Paris is worth a mass.
School is worth a baptism and a mass.
Religion still permeates much of Irish public life and society.
Tbh the problem is the lack of religion/values. Seen that nonsense channel 4 programme “naked truth”?
Yes, of course the problem is a lack of religious values. We need more kids to know that HIV is bad, but that condoms are worse.
Seriously.
and who are ashamed of sex and their sexuality
Another agenda driven article by mummy editor who had problems getting little Johnny into a school as we have heard numerous times on Matt Cooper
Go back to bed. Your poor little head hurts.
Why don’t the heathen organise their own schools instead of constantly whinging about what has served the country well for generations.
They are trying! It’s not allowed! Don’t you understand the argument?
BEcause the Heathens pay taxes (usually more than believers) and pay for the the schools we already have.
Now where’s me catechism?
Educate Together schools are not the only multi-denom schools in Ireland. Gaelscoileanna under the patronage of An Foras are also multi-d
Where is the 96% figure coming from. Seems an extraordinary high percentage.
You be almost garuanteed that if religion was stripped out of schools and thought on a Sunday school or out of hours the thriving business that is Communion and Confirmation parties would cease to exist!
Id like to have been told about different religions instead of having the same one over and over.
I’ve always been concerned about the amount of time spent on preparation in both Communion and Confirmation years. My kids went to non catholic schools and were streets ahead of their peers starting secondary school precisely for this reason.
Bull Barbara bull.
The best schools in this country and the U.K. Are Catholic schools.
It’s why they are falling over themselves to get in.
Your statement is completely untrue.
nothing to do with 92% of the schools being Catholic.. the ignorance.
“You can’t come in unless you believe in my imaginary friend”.
History has shown that religion is dangerous and it hasn’t improved when you consider he state of the world. The Catholics stated most wars and most colonisation.
Politics is dangerous and divisive.
Should it be banned from the classroom?
Economic theory is dangerous and divisive.
Should it be banned from the classroom?
Come back when you have learnt to construct a logical argument, Joey.
ETB’s (old VEC) have a stake in the community national school model as they fall under their control. Hence give them an entry into control of primary education, upto this point only involved in post-primary. The ETBs want to manage all education in their areas and this suits the dept – (and politicians) and on the face of it makes logical sense…but …
Nobody wants to go to the ones in the working class areas
Maybe we can set up hedge schools for the non-catholic kids in Ireland.
have your say