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"We're on our knees and begging" - motorists being driven off the road by insurance costs, committee hears

The Oireachtas Finance committee today heard from the AA together with groups representing both older and younger drivers.

11/11/2015. Traffic Accidents on M50 Motorways Eamonn Farrell Eamonn Farrell

IRELAND’S SPIRALLING MOTOR insurance costs were the subject of this morning’s meeting of the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform at Leinster House.

Speaking in front of the committee were Conor Faughnan of the AA, Kian Griffin of young drivers action group Ireland Underground, and Justin Moran of Age Action Ireland.

In the last year, more than a third of Irish drivers have seen their insurance rise by up to 50%, with people consequently driving with reduced levels of insurance in an attempt to manage costs.

Faughnan kicked off matters at today’s meeting by saying that rising insurance costs “is the single most important issue facing our members”.

“Competition should be being encouraged by the rising costs being seen, but that isn’t happening. Foreign insurers are in active retreat.”

That is a deeply, deeply unhealthy sign.

Faughnan said the main reason foreign insurers are so uninterested in the Irish situation is attributable to both the failure of Setanta Insurance (Ireland’s other insurers having being held liable for that insurer’s outstanding claims), but also to “murky data”, or “no clear information around claims costs” here.

Younger Drivers

Kian Griffin of Ireland Underground, a group representing Ireland’s younger drivers, said that insurance costs have young drivers feeling “as if they’re besieged on all fronts by a sense of hopelessness”.

“We’re on our knees and begging at this stage,” he said. “We don’t know where else to turn.”

If it was the saying in recent times that we need to keep the recovery going, I think I can speak for Ireland’s younger drivers when I say I haven’t experienced any recovery.

faughnan Conor Faughnan of the AA

Justin Moran, head of advocacy with Age Action, meanwhile said that older drivers are likewise being affected by “astonishing increases” in their premiums.

“22% of Ireland’s driving licences are held by those aged over 70, yet they account for just 9% of our penalty points,” he said. “Yet many older drivers are struggling to keep their cars on the road.”

For older people, being able to drive is synonymous with independence. But for many, it is an absolute necessity and is the difference between living in the community or being forced into residential care.

Solutions

The three people appearing before the committee came armed with a number of solutions to the spiralling costs being seen.

For Faughnan, there are a number of initiatives the Oireachtas could take to address the problem:

  • Update the Book of Quantum, the guide book for levels of compensation in Ireland. Drafted in 2004, it hasn’t been updated since. “There is a new draft due next month,” said Faughnan. “At present it’s hopelessly out of date and effectively useless. With the update, the courts must also be bound to abide by it.”

Faughnan cited a recent case he was made aware of where a plaintiff driver was looking for a claim payout of €150. The insurance company was only willing to pay €60. When the case went to court the judge in question awarded a claim of €508. “When an insurance company sees this they immediately know they have to refix their premiums across the board,” said Faughnan.

“Courts have to be persuaded to adhere to the Book of Quantum,” he said.

Otherwise people will continue to go to court because they feel they will do better there.

He added that he would agree that claims costs are going up, but that “we can’t tell for certain”.

Other suggestions Faughnan made include:

  • Introduce Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) for gardaí here – “It’s standard around the world and a key way to combat fraud, yet we’re dependent on a paper disc which is worse than useless.”
  • Collate an underlying database of insurance information – “The companies have this information, they just have to finish compiling it. And they have to share information with the public.”
  • Have the Minister for Justice fix a discount rate for claims. That rate was at one stage 3% but has stood at 1% following the precedent of the Gill Russell vs HSE case of 2014, which saw the presiding judge fix the rate to 1%.
  • Act upon the Setanta Insurance debacle, which is seeing Ireland’s other insurers liable for the failure of that company to the tune of €90 million – “Foreign companies are seeing that if they want to trade here they have to guarantee competitors against their failures – you don’t see McDonald’s and Burger King bailing each other out. These companies are willing to trade here but they won’t until the Setanta issue is fixed.”

“Out of hand”

Kian Kian Griffin of Ireland Underground

“Over the last 12 months the situation has gotten out of hand,” said Griffin. “And there has been a 17% increase in accidents involving uninsured drivers as a result.”

He said that premiums are increasing for young drivers regardless of whether they were making claims or having accidents.

“The people I’m speaking to see it as pure profiteering by the companies,” he said. “I have no issue with companies increasing premiums to counteract claims. My issue is when it is done to the cost of the motorist.”

We need to aid those companies to bring their costs down so they can stay profitable but not at the expense of the driver.

Griffin’s suggestions include:

  • Bring compensation in line with EU averages
  • Force the courts to adhere to the updated Book of Quantum rather than just referring to it
  • Increase the powers of the Injuries Board. Many cases which appear before the board are then referred to the courts due to its lack of binding powers.
  • Force insurers to cover older cars which have a valid NCT certificate. Many insurers currently refuse to cover a car which is over ten years old
  • Have a breakdown in premium cost presented when that premium is offered to encourage consistency in pricing

Regarding the last point, Griffin says the insurance industry is against it as “it’s anti-competition”.

I would make the argument that if everyone discloses, well, then it’s a level playing field for all.

Griffin said that the fact some insurers won’t cover older cars “is a bit of a nuisance”.

“I’m driving a 15-year-old car. I can’t afford to shop around. I know very few younger drivers who can afford a newer car,” he said.

Moran Justin Moran, Age Action

When asked by committee chairman John McGuinness of Fianna Fáil what his feedback was like from insurers, Griffin replied that he had seen “very little” feedback.

“Do they see you as a nuisance?” McGuinness asked. “Pretty much,” replied Griffin.

Age Action

From the point of view of older drivers, Moran raised a number of instances of such drivers experiencing enormous premium increases despite “never having had an accident or making a claim”.

One such example saw Frank, a 70-year-old from Dundalk, recently face a 68% increase in his premium despite never having claimed.

“Some of the premiums quoted to our members come to twice the weekly pension and many older drivers are struggling to keep their cars on the road,” he said.

In large parts of Ireland, particularly outside the main urban centres, public transport is poor.
Older people who are unable to drive face increased social isolation and must rely on friends or family for transport.

Moran argued that pensioners are only involved in a tiny percentage of accidents that cause injury.

“Just yesterday a report from Swansea University in Britain found that drivers aged 70 are involved in three-to-four times fewer accidents than 17-to-21-year-old men.”

Read: What on earth is going on with motor insurance premiums in Ireland?

Read: Motorists paying an extra €250 per year over spiralling insurance costs

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106 Comments
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    Mute Paul Garvey
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    Feb 10th 2019, 8:36 PM

    Says Labour now ..happy to keep quiet when they were voting all these policies in . There was no moral compass then .

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    Mute Nosmo King
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:38 PM

    It was Frankfurt’s way.

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    Mute TamuMassif2019
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    Feb 11th 2019, 1:58 AM

    @Paul Garvey: In government they become the Hulk, outside of it they are Dr. Jekyll…

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    Mute ForeverFeel1ng
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    Feb 11th 2019, 5:01 PM

    @Paul Garvey: Have to have a bit of perspective, we were at serious risk of default and every single penny of peoples savings in every bank dissappearing. They didn’t do great but they tried.

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    Mute Willy Mc Caul
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    Feb 10th 2019, 8:32 PM

    Liebour hanging out all the dirty laundry from their betrayal of their core vote during their trough seeking time with the blueshirts…

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    Mute dick dastardly
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    Feb 10th 2019, 8:46 PM

    Jobspath was nothing but a scourge on society.forcing people onto schemes that everybody knew was a dead end,all to massage the figures and make it look like austerity was working here

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    Mute TamuMassif2019
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    Feb 11th 2019, 2:01 AM

    @dick dastardly: All austerity does is kills the foundation for jobs, what austerity does is destroys jobs, destroys manufacturing and destroys the movement of money… Those so called EXPERTS should have known that?

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    Mute Shelly Levine
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    Feb 10th 2019, 8:52 PM

    Labour? Do we have a labour party?

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    Mute tommytukamomo
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    Feb 10th 2019, 8:58 PM

    @Shelly Levine: not for the next 50 years we won’t.

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    Mute Patricia Mcnamara
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:09 PM

    @Shelly Levine: lol.

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    Mute @mdmak33
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:52 PM

    The labour party rammed it through and listened to no one,they treated people like animals and no try to blame someone else,never forgive them.

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    Mute TamuMassif2019
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    Feb 11th 2019, 2:08 AM

    @@mdmak33: I would think that the IMF had a hand in this by selecting the companies for the Job Path scheme. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did?

    16
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    Mute Dave Barrett
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    Feb 10th 2019, 8:56 PM

    Job path where they make you lie on yr cv. Very profitable for some private co.

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    Mute Michael Lynch
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    Feb 10th 2019, 8:59 PM

    @Dave Barrett: Seetec refer to it as “tailoring” your CV to suit the job that’s applied for.

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    Mute Dave Barrett
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:04 PM

    @Michael Lynch: thats so that they get paid for every one that comes through their doors. Crooked feckers.

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    Mute TamuMassif2019
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    Feb 11th 2019, 2:04 AM

    @Dave Barrett: If you couldn’t get a job they blamed you for that as it was never their fault. And they were never happy for people to job search at HOME, it drove them crazy…

    29
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    Mute Martin Brennan
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:38 PM

    A bit late to cry wolf – Labour screwed the workers when in power with FG and enriched their Union buddies with cushy earners on state boards

    142
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    Mute TamuMassif2019
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    Feb 11th 2019, 2:11 AM

    @Martin Brennan: Better to ask for forgiveness than for permission?

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    Mute Dan public
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    Feb 10th 2019, 8:44 PM

    Everyone else’s fault

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    Mute Gary Nolan
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    Feb 11th 2019, 8:30 AM

    @Dan public: Fine Gael parody bot.

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    Mute Barry O Toole
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    Feb 10th 2019, 8:49 PM

    Labour made me buy an expensive phone

    91
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    Mute Patricia Mcnamara
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:13 PM

    @Barry O Toole: ?? Explain.

    12
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    Mute tommytukamomo
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:44 PM

    @Patricia Mcnamara: iPhone joan…

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    Mute Patricia Mcnamara
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:55 PM

    @tommytukamomo: oh thanks

    6
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    Mute Barry O Toole
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    Feb 10th 2019, 10:41 PM

    @Patricia Mcnamara: labour trying to blame everybody else for the decisions they made in govt patricia

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    Mute TamuMassif2019
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    Feb 11th 2019, 2:09 AM

    @Barry O Toole: If you can buy one for over 600 euros each year then you can pay your water bill, remember that lol.

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    Mute Ger Fleming
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    Feb 10th 2019, 10:00 PM

    Labour party became right wing when they agreed to this. Joan backed it to the hilt as did Howlin. Time to take your punishment. Labour are a useless gang of mot and with that clown in Tipp thinking he should be the leader. Remember Irish water

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    Mute Karl Curtin
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    Feb 10th 2019, 8:41 PM

    Well, that changes everything….sigh

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    Mute Patricia Mcnamara
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:12 PM

    @Karl Curtin: I feel your pain. Hell what am I saying, Ireland feels your.pain
    Labor has become a dirty word.

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    Mute Karl Curtin
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:36 PM

    @Patricia Mcnamara: listening to Velvet Underground – Pale Blue Eyes
    …feck them..life is alright…stay happy people!!

    19
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    Mute Dave Byrne
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    Feb 10th 2019, 10:50 PM

    I remember being down in Kilarney in 2015 for a league match,And these buckos had their conference in the Glenn Eagles.
    The amount of Gardai around the hotel not including all the fences around the hotel you swear it was a G8 summit.
    They had a total disregard for the Irish people some of their party members looked on in disgust as we questioned them about the water charges.

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    Mute Patricia Mcnamara
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:09 PM

    Pass the buck. That is labor’s best move.

    67
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    Mute Jaci Black
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    Feb 10th 2019, 10:59 PM

    What a terrible scheme, inflicted by our government, making the long term unemployed who want to work and want to be retrained and educated.

    If your life long occupation is construction and there are no relevant jobs available, they push you to apply for low paying, no contract dead end jobs. Retail, customer service, hospitality and cleaning. It is all in their brochure. There are no career development choices, no training, nothing. The tax payer pays for this inadequate service.

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    Mute GorillaGrower
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:10 PM

    €149 million euro !! Honest to Jesus what a f king scam .

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    Mute Cormac Ó Braonáin
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    Feb 10th 2019, 10:17 PM

    @GorillaGrower: with no external evaluation of the service since it started. Fking Blueshirts!

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    Mute Unitedpeople
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    Feb 11th 2019, 11:59 AM

    @GorillaGrower: Now €170 Million+ and still growing.

    12
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    Mute Jim Hartnett
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:46 PM

    More spinning than a spinner. Labour should be made to hang their heads in shame at what they have been up to and how they can defend it. Then we find that Howling has been lobbying tobacco firms.

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    Mute Adrian
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:54 PM

    Ha. The gov lost the vote to end it. So they’ll partly end it in 12 months time and fully end it in 2021.

    39
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    Mute Mark Plunkett
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    Feb 11th 2019, 12:19 AM

    Traitors the lot of them,Larkin would be spinning in his grave by now.

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    Mute thephantomshit
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:15 PM

    Why not just cut the dole after 12 months – job done.

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    Mute Tomás Ó Tnúthail
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:38 PM

    @thephantomshit: so someone say 62 who’s paid tax all their lives and probably is unlikely to get a job so close to retirement should have dole cut, cos thats the popular pile of brown stuff to say online……bravo on that useless and generalized idea

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    Mute Jim Hartnett
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:47 PM

    @thephantomshit: Why don’t we just shoot them and feed them to the hungry?

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    Mute GorillaGrower
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    Feb 10th 2019, 10:07 PM

    @thephantomshit: Yeah we should bring back the tenements

    35
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    Mute TamuMassif2019
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    Feb 11th 2019, 2:18 AM

    @thephantomshit: http://web.archive.org/web/20120711071849/http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/1/0607121657-croke-parkto-host-asia-pacific-ireland-business-forum/
    “The forum has since paid special attention on informing Irish businesses about opportunities in Asia.” Buy buy Irish jobs…
    https://web.archive.org/web/20170705024837/https://www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/speeches/speeches-archive/2015/july/min-urges-businesses-to-seek-asia-opportunities/
    “At the Foreign Affairs Council in Luxemburg of the 22nd of June last, we discussed relations between the EU and Asia, considering issues such as how to enhance connectivity and trade. Connectivity is, I believe, key to the next stage of development in the Asian region.” Send Irish jobs to Asia.
    Then wonder why there is unemployment here???

    14
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    Mute tommytukamomo
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    Feb 10th 2019, 8:56 PM

    What a load of absolute and utter b***ox coming from that political reject.
    He and his fellow swine were happy enough to join the snouts at trough.
    The only way labour will ever have a scrap of credibility will be when political freeloaders like this clown are extinct.

    156
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    Mute Dave Doyle
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    Feb 11th 2019, 5:55 AM

    The Trokia never dictated policy on any issue. Be it how austerity was to be achieved or this Jobpath. The Trokia told the government the bottom line that was to be achieved, nothing else. It was entirely up to the government how that bottom line was to be achieved. They choose where to apply the measures, made the policies, blaming the Trokia was lies. But that’s what FG, FF and Liebour do best.

    29
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    Mute Unitedpeople
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    Feb 11th 2019, 9:17 AM

    @Dave Doyle:

    For the record, the troika incorporated job activation measures in the “Memorandum of Understanding” that was agreed and signed by a previous Fianna Fail and Green party. It’s there in the text for all to see.

    However, when FG and Labour got in (especially them), they took that ‘ball’ and run amock with it. They made it far worse, turned a blind eye to victims, aided breaking of national and international laws by action, inaction, convenient timely deafness or silence.

    Labour and every party that each hand their hand in this whole abusive scandal, should be ashamed. The majority of the people of Ireland in fact, have not heard the full scale of the antics that has gone (and continues to as of date, it’s still in operation).

    JobPath is a national inquiry in the making – right now.

    20
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    Mute Gallery and Museum Staff in Ireland
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    Feb 10th 2019, 11:29 PM

    The Troika told Labour to set up Jobpath! This narrative borders more and more on the fantastic. Reich IV would never micro manage a sovereign state. Would they?

    25
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    Mute Ned O Mahony
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    Feb 11th 2019, 9:05 AM

    Pressure from the Troika did not make them sort out the Legal profession

    16
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    Mute Terry Tibbs
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    Feb 11th 2019, 2:32 AM

    If forced to do it why with such gusto?

    14
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    Mute William Kelly
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    Feb 11th 2019, 6:54 AM

    Work for welfare, welfare for work needs to be the policy & practice for long term unemployment for persons who cannot be recruited, or are not engaged, in the normal employment market, whether by lack of education, skills, or inclination.
    There are plenty of public works needing improved attention, which would both improve the environment, & maintain a work ethic & discipline in those left outside the normal wage earning economy. Even 20 hours per week & e15 ph , plus dependants allowances, would also be better than basic dole, diminish the scourge of idleness, & build up self respect.

    13
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    Mute Ronan Sexton
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    Feb 11th 2019, 9:07 AM

    @William Kelly: They have that already, CE schemes. Nothing at all wrong with them, got me out of a rut before.

    13
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    Mute Aine O Connor
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    Feb 11th 2019, 12:02 PM

    @William Kelly:
    There is a Community Employment Scheme in every Parish in Ireland for the last 30 years. Voluntary Organizations sponsor these schemes and they provide work experience for people to give them a start and they also provide training. Sponsors included Tidy Towns , Gaa, and Soccer Clubs, Community Crèches and Day Care Centre’s for Elderly, County Councils, Residents Associations, Services for the Disabled, etc. In fact they are carrying out do much valuable that a lot of the jobs that people are doing on Schemes should be converted into permanent jobs.

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    Mute Aine O Connor
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    Feb 11th 2019, 12:03 PM

    @Aine O Connor:
    So much valuable work.

    1
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    Mute Unitedpeople
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    Feb 11th 2019, 8:35 AM

    Labour have a hard bloody neck.

    They said nothing – they did nothing in opposition to the Troika.
    Labour, lock, stock and sick barrel, went along with it all.
    Hell, even worse – Joan Burton lead the ruddy charge and made it worse!
    All in Labour – including useless Drogheda Ged Nash – went along with this too, saying and doing nothing in objection. They all just went along with it all and back their party in doing so, 100%.

    They said nothing for 3+ years of attempted suicides, mass bullying, illegal stealing by the state (admitted in the Dublin highcourt), abuse of human rights (found guilty of in the Dublin Highcourts, turned their eye to private company exploiting people for mass €170+ Million gain and possible signature commercial fraud. Labour said NOTHING about all this and more.

    Now they are trying to escape blame.
    “I was only following orders” Huh?

    Labour, go away and close down.
    Your party betrayed a nation. History will record this.
    Larkin and Connelly are rolling in their grave.

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    Mute Michael Lynch
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    Feb 10th 2019, 8:56 PM

    What a crock of complete sh!te.

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    Mute Patricia Mcnamara
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    Feb 10th 2019, 9:57 PM

    @Michael Lynch: don’t talk about yourself like.that

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    Mute Unitedpeople
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    Feb 11th 2019, 11:22 AM

    170 million now. Still growing.

    7
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    Mute Paul Byrne
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    Feb 11th 2019, 5:21 PM

    Lier sumbag party

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    Mute Billy Nomates
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    Feb 11th 2019, 11:14 PM

    Get rid of this and bring back Jobbridge

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