Remember it will be the Apple shareholders who pay and not the workers. If Ireland had that money we could build a fine childrens hospital and take the homeless off the streets.

Aoife, because our FDI ‘guests’ contribute massively, both directly and indirectly, to the public purse. And, if this battle for €19Bn is won by the E.U they will win the war against Ireland Inc. and our guests will bail out. This will substantially diminish the governments spending power and we’ll all feel it. [Paying for water is not an issue for most folk. It's paying for John Tierney and his cronies and lining-up our water infrastructure for privatisation is what's at issue!]

ff are back the appeal what fooools are voting these clowns in.

Greg this is a question about Apple paying their taxes and has little or nothing to do with Irish Water. You seem to be suggesting that taxation is a dirty word, it isn’t. There is a large part of rural irealnd still suffering through poor infrastructure and lack of services because of compamies like Apple not paying their fair share.

Ireland’s most successful service sector is the design of, facilitation of and implementation of highly artificial tax avoidance schemes, which are technically legal but highly unethical and reputation ally damaging.

Both FF and FG have endorsed and supported the tax avoidance sector in Ireland.

in five years time the irish will have forgotten this madness and vote ff fg back in gold fish memories is all I can say

Voted in by an idiot electorate.

19 Billion is an awful lot of money, a lot more than Apple would pay in taxes over a decade. Apple might up and leave, but people will get new jobs. It might be more favourable for the country if our gov tell Apple where to go and take the money, but our clueless overpaid morons in gov probably don’t see that. They usually don’t see anything, they’re so bad! Bad at business strategy and bad at running the country.

Greg once again we tead the ‘scare’ stiry of these multi nationals bailing out if we levy our proper corporate tax tate of 12.5%. Please tell us where they will bail to, as that 12.5% rate is lowest in EU and access to that market is the only reason these companies darken our shores.

EU said…”Ireland you’re a tax haven!”
Ireland replied….” NO! We’re NOT!….but please don’t force big companies here to pay their taxes to us”

@Chris Kirk: I was responding to Aoife’s question concerning the Government’s contradictory approach to the EU’s efforts to adjust Ireland’s tax policy under two differing headers. It was thoroughly relevant to mention Irish Water in that context, as Aoife had specifically raised the matter. I did not suggest, nor do I agree, that ‘Taxation’ is a dirty word though I submitted a personal view, in parenthesis for that reason, as to why Irish Water has met with such massive resistance, that being, once again, the WASTE of tax-payers money. ‘Cronyism’ Chris, that is a dirty business and nobody here wants their tax-dollar paying for it.

Because 1. This isn’t Ireland’s money, it’s based off profits earned in other countries and moved through Ireland, not illegally but perhaps unethically, they didn’t breach any laws, we just had weaker laws than we should have. It is not within Ireland’s remit to collect and spend money from other EU states. If the money is awarded pending appeals than other EU countries will be able to lay claim to this money.

2.The EU is telling us our tax system was wrong and this is what it should have been, this is a dangerous precedent. It’s the equivalent of them saying your income tax was too low, it should have been 5% higher, collect all the tax of your citizens. Irish tax system is for Ireland do create and maintain, not to be dictated by the European Union.

What Apple did is unethical, but not illegal. We need to change the laws to ensure that we correctly collect tax in the future.

Yes indeed, and the government will fight the EU ‘bullys’ on the Apple Ruling …..yet would not defend or fight for its own citizens when the EU bullied us into Austerity

Enda Kenny is a coward like anyone that supports F.G.

Jimmy Rustle your simply WRONG !… all 18bn comes to Ireland..

As for protecting business ? could your business get this deal or any one local Irish firm ? Fact is this was a sweet heart deal done between Apple & Irish Gov, Apple gives us jobs in Cork (at the time a employment blackhole) & it can funnel its worldwide sales via a Irish company with no Staff !!.. to its bank account in Cayman without any tax payment. I like to heard you go to the Tax man & set that one up for yourself & if you can can you please let me know Thanks…

Heard on the radio that this could bring down the government. Because of the government having independents support. They may not all agree to an appeal.

But FF will back the blueshirts Littleone. Both parties represent the capitalist class, not the majority.

Isnt that what always happens in a revoloution, you change one ruling elite for another.. And rarely do you get the elite you thought were going to get… the extremists ,left or right tend to gain control.. If your lucky (very lucky) , they know how to run a country, society and economy as well as foreign affairs

And you know this or believe this ??

The Jeff this “sweetheart deal” has been a great boost to our economy. Would you rather we just made our money picking spuds for pennies? We give them a great deal and we win the business or have no business at all. Why should we tax them more for the EU? This is Ireland and we shouldn’t be bullied and told what to do by the EU. The EU does not care about what they can do for our country. The EU did not care about Ireland until after the troubles. The EU only put their foot in our door when we started doing well. All the EU cares about is how they can benefit from us. It’s the completely uneducated opinions of people like you that keeps us in shackles when we have have greater interests beyond the restrictions the EU has imposed on us. Now don’t be deluded and just educate yourself.

You’re correct about the E.U. Jimmy but our own ruling class don’t care about the majority of Irish people either. They govern in the interests of the capital owning class as evidenced in the Apple case and the catastrophic (for the majority) bank bailout.

What about sweetheart deals for indigenous business? If we encouraged an indigenous industry with some progressive policies we wouldn’t be so reliant on these free loaders…the likes of apple and google should be paying a full 12.5% tax just like Irish business had to

There should be no governing elites at all Mark. We should have democratic a society from the ground up in the communities and workplaces up to local and national government. The elected representatives would be paid the same average wage as the people they represent and with the principle of instant recall where they can be voted out of office at any time.

That is a little nonsensical Billy, you have to pay a bit extra for knowledge and experience. Otherwise, why would anyone even bother? You can already gain three to four times the salary in the private sector. I am all for lowering, however, some sanity is also needed in the narrative.

Jimmy Rustle

{ “has been” a great boost to our economy}

1st Glad to see you admit your wrong about who gets the 18bn

2nd Ireland isn’t a Tax haven Right ? MNC are here for the skills & education & EU access after all ??? Would Apple be in “Cork” even with 0% tax rate if it did not have full access to EU markets ? without EU access about as like as Apple been based in Moldova !

[ Zero Corporate Income Tax in Moldova https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2008/wp08203.pdf ]

As for your picking spuds comment that is simply to stupid to talk about!!… however you seem to think their was no problem with Ireland going cap in hand looking for a few crumbs from Steve Jobs table when every other company in Ireland had to pay 12.5% ??????? Indeed you seem to have no problem with 1 of the largest companies on the planet paying 0.05% corporate tax rate. If Irish companies got the same deal perhaps we wouldn’t have need to go on our knees to Apple in the 1st place.

EU isn’t calling on us to tax them more its calling on us to make them paid the same as the other Irish & MNC companies such the 1% rate that Facebook is crushed by !!! but is better than 0.05% in Apple case & 18bn the cash WILL BE a “great boost to our economy”.

Imagine that. The equivalent of a crisis management plan has been put in place by the Department of Finance ahead of the decision in the coming days.
But when it’s something happening in this country related to the little people like floods etc. They run around with their tails between their legs.

It’s quite possible Padraig. The AAA elected reps only take the average industrial wage from their TDs salary under this principle. The remainder is used to fund the party and the various campaigns such as the water charges (banker tax) battle we’re involved with here and abroad.

It is a 19 billion of our own money, the taxpayers that have given it to Apple illegally in the form of subsidies in effect.

Apple have to pay the legally owed tax just like the rest of us…..

It is crazy that our own government is fighting to prevent Apple paying their fair share of tax to Ireland…..while screwing all PAYE workers to the hilt

A disgrace

@ Jimmy.. I’m inclined to agree with you on this… Ireland won’t see a penny of this money anyway…

The Government has to defend itself. The allegation is that Apple were given unlawful state aid in the form of special tax arrangements. The government has always insisted that they have acted within the rules so a defence is inevitable.

Lovely Wally. Put Republic in inverted commas too. Sadly.

FF and FG are identical in their support of the tax avoidance sector in Ireland.

Billy, what happens when they no longer have the portion of their salary they “don’t” take? How will campaigns be funded? How will parties be funded? Also, how can you ask someone to take a job with no job security on the same salary as a very secure lower profile job? Whether a politician is doing the right thing or not it’s very likely that at any time enough people will disagree with them to vote them out. Take anyone in power in this country almost ever as an example

Pádraig, spot on. It’s all when and good to have an idealistic view of the way pay should work for politicians but the reality is that you want to attract the best. The stakes for a politician are higher and that should be reflected in pay. I agree that pay as it is is too high though. Although if we got rid of the bullshit expenses it would probably be more suitable

EU tax? this money would go straight to the exchequer, and then straight into the dail bar tab

The stupidest thing about this, this disgraceful gov don’t want them to pay their taxes.

Disgraceful politicians, overpaid, heaping tax after tax on the ordinary people, at the same time telling one of the richest companys in the world that they don’t want their tax money, whats due to the irish people!

They are not paying the 12.5% corporation tax rate, they are only paying around 2.5% on a fraction of what they should be paying because of the Double Irish deal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

The joke is on the Irish people and the American people while the tax structure promotes and facilitates the concentration of wealth in the hands of the super wealthy.

Rotten to the core

If Carlsberg did countries, it would be Ireland, what a great little country to do business (corruption )in.

Micheal Noonan thinks that this outstanding money owed belongs to him ……It belongs to all Irish citizens..His actions are complicity in a white collared crime and could be regarded as treason.

Its amazing what our government will fight Europe on. Saddle the citizens with debt for decades and give away our services and resources and they shrug their shoulders with the mantra “its the EU directive” but tax a corporation and its puff up the chest battle in the trenches time.

Right wing governments promoter right wing policies which right wing policies favour the tiny number supercell they at the expense of the many.

Never have so many made so few so wealthy.

Tax avoidance is the key instrument in super enriching the super wealthy.

There should have been a USC charged on companies.

Crushing austerity for the working class and infinite prosperity for the 1%. The Irish state has always been governed in the interests of domestic and international capital and at the expense of the majority of ordinary people. We have an illusion of democracy only.

@Peter King,maybe you can visit elderly patients on trollies in our hospitals and hand them fliers with ‘Support Minister Noonan & Help Apple Keep Their €19bn’. Only a brain dead sheep would repeat the empty rhetoric of ‘but they’ll all leave the country.’ Grow a pair.

And once those companies leave and the jobs are lost what will we do then?

Peter – by your reckoning we should just go a bribe others with tax piracy. However, that was not the question I posed to you, do you think it just and reasonable to tax earners up to almost 60%, but corporations perhaps 2%?

I’m pragmatic. Why do you think these companies came here in the first place? Each job they bring adds more in the local area. What do you think keeps them here? Our poor infrastructure and terrible broadband perhaps. Sure tax them what you want and watch them leave. Then find someone else to tax and keep going until this country is in a huge depression.

Peter,
The multinationals exist solely to maximize their profits and are doing us no favours in locating here.. They only operate in Ireland in order to exploit our workers, infrastructure and generous tax regime etc. It’s us who are bestowing favors on them and they’ll be gone as soon as another nation offers a sweeter deal as the Dell abdication to Poland shows.

The collective society bears the cost of providing the labour force for the multinationals and also its customers. We feed, clothe and care for our children, we build the schools and colleges, and employ the teachers to educate them, construct the hospitals and hire the medical staff to care for them etc until they reach adulthood. At this point the multinationals step in and cherry pick which people they choose to employ.

Capital only ever employs labour in order to exploit it to a greater or lesser degree. The sole objective of capitalist enterprise is the accumulation of profit and that profit is generated by the workers in the excess value they create over and above their wages. That is the essence of capitalism and it’s inherently exploitative.

Society builds the power stations and electricity networks and other utilities which feed the capitalists’ factories. We constructed the communications networks that they depend on and roads, ports and airports which transport their products. All private commercial activity ultimately depends on the human and infrastructural resources which society has created collectively. Capital does labour no favours. Precisely the opposite in fact. The working class bears the cost of providing the infrastructure and the next generation of workers both for capital to exploit.

So it’s the corporations who desperately need the working class both to produce and buy their productive output in order that that can accumulate profit. They need us, far far more than we need them.
The solution is to manage our economic activity with the objective of meeting human need (in the broadest sense) rather than for the purposes of accumulating profit into private hands as occurs under capitalism.

The reality is that there is more than enough real resources (land, energy labour etc) to provide everyone on the planet with proper nutrition, a decent home, healthcare, education and a job. It’s a political and ideological choice to deny people these basics.

Peter – and what about the pragmatism for small and medium Irish companies?

Correct me if wrong, but you are saying it is not just and reasonable, but it is necessary.

All companies operating here can avail of the same corporate tax rate.

Billy Mooney

And I though multinationals existed because people want Iphone’s, Flat screen TV’s, Nice Cars, cheap food, fuel & international travel etc.. still missing the USSR Wally.. :-)

Jeff,

The multinationals don’t really care about making anything useful for the masses. They care about accumulating profit and everything else is entirely incidental. If there’s money to be made in producing something entirely useless and trivial, then that’s what they’ll do. The tobacco industry for example profits from making an entirely useless, lethal and addictive poison. And the dominant sector of finance capitalism produces nothing of value and is entirely parasitic on the real of economy.

And it’s interesting that you mentioned the iPhone as all the component technologies which make the modern Smartphone possible such as GPS, the lithium ion battery, LCDs, touch screens, voice recognition software etc were developed through state funded research. Indeed the foundation technology of the Internet itself (TCP/IP) was not developed by private enterprise. It was created by the U.S Dept of defense and assorted other U.S government agencies and universities. After decades of research and development in the public sector, the powerful new communications technology was following market dogma handed over to the private sector to be exploited for profit.

Capitalism is now hugely parasitic on the public sector as even Bill Gates, the richest capitalist on the planet understands:

“Since World War II, U.S.-government R&D has defined the state of the art in almost every area,” Gates said. “The private sector is in general inept.”

http://usuncut.com/climate/bill-gates-only-socialism-can-save-us-from-climate-change/

Peter. It amazes me to hear people like yourself run the place down like this. As it is the govt here has given away our fishing rights, our oil and gas rights, and has us signed up to ttip which hopefully won’t go through. The reason we have such bad infrastructure etc is because we gave away our assets. If you stop a child from going to school and take away his parents would you expect them to be grand. It’s the same with the country. All these giveaways have resulted in our inability to do business in an honest manner. It’s a scandal that we have to rely on dodgy dealings from multinationals for a living.

Brian Hayes appears to have a difficulty with the words TAX HAVEN. Successive FF FG governments have put all the eggs in the FDI basket whilst ignoring the indigenous economy. In the words of John Moran, former Secretary General of Dept of Finance, Ireland cannot afford rural Ireland. Our people are being driven off the land, communities are being decimated and the Multinationals will be gone as soon as our three card trick corporate tax regime is brought to boot.

well unfortunately we are stuck with multinationals. What happens wally if we tax them normal like and they leave and loadsa people are unemployed. I work for one of them. Will the government employ me when they are gone ?

Dear Peter, they are paying very little by your own account, so we don’t need to find someone else to tax if they do a runner. Maybe they could pay just a bit more and not be so miserably greedy. We are still a very low corporate tax regime and then we stand accused of further ‘à la carte’/'pay what suits ya’ deals. We can do better without killing the golden goose but you dont even want to try. I suppose you think we should do nothing about the new inversion schemes which bring us no jobs and very little or no taxes. We need to be smart, clean up our act and collect some taxes from peple like Google, Apple and Facebook. It’s not necessarily a zero-sum game and if we play it like that we will lose.

I they had not paid their fair share of tax…:illegally by our own laws and tax codes.

Then they should pay it back, very simple.

Otherwise it is is the taxpayers giving them 19 billion of our own money. Whose side is our government on?

Bleed is dry with income taxes, just to give to Apple in the form of illegal tax breaks and subsidies…..because they are such a struggling company…….who make more in a single quarter than our entire tax take for a year

Well said ISBA Seamus Maye, similar to Wally’s post, (also well said) but shorter. To shorten it further – Corruption.

Wally / Billy

MNC “They care about accumulating profit and everything else is entirely incidental” very True.

However they only exist to meet a Need ? be Iphone or flat screen TV. Unless you can figure out a way to meet the people’s “need” now & in the future to be consumers. Then MNC are the most efficient & successful way of meet these needs ? After all not many Iphone’s in North Korean & USSR imploding had more to do with lack of fridges & blue jeans than NATO.

Simply unless a state controls the desires or outlaws certain “thoughts” your economic system can not work without mass repression of the people or at least of those that want a Iphone or sexy jeans. Leading to the type of events you had in East Germany when Easterners looking at what their neighbours had when given the opportunity rebelled at 1st opportunity & system imploded.

As Mao said who cares what colour the cat as long as it catches mice

Would you ban Iphone’s in your Ireland ?

So they tax the life out of the little people. They tell us our water infrastructure is falling apart.
They are going to spend taxpayers money to appeal on a corporation paying it’s taxes. They do as the EU says when it involves the little people. Unbelievable.

it’s quite amazing to think that the people of Limerick elect a man who knowingly and personally threatened families of thousands of women who had been poisoned by the state’s dodgy production of anti-d, and the way he personally pushed his officials to beat down the family of one of those women who died. To allow such an odious individual the capacity to sign over billions of corrupt bank debts to the public plate pales in significance. People of Limerick, you should hang your head in shame.

Where is the appeal against Ireland’s exemption on water charges?

There has to be grounds for an appeal. Can you point out what grounds for appeal do we have over water charges?

….VRT. and the consideration that they are about to equalize Petrol & Diesel by increasing the cost of diesel. Costing the average family diesel motorist 600.00 additional per year.

1. It is not established practice
2. As the same Commission has said it failed to be independent as it is not self financing, it has never been a financial model in Ireland.
3. The commissions own statements from 2009 and 2011 which confirm the exemption
4. The upcoming waterways plan (I can’t remember its name) due in 2017 which is required to establish future framework

The fact that after 4 years of listening to Phil Hogan, our rep on the commission, they are now sounding like his PR company should also be enough for any thinking person to question their motives.

Grounds for an appeal kal
oh they are grounds , eamon has listed them.
Tell me kal when the EU approved and signed off on the river basin management plan.
Until they do or derogation is still in place.

Our derogation is included in the first Irish River Basin Management Plan (RBMP) 2008-2015. This was supposed to be a 7 year plan but Ireland is behind schedule. The next Irish River Basin Management Plan was supposed to come out this year for the period of 2016-2021, however, there is a delay and it may not come out until 2017.

@Alien I live in Limerick and never voted for him or Fianna Gael. He is Fianna Gael and the well off in Limerick vote for him not us the ordinary people struggling day to day.

You don’t spend windfalls on daily expenses. You spend it on debt repayments or strategic investments.

Newsflash Bob.. We ARE a tax haven, just look at the extra €283 million we had to pay to the EU because of companies moving over here last year alone, with no jobs being created.

it’s wise than that… we are a dodgy tax haven. companies that transfer money through Ireland only do so with non transparent private agreements with politicians. Other de facto tax havens are at least open about what they do, we hide it behind “sweetheart” deals.